ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

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dandeclaret
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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by dandeclaret » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:34 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:53 am
Why ? No need to play him with 2 other strikers available - and you could see why as was very very poor in the games he played - its called stubborness and our manager has quite a lot of it.
One man's stubbornness, is another man's belief.

Thankfully we've got the one who has the belief right managing our club, whilst the stubborn one refuses to see any positives within the club.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by houseboy » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:36 pm

FactualFrank wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:06 am
3-4 months out then. He will be missed.
Will he though? Not saying he won't but he hasn't done too much in the last couple of months. At least it will force Dyche's hand a bit because we can't play with one striker. JR might get an extended run. It might even make him play Vydra. Either way Barnes out could be a bit of a blessing in disguise because it means we will have to change something and it might make a major difference. It can't be any worse anyway. It might (stress might) mean we look for someone in the window.
Either way wish Barnesy all the best but he probably needed a rest anyway, he was looking awful tired of late.
Just hope nothing happens to Wood or we will need miracles to score goals just when we need them most.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:46 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:34 pm
One man's stubbornness, is another man's belief.

Thankfully we've got the one who has the belief right managing our club, whilst the stubborn one refuses to see any positives within the club.

I see plenty of positives for the club but nothing from the last 2 years - maybe when Dyche throws the towel in I just might get them back

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:55 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:46 pm
I see plenty of positives for the club but nothing from the last 2 years - maybe when Dyche throws the towel in I just might get them back
Who would you want instead of Dyche?

:?:

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by ecc » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:55 pm

If he's been playing it must have been sanctioned by our doctor. Lots of players continue playing with injuries especially towards the end of the season. But they're monitored.

Tarks had a problem with a hernia in 2018 and it was planned for him to have the op after the season's end. He was on Gareth Southgate's standby list but ended up having the op.

Blaming the manager in the situation is not right (in my humble opinion).

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by claretspice » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:56 pm

A blow as losing any player is, but its become increasingly obvious in recent weeks that Barnes' effectiveness has been hugely compromised. There's certainly a legitimate point to be made that Dyche has persisted too long with Barnes - apart from anything else, it can't have helped Rodriguez' confidence to find himself passed over in favour of persevering with a player who is hampered by injury and has scored twice since August.

It's a great opportunity for Rodriguez to get an understanding with Wood and it may be a blessing in disguise because Jay will help us play a slightly more refined style than the physical style that the presence of Barnes and Wood promotes. That approach had become increasingly exposed as predictable and one-dimensional as teams began to take steps to counteract it in recent months, and the time had come for a slight shift in the game plan regardless of injuries. As a result, this change may make us both easier on the eye and more effective.

As for reinforcements, I'd still say that extra strikers are only really needed after a midfielder has been recruited, and it probably remains a lower priority than a right back for me. We've got 3 senior strikers fit including Vydra, which is more than most clubs. You have a pool of strikers not only to offer options off the bench but also to allow for injuries, and with 3 senior strikers, including 2 who can play as a target man, we've still got more options at our disposal than many of our rivals. We also have McNeil and possibly even Brady who can operate in the 10 role, so they add extra valuable options.
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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by Burnley1989 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:57 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:40 am
It's an injury that often players can play through or one that needs rest, so I don't think it is a case of them leaving it so long. It came to a head recently when Barnes played his last game and said he was fit but he clearly wasn't. That's when they got the specialist in.
Players play through it a lot, and try and see the season out before surgery. It all depends how bad it is, but its very common

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:00 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:55 pm
Who would you want instead of Dyche?

:?:
Thomas Frank

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:01 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:00 pm
Thomas Frank
Who?

:?

bfcjg
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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by bfcjg » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:02 pm

If we stay up and with a decent loan or two we should, a fully fit reivigorated Barnes will genuinly be like a new signing.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:03 pm

ecc wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:55 pm
If he's been playing it must have been sanctioned by our doctor. Lots of players continue playing with injuries especially towards the end of the season. But they're monitored.

