War in Europe

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cricketfieldclarets
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War in Europe

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:00 pm

Have friends in Montenegro who mentioned for weeks they sense trouble is brewing. And some new laws have just been passed in which may mean serb / orthodox church is stripped of its land and assets.

Obviously an area thats had plenty of issues with territory and religion.

Why do politics and religion have to cause so many issues? Now been a lot of protests, arrests and skirmishes in last couple of days and friends expecting its going to get a lot worse with bloodshed.

Two countries that have made huge progress since the 90s and have been at peace with each other and neighbours pretty much since the kosovo conflict. Especially the younger generations. Even the serbia and montenegro seperation was peaceful and diplomatic.

Hope it gets sorted amicably. But with religion, politics and land it rarely does.

Beautiful countries that dont need to revisit previous wars.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:17 pm

It is neither religion or politics it is GREED of a person or persons that is manipulating religion and politics - always at the bottom of everything of this nature

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Re: War in Europe

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:19 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:17 pm
It is neither religion or politics it is GREED of a person or persons that is manipulating religion and politics - always at the bottom of everything of this nature
Yep true. With religion often an easy excuse.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by thatdberight » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:20 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:00 pm
... And some new laws have just been passed in which may mean serb / orthodox church is stripped of its land and assets.
Anyone framing it in those terms is so one-sided, they're probably not a rational source in terms of explaining it.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:22 pm

thatdberight wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:20 pm
Anyone framing it in those terms is so one-sided, they're probably not a rational source in terms of explaining it.
That would be the church...
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Re: War in Europe

Post by thatdberight » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:24 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:22 pm
That would be the church...
Yes. That would be them. They're not the C of E.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by thatdberight » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:26 pm

If we're just quoting "they would say that" comments...

"President Milo Djukanovic, who has backed "renewal" of the republic's independent Church, said earlier this year that there was no intention to remove any property from anyone."

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Re: War in Europe

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:31 pm

thatdberight wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:24 pm
Yes. That would be them. They're not the C of E.
To be honest. The lads i know just want to live in a peaceful, progressive society. Both the serbs and montenegrins. And thats how its been for a long time now. Theyre not interested in religion, race, politics etc although all do have huge national pride. Such a shame if this kicks off more than it has.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:43 pm

Hes also said that tje government are trying to divide everyone. There are lots or serbs living in montenegro (peacefuly) who are now turning on the church because theyre first and foremost serbs and vice versa some turning on the government because theyre orthodox before country.

It seems theyre trying to cause as much confusion and contempt as possible knowing how passionate many are about their national identity and or religion.

Sad to see.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by thatdberight » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:27 pm

Two of the 'lawmakers' arrested for standing up for the church were among those who were convicted of being part of a Russia-backed coup attempt in 2016. No surprise; the same church intervened in 2016 to back the demands of Russian clerics and politicians to try and derail Montenegro joining NATO.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by Spiral » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:43 pm

Don't know much about Orthodox Christianity, but would I be right in presuming that in the way power in Catholicism resides in the Vatican, power in Orthodox Christianity resides in Russia, or is Orthodox Christianity a bit more ascetic and de-centralised than that? I know a lot of Greeks practice Orthodox Christianity, but I don't know where the centre of gravity is.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by tarkys_ears » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:55 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:00 pm
Why do politics and religion have to cause so many issues?
Because war is all about power and money and brainwashing people with politics and (mainly) religion is the tool used for getting people to fight on your behalf.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by thatdberight » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:07 am

Spiral wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:43 pm
Don't know much about Orthodox Christianity, but would I be right in presuming that in the way power in Catholicism resides in the Vatican, power in Orthodox Christianity resides in Russia, or is Orthodox Christianity a bit more ascetic and de-centralised than that? I know a lot of Greeks practice Orthodox Christianity, but I don't know where the centre of gravity is.
Different set up without any titular head equivalent to the Pope but I think one of the Greek branches is sort of the presiding juror.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:08 am

The Balkans are always going to be a mess,

It's happened here with enclaves in cities and towns. You will mix! But we don't you sandal wearing mental patient's.

