Racism and leaving the field...

[fidelcastro]

Do you?

No.

[Jakubclaret]

This is the new WHL - there are no stanchions obstructing the field of vision

I didn't know that, to be honest I wasn't even referring to WHL it was a general comment regarding all clubs throughout the leagues, racism isn't exclusive to WHL, apologies for the misunderstanding.

[Spike]

Wasn’t Rudiger injured against us and then gobbing off in the touch line and falsely trying to accuse us of wrongdoing.
Dodgy would be my one word description of him

[thatdberight]

Wasn’t Rudiger injured against us and then gobbing off in the touch line and falsely trying to accuse us of wrongdoing.
Dodgy would be my one word description of him

And one which would apply to almost every professional footballer, including Burnley's.

He was very het up having just been involved with Son, an incident in which he simulated injury, albeit that Son's action deserved a red. With the current necessary focus / high alert / hysteria (take your pick, that's not the point) regarding racism, was he on a hair trigger for the next boo he heard to be interpreted in a specific way? Did he hear something of which, unfortunately, no evidence can now be found so the perpetrator gets off? Did he make it up? Who knows? His reaction certainly wasn't of someone making it up - it was directed at a target and looked reactive to 'something' real or perceived.

But it's only a matter of time before somebody wanting to be racist shouts 'Boo' repeatedly in a way that gives them plausible deniability or comes up with some other 'clever' wheeze. It's only a matter of time before a player lies about hearing something to gain advantage. It's human nature.

Would Rudiger make that claim up? I don't know him. Players will lie about whether it's their throw-in or how badly a tackle hurt them. What's their moral compass (if they have one):
- if I'd lie about something that gains me little advantage I'd certainly lie about something that gains me a big advantage. Especially when the general atmosphere round this issue is so unquestioningly supportive.
or
- I'd lie about some stuff but that's a serious accusation, I won't do that especially since it might fracture the support on this issue.

Unless someone has something specific that overrides all the ground cameras and mics, all the TV gear and the fact that if even one Spurs fan had anonymously come forward not only would the search have been made much more specific but the club could have said they had "some" uncorroborated evidence rather than none, this specific is best just left where it is. In a one-off the assumption has to be that everyone acted in good faith.

But then I'm a racist so I would say that.

[houseboy]

Where have I said I'm unhappy with the outcome? As both clubs have said, a lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen.

On this occasion, they've not found any evidence - it either means Rudiger was mistaken or someone has got lucky and hasn't been banned for life. Hopefully they have learnt their lesson, and thought about their actions and beliefs and made a change for the better.

You seem to have some difficulty in equating 'lack of evidence' with nothing having happened. If indeed nothing has happened then who exactly will have learned their lesson and changed for the better? You say lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen but it probably does mean that there is a better than average chance that nothing did happen. This goes along the lines of the man who is found innocent of rape having 'got away with it'. It seems somewhat odd that on here there are those who are 'disappointed' with the outcome. Why? You can't just conjour up a guilty party because someone shouts 'racism'.
Rudiger could have been mistaken yes, but he could also be lying, either way these two possibilites are more likely than not finding an offender in a stadium full of people and cameras, in full view of the watching world.

As someone has pointed out racism in football has been attacked with a religious zeal and it seems like people are so intent on 'kicking it out' that they see and hear things that aren't happening in order to do so. Racism must not be tolerated, anywhere, but we must be careful to avoid witch hunts in order to achieve what is an ideal end. As someone has also pointed out about scratching armpits, I do that occasionally but I am far from being any sort of racist, so would I stand a chance of getting 'banned for life' if I did it at a football match?

[deanothedino]

You seem to have some difficulty in equating 'lack of evidence' with nothing having happened. If indeed nothing has happened then who exactly will have learned their lesson and changed for the better? You say lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen but it probably does mean that there is a better than average chance that nothing did happen. This goes along the lines of the man who is found innocent of rape having 'got away with it'. It seems somewhat odd that on here there are those who are 'disappointed' with the outcome. Why? You can't just conjour up a guilty party because someone shouts 'racism'.
Rudiger could have been mistaken yes, but he could also be lying, either way these two possibilites are more likely than not finding an offender in a stadium full of people and cameras, in full view of the watching world.

