I know we know this but still , interesting assessment in the guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/football/wh ... ion-battle

Can’t argue with any of that.

It's what failing to buy a first team player for 3 or 4 windows does for you.

If you stand still in football, you generally go backwards.

Sadly Mr Garlick has no one to blame but himself, many could see what was happening, or had ideas to help prevent it.

Seems Mike's ideas and plans, or lack of them has come back to bite us.

Let's just hope Sean Dyche can work another miracle with 1 hand behind his back.

So true.. but we never change anything to stop the slump.

Its only when the inevitable happens that we will all say told you so but people on here will still swear black is white

fair assesment, cant think of many teams worse than us at present.

It's only stating what we already know it's the excuses at the end of the season that will be rolling out of the club I am not looking forward to if we do drop through the trap door

The Guardian is one of the few papers you can trust to give an intelligent appraisal of things and that article is spot on in every sense. No sensationalism, no gloating or promoting an agenda, just plain facts, and when you read it it makes you realise more than ever...we are in deep sh!t at the moment.

I really don't think the board could do much about this. The cost of the players good enough to keep us in the PL is greater than we can afford.
The only way we could ever thrive in the PL is through the development and sale of our own players, and even then it wouldn't be easy for us.

The Guardian fails to note that we are always low down the list of total tackles made. This year is not an exception. Last year, we were fourth fewest tackles; Man United, Man City, and Bournemouth were fewer.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:17 pm

The cost of the players good enough to keep us in the PL is greater than we can afford.

I do not believe that to be the case. Our problem seems to be where we are shopping and what we appear to be looking for. Until he was injured, one player I have been impressed with is John McGinn at Villa. He would be a significant improvement on any of our central midfielders. He would have been well within out price range when he was signed. There will be plenty more like him out there if only those in charge of our recruitment would look outside the Stoke/Derby/WBA cast offs.

Guardian is spot on. We look to be running on empty.

I can't see us bringing anyone in this window who would make any kind of impact.

We are looking like the side we were pre Xmas 2018 /19 season. I predict relegation with 36 pts.

Riggs job appears to be bringing in players for our under 23 set up who are miles away from making a Premier league appearance. Looks like we are building a side to compete in league 1, not the Premier league

Herts Clarets wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:35 pm

I do not believe that to be the case. Our problem seems to be where we are shopping and what we appear to be looking for. Until he was injured, one player I have been impressed with is John McGinn at Villa. He would be a significant improvement on any of our central midfielders. He would have been well within out price range when he was signed. There will be plenty more like him out there if only those in charge of our recruitment would look outside the Stoke/Derby/WBA cast offs.

Yes, anyone could find individuals that might fit, but I was basing my comment on our wage bill in excess of £80 million. This is what we can't afford.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:17 pm

I really don't think the board could do much about this. The cost of the players good enough to keep us in the PL is greater than we can afford.

That's like only wanting to shop at Mark's and Spencer's for food, and then claiming you cant afford to eat like a king on your budget, so out of stubbornness will starve

There are several other places to shop where you can easily shop within your budget, and still eat like a king.

If you fail to plan, then plan to fail.

MACCA wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:04 pm

It's what failing to buy a first team player for 3 or 4 windows does for you.

If you stand still in football, you generally go backwards.

Sadly Mr Garlick has no one to blame but himself, many could see what was happening, or had ideas to help prevent it.

Seems Mike's ideas and plans, or lack of them has come back to bite us.

Let's just hope Sean Dyche can work another miracle with 1 hand behind his back.

Please don't let Sean off the hook re transfers. He is integral to the whole decision making process and seems keen we only fish in a very small pond, then claims "it's a difficult market". No Sh*t Sherlock.

There are lots of players out there that would improve our first team, that would be happy to play Premier league football for 50k a week. Let's see who the teams around us sign this window.

If we can't afford players it probably because we've spent the last three windows emptying the wages pot on players that will never get near our first team.

A bit of an over-reaction by the Guardian, had we beaten Aston Villa all would have beeen well. A couple of victories and we will be back on course for mid-table.

The statistic on completed passes is a damning one. It just demonstrates the folly of letting 4 or 5 windows open and close without adding some quality to the squad, especially in those vital midfield positions. If we go down we then face replacing the whole of the midfield instead of adding just 1 or 2.

