\burnley are facing a battle to survive in the Premier Lge

[spt_claret]

Could not be bothered to read all of that but in terms of Defour the only reason we got him for £8m was because of his injury record....and unfortunately it did not improve in his time at Burnley or from the sounds of it at his current club either.

Defour was a great player - he brought the very best out of Cork too (and vice versa)....but you cannot say that his time at the club was an overall success given how few games he played....I think it worked out at a cost to the club of £400k per game - and as good as he was he wasn’t worth that !!

His injury record rapidly worsened for us, and progressively so, yet still actually racked up 51 PL appearances, 58 in all. Converted into minutes played it's around 39 games and a half hour spare, so £203k per 90 mins. Not quite your figure, though granted still not cheap.
Still, Vydra and Gibson have been rather more than that. And our top scorer Wood stands at £535k per PL goal.

Nice dig, I appreciate I'm not good at brevity, I prefer context and detail to being snappy, it's why I don't use twitter and also why I generally avoid the politics threads- whether you agree or not nobody likes an armchair dictator.

[dandeclaret]

So true.. but we never change anything to stop the slump.

Slump....... wish we’d had a few more of these slumps in the year’s I was watching Burnley home and away..... you know as opposed to the actual slumps.

[bodge]

There's a massive depressive psychosis afflicting this board dan unfortunately, a type of weird feeding frenzy.

No doubting the Guardian's comments but i would think Bournemouth and Newcastle are also extremely concerned at joining Norwich in the Championship.

Too many people on here think we're the football equivalent of Haseeb Hameed when we're Tim Bresnan in reality.

[Spijed]

There's a massive depressive psychosis afflicting this board dan unfortunately, a type of weird feeding frenzy.

No doubting the Guardian's comments but i would think Bournemouth and Newcastle are also extremely concerned at joining Norwich in the Championship.

Too many people on here think we're the football equivalent of Haseeb Hameed when we're Tim Bresnan in reality.

Brighton aren't pulling up trees either!

[alboclaret]

Around 14 tackles a game on average

Just over 1 per player

Words fail me

Stats are sometimes missleading but that is truly shocking reading tbh.

So along with only a tackle a game, 1 in 3 of the passes we make dont complete. Wtf.

The tackle stat is wierd...wonder what the stat was 2nd half of last yr....or the season before when we marveled at our defence.

Something somewhere has or is going wrong... are the players tired/past it at this level/not playing the for the manager as much as they were?
Or is it a tactical thing. Granted, I am critical of him at times but I really hope dyche turns it round.
But not got a good feeling about it.....

[dandeclaret]

There's a massive depressive psychosis afflicting this board dan unfortunately, a type of weird feeding frenzy.

No doubting the Guardian's comments but i would think Bournemouth and Newcastle are also extremely concerned at joining Norwich in the Championship.

Too many people on here think we're the football equivalent of Haseeb Hameed when we're Tim Bresnan in reality.

[TVC15]

His injury record rapidly worsened for us, and progressively so, yet still actually racked up 51 PL appearances, 58 in all. Converted into minutes played it's around 39 games and a half hour spare, so £203k per 90 mins. Not quite your figure, though granted still not cheap.
Still, Vydra and Gibson have been rather more than that. And our top scorer Wood stands at £535k per PL goal.

Nice dig, I appreciate I'm not good at brevity, I prefer context and detail to being snappy, it's why I don't use twitter and also why I generally avoid the politics threads- whether you agree or not nobody likes an armchair dictator.

We’ll never know all the exact details but we know he signed for £8m.
10% signing on fee at least and conservatively on £2m a year salary.
We know that we paid significant bonuses during this period so probably another million in bonuses over the 3 years as a conservative estimate.
Using your 39 full games that works out at about £400k per 90 minutes.

[dougcollins]

Regardless of any stats I think we're probably the third worse performers.

It's gonna be hard.

[Tall Paul]

Regardless of any stats I think we're probably the third worse performers.

It's gonna be hard.

What are you basing that assessment on?

Stats are sometimes missleading but that is truly shocking reading tbh.

