Democrat Iowa Caucus farce ...

[Clarets4me]

It would appear that the first Democratic " primary " contest in the US Presidential Election has ended in chaos, still no reported results, Candidates hanging around for hours, no one seems to be in charge, an absolute joke ...

Labour Party : God ! We couldn't organise a p*** up in a brewery !

Democrats: Hold my crushed avocado toast & decaf skinny latte !

[dougcollins]

They'll be waiting for the Republicans to tell them what the results are.

[IanMcL]

Mr T will decide the result and Tweet it, so everyone knows the true outcome, no matter how many they count.

[Clarets4me]

As it's a problem with counting, I was wondering if Diane Abbott had been seconded to the Democratic party !

[BleedingClaret]

As it's a problem with counting, I was wondering if Diane Abbott had been seconded to the Democratic party !

She was falling asleep yesterday, in full view of the TV cameras, as she was directly behind the MP that was speaking, I was thinking sort yourself out Diane, but I then nodded of myself as it was Richard Burgon droning on in his Leeds Yorkshire accent.

[Clarets4me]

Mr T will decide the result and Tweet it, so everyone knows the true outcome, no matter how many they count.

Who do you favour for the next Labour leader, Ian ?

[IanMcL]

Who do you favour for the next Labour leader, Ian ?

Me

Tweet it and it shall come true!

[FCBurnley]

SNAFU and they want to run the country ?

[Clarets4me]

Me ... Tweet it and it shall come true!

" Vote Ian Mc to get Labour back " ??

[IanMcL]

" Vote Ian Mc to get Labour back " ??

See it is catching on already!

[Spiral]

Just a few little tidbits that are worth highlighting (sorry to pi$$ on the chips of anyone somehow finding entertainment in all this, but I don't judge! Whatever tingles your dingle), the count is organised not by the central DNC but by the affiliated Iowa democratic party - state level - and the chaos has come about by this year's introduction of an app being used to declare the counts, which went tits up resulting in the backup telephone lines used to declare counts becoming overwhelmed. Apparently the count and declaration process has also been expedited to cram it all into one day or something but I don't know for sure what's changed on that front. This kind of shambles is partly why I hope we stick to the old fashioned voting and counting mechanisms. Little bit of substance for the benefit of anyone opening this thread hoping for more than partisan hacks running on autopilot.

[dougcollins]

Bloody spoilsport.

[aggi]

Just a few little tidbits that are worth highlighting (sorry to pi$$ on the chips of anyone somehow finding entertainment in all this, but I don't judge! Whatever tingles your dingle), the count is organised not by the central DNC but by the affiliated Iowa democratic party - state level - and the chaos has come about by this year's introduction of an app being used to declare the counts, which went tits up resulting in the backup telephone lines used to declare counts becoming overwhelmed. Apparently the count and declaration process has also been expedited to cram it all into one day or something but I don't know for sure what's changed on that front. This kind of shambles is partly why I hope we stick to the old fashioned voting and counting mechanisms. Little bit of substance for the benefit of anyone opening this thread hoping for more than partisan hacks running on autopilot.

It's a bit of weird one though. The caucuses are very specifically not votes, they're indications of preferences. I don't really know why.

[thatdberight]

Town Halls with show of hands counted. Brilliant. Presumably they then send Paul Revere to relay the result. It's 2020 not 1783.

[Cryssys]

They'll be waiting for the Republicans to tell them what the results are.

Shouldn't that be the Russians?

[dougcollins]

Shouldn't that be the Russians?

Same thing isn't it?

[Spiral]

It's all very, very strange. A plain old paper ballot is the simple way of doing things. From what I can gather the logic behind the caucus method is to ascertain the platform that closest represents party members as a whole before sending delegates to vote proportionally for candidates meeting the viability threshold at the state convention, but I still don't fully understand it. Introduce technology into that mix and of course it'll go to pot. It seems to be more than a town hall with a show of hands; it sounds more like a town hall with a show of hands, musical chairs and speed dating.