Rather than carry out a complete rebuilding job Dyche will probably move on.

Of course we are in a relegation battle

Another area I feel we've shown weakness is our tactical naivety. In this league a team like us is going to be beaten because the opposition simply have too many better players. However, this season there have been too many occasions where teams have beaten us because they had a plan and it appeared that we didn't. Palace at home, Everton away, then both Man Utd and Villa at home; all games where I thought we could pick up some useful points that resulted in none at all. The fixture at Everton being the most frustrating as there was a side frightened to make a mistake in front of a new manager but we allowed them time and room on the ball and had settled for a 0-0 long before the winner came. Sadly, I don't expect any master plan over the next few games and definetly concur with the views of The Guardian newspaper.

Sproggy wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:51 pm

There are lots of players out there that would improve our first team, that would be happy to play Premier league football for 50k a week. Let's see who the teams around us sign this window.

If we can't afford players it probably because we've spent the last three windows emptying the wages pot on players that will never get near our first team.

Who then? Let’s have some examples of players that would improve us and accept the pay structure.....

A blind man on a galloping horse could have told us that. But not to worry!!!!!!

CleggHall wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:22 pm

A bit of an over-reaction by the Guardian, had we beaten Aston Villa all would have beeen well. A couple of victories and we will be back on course for mid-table.

Similarly, had we lost at Bournemouth we would now be in the bottom three, I believe. This is most certainly a relegation scrap that I mentioned on a post a couple of weeks ago I can't see us getting out of. I've been attending matches long enough to know when things are 'not right' and an air of despondency seems to have settled around the club. Felt it against Villa and then reinforced despite a win in the FA Cup last weekend.

I’d say there are at least 10 teams facing an uphill task to stay in the premier league. Nothing to see here, it is the same every year and a similar type of at least 10 teams....

As I posted on another thread, there are plenty of teams struggling at the moment!

Hibsclaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:32 pm

Who then? Let’s have some examples of players that would improve us and accept the pay structure.....

Aaron Mooy would improve our midfield and Philip Billing at 16m wasn't out of our reach and would play well alongside Cork or Westwood.
Neil Maupay would have been an upgrade to our front line for 14m. Brentford payed 1.6m for him. Rumours are he's back off to france for 40m so that would have been exceptional ROI for Mike. When Brighton were considering him, we were lining up Peter Crouch.
How about Matty Cash, 22, right back at Forest playing really well in the Championship and is about half Phil Bardsley's age? Or Luke Ayling who Leeds signed for less than Matt Lowton cost.
If pace is your thing, Lys Mousset cost Sheff Utd 10m from Bournemouth. I even think Che Adams would be an upgrade on Ashley Barnes and offer something a bit different.

Premier League clubs get about 25x the amount of money that clubs get in the Dutch or Belgian Leagues. Are you suggesting that there isn't a single player in in either of those that would improve us? Or the Polish, Swedish, Danish or Norwegian leagues that attract even less money? Not one?

It's utter nonsense to think our first team can't be improved within the income we get from being in the Premier League. If it isn't improved it's our choice because we're either not capable of scouting players or we've burned the available budget on bench warmers.

What’s most alarming for me is the wage bill. It’s not massive by premier league terms but when we’ve not really improved the first eleven for quite some time, it’s surprising how high it is.

Around 14 tackles a game on average

Just over 1 per player

Words fail me

Sproggy I am with you-there are many ways to skin a cat. We are in the PL and punching well above our weight. A miracle each time we stay up, when bigger spenders are getting relegated.

But for us to survive we simply need to act and behave SMART. Be more streetwise than our competitors.This does not involve spending big sums but having the right personnel and thinking at the top to support our manager. You give some great examples of what players have been on the market. Aaron Moyes a great example-now on loan at Brighton. Our recruitment is dreadful. We did appear to be more streetwise under Cotterill and to a lesser degree under Howe.

Instead all we hear are spiralling wages and player fees. How has Chris Wilder done it. Their players are a collection of lower league footballers but there is a spirit and grit there that is seeing them being rarely beat

When I hear the Chairman say we should rejoice in what we have achieved in the last 3-4 years, I get the feeling of acceptance that we might not be in the PL next season. We seem to forget too that we have lost some quality players that never got replaced-Barton, Marney, Arfield, De Four

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:18 pm

How has Chris Wilder done it. Their players are a collection of lower league footballers but there is a spirit and grit there that is seeing them being rarely beat.

