Racism and leaving the field...

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thatdberight
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Racism and leaving the field...

Post by thatdberight » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:40 pm

So where would this one have left us if play had, at worst, been abandoned?
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51012632

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by fidelcastro » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:51 pm

thatdberight wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:40 pm
So where would this one have left us if play had, at worst, been abandoned?
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51012632
Knowing our governing body, they'd probably ban Rudiger.

It hardly gives players the confidence to report it in future, does it?

:(

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by claptrappers_union » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:59 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:51 pm
Knowing our governing body, they'd probably ban Rudiger.

It hardly gives players the confidence to report it in future, does it?

:(
If they can’t find the evidence though, what do you want them to do - make it up?

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by thatdberight » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:01 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:51 pm
Knowing our governing body, they'd probably ban Rudiger.

It hardly gives players the confidence to report it in future, does it?

:(
So they should have pretended there was some even if there wasn't?

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by fidelcastro » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:03 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:59 pm
If they can’t find the evidence though, what do you want them to do - make it up?
No. Are you suggesting that Rudiger made it up?

It's a disappointing, but hardly surprising outcome.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by fidelcastro » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:05 pm

thatdberight wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:01 pm
So they should have pretended there was some even if there wasn't?
Interesting take you have on it. Are you also suggesting that Rudiger made it up?

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Burnley Ace » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:05 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:03 pm
No. Are you suggesting that Rudiger made it up?

It's a disappointing, but hardly surprising outcome.
Given that nobody else heard it, no other player heard it and the TV microphones didn’t pick it up, they have cameras covering every fan and got lip readers in to review the footage - perhaps he was genuinely mistaken?

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by fidelcastro » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:08 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:05 pm
Given that nobody else heard it, no other player heard it and the TV microphones didn’t pick it up - perhaps he was genuinely mistaken?
What did he hear instead?

I think we'd all know monkey noises, if we heard them.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by thatdberight » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:09 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:05 pm
Interesting take you have on it. Are you also suggesting that Rudiger made it up?
No. Interesting (not actually - just what I'd expect) response from you.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by houseboy » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:12 pm

Hypothetical question: given the propensity for cheating among players now how do we ensure that they don’t start claiming racist abuse when there is actually none to get a game stopped or even abandoned. False claims of racism are not unknown in everyday life so why not football.
I’m not remotely suggesting Rudiger did such I thing but it raises the question. Your 3-0 down with half hour to go...ref I heard monkey chants.
???

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by fidelcastro » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:12 pm

thatdberight wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:09 pm
No. Interesting (not actually - just what I'd expect) response from you.
I shall treat that remark with the contempt it deserves.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Burnley Ace » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:12 pm

Perhaps it was the booing? If only his evidence had been supported by just one of the other 63,000 people present? Or even one of the millions, like me, who we’re watching on TV.

Why are you, despite all the evidence, so convinced a section of the crowd were making monkey noises?

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by claptrappers_union » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:13 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:03 pm
No. Are you suggesting that Rudiger made it up?

It's a disappointing, but hardly surprising outcome.
So, by your reckoning - Jay Rodriguez is a racist then?

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by thatdberight » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:14 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:08 pm
What did he hear instead?

I think we'd all know monkey noises, if we heard them.
Who knows what he heard. He knew what he thought he heard. How extensive do you think the search for these has been. The last thing they'll have wanted to do is what they've done. They'll have tried everything with every camera and, let's not forget, microphone available. They haven't said, "We can identify racist abuse but not the culprits". They've said, "We can't find any evidence of it."

Rudiger's not stained by it - although many Burnley fans if they're being consistent should say he is. Not as a one-off. He heard what he heard but he was wrong. End of. Move on. No recriminations.
Last edited by thatdberight on Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Zlatan » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:14 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:08 pm
What did he hear instead?

I think we'd all know monkey noises, if we heard them.
I think that’s the point being made. He heard something, but no one else did. Echoes of the accusation against Jay Rod here

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by thatdberight » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:16 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:13 pm
So, by your reckoning - Jay Rodriguez is a racist then?
By his reckoning, everybody except a very narrow set of people who agree with him are racists.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by fidelcastro » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:16 pm

houseboy wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:12 pm
Hypothetical question: given the propensity for cheating among players now how do we ensure that they don’t start claiming racist abuse when there is actually none to get a game stopped or even abandoned. False claims of racism are not unknown in everyday life so why not football.
I’m not remotely suggesting Rudiger did such I thing but it raises the question. Your 3-0 down with half hour to go...ref I heard monkey chants.
???
At a guess, the protocol would be followed, just like it was in that spurs game, with a PA announcement.