[Spijed]

The trouble is with the USA is that you've essentially got fifty countries rolled into one as each State does things differently.

[Cryssys]

Same thing isn't it?

Bit like the Tories I suppose. Whatever happened to the report on Russian interference? The one that Boris suppressed before the election.

[Woodleyclaret]

The American voting system is even more boring than our inane Brexit threads.You buy your way to the White House so why pretend its democracy?

[Vegas Claret]

The American voting system is even more boring than our inane Brexit threads.You buy your way to the White House so why pretend its democracy?

you are out in the White house not bought, it's all for show

[AndrewJB]

They're trying to suppress Bernie Sanders.

[claretonthecoast1882]

They're trying to suppress Bernie Sanders.

Good, about time KFC was closed down

[Corky]

They're trying to suppress Bernie Sanders.

Look where that got them last time. They went with Hillary Clinton who couldn't even beat Trump. Just read Our Revolution by Sanders, well worth a read, but not if you're a 10 bob tory as you will be too thick to understand it

[AndrewJB]

Look where that got them last time. They went with Hillary Clinton who couldn't even beat Trump. Just read Our Revolution by Sanders, well worth a read, but not if you're a 10 bob tory as you will be too thick to understand it

They'd rather the country fail under Trump, than pay more tax under Sanders.

[tiger76]

Still confusion over the final tallies,but the picture is Joe Biden trailing badly in 4th,now it's only the 1st Caucus but the rumours are that he'll flop in NH next week and he's already playing catch-up.

The story of the night besides the technical issues,is Pete Buttigieg who's come from nowhere to claim the most delegates,sadly i can't see the US electing an openly gay president just yet,perhaps in 20-30 years time this will change.

The other real winner is Trump,all the attention has switched from his impeachment trial,and the spotlight is now on the Democrat's incompetence.

[Clarets4me]

They're trying to suppress Bernie Sanders.

That's what Trump's son has said, " They're trying to fix it " ... Democrat Corporate donors don't want Sanders !

[KateR]

They'd rather the country fail under Trump, than pay more tax under Sanders.

just how is America failing under Trump, what exactly is your yardstick for measuring the failure of this country Andrew?

[Spiral]

just how is America failing under Trump, what exactly is your yardstick for measuring the failure of this country Andrew?

If your yardstick for not failing is, say, 'not collapsing like the Soviet Union', then I suppose you might contest the claim that America is failing. Increasing wealth disparity, spiralling healthcare costs, sluggish wage growth, rollback of environmental protections, mindless international diplomacy and geopolitical strategy, isolationism, harmful trade war, spiralling deficit, the undermining of basic tenets of democracy, inviting foreign interference in elections, policy and dog whistles which embolden ethno-state sentiment. Can any of those things be considered success? And this is during a boom period. His actions and behaviour doesn't bear thinking about in the event of an economic downturn or worse yet, an invasion of another country. Honestly, if you need to ask that question by this point the chances are you aren't ever going to be receptive to the answer. I don't intend to debate Trump in this thread, by the way. He's a symptom of an aristocracy running rampant and without restraint.

[Spijed]

just how is America failing under Trump, what exactly is your yardstick for measuring the failure of this country Andrew?

Climate change?

[KateR]

If your yardstick for not failing is, say, 'not collapsing like the Soviet Union', then I suppose you might contest the claim that America is failing. Increasing wealth disparity, spiralling healthcare costs, sluggish wage growth, rollback of environmental protections, mindless international diplomacy and geopolitical strategy, isolationism, harmful trade war, spiralling deficit, the undermining of basic tenets of democracy, inviting foreign interference in elections, policy and dog whistles which embolden ethno-state sentiment. Can any of those things be considered success? And this is during a boom period. His actions and behaviour doesn't bear thinking about in the event of an economic downturn or worse yet, an invasion of another country. Honestly, if you need to ask that question by this point the chances are you aren't ever going to be receptive to the answer. I don't intend to debate Trump in this thread, by the way. He's a symptom of an aristocracy running rampant and without restraint.