I don't think it's a fair comparison when they've been in the league for half a season.

If they don't get into the Europa league next season then that's the time to compare.

A good article and I tend to agree. The next 5 or 6 weeks are pivotal. Come out of that with 28-30 points it eases things a bit, but come out with anything less and we are in real trouble

Sproggy wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:56 pm

Aaron Mooy would improve our midfield and Philip Billing at 16m wasn't out of our reach and would play well alongside Cork or Westwood.
Neil Maupay would have been an upgrade to our front line for 14m. Brentford payed 1.6m for him. Rumours are he's back off to france for 40m so that would have been exceptional ROI for Mike. When Brighton were considering him, we were lining up Peter Crouch.
How about Matty Cash, 22, right back at Forest playing really well in the Championship and is about half Phil Bardsley's age? Or Luke Ayling who Leeds signed for less than Matt Lowton cost.
If pace is your thing, Lys Mousset cost Sheff Utd 10m from Bournemouth. I even think Che Adams would be an upgrade on Ashley Barnes and offer something a bit different.

Premier League clubs get about 25x the amount of money that clubs get in the Dutch or Belgian Leagues. Are you suggesting that there isn't a single player in in either of those that would improve us? Or the Polish, Swedish, Danish or Norwegian leagues that attract even less money? Not one?

It's utter nonsense to think our first team can't be improved within the income we get from being in the Premier League. If it isn't improved it's our choice because we're either not capable of scouting players or we've burned the available budget on bench warmers.

Spot on.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:49 pm

What’s most alarming for me is the wage bill. It’s not massive by premier league terms but when we’ve not really improved the first eleven for quite some time, it’s surprising how high it is.

Its scary to think what the likes of Hart, Drinkwater, Gibson, Vydra and Wells have taken in wages for little or no return. That's where all the money is going.

Greeny wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:46 pm

Please don't let Sean off the hook re transfers. He is integral to the whole decision making process and seems keen we only fish in a very small pond, then claims "it's a difficult market". No Sh*t Sherlock.

Oh dont worry, I'm not blind.
I can see the set up, tactics, approach and other weaknesses, and that's down to the manager.

However it's also clear our club do absolutely everything on the cheap, do the absolute minimum and usually only when its mandatory, and are so reactive is infuriating.


I see it that they both have played their part in us not moving forwards for 2 seasons, however I see it as we are here ( in the premier league and have stayed here this long ) because of Dyche and his work, rather than Mike Garlick.

Have we ever really had a good window under Mr Garlicks when he's been the single man at the helm?

MACCA wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:46 pm

That's like only wanting to shop at Mark's and Spencer's for food, and then claiming you cant afford to eat like a king on your budget, so out of stubbornness will starve

There are several other places to shop where you can easily shop within your budget, and still eat like a king.

If you fail to plan, then plan to fail.

Not really, our players have never been M&S (as you put it) quality. The nucleus that got us into the PL were on relatively low pay. I'm prepared to bet that their wages have gone up roughly at the same rate as their athleticism has reduced.

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:28 pm

A good article and I tend to agree. The next 5 or 6 weeks are pivotal. Come out of that with 28-30 points it eases things a bit, but come out with anything less and we are in real trouble

All depends on how the others do as well.

jrgbfc wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:40 pm

Its scary to think what the likes of Hart, Drinkwater, Gibson, Vydra and Wells have taken in wages for little or no return. That's where all the money is going.

All seems very contradictory when we hear how well run and sensibly cautious we are / have been. It doesn’t quite add up.

Undoubtedly an overly simplistic critique and lots we are not party to. It’s frustrating to hear the poor tale when we’ve blatantly not been quite as sensible with our cash as we might have been.

Is it me or have QPR had Wells on the cheap.A two year loan with no fee ?????

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:06 pm

Is it me or have QPR had Wells on the cheap.A two year loan with no fee ?????

Probably only paying 50% of his wage as well. Great deal for them, more money down the drain for us.

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:06 pm

Is it me or have QPR had Wells on the cheap.A two year loan with no fee ?????

This is the one I really don't understand. We bought Wells to sit on the bench at about £5m, punt him out on loan and buy a bench replacement in Vydra at double the cost.