It might mystify the crowd, if there genuinely isn't any racist abuse, but I don't think the ref would have a choice if a player reports it.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by fidelcastro » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:20 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:13 pm
So, by your reckoning - Jay Rodriguez is a racist then?
How do you come to that conclusion?

This was a case of something that may or may not have been said by one player to another. I believe it was inconclusive, but we all know most Burnley fans will back Jay, such is the tribalism of football.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by duncandisorderly » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:25 pm

Why's it disappointing that no one is found being racist?

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by fidelcastro » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:30 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:25 pm
Why's it disappointing that no one is found being racist?
Well, it can only be pleasing if you genuinely think Rudiger lied.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by duncandisorderly » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:35 pm

Lied? Or mistaken?

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by duncandisorderly » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:52 pm

Well, the news report linked in the OP said there was no (evidence of) racism.
Obviously an absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence, so your man Rudiger might fully believe what he heard. Indeed, he might actually have heard it. But there is no evidence to support it.
So, as far as we can all ascertain given the information provided, he must have been mistaken.

Now, if you want to go all in and decry the FA et al of being big cover up merchants that will do anything in their power to deny racism has any impact on the game whatsoever, then all power to you.

But our governing body has decreed, therefore we must all abide.

So shall it be.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by thatdberight » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:54 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:41 pm

I'm glad you had the good grace to ask politely though, unlike thatdbewrong, who just has a superiority complex that he likes to exert over the likes of me :roll:
You could make it difficult. For once.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by tarkys_ears » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:02 am

fidelcastro wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:03 pm
No. Are you suggesting that Rudiger made it up?

It's a disappointing, but hardly surprising outcome.
Well if someone these days can be arrested for scratching their armpits and having 100 expert witnesses reading their lips as evidence in the subsequent trial... do you not think with all the technology inside a stadium that if something was so vocal as to be heard on the field, that they wouldn't have found anything. Bearing in mind that hurt feelings take precedent over knifings in the Met Police area too... believe me they'd have put hundreds of hours into and found something had it existed.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by fidelcastro » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:12 am

tarkys_ears wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:02 am
Well if someone these days can be arrested for scratching their armpits and having 100 expert witnesses reading their lips as evidence in the subsequent trial... do you not think with all the technology inside a stadium that if something was so vocal as to be heard on the field, that they wouldn't have found anything. Bearing in mind that hurt feelings take precedent over knifings in the Met Police area too... believe me they'd have put hundreds of hours into and found something had it existed.
I'm confused. Do you think he made it up or not?

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Grumps » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:53 am

fidelcastro wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:12 am
I'm confused. Do you think he made it up or not?
Do you?

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Grumps » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:07 am

fidelcastro wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:08 pm
What did he hear instead?

I think we'd all know monkey noises, if we heard them.
The players complaint to the referee was that he'd seen something. He was clearly seen doing the monkey gestures to the referee indicating what had happened, therefore he will have known exactly where in the ground this happened. With all the TV cameras, police cameras, and cctv it would have been picked up. Its not a case of someone mishearing something.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:29 am

fidelcastro wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:12 am
I'm confused. Do you think he made it up or not?
Just mistaken, that’s all.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by deanothedino » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:50 am

Grumps wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:07 am
The players complaint to the referee was that he'd seen something. He was clearly seen doing the monkey gestures to the referee indicating what had happened, therefore he will have known exactly where in the ground this happened. With all the TV cameras, police cameras, and cctv it would have been picked up. Its not a case of someone mishearing something.
Not necessarily. Do you really think there is a camera covering every seat in the ground at all times? The CCTV in most grounds can look at every seat but not every seat is covered 100% of the time. Plus the person could be obstructed from the cameras view by the person next to them.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by AlargeClaret » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:07 am

People are starting to think booing is monkey noises imo. Seems to be every time a prem player thinks he hears racist chanting, everyone is in uproar about “ racism” yet when nothing is found after ( and I quote the police) “ an exhaustive investigation was undertaken “ some people still aren’t happy ? People seem to be hearing what they want to hear eg Bong /Ferdinand /Sterling /Rudiger et al .