good I'm glad you wont be debating, I note your comments though

[KateR]

Climate change?

but is he really failing here, if your yard stick is in terms of agreeing with other countries and paying the highest amount of money to try and prevent climate change for the worse then I would say yes he is. However that is not my illusion of what he has done in regard to climate change and particularly as to what he was elected to do by the American public, I can assure you he was not elected to drive Climate Change so why has he failed here? I can certainly see why many would be disappointed and expected more, perhaps much more, but like many of Spirals points, they were not specific as to why he was elected or why he has failed, disappointed many for sure. Acted foolish in many ways, for sure, causes many people to dislike him, for sure.

However I personally do not see him as a failure when applicable to the job he was elected to do by the American people, of course just my opinion. Has he done everything well for every American, no of course not, no elected politician does for the constituents and certainly no leader does for there party, and absolutely no chance of any democratically elected leader of any country getting everything right for everyone.

I believe if you speak with Americans many think he did exactly the right thing in regard to Climate Change

[grapidianclaret]

The people who think Trump did the right thing regarding climate change,are the same people who believe America should leave Nato. Trump has not just pulled out of the Paris Agreement, he has rolled back scientifically based air and water regulations on pollution. He replaced most of the scientists with hand picked Trump scientists in the EPA . Surprisingly, his new appointees actually denounced his rollbacks. So, with all due respect, he went wrong here.

[Spiral]

KateR seems to be of the belief that an act of vandalism is justifiable if enough people vote for it. While this isn't the place to debate the merits of the US electoral college, and while it cannot be stressed enough that Trump did not, in fact, secure a popular mandate for his non-promises, I rather suspect you're pi$$ing into the wind attempting to reason with her, grapidian, especially considering her argument is based around the idea of the majority voting for him - which they did not.

[grapidianclaret]

I know. But just putting a couple of relevant Facts out there, for the people on here who still think facts matter.

[grapidianclaret]

Similarly,in 2012, not sure if it was already mentioned.The Republican caucus in Iowa was given to Mitt Romney. It took a while for them to admit that Rick Santorum actually won. the Iowan Republican committee called it a draw until Santorum took them to court, after which Santorum was given the win. The Caucus, like the electoral college is obsolete and needs to be brought into the 21st century

[KateR]

KateR seems to be of the belief that an act of vandalism is justifiable if enough people vote for it. While this isn't the place to debate the merits of the US electoral college, and while it cannot be stressed enough that Trump did not, in fact, secure a popular mandate for his non-promises, I rather suspect you're pi$$ing into the wind attempting to reason with her, grapidian, especially considering her argument is based around the idea of the majority voting for him - which they did not.

your doing very well for someone who didn't want to debate, but that's probably true you just like to call names and try to belittle people, typical of someone who has very little idea of what they are talking about. You should note I don't call myself an expert in anything, however I am in the middle of putting a paper together for a Fortune 500 Company in regard to Climate Change affects on business and where the future lies in terms of what they need to look at and as they say get the most bang for there bucks. So I do have a little knowledge, of course I don't pretend to be an expert like you.

You be better of sticking to your myths, all Americans are fat, all Americans are loud, all Americans are stupid, Trump has failed, not as much as your attempts to be smart continue to fail, that is a fact.

[tiger76]

This threads quickly gone off topic,anyway Trump's approval ratings have hit a record high,now this could be a blip,and once the impeachment proceedings conclude,persumably today his numbers could drop back,also all the Democratic infighting is a gift to him,when the Democratic primaries finally wind up,and they have a candidate to coalesce behind things could change,the problem for the Dems is that could be some months away yet,and the longer they tear each other apart,the easier it'll be for Trump to win re-election,it also aids him as the incumbent that by and large the American economy is seen to be improving,a lot will depend who his opponent happens to be,but just now i'd make him a marginal favourite to return to the White House,whether he'll be able to enact a lot of his policies is questionable,the house is all up for reelection and there's 33 Senate seats to be contested,TBH so polarised is America right now,that whoever occupies the Oval Office,i can't see their party holding both bodies of government,so the deadlock will likely continue,as it has for about a decade now.