Tarks had a problem with a hernia in 2018 and it was planned for him to have the op after the season's end. He was on Gareth Southgate's standby list but ended up having the op.

Blaming the manager in the situation is not right (in my humble opinion).
Sorry it is firmly with the manager who will take advice from physio but also the player himself who maybe lied how it was feeling - but after watching Barnes for about 6 games i knew something was not right but did we change it - did we heck

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by Holtyclaret » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:03 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:30 pm
Oh here we go - we have played him while injured and everyone watching the games could tell he wasnt right and to be honest was shocking in some of those games
So Dyche wasn’t acting under advice from medical experts by playing him??? There is no way Dyche would ever play a player against the will of physio team/player/club doctor/surgeons advice.

Stop making stuff up to suit your agenda.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:04 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:01 pm
Who?

:?
Brentford boss

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:07 pm

Holtyclaret wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:03 pm
So Dyche wasn’t acting under advice from medical experts by playing him??? There is no way Dyche would ever play a player against the will of physio team/player/club doctor/surgeons advice.

Stop making stuff up to suit your agenda.
Did i say that ? Of course he would have been given ADVICE - its how then you use that advice

He flogged Barnes when other players could have played - why ?? because he is a stubborn bugger

And its not as though he was free scoring - in facr i cant remember his last goal.
Last edited by BOYSIE31 on Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:07 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:04 pm
Brentford boss
Brilliant suggestion!

Let’s take a chance on a manager with no premier league experience, therefore binning the manager who has kept us in the top division, even guiding us to the Europa League a couple of years ago!

Yeah, your idea has such great logic! :oops: :roll:

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by Holtyclaret » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:09 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:07 pm
Did i say that ? Of course he would have been given ADVICE - its how then you use that advice

He flogged Barnes when other players could have played - why ?? because he is a stubborn bugger
Rubbish

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:11 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:07 pm
Did i say that ? Of course he would have been given ADVICE - its how then you use that advice

He flogged Barnes when other players could have played - why ?? because he is a stubborn bugger
You should meet up with jrgbfc on Sunday he is fronting a protest outside the ground aimed at Dyche

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by jrgbfc » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:11 pm

As others have pointed out, it was a bit of a slap in the face for Jay Rod to keep picking an injured, horribly out of form Barnes ahead of him. I think this may be a blessing in disguise, lets face it Dyche would never have dropped Barnes otherwise.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by dandeclaret » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:11 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:46 pm
I see plenty of positives for the club but nothing from the last 2 years - maybe when Dyche throws the towel in I just might get them back
Well, I can help you. Here's some positives that you may have missed....

1) Burnley football club, one of the smallest towns to have a football club have for the last 2 years competed in the Premier League.
2) For the last 2 years, Burnley fans have been fortunate enough to watch some of the best players to play for this club in the last 40 years.
3) In the last 2 years the club have posted a positive set of accounts, which have allowed for further investment both on the pitch, in improved contracts for key players and off the field in terms of facilites and involvement in the community.
4) In the last 2 years Burnley Football Club have finished higher up the league ladder than Blackburn, Preston, Leeds, Bolton, Blackpool, Wigan and any other local clubs that you, or they may class as rivals.
5) In the last 2 years, Dwight McNeil has progressed from the youth ranks, to become a player most Burnley fans seem to enjoy watching week in week out, and think he might be somebody who can progress further.
6) In the last 2 years, James Tarkowski, Nick Pope, Tom Heaton and Jack Cork have all received England international call ups, something that 10 years ago would have been unthinkable for Burnley.

A couple of things a previous manager said are pretty apt here.

1) They have champagne tastes on beer money
2) Two men look out from behind prison bars, one sees the gutter, the other sees the stars.


And at that time, our centre halves were Arthur Gnohere and Graham Branch.
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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:12 pm

Seems sensible to try to get him throigh the busy Christmas period then operate when we have a week off and a cup game.

