SOCIAL CARE

[Foreverly Claret]

Why isn't this more of an issue ?

personal story...bear with me.

Aunt 99 years old.....September fell at home ...fractured femur .

Royal Blackburn....too old to operate....plaster cast.

Transferred to burnley...then pendle. Discharged against our wishes Dec 2019...appeal failed....fracture not healing but deemed medically fit for discharge.

We had to find nursing home to take her....and I mean WE. She has slightly more than £23500 so has to fund herself. Moves to home in Colne

Cost £600 per WEEK....this was the cheapest we could find...other typical costs were £740 in nelson ( nelson Manor ) £900 in Colne ( Peel gardens )

January 2020..falls seriously ill in Nursing Home...admitted to royal Blackburn .Moved to Pendle last week...so far in hospital receiving NHS care for last three weeks and still there .

Guess what...SHE is still paying £600 per week to the Nursing Home..that is the system .I could understand a retainer for her room but the nursing home are not feeding her not caring for her not keeping her warm ..doing bugger all but retaining her room...the NHS is picking up all the costs of her treatment and care...so effectively she is paying £600 per week for being ill.

If anybody on here can justify this to me then please get in touch and I'll gladly take you out for a slap up meal whilst we discuss it.

If you've got elderly parents or relatives take note ..they and you could be in for a big , expensive shock.

[The Enclosure]

I sympathise with your dilemma....I really do not know what the answer is to this situation.
You can to some extent understand the care homes situation as they are running essentially a business, but surely the government has to recompense the care homes in situations like your Aunts.

[yorkyclaret]

Feel your pain, dad is 92 and also in Pendle at the moment, Hartley ward, went in there for 3 days physio after Blackburn Royal, has been there 3 weeks now.

[The Enclosure]

BBC News - Wales tax rises considered to pay for growing care costs
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51357547

[ClaretAndJew]

It's the biggest con in the country is private care.

The staff are paid minimum wage to do arguably an equally as important job as a nurse, for £8.21 an hour. You don't need any qualifications or experience, you can just go straight from a blue collar factory job to a care job with a few online certificates to complete.

Ageing affects us all, we should supplement it with more tax. It's unfair that vulnerable people with money or assets have to sell them to just to be cared for.

[taio]

One of the most unfair aspects is that people who pay privately heavily subsidise those entitled to local authority funding.

[Heathclaret]

It’s a disgrace. Criminals in jail get more for nothing, the elderly are released of their hard earned savings by care home owners who care only for their profit.

[taio]

It’s a disgrace. Criminals in jail get more for nothing, the elderly are released of their hard earned savings by care home owners who care only for their profit.

It's not the fault of care homes but the failure of successive governments to reform the funding of social care.

[summitclaret]

Why isn't this more of an issue ?

personal story...bear with me.

Aunt 99 years old.....September fell at home ...fractured femur .

Royal Blackburn....too old to operate....plaster cast.

Transferred to burnley...then pendle. Discharged against our wishes Dec 2019...appeal failed....fracture not healing but deemed medically fit for discharge.

We had to find nursing home to take her....and I mean WE. She has slightly more than £23500 so has to fund herself. Moves to home in Colne

Cost £600 per WEEK....this was the cheapest we could find...other typical costs were £740 in nelson ( nelson Manor ) £900 in Colne ( Peel gardens )

January 2020..falls seriously ill in Nursing Home...admitted to royal Blackburn .Moved to Pendle last week...so far in hospital receiving NHS care for last three weeks and still there .

Guess what...SHE is still paying £600 per week to the Nursing Home..that is the system .I could understand a retainer for her room but the nursing home are not feeding her not caring for her not keeping her warm ..doing bugger all but retaining her room...the NHS is picking up all the costs of her treatment and care...so effectively she is paying £600 per week for being ill.

If anybody on here can justify this to me then please get in touch and I'll gladly take you out for a slap up meal whilst we discuss it.

If you've got elderly parents or relatives take note ..they and you could be in for a big , expensive shock.

Sorry to hear this. Been through the care system re my late mum. Your Aunt could now be below the threshold and different rules would then apply. Once her assets get down to about £13k I think Lcc have to pay the fees. Maybe get back in touch with Adult services to check. Have they done a formal assessment? If not ask for one asap.