[KateR]

The people who think Trump did the right thing regarding climate change,are the same people who believe America should leave Nato. Trump has not just pulled out of the Paris Agreement, he has rolled back scientifically based air and water regulations on pollution. He replaced most of the scientists with hand picked Trump scientists in the EPA . Surprisingly, his new appointees actually denounced his rollbacks. So, with all due respect, he went wrong here.

really good points in isolation. Could all explain to us all what happened from the Paris fall out, clearly define what the other nations decided to do, particularly those high polluting nations in terms of there contributions, then maybe we can debate a little bit of meat around the bone. It is a global issue after all I believe but all you experts on here can tell me it's not and explain why not, I love to listen and learn, plus obviously I ask questions since I am not an expert on anything, well maybe I can teach a few things about making an omelet.

[Spiral]

ctrl+f "fat", "loud", "stupid", "expert"...

Nah, didn't think I said any of that. You had me doubting myself for a second, there. But do carry on.

[AndrewJB]

just how is America failing under Trump, what exactly is your yardstick for measuring the failure of this country Andrew?

Spiral covered a lot in his post. I would add healthcare, and social care - the problems they have there absolutely dwarf ours in the same areas. The fact Trump rescinded Obamacare, rather than building on it shows he's unconcerned about or simply unwilling to tackle these issues. Their levels of poverty and social issues are also yardsticks by which I'd say the country is in decline.

[Greenmile]

really good points in isolation. Could all explain to us all what happened from the Paris fall out, clearly define what the other nations decided to do, particularly those high polluting nations in terms of there contributions, then maybe we can debate a little bit of meat around the bone. It is a global issue after all I believe but all you experts on here can tell me it's not and explain why not, I love to listen and learn, plus obviously I ask questions since I am not an expert on anything, well maybe I can teach a few things about making an omelet.

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=paris+agreement&iie=1

[grapidianclaret]

It always amazes me, that the Americans who argue that the USA are the greatest nation on earth,get really flustered when America is criticized for not leading the way on protecting the planet,be it from global warming,or nuclear obliteration. America does not want China or India to interfere in geopolitics but we are waiting for them to lead the way on the fight against climate change.Ironic to say the least.

[dsr]

The problem the Democrats still have is that they don't understand how unpopular they are. They have a similar tactic to some of the more useless Remain campaigners - tell the people that they are stupid and have voted the wrong way, and they will follow you like sheep and vote the right way next time. This impeachment nonsense is seen by many, and probably correctly, as nothing more than an attempt to reverse the election result. And just as with Brexit, the more you tell people that they got it wrong and need to listen to people who are cleverer and better, the more they will dig their heels in.

Some politicians completely fail to realise how unpopular "politicians", as a species, can be. Trump's "I'm not a politician, I'll do it my way" is a better selling point than Clinton et al's "I'm clever and you're stupid" attitude. How else could anyone lose to Trump, except by finding a way to be more unpopular than him?

[thatdberight]

... putting a paper together for a Fortune 500 Company in regard to Climate Change affects...

It may not effect their thinking as much as you hope.

[KateR]

Spiral covered a lot in his post. I would add healthcare, and social care - the problems they have there absolutely dwarf ours in the same areas. The fact Trump rescinded Obamacare, rather than building on it shows he's unconcerned about or simply unwilling to tackle these issues. Their levels of poverty and social issues are also yardsticks by which I'd say the country is in decline.

Andrew,
the I am trying to make is that a one line statement about him failing Americans is quite simply a lie, it's Fake News, why, because Americans don't think that and that is more proof than some key board warrior on here, do a lot of them think he is wrong in many areas, yes. It's the same statements made from the opposition in any democratic country in the world, did they think his tax cuts failed them no, has his plan to plant a trillion trees failed them, no, well there will be them that say it needs to be 5 trillion trees of course.