As someone has pointed out racism in football has been attacked with a religious zeal and it seems like people are so intent on 'kicking it out' that they see and hear things that aren't happening in order to do so. Racism must not be tolerated, anywhere, but we must be careful to avoid witch hunts in order to achieve what is an ideal end. As someone has also pointed out about scratching armpits, I do that occasionally but I am far from being any sort of racist, so would I stand a chance of getting 'banned for life' if I did it at a football match?

You seem to have difficulty reading my posts.

I've said there's no supportingevidence been found, it may still have happened or it may not, either Rudiger was mistaken (I think you must agree with that to be taking the approach you are) or someone has got lucky and hasn't been caught.

The word supporting is pretty key there because there is some evidence, Rudiger believes he heard/saw it but no further evidence has been found to support his allegations.

I find it pretty unlikely that Rudiger would make up hearing that in the middle of a game but maybe he did.

I'm not disappointed with the outcome, and I have never said I was, you've yet to produce evidence that I am disappointed. Another thing you seem to be having difficulty with. Maybe I should have added the caveat to the lessons learnt comment with "if someone has got away with it" but I did expect an adult reading the comment to be able to see that was the meaning. Though you could still say, hopefully anyone who has thought out making racist gestures or slurs has seen the press coverage and decided to take a long hard look at themselves.

As for your last line... give it a rest. You regularly scratch both armpits simultaneously with the hand on the corresponding arm?

Now if you want to continue arguing about people being disappointed, find someone who is disappointed to do it with.

[houseboy]

You seem to have difficulty reading my posts.

I've said there's no supportingevidence been found, it may still have happened or it may not, either Rudiger was mistaken (I think you must agree with that to be taking the approach you are) or someone has got lucky and hasn't been caught.

The word supporting is pretty key there because there is some evidence, Rudiger believes he heard/saw it but no further evidence has been found to support his allegations.

I find it pretty unlikely that Rudiger would make up hearing that in the middle of a game but maybe he did.

I'm not disappointed with the outcome, and I have never said I was, you've yet to produce evidence that I am disappointed. Another thing you seem to be having difficulty with. Maybe I should have added the caveat to the lessons learnt comment with "if someone has got away with it" but I did expect an adult reading the comment to be able to see that was the meaning. Though you could still say, hopefully anyone who has thought out making racist gestures or slurs has seen the press coverage and decided to take a long hard look at themselves.

As for your last line... give it a rest. You regularly scratch both armpits simultaneously with the hand on the corresponding arm?

Now if you want to continue arguing about people being disappointed, find someone who is disappointed to do it with.

First off let me apologise. When I said some were disappointed I wasn't aiming that comment specifically at you, it was a general statement and was in no way meant to be aimed at you.
The supporting evidence you speak of is really the only evidence. Rudigers comments/actions are not evidence strictly speaking, they are accusations or statements meant to draw attention to something, they do not in themselves constitute evidence.
I am not saying Rudiger lied but I am saying it is probably more likely he did (or was mistaken) than the cameras and technology and physical witnesses all coming up with nothing if anything happened as he said.
Armpit scratching with one arm - as do most monkeys actually. Two handed armpit scratching is something made up in cartoons.
Incidentally the bit about anyone making this up I have already mentioned because in this day and age of footballing cheats I believe pretty much anything is possible.
I want to see an end to racism, it is dreadful and should not be tolerated, but as with anything of this ilk we can sometimes get a little carried away and go down the route of obsession. As we all know from the past the race card is often played to gain an advantage (and not just in football) and that is sometimes worse than the racism itself because not only is it dishonest but also weakens the stance of those who would stamp it out.

[deanothedino]

Armpit scratching with one arm - as do most monkeys actually. Two handed armpit scratching is something made up in cartoons.

Yes but it's the two handed one that would get you in trouble and you'd have no excuse really - its hard to give them a good scratch that way!

It would look better if you didn't default to "he was lying", I'd imagine it's easy to be mistaken about what you hear in a large stadium and I really don't see what he could gain by making it up at the time.

His testimony would be evidence in court though but by itself considering the circumstances (large stadium etc) it wouldn't be very strong evidence.

