EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

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warksclaret
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EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by warksclaret » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:00 pm

Having watched the Merseyside cup tie today, I was so impressed with so many of the Liverpool yougsters playing and beating a pretty much full strength Everton team. You can't tell me there is not a defensive central midfielder in either the Liverpool, Man City, Man Utd team that right now could not get into our team, shield the back four and support either Cork, Westwood or Hendrick, and act as cover in the event of injury, fatigue or suspensions. And I am sure Klopp, Pep, Solksjar etc would give their right arm for these guys to gain PL experience. It also saves Garlick getting his cheque book out. We seem to have an immense back room team now at Burnley. Do you think its entered their minds to look at this option-for god's sake our PL survival is at risk right now

I can remember working at the NEC and travelling up from Birmingham for an evening cup tie v Spurs on a Tuesdday night. A certain Mr Cahill had been signed up on the weekend and went straight into the team v the mighty Spurs. He kept his place all season. Probably the best centre half I have seen in a Burnley shirt in the last 20 years

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:02 pm

There is no way on gods green earth that Pep or Klopp would their young players coming to the turf to have football coached out of them

Can picture it now

Pep : so did you learn a lot at Burnley
Young Player : yeah...i can now watch the ball go over my head. Also I can kick a ball 100 yards
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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Blackrod » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:05 pm

The recent ‘loan market’ makes me think of :

Bamford
Chalobah
Drinkwater

No more like that please.
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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by BOYSIE31 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:09 pm

Dyche would not put any youngster from Liverpool in the team in front of experienced pros for a relegation fight unfortunately - but yes some cracking young players they have who may get loaned out

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by warksclaret » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:11 pm

Sorry but the last two on the list were SD's choice-he had worked with both at Watford. I was thinking more youngsters than Drinkwater at 29. Imagine a team having loaned Foden two or three years ago. Last year Wigan had Jones the Chelsea right back on loan.Loans can work-for me Cork when he first joined us from Chelsea 10 years ago was sensational

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by randomclaret2 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:13 pm

We cant afford Premier League Players
We dont try to sign inexpensive European players
We wont give Loan players a chance
Were just going to cross our fingers and hope things improve

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Right_winger » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:58 pm

Dyche is the wrong man to develop younger player or indeed play them. He is a footballing dinosaur who prefers older cloggers who work hard.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by warksclaret » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:02 pm

So why has Dwight been given a chance and started virtually every game in the last 12 months
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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by FactualFrank » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:07 pm

warksclaret wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:02 pm
So why has Dwight been given a chance and started virtually every game in the last 12 months
He was given a chance as he was our only option.
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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by burnleymik » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:07 pm

Right_winger wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:58 pm
Dyche is the wrong man to develop younger player or indeed play them. He is a footballing dinosaur who prefers older cloggers who work hard.
Not sure about this. Dwight has come on leaps and bounds over the last year or so.

I do agree, in a roundabout way, that he prefers his journeymen, but I don't agree he refuses to develop younger talent.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Dark Cloud » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:09 pm

We don't have a great record re "the loan market" tbf so I strongly suspect we might be finding it increasingly difficult to convince other managers to lend us decent players. It's not helped by the fact that we don't "rotate" our team and if people have a shirt they have to have a pretty crap game (probably several??) to lose it, or get badly injured.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by JohnDearyMe » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:12 pm

Right_winger wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:58 pm
Dyche is the wrong man to develop younger player or indeed play them. He is a footballing dinosaur who prefers older cloggers who work hard.
So why has he been playing McNeil in place of Brady for the last 12 months?

What about all the players that have gone on to become England internationals under his management?
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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by warksclaret » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:22 pm

He was instrumental in getting Michael Keane and developed him into an England international. Also gave Danny Ings a chance after Austin left-he too went on to play for England. Pope got his chance too under SD

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by TVC15 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:34 pm

warksclaret wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:22 pm
He was instrumental in getting Michael Keane and developed him into an England international. Also gave Danny Ings a chance after Austin left-he too went on to play for England. Pope got his chance too under SD
As did Tarks and Charlie Taylor....and Andre Gray.
Plenty of players have been developed / improved leaps and bounds under Dyche.
Those who can’t see that don’t want to.
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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Right_winger » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:43 pm

JohnDearyMe wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:12 pm
So why has he been playing McNeil in place of Brady for the last 12 months?