Nothing to see here. Just a chance for Jay and Vydra.
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claretonthecoast1882
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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:13 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:11 pm
Well, I can help you. Here's some positives that you may have missed....

1) Burnley football club, one of the smallest towns to have a football club have for the last 2 years competed in the Premier League.
2) For the last 2 years, Burnley fans have been fortunate enough to watch some of the best players to play for this club in the last 40 years.
3) In the last 2 years the club have posted a positive set of accounts, which have allowed for further investment both on the pitch, in improved contracts for key players and off the field in terms of facilites and involvement in the community.
4) In the last 2 years Burnley Football Club have finished higher up the league ladder than Blackburn, Preston, Leeds, Bolton, Blackpool, Wigan and any other local clubs that you, or they may class as rivals.
5) In the last 2 years, Dwight McNeil has progressed from the youth ranks, to become a player most Burnley fans seem to enjoy watching week in week out, and think he might be somebody who can progress further.
6) In the last 2 years, James Tarkowski, Nick Pope, Tom Heaton and Jack Cork have all received England international call ups, something that 10 years ago would have been unthinkable for Burnley.

A couple of things a previous manager said are pretty apt here.

1) They have champagne tastes on beer money
2) Two men look out from behind prison bars, one sees the gutter, the other sees the stars.


And at that time, our centre halves were Arthur Gnohere and Graham Branch.
Yeah but apart from all that - nothing right ? :D

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by jrgbfc » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:13 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:11 pm
You should meet up with jrgbfc on Sunday he is fronting a protest outside the ground aimed at Dyche
Feel free to join us, you're the one who seems obsessed by the idea?

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:14 pm

jrgbfc wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:11 pm
As others have pointed out, it was a bit of a slap in the face for Jay Rod to keep picking an injured, horribly out of form Barnes ahead of him. I think this may be a blessing in disguise, lets face it Dyche would never have dropped Barnes otherwise.
Except for the fact that Barnes has been used from the bench in certain games recently.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:14 pm

jrgbfc wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:13 pm
Feel free to join us, you're the one who seems obsessed by the idea?
I am there if you get a backbone and start it, can't think of anything funnier in the town prior to the match. Lets us know the details



Pickkkkkkkkk Vydraaaaaaaa

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:16 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:07 pm
Brilliant suggestion!

Let’s take a chance on a manager with no premier league experience, therefore binning the manager who has kept us in the top division, even guiding us to the Europa League a couple of years ago!

Yeah, your idea has such great logic! :oops: :roll:
Neither did Wilder until this season - next ?

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by Andreshotboots » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:16 pm

I think we all just need to chill out and see what happens this month before making judgement. I, along with everybody else am becoming worried with the squad situation. Barnes now out, JBG and Brady seemingly always injured, Hedrick not committing to a new contract, Vydra and Gibson not being able to buy a start, ageing squad in other areas.

But, in their defence, our board are not stupid. They are all very successful business people in their own right and they will know there's a feeling of unrest about. They will also know that if they fail to back the manager, and we do get relegated this will have a massive financial impact, both Corporate and season tickets etc.

I'm prepared to wait until the 1st of February before making a judgement. As I've said on another thread, I just have a feeling this window will be busier than what any of us were expecting...
Last edited by Andreshotboots on Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by HarryPottsDesk » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:17 pm

Hi BOYSIE31,
It's apparent from what you post on here that you know a great deal about how a Premier League football Club should be run.
It's frustrating that the club don't make use of your expertise.
What is it that you do for a living?

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:17 pm

jrgbfc wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:11 pm
As others have pointed out, it was a bit of a slap in the face for Jay Rod to keep picking an injured, horribly out of form Barnes ahead of him. I think this may be a blessing in disguise, lets face it Dyche would never have dropped Barnes otherwise.
Yep agree with all this but the messiah cannot do any wrong with some people on here

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by claretspice » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:19 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:11 pm
Well, I can help you. Here's some positives that you may have missed....