The mixture of races in the Balkans has happened naturally over time, not like here.
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Re: War in Europe

Post by ClaretAndJew » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:13 am

Blow us all the **** up and get it done asap.
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Re: War in Europe

Post by Spiral » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:16 am

tarkys_ears wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:55 pm
Because war is all about power and money and brainwashing people with politics and (mainly) religion is the tool used for getting people to fight on your behalf.
There was a time when I might have thought that, but in all honesty I'm becoming more and more convinced that terrorists, crusaders, or whatever you might call them, aren't quite as cynical as that. I think they act on simpler impulses, even at the upper echelons of religious leadership. It's religion and religious purity that drives such people, not power. There are plenty of ways of dominating people, annexing land, stealing wealth, becoming powerful and prosperous on the backs of others (*nervously tugs collar as a Brit*) without attempting genocide as done by religiously motivated people throughout history, far and recent. There are still ways of exercising even domestic power and control without invoking religion. So I'm becoming less and less convinced that it's a means to an end. Religious fanatics are, plain and simply, simple b@stards.
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Re: War in Europe

Post by Tricky Trevor » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:17 am

The whole of Europe and the USA are going more right wing extreme. When that happens war inevitably follows.
I told our kid at the start of the Brexit debacle there will be war in Europe within 20 years, sadly it could be less.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by thatdberight » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:23 am

Tricky Trevor wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:17 am
The whole of Europe and the USA are going more right wing extreme. When that happens war inevitably follows.
I told our kid at the start of the Brexit debacle there will be war in Europe within 20 years, sadly it could be less.
I disagree with your analysis and rationale but, just on past history, that's probably a pretty good bet.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by Right_winger » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:46 am

Religion is all the same really, made up nonsense to control large swathes of people. It’s like Santa Claus for adults.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by FCBurnley » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:54 am

Thought they already used it ? Oops sorry thought you said Var 😂
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Re: War in Europe

Post by tim_noone » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:02 am

FCBurnley wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:54 am
Thought they already used it ? Oops sorry thought you said Var 😂
8-)

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Re: War in Europe

Post by Spiral » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:27 am

Right_winger wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:46 am
Religion is all the same really, made up nonsense to control large swathes of people. It’s like Santa Claus for adults.
I'm as Godless and irreligious as they come, but is it not that the will to dominate will eventually manifest if a person with those means to do so is callous enough, or lacking in conscience, regardless of the perceived authority, philosophical or divine, that inspires such a person or group, or the language used to motivate and actuate their 'acolytes'? Look at China: an atheist state, and as domineering as anywhere on the face of the earth. People will inevitably attempt to dominate because it's a facet of humanity, and perhaps religion has been used, and continues to be used as a rallying cry, but that isn't to say it has no value to people, or that its sole use is to be a force to dominate. Some of the most kind-hearted people I've ever known are religious, and they bow to no mortal authority beyond that which is designed and agreed upon to keep folk civil. Is being nice to your neighbour a religious ideal or a humanitarian one? Does the answer even matter if everyone is happy and being nice to one another?
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Re: War in Europe

Post by bfcmik » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:17 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:43 pm
Hes also said that tje government are trying to divide everyone.
But isn't that what our own right-wingers, inside and outside the Tory party have been trying to do for half a century? Blame everything on the immigrants, whether they are here legally or not. Whether they are white Europeans or of Asian or African descent almost all the ills of modern society have been laid at their door with all the other ills being blamed on people claiming benefits - it can never be the fault of the greedy b£££££ds who are sucking the wealth from the nation.
Spiral wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:27 am
Look at China: an atheist state, and as domineering as anywhere on the face of the earth.
The way communism has been enacted in China, and Russia before it, was as a state religion. People are forced to believe in the tenets of the Party whatever deprivations that are forced to suffer "for the good of the people"!

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Re: War in Europe

Post by Stayingup » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:41 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:17 am
The whole of Europe and the USA are going more right wing extreme. When that happens war inevitably follows.
I told our kid at the start of the Brexit debacle there will be war in Europe within 20 years, sadly it could be less.
So its Brexits fault there 'may' still be tension in tge Balkans.

Did you know that socialism / communism ALWAYS leads to suppression, depression and conflict. Fact.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by Tricky Trevor » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:31 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:41 pm
So its Brexits fault there 'may' still be tension in tge Balkans.

Did you know that socialism / communism ALWAYS leads to suppression, depression and conflict. Fact.
Nothing to do with brexit per se, although the loony swing to the right has.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:32 pm

Don’t forget, one of Labours think tank ideas in the UK was to land grab all the land houses were built on and then make house holders pay leasehold payments to the government.
They also were going to grab all private schools and bring them and their assets into public control.