What about all the players that have gone on to become England internationals under his management?
Injuries and because his recruitment has been dire he was forced to play McNeil. McNeil made the rest history.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:46 pm

Right_winger wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:43 pm
Injuries and because his recruitment has been dire he was forced to play McNeil. McNeil made the rest history.
Yes nothing to do with Dyche or the coaching staff all just purely down to injuries.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Darnhill Claret » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:00 pm

If he is so bad at identifying talent how come he tried so hard to get Andy Robertson.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Right_winger » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:16 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:46 pm
Yes nothing to do with Dyche or the coaching staff all just purely down to injuries.
Some people can’t see the wood for the trees

If we never had an injury crisis then McNeil was off on loan down the leagues.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Right_winger » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:17 pm

Darnhill Claret wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:00 pm
If he is so bad at identifying talent how come he tried so hard to get Andy Robertson.
Yeah tried so hard that we never signed him. Strange that.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by DCWat » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:48 am

Things have gone off kilter lately but some of the comments about Dyche are at the very best, disrespectful.

Some very short memories!
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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Holtyclaret » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:38 am

Right_winger wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:17 pm
Yeah tried so hard that we never signed him. Strange that.
We had a fee agreed but you can barely blame the lad for choosing Liverpool. Anything to beat the club with when they need your support the most.

UTC

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Cirrus_Minor » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:56 am

Yet another thread used to a pop at Dyche.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:04 am

Right_winger wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:16 pm
Some people can’t see the wood for the trees

If we never had an injury crisis then McNeil was off on loan down the leagues.
So Dyche and the coaching staff get zero credit in your eyes for the player McNeil has become?

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by NewClaret » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:06 am

Cirrus_Minor wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:56 am
Yet another thread used to a pop at Dyche.
Agreed. Staggering how little respect a manager that has brought so much success to the club gets on here. I’m sure some are WUMs.

In terms of loan deals, I’m not a fan of taking youngsters from the elite premier league clubs. Young players, however talented, are prone to mistakes and inconsistent. They can be fantastic in one game, like a massive derby they are all up for, and terrible the next.

There are certain circumstances where it works - if we had a big injury crisis in one position for example - but otherwise I’d prefer we avoid developing our direct competition’s young players whilst leaving ourselves with a gaping hole to fill when they return.

Loans with an option to buy are of course different. I do think City, United and Liverpool are clubs we should scout carefully for their young fringe players that don’t quite make it. Often, outstanding young players don’t quite get the chances they want at those clubs. Like Jason Sancho. What a pick for our right wing he could have been. Appreciate he’d never pick us over Dortmund, once they went in.

One massive advantage we have for these players is they probably don’t have to move from their existing bases to play for Burnley.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by summitclaret » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:23 am

TVC15 wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:34 pm
As did Tarks and Charlie Taylor....and Andre Gray.
Plenty of players have been developed / improved leaps and bounds under Dyche.
Those who can’t see that don’t want to.
I can see it and it worked. The question is why we appear not to be able to do it with cm players and why have we stopped doing it in general?

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by joey13 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:30 am

burnleymik wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:07 pm
Not sure about this. Dwight has come on leaps and bounds over the last year or so.

I do agree, in a roundabout way, that he prefers his journeymen, but I don't agree he refuses to develop younger talent.
Really I’d say Dwight has gone backwards this season

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Steve-Harpers-perm » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:33 am

joey13 wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:30 am
Really I’d say Dwight has gone backwards this season
You would.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by TVC15 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:35 am

summitclaret wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:23 am
I can see it and it worked. The question is why we appear not to be able to do it with cm players and why have we stopped doing it in general?
Westwood improved significantly in the last 12 / 18 months. How many other teams in this league had a CM who only cost £5m and was one of their players of the year.
McNeil and Taylor have also improved massively under the last 12 months.
Our u23s and youth team are both having a great season and there is clearly improvements happening there.