1) Burnley football club, one of the smallest towns to have a football club have for the last 2 years competed in the Premier League.
2) For the last 2 years, Burnley fans have been fortunate enough to watch some of the best players to play for this club in the last 40 years.
3) In the last 2 years the club have posted a positive set of accounts, which have allowed for further investment both on the pitch, in improved contracts for key players and off the field in terms of facilites and involvement in the community.
4) In the last 2 years Burnley Football Club have finished higher up the league ladder than Blackburn, Preston, Leeds, Bolton, Blackpool, Wigan and any other local clubs that you, or they may class as rivals.
5) In the last 2 years, Dwight McNeil has progressed from the youth ranks, to become a player most Burnley fans seem to enjoy watching week in week out, and think he might be somebody who can progress further.
6) In the last 2 years, James Tarkowski, Nick Pope, Tom Heaton and Jack Cork have all received England international call ups, something that 10 years ago would have been unthinkable for Burnley.

A couple of things a previous manager said are pretty apt here.

1) They have champagne tastes on beer money
2) Two men look out from behind prison bars, one sees the gutter, the other sees the stars.


And at that time, our centre halves were Arthur Gnohere and Graham Branch.
Some extremely fair points Dan and clearly you're on the right side of the argument given the protagonists and their respective arguments.

However, we've got to be wary of complacency. The achievement of the club up to Christmas 2017 was extraordinary, but since then things have begun to slip a little bit and there is a reasonable fear that we're in danger of not capitalising on the fantastic platform we created for ourselves. Results have not been as good, the sense that we're building something on the pitch replaced by a suspicion that we're happy to allow the rise and fall of this team to take its course, and the aesthetic quality of the football has also deteriorated. Just as Matt Lowton can't escape questions about his current form by pointing to the fact he played out of his skin in the autumn of 2017, nor can the club rest on its achievements.

As so often in these discussions, there's a balanced middle ground between the extremes.
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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:20 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:16 pm
Neither did Wilder until this season - next ?
Wilder got Sheffield United promoted... obviously he deserves the opportunity to stay and try and compete, just like we did with Dyche!

That's vastly different from changing the manager for one managing in the championship, and a rookie one to boot!

You don't half post some drivel!

:roll:

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:24 pm

HarryPottsDesk wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:17 pm
Hi BOYSIE31,
It's apparent from what you post on here that you know a great deal about how a Premier League football Club should be run.
It's frustrating that the club don't make use of your expertise.
What is it that you do for a living?
8-)

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:25 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:20 pm
Wilder got Sheffield United promoted... obviously he deserves the opportunity to stay and try and compete, just like we did with Dyche!

That's vastly different from changing the manager for one managing in the championship, and a rookie one to boot!

You don't half post some drivel!

:roll:
Ok i take your view without being nasty - so who would you want as Dyche will not be here forever you know /

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by dandeclaret » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:25 pm

What does capitalising mean Spice? We're in the bottom 6 in terms of expected finishing position each season. The club are top of that league table at the moment. Recent form hasn't been good, but the team are still at the absolute top of their expected finishing position.

Capitalising may just not be possible with a club that is run, in my optinion, properly. EG, remaining a key part of the community, remaining solvent, and evolving the whole club gradually as time goes by. Mistakes are inevitible when running any business, but I would say that Burnley continue to make fewer mistakes than almost every other football club in this country. The outcome of this is a club that if you were to line the resources, size, scope etc of all 91 clubs remaining in the league, I suspect Burnley would be higher than their expected finishing position than just about every other club in the country, and with an infrastructure to sustain the club that is also a long way above what you'd expect at a club like Burnley.

I see it less as resting on morals, and more a continuation of making right, tough decisions, in what is an increasingly uneven and incompatible environment.

EDIT - to add - I do appreciate that this is a view from afar, I have said previously, I suspect I would not appreciate the football that is being played at present if I was to be watching every week. And that's where these discussions can have their foundations altered.
Last edited by dandeclaret on Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:28 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:25 pm
Ok i take your view without being nasty - so who would you want as Dyche will not be here forever you know /
I don't want a change of manager.