[Erasmus]

It's a dilemma, but not a difficult one to understand. If we want proper care for the elderly then we have to pay more in tax to finance it. My fear is that as usual Boris Johnson will talk big on 'getting it done' but do nothing about it, simply because he dare not raise taxation to pay for it for fear of offending his own backers. I wonder if those who voted him in have any solutions, I have asked before but not a word in reply.

[mdd2]

It is a mine field where if you squander your cash or have none you get some kind of free care but if you have any cash due to prudence the lottery or whatever you have to pay
The sooner this problem is grasped and it will mean those that have will pay for those that haven't the better for a short term fix but in the longer term there will be a need for long term planning for this with some form of insurance policy state run.
It used to be that the average stay in a NH as opposed to RH was only about 3 years and not all the elderly need long term care, some of us hopefully will wake up dead-hopefully on a Sunday after stuffing Arsenal.

[taio]

Sorry to hear this. Been through the care system re my late mum. Your Aunt could now be below the threshold and different rules would then apply. Once her assets get down to about £13k I think Lcc have to pay the fees. Maybe get back in touch with Adult services to check. Have they done a formal assessment? If not ask for one asap.

The two capital thresholds are £23,250 and £14,250. Providing a local authority's assessment indicates an individual needs to be living in a care home they will provid funding as soon as their capital falls below the upper threshold. Capital between the two thresholds is assumed to produce weekly income of £1 per week for every £250 above £14,250.

[Firthy]

Social care full stop is a nightmare. Ageing population along with benefit scroungers and free medical treatment is no longer affordable. Nobody wants to pay more taxes but the money has to come from somewhere.

No I don't have the answers and I'm glad I'm not a politician. I have a feeling the whole system will implode sooner rather than later and as much as I hate to say it, things are only going to get worse.

[houseboy]

Why isn't this more of an issue ?

personal story...bear with me.

Aunt 99 years old.....September fell at home ...fractured femur .

Royal Blackburn....too old to operate....plaster cast.

Transferred to burnley...then pendle. Discharged against our wishes Dec 2019...appeal failed....fracture not healing but deemed medically fit for discharge.

We had to find nursing home to take her....and I mean WE. She has slightly more than £23500 so has to fund herself. Moves to home in Colne

Cost £600 per WEEK....this was the cheapest we could find...other typical costs were £740 in nelson ( nelson Manor ) £900 in Colne ( Peel gardens )

January 2020..falls seriously ill in Nursing Home...admitted to royal Blackburn .Moved to Pendle last week...so far in hospital receiving NHS care for last three weeks and still there .

Guess what...SHE is still paying £600 per week to the Nursing Home..that is the system .I could understand a retainer for her room but the nursing home are not feeding her not caring for her not keeping her warm ..doing bugger all but retaining her room...the NHS is picking up all the costs of her treatment and care...so effectively she is paying £600 per week for being ill.

If anybody on here can justify this to me then please get in touch and I'll gladly take you out for a slap up meal whilst we discuss it.

If you've got elderly parents or relatives take note ..they and you could be in for a big , expensive shock.

My wife has worked for Lancs county council for over 25 years in social care (learning difficulties - adults) and my daughter is a newly qualified social worker, add to that I worked for and ran (mostly) the official magazine of the Nursing Homes Association, so I have some knowledge of how things work, but I have to say that the answers to these questions don't come easy. My wife says that the system is completely flawed from top to bottom and nothing short of a total overhaul can put it right, as you have found out.
Firstly people have to get their head around the fact that care homes are actually businesses (as has rightly been pointed out) and have little to do with 'caring' as such. Some of the stories coming from a lot of care homes (not all of course - some are excellent) will back this up: lack of food/family having to make 'appointments' to see relatives/sometimes downright cruelty etc. and they are run/owned by people (often doctors) who do so because it is a very profitable area (not so much as in the past but it still is). The council run homes that were run for caring as opposed to profit are a thing of the past (largely). The figure you gave quoted for the 'room' is a classic case because, as you rightly say, they are simply holding a room, not feeding/caring/bathing and generally caring for anyone. This is one area that needs to be looked at because as it stands they are not doing anything 'wrong' in the legal sense, but it should be made 'wrong'.
The whole problem with the care system is really down to funding in all it's aspects. My wife deals with service users who have mobility cars but the parents/carers send them in on the buses that are available and use the cars for their own purposes - this is wrong. Service users can pay for extra things in the day service such as meals etc. but if they (the parents/carers) get into arrears they are often just written off. The service users are supposed to be living as normal a life as possible, including going out during the day and socialising but that is no longer possible because of understaffing and the fact that if they are to be taken for lunch the staff are now expected to fund their own meals, which would get too expensive for them and they shouldn't have to buy food that they would not normally need, they have stopped doing it because it is like paying to go to work.