So along with only a tackle a game, 1 in 3 of the passes we make dont complete. Wtf.

The tackle stat is wierd...wonder what the stat was 2nd half of last yr....or the season before when we marveled at our defence.

Something somewhere has or is going wrong... are the players tired/past it at this level/not playing the for the manager as much as they were?
Or is it a tactical thing. Granted, I am critical of him at times but I really hope dyche turns it round.
But not got a good feeling about it.....

We made a total of 533 tackles the season we finished 7th, or 14 per game. In other words, pretty much exactly the same as we're averaging this season. Maybe not that shocking after all.

The pass completion wasn't that much different either at 70.5%.

[Helmshore Claret]

I don't think it's a fair comparison when they've been in the league for half a season.

If they don't get into the Europa league next season then that's the time to compare.

Totally agree, but I hope that they win their next game!

[alboclaret]

What are you basing that assessment on?



We made a total of 533 tackles the season we finished 7th, or 14 per game. In other words, pretty much exactly the same as we're averaging this season. Maybe not that shocking after all.

The pass completion wasn't that much different either at 70.5%.

Fair dos....maybe sounds worse than it is. Wonder what constitutes a tackle, some one carrying the ball on the floor then being challenged by opponent. ?
I'll be counting them now I know it

[ClaretAL]

I wrote this on another thread but think its poignant, and yes we will be in a seriously negative position after the next 4 games, and I'm sure I will do my fair share of its buts and ands about it, but then after the next 4 games is where our chance is.

The focus put on the next 4 games is understandable, and lets say we lose all 4, OK not good but it will probably end up with us in relegation zone. However Burnley always play better when our backs are against the wall, so it could be a blessing .But then when you look at the remaining fixtures, below are something I feel (and probably through claret tinted glasses somewhat), that we could get something from. if we take 16 points as required I think the last 3 games of the season are going to be massive.

Saturday 15th February
Premier League
Southampton V Burnley

Saturday 22nd February
Premier League
Burnley V Bournemouth

Saturday 29th February
Premier League
Newcastle United V Burnley

Saturday 21st March
Premier League
Burnley V Watford

Saturday 4th April
Premier League
Crystal Palace V Burnley

Saturday 11th April
Premier League
Burnley V Sheffield United

Saturday 18th April
Premier League
West Ham United V Burnley

Saturday 2nd May
Premier League
Burnley V Wolverhampton Wanderers

Saturday 9th May
Premier League
Norwich City V Burnley

Sunday 17th May
Premier League
Burnley V Brighton and Hove Albion

[bfcjg]

Back onto the subject of dubious transfers with no rational explanation Crouch. Financially who gained from that ? The agent ? The player ? Employee/s of BFC because let's face it apart from one or two individuals at BFC the entire football world scratched there head at that one.

[Grimsdale]

Even if we lose the next 4, we will be on the same points as last season after 25 games with what looks to be a much easier run-in this season.

[jojomk1]

Even if we lose the next 4, we will be on the same points as last season after 25 games with what looks to be a much easier run-in this season.

And with the same starting 11 as last season (all 12 months older)

[snapcrackleandpop]

I wrote this on another thread but think its poignant, and yes we will be in a seriously negative position after the next 4 games, and I'm sure I will do my fair share of its buts and ands about it, but then after the next 4 games is where our chance is.

The focus put on the next 4 games is understandable, and lets say we lose all 4, OK not good but it will probably end up with us in relegation zone. However Burnley always play better when our backs are against the wall, so it could be a blessing .But then when you look at the remaining fixtures, below are something I feel (and probably through claret tinted glasses somewhat), that we could get something from. if we take 16 points as required I think the last 3 games of the season are going to be massive.