When he does eventually leave, I'll look at who is available at that time and make a realistic but sensible suggestion.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:29 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:11 pm
Well, I can help you. Here's some positives that you may have missed....

1) Burnley football club, one of the smallest towns to have a football club have for the last 2 years competed in the Premier League.
2) For the last 2 years, Burnley fans have been fortunate enough to watch some of the best players to play for this club in the last 40 years.
3) In the last 2 years the club have posted a positive set of accounts, which have allowed for further investment both on the pitch, in improved contracts for key players and off the field in terms of facilites and involvement in the community.
4) In the last 2 years Burnley Football Club have finished higher up the league ladder than Blackburn, Preston, Leeds, Bolton, Blackpool, Wigan and any other local clubs that you, or they may class as rivals.
5) In the last 2 years, Dwight McNeil has progressed from the youth ranks, to become a player most Burnley fans seem to enjoy watching week in week out, and think he might be somebody who can progress further.
6) In the last 2 years, James Tarkowski, Nick Pope, Tom Heaton and Jack Cork have all received England international call ups, something that 10 years ago would have been unthinkable for Burnley.

A couple of things a previous manager said are pretty apt here.

1) They have champagne tastes on beer money
2) Two men look out from behind prison bars, one sees the gutter, the other sees the stars.


And at that time, our centre halves were Arthur Gnohere and Graham Branch.

And since then we have had 500 million quid - next

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:30 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:28 pm
I don't want a change of manager.

When he does eventually leave, I'll look at who is available at that time and make a realistic but sensible suggestion.
Watford with their love of anything from abroad just employed Nigel Pearson & West Ham had to suck up sacking David Moyes and ask him back. Both those managers would have been met with anger from the usuals on here but gives people an insight into what sort of names you could be looking at.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:31 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:29 pm
And since then we have had 500 million quid - next
Jesus let it go

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:33 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:31 pm
Jesus let it go
I knew the game was awash with cash, but blimey! :o

:D

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by dandeclaret » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:33 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:29 pm
And since then we have had 500 million quid - next
Now you're getting it, another positive. See, you can do it if you try. Good boy.
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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by Sproggy » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:33 pm

>evolving the whole club gradually as time goes by

Do you think we've done that successfully over the last 18 months?

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:34 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:28 pm
I don't want a change of manager.

When he does eventually leave, I'll look at who is available at that time and make a realistic but sensible suggestion.
Ha be quick as will be summer :?

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:35 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:30 pm
Watford with their love of anything from abroad just employed Nigel Pearson & West Ham had to suck up sacking David Moyes and ask him back. Both those managers would have been met with anger from the usuals on here but gives people an insight into what sort of names you could be looking at.
But he is not here forever and i have a feeling that this will be his last

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by fidelcastro » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:36 pm

BOYSIE31 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:34 pm
Ha be quick as will be summer :?
And you know this how?

:?

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by dandeclaret » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:39 pm

Sproggy wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:33 pm
>evolving the whole club gradually as time goes by

Do you think we've done that successfully over the last 18 months?
Yeah I do.

* We've not been bullied into selling our best players - those linked publicly, but also the advances that happen behind closed doors.
* Whilst it may not yet be yielding results, there's transformation in the scouting network. These things take time to fully embed and get working.
* The community side of the club have launched a number of initiatives, that are only really available because of the success the club has had on the pitch in the last 18 months.

18 months, in terms of a football club is also a very narrow window to be assessing a move forward, but yes, as shown above, I do believe that there is gradual improvement.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by claretspice » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:42 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:25 pm
What does capitalising mean Spice? We're in the bottom 6 in terms of expected finishing position each season. The club are top of that league table at the moment. Recent form hasn't been good, but the team are still at the absolute top of their expected finishing position.