It can go too far but, even if ultimately Rudiger was mistaken, hopefully the attention it's brought to the issue can bring more positive action.

[houseboy]

Agree mate. I don't really think he was lying but mistaken yes. My point about lying is that this is yet another avenue open to the myriad of cheating footballers who's only eye is their on the points bonus in their wages. If we continue to have games so relatively easilly stopped for alleged racist incidents someone WILL for sure think 'hang on we can get this impending defeat stopped'. The difficulty is in doing it for one isolated incident as per this one. When it is done wholesale as we have seen in Eastern Europe especially then yes, take the appropriate action, but one stupid person shouting insults or making jestures should never bring about the stoppage of a game, that is, I think, using a sledge hammer to crack a nut. It also makes it easier for fans to stop a game they are losing.
People pay a lot of money to go to games these days and to allow a small handfull of people (or even one person) to bring a halt to that is wrong. With the technology at our disposal these days (and with most people educated in the idea of anti-racism) a player having a quiet word in the refs ear who would then make the stadium authorities aware of it should be enough. The authorities should then (quite easilly) sort it out without resorting to tannoy threats.
I think the idea of making public threats and holding up or even stopping games is just the football authorities wanting to be SEEN to be doing something because unfortunately they did ignore it for too long.

[Jakubclaret]

Agree mate. I don't really think he was lying but mistaken yes. My point about lying is that this is yet another avenue open to the myriad of cheating footballers who's only eye is their on the points bonus in their wages. If we continue to have games so relatively easilly stopped for alleged racist incidents someone WILL for sure think 'hang on we can get this impending defeat stopped'. The difficulty is in doing it for one isolated incident as per this one. When it is done wholesale as we have seen in Eastern Europe especially then yes, take the appropriate action, but one stupid person shouting insults or making jestures should never bring about the stoppage of a game, that is, I think, using a sledge hammer to crack a nut. It also makes it easier for fans to stop a game they are losing.
People pay a lot of money to go to games these days and to allow a small handfull of people (or even one person) to bring a halt to that is wrong. With the technology at our disposal these days (and with most people educated in the idea of anti-racism) a player having a quiet word in the refs ear who would then make the stadium authorities aware of it should be enough. The authorities should then (quite easilly) sort it out without resorting to tannoy threats.
I think the idea of making public threats and holding up or even stopping games is just the football authorities wanting to be SEEN to be doing something because unfortunately they did ignore it for too long.

It's a daily occurence people (workers) get abused & treat shoddily, you've just got to get on with it & ignore it, it's not acceptable but you can always deal with it later & find ways to cope better or even avoid it. People earning really poor money (takeaway drivers & taxi drivers, emergency & front line services, call centres) never mind earning thousands a week. If everybody downed tools at the slightest bit of abuse the country would grind to a halt.

[houseboy]

It's a daily occurence people (workers) get abused & treat shoddily, you've just got to get on with it & ignore it, it's not acceptable but you can always deal with it later & find ways to cope better or even avoid it. People earning really poor money (takeaway drivers & taxi drivers, emergency & front line services, call centres) never mind earning thousands a week. If everybody downed tools at the slightest bit of abuse the country would grind to a halt.

I would agree with this totally mate. Racism is just plain wrong and any right thinking person cannot argue with that but I agree that these days people are just too sensitive and easilly 'offended'. Someone on here has already posted that the police now seem to spend more time helping people who have had their feelings hurt than they do stopping crime. Someone gets their house robbed and they don't even turn out now but if someone gets called a name they are all over it like a rash. Was Rudiger over-reacting? Well on the basis that no-one else seemed to notice it I would say yes he was.

Sticks and stones and all that.

[deanothedino]

The authorities should then (quite easilly) sort it out without resorting to tannoy threats.
I think the idea of making public threats and holding up or even stopping games is just the football authorities wanting to be SEEN to be doing something because unfortunately they did ignore it for too long.

You can look at the tannoy threats another way though. It brings it to the attention of the right minded people in the stadium who might now pick out the individual responsible and report them to a steward thus removing the problem.

[houseboy]

You can look at the tannoy threats another way though. It brings it to the attention of the right minded people in the stadium who might now pick out the individual responsible and report them to a steward thus removing the problem.

True - very true.