It’s strange how in periods we are doing poorly that some fans start questioning Dyche and think for some reason he has stopped doing all the things that have brought him great success over a 7 year period. Why would he do that ?

Simple fact is it’s very hard for us to compete in this league - always has been. We are going to have difficult periods - we always have. We might not get out of this one. But let’s not pretend that Dyche or the club have stopped doing anything when the evidence is there in front of us.
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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by NewClaret » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:46 am

TVC15 wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:35 am
Westwood improved significantly in the last 12 / 18 months. How many other teams in this league had a CM who only cost £5m and was one of their players of the year.
McNeil and Taylor have also improved massively under the last 12 months.
Our u23s and youth team are both having a great season and there is clearly improvements happening there.

It’s strange how in periods we are doing poorly that some fans start questioning Dyche and think for some reason he has stopped doing all the things that have brought him great success over a 7 year period. Why would he do that ?

Simple fact is it’s very hard for us to compete in this league - always has been. We are going to have difficult periods - we always have. We might not get out of this one. But let’s not pretend that Dyche or the club have stopped doing anything when the evidence is there in front of us.
This.

Would also add that, if we don’t survive this season (I think we will - good GK, a great CB signing, a very capable left side and 3 decent striking options are more than most teams have in the Prem relegation dogfight), I can’t think of any manager better than Dyche to take us back up again.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by thatdberight » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:59 am

NewClaret wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:46 am
This.

Would also add that, if we don’t survive this season (I think we will - good GK, a great CB signing, a very capable left side and 3 decent striking options are more than most teams have in the Prem relegation dogfight), I can’t think of any manager better than Dyche to take us back up again.
Everybody loves the style of Dyche in the Championship where he found a way to be direct by being flowing or going long or passing or whatever was needed and allied it to some stout defending. Nobody would see a better way to get back up - either in likelihood or style.

The issue is, what then?

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by warksclaret » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:00 am

Instant promotion is not a given unless you are WBA, who make a habit of it. Neither is SD staying-suspect it would be time for him to take a view on his career

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by kentonclaret » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:04 am

According to The Sun any club wanting to take Danny Drinkwater on loan has to agree to pay the £110k a week wages.

I hope that he stays at Chelsea and that they continue to foot the bill.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by dsr » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:16 am

Right_winger wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:17 pm
Yeah tried so hard that we never signed him. Strange that.
Do you genuinely believe that if the manager had tried harder, Robertson might have chosen Burnley over Liverpool?

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by dsr » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:20 am

warksclaret wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:00 pm
Having watched the Merseyside cup tie today, I was so impressed with so many of the Liverpool yougsters playing and beating a pretty much full strength Everton team. You can't tell me there is not a defensive central midfielder in either the Liverpool, Man City, Man Utd team that right now could not get into our team, shield the back four and support either Cork, Westwood or Hendrick, and act as cover in the event of injury, fatigue or suspensions. And I am sure Klopp, Pep, Solksjar etc would give their right arm for these guys to gain PL experience. It also saves Garlick getting his cheque book out. We seem to have an immense back room team now at Burnley. Do you think its entered their minds to look at this option-for god's sake our PL survival is at risk right now

I can remember working at the NEC and travelling up from Birmingham for an evening cup tie v Spurs on a Tuesdday night. A certain Mr Cahill had been signed up on the weekend and went straight into the team v the mighty Spurs. He kept his place all season. Probably the best centre half I have seen in a Burnley shirt in the last 20 years
To be fair, it's a lot easier for a mid-table Championship side to sign a player who is better than they already have, than for a mid-table Premier League side to do it. I reckon that Tarkowski and Mee, and for that matter Keane, are all better players for than Cahill was then; if a 19 year old Cahill was signed today, he wouldn't get in the side.