Capitalising may just not be possible with a club that is run, in my optinion, properly. EG, remaining a key part of the community, remaining solvent, and evolving the whole club gradually as time goes by. Mistakes are inevitible when running any business, but I would say that Burnley continue to make fewer mistakes than almost every other football club in this country. The outcome of this is a club that if you were to line the resources, size, scope etc of all 91 clubs remaining in the league, I suspect Burnley would be higher than their expected finishing position than just about every other club in the country, and with an infrastructure to sustain the club that is also a long way above what you'd expect at a club like Burnley.

I see it less as resting on morals, and more a continuation of making right, tough decisions, in what is an increasingly uneven and incompatible environment.
Capitalising means looking for ways to compete in the transfer market, and looking to improve the product we offer to supporters. We've a lot of supporters now who are around 65 - they can trace the time they got hooked on Burnley back to the 60s. No-one is saying we should expect to replicate that success, but the broader point stands that a time when you are in the Premier League with a good team is a brilliant opportunity to build the next generation of supporters. We should be aiming to make hay in that respect for as long as we are in the league. One day we will get relegated - we have to expect the law of gravity - but running our strategy in a way that makes it a certainty would be a bad mistake. The combination of activity and PR at present lends the impression that we are simply waiting for time to take its toll. The season ticket pitch to supporters for next season is not one that drives enthusiasm and there appears to be an expectation of loyalty rather than a recognition that the club has to keep supporters engaged.

I fully accept your point about performance relative to resources, but you've got to fight your corner. I think we're in danger of creating a scenario in which we both fail to attract new supporters but also discourage existing ones, because even when we go down we're currently devaluing the attractiveness of then coming back up again. What is the point, if the football is going to be rubbish, the games against the top sides glorified exhibitions because we can't compete, and relegation sooner rather than later treated as an inevitability? And if there's no point in trying to get promoted, what exactly is the point at all? We had this sort of existential crisis in the late 70s and it did not end well.

I fully appreciate its a hard balance and its very easy from a far. But we can start by getting the PR right - it's dreadful at present, from manager, Chief Exec and PR manager, particularly on twitter - and then we need to at least try and identify a transfer strategy that might be successful, even if it presents an element of risk. At present, we're caught between taking no risk and refusing the accept the premiums that come with taking no risk,which is partly why we've not completed a transfer that could be fairly judged a success in improving the first eleven since August 2017 (note partly - partly it reflects the quality we've already got).

EDIT - just seen your point about the football, and its a good one. You were extremely vocal about it during the Cotterill era. That's a big part of the problem at present for sure, and it fuels the appetite for change. I do wonder whether Dyche has become a bit burnt out at Burnley - it happens. The style of football, the media comments about the transfer market - they increasingly evoke a man who has bunkered down, and I'm not sure it is to anyone's benefit at the minute.
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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by KRBFC » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:45 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:51 am
You really do post some absolute garbage don't you? I know you will be full of excitement this morning because you think you've found a new stick to beat the club with but you've got this one so ridiculously wrong.
Strange given you posted recently something about Barnes shouldn’t have been playing....
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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by dandeclaret » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:53 pm

claretspice wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:42 pm
Capitalising means looking for ways to compete in the transfer market, and looking to improve the product we offer to supporters. We've a lot of supporters now who are around 65 - they can trace the time they got hooked on Burnley back to the 60s. No-one is saying we should expect to replicate that success, but the broader point stands that a time when you are in the Premier League with a good team is a brilliant opportunity to build the next generation of supporters. We should be aiming to make hay in that respect for as long as we are in the league. One day we will get relegated - we have to expect the law of gravity - but running our strategy in a way that makes it a certainty would be a bad mistake. The combination of activity and PR at present lends the impression that we are simply waiting for time to take its toll. The season ticket pitch to supporters for next season is not one that drives enthusiasm and there appears to be an expectation of loyalty rather than a recognition that the club has to keep supporters engaged.