Of course there’s always gonna be the odd bellend like the city fan a few weeks ago who presumably will be prosecuted but the almost evangelical zeal with which the “ racism “ word bandied about is almost like a witch trial

I’m taking about England only here not some Ukraine /Russia/Bulgar simpleton open racism which is sadly there for all to see.
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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Zlatan » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:33 am

I'm interested to understand peoples thoughts on whether play should be stopped and players removed if Spurs fans continue to sing "Yid Army" as they have done for many years and continue to do so as far as I understand.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Grumps » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:07 am

deanothedino wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:50 am
Not necessarily. Do you really think there is a camera covering every seat in the ground at all times? The CCTV in most grounds can look at every seat but not every seat is covered 100% of the time. Plus the person could be obstructed from the cameras view by the person next to them.
You can think up many excuses up if you're not happy with the outcome

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by wilks_bfc » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:09 am

Zlatan wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:33 am
I'm interested to understand peoples thoughts on whether play should be stopped and players removed if Spurs fans continue to sing "Yid Army" as they have done for many years and continue to do so as far as I understand.
This is an odd one as it's a self-depreciating chant - a bit like, but obliviously not as extreme, how we call ourselves "Dingles".

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Grumps » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:09 am

Zlatan wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:33 am
I'm interested to understand peoples thoughts on whether play should be stopped and players removed if Spurs fans continue to sing "Yid Army" as they have done for many years and continue to do so as far as I understand.
It's a strange one, similar to rappers using the N word when nobody else can. Which players are going to be offended by the yid army chant?

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:17 am

Burnley Ace wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:05 pm
Given that nobody else heard it, no other player heard it and the TV microphones didn’t pick it up, they have cameras covering every fan and got lip readers in to review the footage - perhaps he was genuinely mistaken?
Cameras covering every fan is contentious to say the least you can easily move or hide behind something or blend in, obviously it helps massively I wouldn't say that alone is 100% conclusive.
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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by deanothedino » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:34 am

Grumps wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:07 am
You can think up many excuses up if you're not happy with the outcome
Where have I said I'm unhappy with the outcome? As both clubs have said, a lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen.

On this occasion, they've not found any evidence - it either means Rudiger was mistaken or someone has got lucky and hasn't been banned for life. Hopefully they have learnt their lesson, and thought about their actions and beliefs and made a change for the better.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:17 am

deanothedino wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:50 am
Not necessarily. Do you really think there is a camera covering every seat in the ground at all times? The CCTV in most grounds can look at every seat but not every seat is covered 100% of the time. Plus the person could be obstructed from the cameras view by the person next to them.
Spurs new stadium does exactly this. Every seat is covered...plus many microphones over the ground to hear things.
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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:23 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:17 am
Cameras covering every fan is contentious to say the least you can easily move or hide behind something or blend in, obviously it helps massively I wouldn't say that alone is 100% conclusive.
So a player sees someone (is it now just an individual rather than a group?) making monkey gestures from 15/20 yards away is conclusive, but cameras covering seated fans isn’t because they could hide or blend in?

You are really scraping the barrel to support the accusation despite all the evidence to the contrary.

The newspapers reported that he claimed he was targeted by monkey chants not gestures

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by deanothedino » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:55 am

Cleveleys_claret wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:17 am
Spurs new stadium does exactly this. Every seat is covered...plus many microphones over the ground to hear things.
100% of the time? I'm not sure I believe that claim. To have a close enough shot of every member of the crowd would require a ridiculous number of cameras. The cameras at the Turf can see every seat, just not 100% of the time.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:24 am

If a camera which is based at pitch side aiming towards the crowd...then how can they not pick up a monkey gesture yet a player looking in the same direction can?