Makes you wonder who was negotiating for us. Not as if he has not worked for them either. Think he has a total of 17 goals (including international) this season. Then we claim poverty. There is enough money in the Championship to have got a decent fee and then we would have saved ALL his wages

Bit like trying tom sell your house but you actually let someone live in it for two years and they only pay you half the monthly mortgage

Something stinks about our deals and dealings.I am not saying agents are paying Burnley to get their players moving for fees etc but serious questions need to be asked, the Drinkwater deal for example he was unfit when we signed him so what was the point, he injured himself away from the pitch and could have been returned but no, we get him back to some sort of fitness with no intention of playing him and he leaves the club, why sign Wells when he had an ankle operation who benefited from that financially the player ? the agent ? BFC ? employees of BFC ?

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:17 pm

I really don't think the board could do much about this. The cost of the players good enough to keep us in the PL is greater than we can afford.

I used to agree with this, but after endless shambolic windows where we spend over the odds on benchwarmers I'm increasingly coming to the view that this is a tired old line trotted out to cover for Mike Rigg's laziness or ineptitude in the transfer market.

The best two fresh faces we've had over the last few years, in terms of footballing ability are Dwight McNeil, a youth player who was set to be loaned out to the lower leagues until sheer fluke & injury made his selection mandatory- despite impressing in the Europa qualifiers he would never have got a game otherwis....oh and Steven Defour, signed on the recommendation of someone on this very board for a fee of £8m. And yes, he had an injury record, yes his body broke down- but it broke down spectacularly fast and hard and recovered rather fast too, and we can question his attitude if we want given he wanted to leave at the end but ask yourself this- if you were a player with a history of a couple injuries, and a club has focus on "DycheFit" training and being physical and intense and running lots and tackling hard...do you not think your body would break down a lot in training and you'd get injured and ****** off? And you can say "But that means he didn't fit the framework, shouldn't sign someone if they don't fit"- it's not a matter of mentality or ethos if your body keeps tearing muscle or pulling muscles, and a manager's job is to manage players. To adapt to them sometimes. And adjust training if you have a highly technically gifted player whose body can't handle the same rigorous physical training as the rest.
Yes the Premier League is physical. But we are, by our own proud self-admission, focused on being as physical and as intense and as fit as possible. We rack up so many wear & tear injuries, Barnes is out through overuse, and it seems to never occur that maybe we get all these niggles after niggles after niggles due to overtraining and overly rigid attitudes to training. We lack imagination in the transfer window. But it's budget, not overly rigid attitudes to recruitment that mean we won't venture abroad. If one, just one, of our regular first 11 is injured we tend to struggle, and are generally bereft of ideas and creative options in general besides McNeil. But it's the realities of the league and bad luck, not an overly rigid attitude to football.

We've gone from being an organised, disciplined, efficient club, to dogmatic, inflexible, and narrow. And it shows in every area of the football, and it seemed to turn as soon as we got into Europe. As if we reached the limit of our ambitions, thought "job done" and settled back into knowing our place, or as if we felt overtaxed and overstretched by this big new step so returned to what we knew was familiar and stuck with it. I've never been a boo boy for the club, I have never in all my years booed our team, our manager, chanted "____ out" or any of that. And for years, Dyche's decisions always seemed like the right one to me- whether in a match or off the pitch. He was always on it. But this has changed, the club is the most rigidly inflexibly narrowminded I've ever known it be. We're pathologically afraid to take a risk or experiment or step outside our comfort zone even if the formula is failing. We survived through sheer luck of McNeil's emergence last year, coupled with Heaton's return providing a confidence boost to the defence regardless of Hart's admirable if unfortunate performances. And McNeil was a forced change, we won't get that lucky again. We're big on analytics and statistical data, and yet look at the stats. We've gone from being the club that always makes blocks and tackles, to the fewest tackles in the league. Our passing has never been tiki-taka but we're at an all time low since 2016. We can barely find a shot on goal.