I fully accept your point about performance relative to resources, but you've got to fight your corner. I think we're in danger of creating a scenario in which we both fail to attract new supporters but also discourage existing ones, because even when we go down we're currently devaluing the attractiveness of then coming back up again. What is the point, if the football is going to be rubbish, the games against the top sides glorified exhibitions because we can't compete, and relegation sooner rather than later treated as an inevitability? And if there's no point in trying to get promoted, what exactly is the point at all? We had this sort of existential crisis in the late 70s and it did not end well.

I fully appreciate its a hard balance and its very easy from a far. But we can start by getting the PR right - it's dreadful at present, from manager, Chief Exec and PR manager, particularly on twitter - and then we need to at least try and identify a transfer strategy that might be successful, even if it presents an element of risk. At present, we're caught between taking no risk and refusing the accept the premiums that come with taking no risk,which is partly why we've not completed a transfer that could be fairly judged a success since August 2017 (note partly - partly it reflects the quality we've already got).
What does "Improve the product we offer to supports mean though spice?" Do you mean more attractive football? The flipside to that from a club, business, achievement perspective is that you're gambling something that is STILL performing towards the top end of reasonable expectation.

Attracting new supporters has happened. The club has virtually doubled it's supprter base in the last 10 years. Do you feel there is a large pool of untapped supporters out there that aren't attending regularly, and this is because of the football being played? I'd argue the opposite is probably likely, that the club is above the level of support naturally available for Burnley because of the opposition they are playing.

This comment though "I think we're in danger of creating a scenario in which we both fail to attract new supporters but also discourage existing ones, because even when we go down we're currently devaluing the attractiveness of then coming back up again. What is the point, if the football is going to be rubbish, the games against the top sides glorified exhibitions because we can't compete, and relegation sooner rather than later treated as an inevitability?" - this is the stark reality as the chasm of have's and have not's - even with the television money - continues to grow. This is why I stopped going. Even the Leicester dream scenario is one of a club that went bust, defaulted on payments and then got large foreign investment to go again. This is Burnley at the top end of their existence. This is as good as it gets, this is as bad as it gets too. You're right, relegation will see crowds drop - that's the same for every club, no matter whether they're playing the great football Swansea did for a while, or Stoke or Burnley more direct football. The longer you stay down, the more the crowds drop.... but then.... in time..... when you're winning, everybody wants the glorified exhibitions of a Man City or Chelsea, because the last time you played them is all forgotten, and battles with Birmingham, Preston, Leeds and all the other perennial championship clubs is the new norm, it will look exciting again.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by claretspice » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:06 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:53 pm
What does "Improve the product we offer to supports mean though spice?" Do you mean more attractive football? The flipside to that from a club, business, achievement perspective is that you're gambling something that is STILL performing towards the top end of reasonable expectation.

Attracting new supporters has happened. The club has virtually doubled it's supprter base in the last 10 years. Do you feel there is a large pool of untapped supporters out there that aren't attending regularly, and this is because of the football being played? I'd argue the opposite is probably likely, that the club is above the level of support naturally available for Burnley because of the opposition they are playing.

This comment though "I think we're in danger of creating a scenario in which we both fail to attract new supporters but also discourage existing ones, because even when we go down we're currently devaluing the attractiveness of then coming back up again. What is the point, if the football is going to be rubbish, the games against the top sides glorified exhibitions because we can't compete, and relegation sooner rather than later treated as an inevitability?" - this is the stark reality as the chasm of have's and have not's - even with the television money - continues to grow. This is why I stopped going. Even the Leicester dream scenario is one of a club that went bust, defaulted on payments and then got large foreign investment to go again. This is Burnley at the top end of their existence. This is as good as it gets, this is as bad as it gets too. You're right, relegation will see crowds drop - that's the same for every club, no matter whether they're playing the great football Swansea did for a while, or Stoke or Burnley more direct football. The longer you stay down, the more the crowds drop.... but then.... in time..... when you're winning, everybody wants the glorified exhibitions of a Man City or Chelsea, because the last time you played them is all forgotten, and battles with Birmingham, Preston, Leeds and all the other perennial championship clubs is the new norm, it will look exciting again.
Improving the product means exactly that. It means giving people reason to stay with it. It is partly the marketing of it, its partly tapping into what fans want. Its partly having a strategy to try and compete rather than being seen to surrender. It's partly the quality of the football and the other stuff that sits behind the "matchday experience". It's all the things that go to "the product", if i'm not in danger of tumbling into marketing speak.