The microphones are also hidden throughout the ground.
Last edited by Cleveleys_claret on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:26 am

deanothedino wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:55 am
100% of the time? I'm not sure I believe that claim. To have a close enough shot of every member of the crowd would require a ridiculous number of cameras. The cameras at the Turf can see every seat, just not 100% of the time.
My brother is actually a spurs fan and worked on the stadium for Imtech who did the electrics for the ground. He was also on Anfield before White Hart Lane and said the 2 grounds dont compare. Anfield was thrown together whilst WHL is state of the art in every way

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by deanothedino » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:31 am

Cleveleys_claret wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:24 am
If a camera which is based at pitch side aiming towards the crowd...then how can they not pick up a monkey gesture yet a player looking in the same direction can?

The microphones are also hidden throughout the ground.
And there was definitely a camera looking at the crowd at the same angle as Rudiger?

I don't think it matters tbh, I've said what I think further back. Either Rudiger is mistaken with what he heard/saw or a fan has got lucky

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by deanothedino » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:34 am

Cleveleys_claret wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:26 am
My brother is actually a spurs fan and worked on the stadium for Imtech who did the electrics for the ground. He was also on Anfield before White Hart Lane and said the 2 grounds dont compare. Anfield was thrown together whilst WHL is state of the art in every way
Hopefully not one of the ones reported as being on cans first thing in the morning before having a bit of coke for lunch :lol:

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Grumps » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:36 am

Burnley Ace wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:23 am
So a player sees someone (is it now just an individual rather than a group?) making monkey gestures from 15/20 yards away is conclusive, but cameras covering seated fans isn’t because they could hide or blend in?

You are really scraping the barrel to support the accusation despite all the evidence to the contrary.

The newspapers reported that he claimed he was targeted by monkey chants not gestures
At the time he indicated to the ref the monkey gesture, strange thing to do if he'd only heard chants

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:47 am

deanothedino wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:34 am
Hopefully not one of the ones reported as being on cans first thing in the morning before having a bit of coke for lunch :lol:
Very doubtful...the area he worked on was regularly drug tested and alcohol tested in the morning before even entering the site

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:04 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:23 am
So a player sees someone (is it now just an individual rather than a group?) making monkey gestures from 15/20 yards away is conclusive, but cameras covering seated fans isn’t because they could hide or blend in?

You are really scraping the barrel to support the accusation despite all the evidence to the contrary.

The newspapers reported that he claimed he was targeted by monkey chants not gestures
All I'm simply saying on a case to case basis, cameras will not always be 100% conclusive in securing a conviction. I'd like racism kicked out of football as much as the next man, I just don't think camera's will always work 100% towards that objective.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:49 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:24 am
If a camera which is based at pitch side aiming towards the crowd...then how can they not pick up a monkey gesture yet a player looking in the same direction can?

The microphones are also hidden throughout the ground.
Not 100% of the time, a football stadium is a fluid environ, we are not all corpses in our seats (even though as of late it could have felt that way) people interpass each other & stanchions/pillars obstruct the field of vision & I'm not 100% convinced the cameras rangefinders/ scopes cover mass from top to bottom & left to right in all 4 stands across the country.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:59 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:49 pm
Not 100% of the time, a football stadium is a fluid environ, we are not all corpses in our seats (even though as of late it could have felt that way) people interpass each other & stanchions/pillars obstruct the field of vision & I'm not 100% convinced the cameras rangefinders/ scopes cover mass from top to bottom & left to right in all 4 stands across the country.
This is the new WHL - there are no stanchions obstructing the field of vision

Burnley Ace
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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by Burnley Ace » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:01 pm

Grumps wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:36 am
At the time he indicated to the ref the monkey gesture, strange thing to do if he'd only heard chants
I thought that at the time, perhaps he was doing it for effect? The match report is quite clear that it was monkey noises.

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Re: Racism and leaving the field...

Post by TVC15 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:26 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:33 am
I'm interested to understand peoples thoughts on whether play should be stopped and players removed if Spurs fans continue to sing "Yid Army" as they have done for many years and continue to do so as far as I understand.
It’s a bit of a debate at Spurs as some of their fans don’t like it but as said it’s become a bit of a self deprecating term for a section of their supporters.
It’s a complicated area as you could argue that if some people find it offensive / racist then it is - to them...but in practical terms then the only point that will make them or any club take action against this is when “enough” people are saying that this is offensive or racist...and the definition of enough is unknown and also partly dependent on who is complaining.
One thing for sure if ever there is a point that Spurs could be impacted commercially by this from things like major sponsors complaining - it will be soon classified as wrong !

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