Not surprised it’s happening elsewhere.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:36 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:31 pm
Nothing to do with brexit per se, although the loony swing to the right has.

Perhaps the UK loony lefts ideas of lands grabs dented their election hopes

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Re: War in Europe

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:27 pm

Red Star Belgrade Basketball team have refused to board a plane bound for Podgorica for a game with Montenegrin side Budcnost because there were no guarantees around safety.

Basketball is hugely popular in The Balkans.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:32 am

2 friends text. One saying he expects civil war is about to start, not much on the news outside of their country but Montenegrin flag was set on fire in Belgrade today and he thinks Nato are going to intervene.

Other friend saying he wants to leave the country because it is not what he or the normal citizens agree with or believe in.

Also expects Russia are going to get involved on Serbian side.

Hope it gets sorted.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by thatdberight » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:18 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:32 am
2 friends text. One saying he expects civil war is about to start, not much on the news outside of their country but Montenegrin flag was set on fire in Belgrade today and he thinks Nato are going to intervene.

Other friend saying he wants to leave the country because it is not what he or the normal citizens agree with or believe in.

Also expects Russia are going to get involved on Serbian side.

Hope it gets sorted.
These are new states and a significant proportion of the 'Serbian' population of Montenegro has never stopped seeing a reunion of a greater Serbia as the next step.

I'm sure Russia is looking for a pretext to get involved in some way in a number of the weaker European states - Moldova would be another one. Serbia might just be the stooges who pave the way for them in Montenegro.

Just for some balance to what your friends are telling you - their personal feelings are genuine I'm sure but here's a cross-Balkan group of people of some standing making their view known;
https://www.rferl.org/a/open-letter-ser ... 57616.html

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Re: War in Europe

Post by Colburn_Claret » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:14 am

Went to Kotor in Montenegro 2 years ago. Lovely place, lovely people. In Croatia you could easily see that old tensions had never been forgotten, they talked about Bosnians as if they were ****. Yet Montenegrians were proud of the way their country was all inclusive of any of the people of old Yugoslavia, it seemed the least likely place in that region for something like this to occur.
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Re: War in Europe

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:15 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:14 am
Went to Kotor in Montenegro 2 years ago. Lovely place, lovely people. In Croatia you could easily see that old tensions had never been forgotten, they talked about Bosnians as if they were ****. Yet Montenegrians were proud of the way their country was all inclusive of any of the people of old Yugoslavia, it seemed the least likely place in that region for something like this to occur.
Couldnt agree more.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:17 am

thatdberight wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:18 am
These are new states and a significant proportion of the 'Serbian' population of Montenegro has never stopped seeing a reunion of a greater Serbia as the next step.

I'm sure Russia is looking for a pretext to get involved in some way in a number of the weaker European states - Moldova would be another one. Serbia might just be the stooges who pave the way for them in Montenegro.

Just for some balance to what your friends are telling you - their personal feelings are genuine I'm sure but here's a cross-Balkan group of people of some standing making their view known;
https://www.rferl.org/a/open-letter-ser ... 57616.html
Dont disagree.

But Some of the friends we have on the other side of the border (including one who is very good friends with those in montenegro and has family and property there) has a different view and blames it on montenegro 'changing what they want'.* when he says montenegro he means the political groups.

I suspect its all propoganda trying to fuel nationalism on both sides.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by thatdberight » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:14 am
Went to Kotor in Montenegro 2 years ago. Lovely place, lovely people. In Croatia you could easily see that old tensions had never been forgotten, they talked about Bosnians as if they were ****. Yet Montenegrians were proud of the way their country was all inclusive of any of the people of old Yugoslavia, it seemed the least likely place in that region for something like this to occur.
Travelled through it a few times. Met a mix of people of course with different views. The single largest group were strident young male 'Serbs' (Montenegrins actually but they defined themselves by ethnicity not country) who wanted to see a greater Serbia tied to a greater Slavic homeland led by Vladimir of course. It seemed to me the most fragile of the ex-Yugoslav states which all have different issues.

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Re: War in Europe

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:47 pm

Whats worse than a balkans war?

Moving to Burnley :lol:
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