As for attendances, I'm not sure I agree with your conclusions. I fully acccept that relegation is inevitable. But that isn't the same thing as accepting it, and not trying to find a way to compete, and it is that paralysis, the inference of surrender, that is currently a problem to the club in terms of connecting with supporters. As for the attendances of others - no-one is saying crows shouldn't be expected to drop after relegation. The question is whether, actually, those attendances reflect a longer term shift in support compared to before promotion. Swansea, Stoke (small samples, two seasons, admittedly) both suggest they've achieved that. So do Wigan on a longer term basis. I'm slightly concerned that we won't emulate that at the moment.

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:08 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:39 pm
Yeah I do.

* We've not been bullied into selling our best players - those linked publicly, but also the advances that happen behind closed doors.
* Whilst it may not yet be yielding results, there's transformation in the scouting network. These things take time to fully embed and get working.
* The community side of the club have launched a number of initiatives, that are only really available because of the success the club has had on the pitch in the last 18 months.

18 months, in terms of a football club is also a very narrow window to be assessing a move forward, but yes, as shown above, I do believe that there is gradual improvement.
The scouting ??? we first got promoted to the big league almost 11 years ago and still no foreign network in place

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Re: ARTICLE: Barnes to have hernia surgery

Post by BOYSIE31 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:14 pm

claretspice wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:42 pm
Capitalising means looking for ways to compete in the transfer market, and looking to improve the product we offer to supporters. We've a lot of supporters now who are around 65 - they can trace the time they got hooked on Burnley back to the 60s. No-one is saying we should expect to replicate that success, but the broader point stands that a time when you are in the Premier League with a good team is a brilliant opportunity to build the next generation of supporters. We should be aiming to make hay in that respect for as long as we are in the league. One day we will get relegated - we have to expect the law of gravity - but running our strategy in a way that makes it a certainty would be a bad mistake. The combination of activity and PR at present lends the impression that we are simply waiting for time to take its toll. The season ticket pitch to supporters for next season is not one that drives enthusiasm and there appears to be an expectation of loyalty rather than a recognition that the club has to keep supporters engaged.

I fully accept your point about performance relative to resources, but you've got to fight your corner. I think we're in danger of creating a scenario in which we both fail to attract new supporters but also discourage existing ones, because even when we go down we're currently devaluing the attractiveness of then coming back up again. What is the point, if the football is going to be rubbish, the games against the top sides glorified exhibitions because we can't compete, and relegation sooner rather than later treated as an inevitability? And if there's no point in trying to get promoted, what exactly is the point at all? We had this sort of existential crisis in the late 70s and it did not end well.

I fully appreciate its a hard balance and its very easy from a far. But we can start by getting the PR right - it's dreadful at present, from manager, Chief Exec and PR manager, particularly on twitter - and then we need to at least try and identify a transfer strategy that might be successful, even if it presents an element of risk. At present, we're caught between taking no risk and refusing the accept the premiums that come with taking no risk,which is partly why we've not completed a transfer that could be fairly judged a success in improving the first eleven since August 2017 (note partly - partly it reflects the quality we've already got).

EDIT - just seen your point about the football, and its a good one. You were extremely vocal about it during the Cotterill era. That's a big part of the problem at present for sure, and it fuels the appetite for change. I do wonder whether Dyche has become a bit burnt out at Burnley - it happens. The style of football, the media comments about the transfer market - they increasingly evoke a man who has bunkered down, and I'm not sure it is to anyone's benefit at the minute.



******* great post

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