Healthcare is another one you bang on about, there are many Americans who do not want to change there system, so they are not being failed, some are for sure but not all. It's the same Tory Labour Party divide, we all know to a good degree which side of the divide many people on here sit on, it is just mega statement banging and for every bad thing one side says the other says good.

[KateR]

It may not effect their thinking as much as you hope.

I am sure it will not, they have little to no understanding, the fact that Trump left did not mean America as a country now does nothing to help change Climate Change, due to there system is was always down to the individual states to actual pay for things and make a change to help with climate change, and the individual states have. The Oil & Gas Climate Initiative from September 2019 makes interesting reading, this is a group set up to drive to zero emissions, of course they can be labeled a major contributor. This group produce 32% of global oil & gas and 17% of the global energy demand plus 1.3% of global greenhouse gas emissions, yet they funded $6.5 billion in low carbon technologies and the R&D. There drive in the CCUS field is a good move and interesting that there are 5 main hubs for this, 1 in China, 3 in Europe and 1 in the US, as applicable to this particular discussion the US provides tax credits to the companies that use the CCUS system, a positive impact on climate change that the Trump administration is doing at federal level. Pulling out of Paris did not mean the US don't do anything in regard to climate change, they could do a lot better that is for sure. However I would say those involved in Paris were not doing anything particularly great and Trump leaving may be a good thing in actual fact.

[claret_in_exile]

It's a bit of weird one though. The caucuses are very specifically not votes, they're indications of preferences. I don't really know why.

It's because New Hampshire, by law, is the first primary in the electoral season.

Iowa got around that by holding caucuses. This year, they used a new app provided by Shadow, Inc - a company with connections to the guy who currently has the most delegates, but not the most votes.

You couldn't make it up.

[claret_in_exile]

The problem the Democrats still have is that they don't understand how unpopular they are. They have a similar tactic to some of the more useless Remain campaigners - tell the people that they are stupid and have voted the wrong way, and they will follow you like sheep and vote the right way next time. This impeachment nonsense is seen by many, and probably correctly, as nothing more than an attempt to reverse the election result. And just as with Brexit, the more you tell people that they got it wrong and need to listen to people who are cleverer and better, the more they will dig their heels in.

Some politicians completely fail to realise how unpopular "politicians", as a species, can be. Trump's "I'm not a politician, I'll do it my way" is a better selling point than Clinton et al's "I'm clever and you're stupid" attitude. How else could anyone lose to Trump, except by finding a way to be more unpopular than him?

Nail on the head.

[AndrewJB]

Andrew,
the I am trying to make is that a one line statement about him failing Americans is quite simply a lie, it's Fake News, why, because Americans don't think that and that is more proof than some key board warrior on here, do a lot of them think he is wrong in many areas, yes. It's the same statements made from the opposition in any democratic country in the world, did they think his tax cuts failed them no, has his plan to plant a trillion trees failed them, no, well there will be them that say it needs to be 5 trillion trees of course.

Healthcare is another one you bang on about, there are many Americans who do not want to change there system, so they are not being failed, some are for sure but not all. It's the same Tory Labour Party divide, we all know to a good degree which side of the divide many people on here sit on, it is just mega statement banging and for every bad thing one side says the other says good.

For the record my original statement was; "they (Democrat bigwigs) would rather live in a failed state under Trump, than pay more in tax under Sanders"

Healthcare is a key indicator for satisfaction or happiness in any country, so only proper to consider among other things. You're right that some Americans were persuaded to vote against their own interests (perhaps they saw themselves as putting their country first?), but I reserve the right to hold the opinion that their country failed them, because a country that leaves nearly a hundred million people either uninsured or under insured for healthcare IS a failed system.

As for Trump's tax giveaway - it's amusing how whenever a government wants to spend money on something that benefits most people, the rich call it a waste of money. But whenever the government wants to forego revenue (spend money) on tax breaks for the rich, that's not complained about in the same way. Eighty three percent of the benefit of the tax cuts went to the top one percent. Bear in mind that Trump originally promised tax cuts only for the working and middle classes. A failed state.