And yet one area in analytics we never seem to look is the transfer market. There's players in foreign leagues, with statistical data available, who you can point to and say they have solid performance metrics, and we daren't take a punt. And before you talk prices or wages- just a cursory glance on transfermarkt and you'll see dozens or hundreds of players in La Liga, Ligue Une, Serie A or the Bundesliga within our price range. If you want me to name a specific one- Iker Munain at Athletic Bilbao, once tipped to be Spanish Messi but currently valued at around half a million LESS than Chris Wood, 27yo Spanish player scored 20% of his team's goals, 4 in 13, not lived up to the youth hype, not a worldbeater but neither are we- can play striker, attacking mid or either wing, good ball retention, pass rate, and also defensive blocking percentages. Or Unai Lopez at his same club- 24yo centre mid who can deputise wide right, good pass rate and solid set-piece connection rate, decent assist tally for a defensively minded player, valued at just £2.7m. I'm not a professional scout, I only have access to simple statistical data from football sites, and I'm absolutely taking a punt. I'm not claiming I can do a better job, and hell maybe we ARE doing analytics on players abroad and weighing up options, but I doubt it given we won't take a punt on so much as our own squad players anymore let alone transfer policy.
And transfers is exactly why I'm specifying Athletic Bilbao players. They ONLY sign Basque players. Basque region or ancestral connection. The most conservative transfer policy in football. And yet they've never been relegated from La Liga. The other reason I bring them up? Like us, they're a club who don't score many, don't concede many, defensively minded and compact. But they're currently comfortably 8th in La Liga, 2 points off 5th. The dismissing of foreign clubs/players outside the Big Sides has to end, and Bilbao with such a cautious recruitment policy and match setup are an obvious team either worth looking to emulate in terms of running things, or, shock-horror, the players they have. Their main advantage over us is a much more established youth setup- which is an easy option to emulate if we're just willing to give more youngsters chances like they do, but we aren't, not unless our hand is 100% forced. And if we won't look abroad for calculated gambles, won't spend fees for PL-quality players in the English leagues, and won't give youngsters a chance unless we're out of options, our fate's inevitable and we can't keep blaming the market when we go down. We have to show the bravery to step back outside our comfort zone while well-drilled & efficient, rather than over-drilled & dogmatic, in every area of the club.

Could not be bothered to read all of that but in terms of Defour the only reason we got him for £8m was because of his injury record....and unfortunately it did not improve in his time at Burnley or from the sounds of it at his current club either.

Defour was a great player - he brought the very best out of Cork too (and vice versa)....but you cannot say that his time at the club was an overall success given how few games he played....I think it worked out at a cost to the club of £400k per game - and as good as he was he wasn’t worth that !!

TVC15 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:47 pm

Defour was a great player - he brought the very best out of Cork too (and vice versa)....but you cannot say that his time at the club was an overall success given how few games he played....I think it worked out at a cost to the club of £400k per game - and as good as he was he wasn’t worth that !!

I think it probably was worth it actually!

Both financially and for the wonder moments, not to mention the unification of the singing...."we've got Defour"

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:15 pm

This is the one I really don't understand. We bought Wells to sit on the bench at about £5m, punt him out on loan and buy a bench replacement in Vydra at double the cost.

That's because Wells had no real track record in the Championship, but Vydra had.

Who at Burnley FC thought that Nahki Wells was a Premier League footballer ?

IanMcL wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

I think it probably was worth it actually!

Both financially and for the wonder moments, not to mention the unification of the singing...."we've got Defour"

Well it was definitely worth £400k for that goal at United - and I was singing that song at the top of my voice and driving my daughter crazy for the next few weeks !

Don’t know the full story about the extra year option we took but if we had any say in the matter it seems madness that we agreed to it.

Anyway like you say let’s put money aside (sorry !) and remember Defour for the good times as he was absolute quality

randomclaret2 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:04 pm

Who at Burnley FC thought that Nahki Wells was a Premier League footballer ?

F knows but they must have been having a bad day. There's no excuse. Shocking.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:15 pm

This is the one I really don't understand. We bought Wells to sit on the bench at about £5m, punt him out on loan and buy a bench replacement in Vydra at double the cost.

The Wells/Vydra 4th choice option went wrong.

We wanted shut of Vydra, Wells would have been cheap 4th choice, with the bonus of a fee and Vydeas wages saved

Howecer, we couldn't shift him, so had to shift Wells at basically any cost so we wasn't stuck with 2 players not being played, good enough and taking up wages.

Once it gets late, we wasnt in any position to haggle with a club wanting Wells, at risk of him being stuck here.

It's been a big costly mess