That's the problem with loans. We want someone who is good enough to play better in the Premier League but his own club doesn't want him. Which, I agree, makes Liverpool reserves the most likely place.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by houseboy » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:22 am

warksclaret wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:02 pm
So why has Dwight been given a chance and started virtually every game in the last 12 months
I think he came in at first out of desperation (we had just been clobbered at home 5-1 by a very ordinary Everton team). He was so good when he did come in that he could hardly be ignored and has kept his place since. McNeil got very lucky but took his chance and the rest, as they say, is history.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Dark Cloud » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:29 am

As I alluded to higher up, loans don't really work for us and that's down to our very "settled" starting XI and the fact that unlike most other PL teams we don't rotate. If people are playing ok and aren't injured you don't usually need to see the team sheet to predict our team. And we have a number of extremely good back up players of our own who can't get a game for this reason (Gibson, Long, Vydra et al) so it's largely pointless us taking on another player from another club, especially as the very nature of loans is to get players game time.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by aggi » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:29 am

dsr wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:20 am
To be fair, it's a lot easier for a mid-table Championship side to sign a player who is better than they already have, than for a mid-table Premier League side to do it. I reckon that Tarkowski and Mee, and for that matter Keane, are all better players for than Cahill was then; if a 19 year old Cahill was signed today, he wouldn't get in the side.

That's the problem with loans. We want someone who is good enough to play better in the Premier League but his own club doesn't want him. Which, I agree, makes Liverpool reserves the most likely place.
Lots of other clubs manage it though. Most of the clubs around us in the table have a first team player who's there on loan.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Spijed » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:32 am

warksclaret wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:00 pm
You can't tell me there is not a defensive central midfielder in either the Liverpool, Man City, Man Utd team that right now could not get into our team, shield the back four and support either Cork, Westwood or Hendrick, and act as cover in the event of injury, fatigue or suspensions.
In the first half you could literally drive a bus through Liverpool's defence, it was that open. In a defensive team like ours experience is far more important.

Even when Fergie brought in all the young players he still Pallister and Bruce as the bedrock of the team.

And I'll add that one person made Liverpool look as good as they were - Carlo Ancelotti who made a complete mess of his tactics last night. For such an experienced manager it was very poor.
Last edited by Spijed on Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by aggi » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:34 am

I'd say the bigger issue is that Dyche doesn't like to drop a player straight in unless he really has to. Whether it's loyalty to existing players, having to earn your shirt or the feeling that players need to be fully immersed in our structure before they're ready I don't know. It does mean that a loan player who is here for a limited time is unlikely to feature regularly. When we first signed Drinkwater I predicted that he wouldn't start in the league for us before November which wasn't too far off.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by claretfern » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:18 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:02 pm
There is no way on gods green earth that Pep or Klopp would their young players coming to the turf to have football coached out of them

Can picture it now

Pep : so did you learn a lot at Burnley
Young Player : yeah...i can now watch the ball go over my head. Also I can kick a ball 100 yards
"Oh, and the dugout is warm and comfortable!"

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Giftonsnoidea » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:22 pm

If I was Garlick I wouldn’t give anymore money for loans 90% of the time they don’t even get on the pitch to influence games.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Longsidebogs » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:48 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:13 pm
We cant afford Premier League Players
We dont try to sign inexpensive European players
We wont give Loan players a chance
Were just going to cross our fingers and hope things improve
This ^^^^^^^

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by SGr » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:56 pm

joey13 wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:30 am
Really I’d say Dwight has gone backwards this season
Disagree. Teams know he is basically our only creative outlet now and prepare accordingly. Rafa was the first to act on it last season at SJP by sticking two men on him.

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Re: EXPLORING THE LOAN MARKET

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:15 am

Loans are a complete waste of time and money, UNLESS they are starters. We have had a terrible run of loan players over the last 10 years. The ones that have come with an option to buy apart.
Most could warm the bench at their own clubs, at least let us warm the bench with some development players, if the squad has injuries.
There are some good players we could possibly get in, but SD does seem to have a real reluctance to use them. Wether thats because the club have foisted them on him in the past, I dont know, but its been a pointless exercise whatever the cause.

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