Saturday 15th February
Premier League
Southampton V Burnley

Saturday 22nd February
Premier League
Burnley V Bournemouth

Saturday 29th February
Premier League
Newcastle United V Burnley

Saturday 21st March
Premier League
Burnley V Watford

Saturday 4th April
Premier League
Crystal Palace V Burnley

Saturday 11th April
Premier League
Burnley V Sheffield United

Saturday 18th April
Premier League
West Ham United V Burnley

Saturday 2nd May
Premier League
Burnley V Wolverhampton Wanderers

Saturday 9th May
Premier League
Norwich City V Burnley

Sunday 17th May
Premier League
Burnley V Brighton and Hove Albion

I would agree with this normally but something just doesn't feel right this time.

[Grimsdale]

And with the same starting 11 as last season (all 12 months older)

Exactly, just like Liverpool have the same starting 11 as last season (all 12 months older)

[claretonthecoast1882]

Slump....... wish we’d had a few more of these slumps in the year’s I was watching Burnley home and away..... you know as opposed to the actual slumps.

You have to remember for some of the noisiest football began in 2009/10 hence their struggles

[BOYSIE31]

Aaron Mooy would improve our midfield and Philip Billing at 16m wasn't out of our reach and would play well alongside Cork or Westwood.
Neil Maupay would have been an upgrade to our front line for 14m. Brentford payed 1.6m for him. Rumours are he's back off to france for 40m so that would have been exceptional ROI for Mike. When Brighton were considering him, we were lining up Peter Crouch.
How about Matty Cash, 22, right back at Forest playing really well in the Championship and is about half Phil Bardsley's age? Or Luke Ayling who Leeds signed for less than Matt Lowton cost.
If pace is your thing, Lys Mousset cost Sheff Utd 10m from Bournemouth. I even think Che Adams would be an upgrade on Ashley Barnes and offer something a bit different.

Premier League clubs get about 25x the amount of money that clubs get in the Dutch or Belgian Leagues. Are you suggesting that there isn't a single player in in either of those that would improve us? Or the Polish, Swedish, Danish or Norwegian leagues that attract even less money? Not one?

It's utter nonsense to think our first team can't be improved within the income we get from being in the Premier League. If it isn't improved it's our choice because we're either not capable of scouting players or we've burned the available budget on bench warmers.

Could not have written it better myself - for a premier league club or even championship are recruitment is woeful with what seems no planning but our 23 team - said before these lads might well be our first team in 2 years

[Herts Clarets]

Listening to the radio this morning, I hear that Brighton are willing to let Glen Murray leave. My first thought was that I wouldn't put it past our recruitment team to be in talks with the 36 year old as a replacement for the injured Barnes.

Tall, past it, surplus to requirement at a rival club due to them upgrading their strikers, after one last pay day. Remind anyone of January last year?

[claretonthecoast1882]

Listening to the radio this morning, I hear that Brighton are willing to let Glen Murray leave. My first thought was that I wouldn't put it past our recruitment team to be in talks with the 36 year old as a replacement for the injured Barnes.

Tall, past it, surplus to requirement at a rival club due to them upgrading their strikers, after one last pay day. Remind anyone of January last year?

well at least you have moved on from Defour, small steps at least

[BOYSIE31]

well at least you have moved on from Defour, small steps at least

Who do you think we should try and bring in ????

[claretonthecoast1882]

Who do you think we should try and bring in ????

January despite what the moaners say about it is a tough one to make good signings, clubs with a sniff of promotion to the Prem won't sell same with clubs around Europe if they have a chance of European qualification will also be reluctant. I am not going to go all lurker and start spinning a tomboal machine and making out I have watched the player for 3 year either. ones that immediately spring to mind :-

I like Pereira at West Brom but he is there on a season long loan from Portugal also Matt Phillips there would be a fill in for our problem wing but they aren't going to sell.

Benrahma at Brentford but same scenario with promotion ( would prefer him over Watkins as I think he is better value due to less hype)

Abroad the one who could be a lesser fee is Niang at Rennes, had a go here at Watford but was maybe a bit young although his best game for them was against us and would be an upgrade on Barnes.

[Andreshotboots]

I've just got a feeling secretly our board won't be overly bothered should we go down. I think they know we are a speck of sand amongst massive planets. Controversially, I also think Dyche is part of the problem. His record of actually playing loan players is awful, permanent signings,the likes of Wells,Vydra and Gibson's careers have stalled massively since joining us. Players and agents aren't stupid and they will look at the chances of actually getting game time and give us a miss.

