The Trial of Christine Keeler

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Hipper
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The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by Hipper » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:46 pm

Anybody been watching this?

I know it's been written by a respected writer but it comes across as a kind of justification for Keeler's actions. She is a simple girl who is manipulated by all sorts of wicked men - Ward, Profumo, the press and her agent all of whom want something from her. And she's really a good girl who wants to use the money she gets from the her stories to help her mother.

All this may be true of course but from what I've read the biggest victim (and the most interesting character) of this whole episode was Stephen Ward. He was around 50 years old at the time but is played by someone who appears a lot younger.

Still, I've learned one thing. Profumo was married to the lovely Valery Hobson!

warksclaret
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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by warksclaret » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:58 pm

Yes been watching it. Have a vested interest as I grew up around Stratford On Avon and when I was at school the scandal broke out in the media

fidelcastro
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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:03 pm

Wasn't perfumo much older too? The guy playing him doesn't look THAT old.

It's good telly though, despite the artistic licence.

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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by AlargeClaret » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:13 pm

Not a bad effort actually though the Ward age thing was a bit odd and they’ve been a bit over sympathetic to Keeler who was a prostitute rented out by Ward albeit at the higher end of things . It’s a fascinating bit of history though .

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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:16 pm

Stephen Ward certainly had a past before joining the Clarets ;)

FactualFrank
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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by FactualFrank » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:17 pm

Did anybody watch, "Murder Trial: The Disappearance of Margaret Fleming"?

martin_p
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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by martin_p » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:20 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:03 pm
Wasn't perfumo much older too? The guy playing him doesn't look THAT old.

It's good telly though, despite the artistic licence.
The actor playing him is four or five years older than Profumo was at the the time.

fidelcastro
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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:23 pm

martin_p wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:20 pm
The actor playing him is four or five years older than Profumo was at the the time.
Seriously?

Perfumo must have aged quickly then!

:shock:

Hipper
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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by Hipper » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:26 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:13 pm
Not a bad effort actually though the Ward age thing was a bit odd and they’ve been a bit over sympathetic to Keeler who was a prostitute rented out by Ward albeit at the higher end of things . It’s a fascinating bit of history though .
It's not clear that Keeler was a prostitute. Ward was accused and found guilty of living off immoral earnings but apparently (according to Wiki) those alleged earnings were small in proportion to what he earned as an osteopath.

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2013/ ... o-50-years

Bosscat
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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by Bosscat » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:27 pm

Profumo was 46 when he 1st met Christine Keeler...

Ben Miles is 53.....

fidelcastro
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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:32 pm

Bosscat wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:27 pm
Profumo was 46 when he 1st met Christine Keeler...

Ben Miles is 53.....
The real Profumo looked a darn sight older than that!

In my opinion, of course.

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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by Bosscat » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:40 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:32 pm
The real Profumo looked a darn sight older than that!

In my opinion, of course.
To be honest Christine Keeler always looked older than 18 too ;) .

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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:46 pm

Bosscat wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:40 pm
To be honest Christine Keeler always looked older than 18 too ;) .
Yes indeed.

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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by AlargeClaret » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:51 pm

Hipper wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:26 pm
It's not clear that Keeler was a prostitute. Ward was accused and found guilty of living off immoral earnings but apparently (according to Wiki) those alleged earnings were small in proportion to what he earned as an osteopath.

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2013/ ... o-50-years
She wasn’t exactly a street walker but Ward was very well connected indeed and lived in a very louche scene ,presumed it was more for his ego than his wallet that he pimped CK out to the great ,good and not so good .

Hipper
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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by Hipper » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:49 pm

FactualFrank wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:17 pm
Did anybody watch, "Murder Trial: The Disappearance of Margaret Fleming"?
Yes, I've just watched both episodes, the second on the iplayer. Have you seen the second part? If not I won't discuss it until you have.

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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by FactualFrank » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:54 pm

Hipper wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:49 pm
Yes, I've just watched both episodes, the second on the iplayer. Have you seen the second part? If not I won't discuss it until you have.
Yeah. For some reason, the second part was shown directly after, but on BBC Scotland - it didn't appear to be shown on the standard BBC until the day after.

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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by warksclaret » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:26 pm

He was "no looker". A slimmer version of Hitler with a small tache from memory

Hipper
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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by Hipper » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:45 pm

FactualFrank wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:54 pm
Yeah. For some reason, the second part was shown directly after, but on BBC Scotland - it didn't appear to be shown on the standard BBC until the day after.
Well, I tried to put myself in the position of the jurors with the evidence presented and I reckon I would have difficulty saying they were guilty.

The most incriminating items were the Regents Hotel invoice and two letters. I would have liked to have seen that explored more. There isn't a satisfactory explanation and it would certainly be understandable if Fleming had been murdered. But equally it could have been used if she had fallen down the stairs accidentally and this accident was not reported, which is not murder. Or if she'd gone away like the couple said but wanted to continue the benefits claims.

Gripping stuff though and very sad. And what a lovely house! I bet they were popular with the neighbours for the state they maintained it in. It's surprising that that didn't bring the couple to local attention.

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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by FactualFrank » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:54 pm

Hipper wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:45 pm
Well, I tried to put myself in the position of the jurors with the evidence presented and I reckon I would have difficulty saying they were guilty.

The most incriminating items were the Regents Hotel invoice and two letters. I would have liked to have seen that explored more. There isn't a satisfactory explanation and it would certainly be understandable if Fleming had been murdered. But equally it could have been used if she had fallen down the stairs accidentally and this accident was not reported, which is not murder. Or if she'd gone away like the couple said but wanted to continue the benefits claims.

Gripping stuff though and very sad. And what a lovely house! I bet they were popular with the neighbours for the state they maintained it in. It's surprising that that didn't bring the couple to local attention.
I'm with you regarding the invoice and letter, that was a massive red flag. I thought the school teacher did very well when giving her evidence - didn't take any **** and didn't let her words get twisted. Just came out and said she was sure it wasn't her writing.

But overall there didn't appear to be enough evidence to me to come out with a guilty verdict. However, both their reactions when they were found guilty suggested they weren't surprised, so maybe did they do it.

Hipper
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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by Hipper » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:27 pm

I must admit I'm convinced they did do it, or he did it and she helped deal with the consequences. But that's more a gut feeling (and probably from the overall tone of the programme) rather then on the evidence (that we saw) presented in court.

I had a mentally handicapped brother who was a bit more capable then Margaret Fleming, but not by much. He could read and write and speak reasonably well although most people would find him hard to understand. He could also use his initiative and achieve things you wouldn't expect. He would however always need a measure of support. What seems shocking to me in this case is that for seventeen years no-one in authority took an interest in her.

And what was laughable was when the man involved in this said she was now a gangmaster in Poland! I felt a bit sorry for the couple as they didn't seem that capable themselves. Perhaps they were once.

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Re: The Trial of Christine Keeler

Post by Pimlico_Claret » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:23 pm

Everyone looks older back in the day. My grandma holding me as a one week old baby looks about 70, she was in fact 54,same age as I am now and if my same age partner now looked as old as she did then, I'd run a mile.Fashions, hair, make up, etc makes a big difference to how people appeared.

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