[Andreshotboots]

I've just got a feeling secretly our board won't be overly bothered should we go down. I think they know we are a speck of sand amongst massive planets. Controversially, I also think Dyche is part of the problem. His record of actually playing loan players is awful. Permanent signings,the likes of Vydra and Gibson's careers have also stalled massively since joining us. Players and agents aren't stupid and they will look at the chances of actually getting game time and give us a miss.

[claretonthecoast1882]

I've just got a feeling secretly our board won't be overly bothered should we go down. I think they know we are a speck of sand amongst massive planets. Controversially, I also think Dyche is part of the problem. His record of actually playing loan players is awful, permanent signings,the likes of Wells,Vydra and Gibson's careers have stalled massively since joining us. Players and agents aren't stupid and they will look at the chances of actually getting game time and give us a miss.

Wouldn't an agent or player with confidence in their ability look at the players who have improved under him rather than just focus on a negative ?

How many players are there out there that their first question is game time as opposed to wage ?

[BOYSIE31]

January despite what the moaners say about it is a tough one to make good signings, clubs with a sniff of promotion to the Prem won't sell same with clubs around Europe if they have a chance of European qualification will also be reluctant. I am not going to go all lurker and start spinning a tomboal machine and making out I have watched the player for 3 year either. ones that immediately spring to mind :-

I like Pereira at West Brom but he is there on a season long loan from Portugal also Matt Phillips there would be a fill in for our problem wing but they aren't going to sell.

Benrahma at Brentford but same scenario with promotion ( would prefer him over Watkins as I think he is better value due to less hype)

Abroad the one who could be a lesser fee is Niang at Rennes, had a go here at Watford but was maybe a bit young although his best game for them was against us and would be an upgrade on Barnes.

I agree January is a bad one to do buisness in and would not have bothered getting any in but after recents results / performances and injuries i now think we need 3 in and not just benchwarmers - thats how much i think we are in trouble.
The recent wins over West Ham and Bournemouth just papered over worrying cracks.

[Erasmus]

I don't see that the problem is with the club at all, it's just about modern football and the way the Premier League is set up. This is demonstrated by the fact that no club of Burnley's size and stature has ever survived in this league without considerable financial support from the owners. So every season we stay up is a major over-achievement and relegation would just be what should be expected. It's not nice, but that is the reality that no one can change. We have very much exceeded all logical expectations but realistically we can't remain as a Premier League club long term. It just never happens.

People ask why we don't sign players like Billing, Mooy or Maupay and the answer is players of that stature don't see Burnley as a good career move. They see us for what we are, the smallest fish in the pond who will almost certainly be relegated in the next season or two. So they look for move to a club like Brighton or Bournemouth which have much better long-term prospects and turn their noses up at a potential move to Burnley.

We may not like all this and complain about our failures to recruit properly but we have to face up to the reality of who we are and where we are. There is no likelihood of things changing and no one at the club is to blame; just the opposite, the chairman, the board and the manager deserve only enormous credit for the unbelievable achievements they have brought us.

[Sproggy]

Of course we're a good career move. Small squad, Premier league football, 50k a week. Where we are or might be in 2 years is irrelevant.
"Burnley are in for you. Treble your money."; "No thanks, I'll stay at Brentford - much safer to stay in the Championship than to risk relegation from the Prem in 2 years time"

[kentonclaret]

The main problem, surely, is not having established a scouting and recruiting network that can identify and recruit players before they become household names and their prices have inflated well beyond our reach.

So Maupay saw Brentford as a good career move but not Burnley?

Ollie Watkins was the standout player at Exeter for at least a season and a half, Brentford picked him up relatively cheaply and are now asking for £25 million plus now that he is on many clubs radars.

It seems that we have invested millions in state of the art training facilities but are still not an attractive proposition for potential signings to want to join the club if some posters are to be believed.

[claretcarrot93]

Could not be bothered to read all of that but in terms of Defour the only reason we got him for £8m was because of his injury record....and unfortunately it did not improve in his time at Burnley or from the sounds of it at his current club either.

Defour was a great player - he brought the very best out of Cork too (and vice versa)....but you cannot say that his time at the club was an overall success given how few games he played....I think it worked out at a cost to the club of £400k per game - and as good as he was he wasn’t worth that !!

Defour was probably the main reason we finished 7th. Was easily our best player and as you said got the best out of Cork till he got injured. I think that makes him a success. It gave fans Europe and extra revenue. We also played the best football we have played under Dyche in the prem for them first six months.

[jurek]

I fear we may well be in a battle to survive this year
and hope and pray that we are not and stay up relatively comfortably.

Towards the end of November when we were sitting in 6th position
with 18 points from 13 games and +2 goal difference I think many clarets were
not even contemplating surviving.
Since then we've played 8 more, won two (1-0 each) and lost six
and are on 24 points from 21 games with a -10 goal difference.
And we're in 15th position.
That doesn't bode well especially if you then consider who we play in the next 4 games.

I can't help but wonder from time to time where we would be had we managed to get
in (or unearth) two or three decent players over the last 3/4 transfer windows.
Better off and not in our current position? Possibly?
Probably less in money terms.
More likely than unlikely?

Can but dream.

[rob63]

A good article and I tend to agree. The next 5 or 6 weeks are pivotal. Come out of that with 28-30 points it eases things a bit, but come out with anything less and we are in real trouble

Agree totally, everyone at the bottom is picking up points, sometimes against the "top 6", unlike in recent seasons where you could see 1 or sometimes 2 good candidates for relegation. It could be that to escape this year requires 42 points, 36 this season might not cover it.

[rob63]

Fair dos....maybe sounds worse than it is. Wonder what constitutes a tackle, some one carrying the ball on the floor then being challenged by opponent. ?
I'll be counting them now I know it

Wonder what the missed tackle frequency is, as our defensive frailties have increased, the missed tackles seem to increase...... imagination or fact, anyone?

[Claretmatt4]

The tackling stat is a red herring. We've always defended as a unit and retained a narrow and compact shape. This forces teams to have pot shots or forces them wide and encourages them to play balls into the box where Mee and Tarks largely deal with it. We win the ball back by forcing the above and intercepting the ball, not by getting stuck in and breaking up the defensive shape.

Usually I'd be more optimistic than most but we've lost our spark of late. In the last seven games we've won two very unvonvincingly, one with the only shot on goal and the other against an abysmal Newcastle team. The other games we've looked dispondent (man u aside) and that is the big difference, we look like the team who started last season but we don't have Europa to blame this time.

A lot can change with a win or two but I think we need to see a spirit and attitude change first. If anyone can instill this it's Dyche.

[Vegas Claret]

"but a pass accuracy of just 68.3% is incredibly poor"

Surprised it's as high as that, we are ******* dreadful

[Spiral]

"but a pass accuracy of just 68.3% is incredibly poor"

Surprised it's as high as that, we are ******* dreadful

It's a technically accurate but still slightly misleading stat. The company linked in the Guardian article in post #1 derives its statistical analysis from raw data provided by the otherwise reputable OptaSports, who have been - as of the start of the 2019/20 season - collating data retrieved not only from sanctioned games, but also warm-ups and Soccer AM appearances. Our pass completion rate in warm-ups is definitely encouraging and has, rather mercifully, messaged our macro stats, and our keepie-uppie matrix actually gave me a full-on erection. STATS!!! STAAAAATS!!!!

[bfcjg]

I can cope with relegation goodness knows I am used to it after 50 years supporting the Clarets, however it is the manner of relegation this time if it happens. We have learnt nothing from previous seasons, we have gone backwards with tactics and style of play, we have seen teams sign players better then what they have to get into the team straight away or pressure existing players, but not us.
We have been found out and are so easy to play against these days we have the facilities now at Gawthorpe alas we thought that was enough.