Sorry I haven't really answered your question but I have written this because so few people really understand the state of social care in this country now. It would be so easy to blame the Tories and their cuts (and they ARE to blame for much of it) but this has happened over many years and Labour governments have also been at fault for letting things slide as well). Nothing short of a complete overhaul of the system from top to bottom (including the scandalous amounts of salary paid to senior managent - many of whom are on circa 100k pa) will put this right.

[Zlatan]

It is a massive issue for us all. My personal experience is my father. He has a pension of approx £1800/month and savings totalling over £60k and he has Parkinsons. His health bar the Parkinsons is normal for his age (83) and there is no sign of him dying yet. He is still at home with mum (80) and we have modified the house to accommodate his restrictive mobility. I personally have no issue with him having to pay for his care, but I do have an issue with the quality of care that we pay for. It is costing upwards of £400/week for us to have 2 carers visit 3 times/day to facilitate toileting and personal hygiene for example. They are present for a maximum of 1 hour/day. That equates to 14 hours of care/week for £400, just seems a little steep for me.

My siblings are concerned about the SKI money (Spend the Kids Inheritance) but I am not - it is what it is and we have to pay for it.

I have no problem with paying more tax either, but I know that many will.

[Brucefanclaret]

First of all, I am sorry for your situation, Foreverly. I have been on both sides of the fence with this. Worked in social care for years (not-for-profit sector). Good care is not cheap - unfortunately, much of it isn’t good. The Home will be charging full price because they cannot let the room to anyone else. Not saying that is right, but that will be their reasoning.
Good care is not cheap, as I said. How much do you pay for B&B per night in a decent hotel?
Care Homes have to have a percentage of their staff qualified to Level 2, with Senior Carers to Level 3. A good Home Manager will be either a qualified nurse, or have a Level 4 or 5 qualification in Care and Management.

The main point is that, as others have said, the whole system needs overhauling. As long as care staff are paid minimum wage, it will be hard to attract the right staff. Local Authority-run Homes were not all ‘caring’ and the low wages were a part of this as they are in the whole sector.
Govt. needs to grasp this and come up with a solution, which must mean higher taxes. So, it’s not going to happen anytime soon. We have been promised a green paper for years now, under Govts. of all persuasions. No mention in the Tory Election Manifesto, so I’m not holding my breath!

[UnderSeige]

There is a little known package called 'NHS continuing healthcare'. This involves free funding of the health care by the NHS.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-ad ... ealthcare/

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-ca ... ealthcare/

Usually, when an elderly person cannot look after themselves following a major health incident (such as a fall), they end up in the 'means tested council sector'. This usually involves the council funding the care with the care being provided by the private sector.

The NHS will be unlikely to inform patients and their relatives about 'NHS continuing healthcare'. I was not informed about it when my mother had three falls in the period of one year.

There was a drama programme on the BBC last year in which an elderly lady had a stroke. The story then continued about the struggle that the family had to get proper health care for her. In the end, someone informed the daughter about 'NHS continuing healthcare'. The rest of the story was then about how uncooperative the NHS were with the family. The end result was that the lady got the quality free care that she deserved. The point that the daughter made was that her Mother had paid national insurance all her life.

[TVC15]

Firstly I sympathise with the OP - it’s a horrible situation for any family and the system is extremely unfair.
A close friend of my father spent more than 5 years in a private care home just off Casterton Avenue at a cost of £900 per week - the place is like a hotel and the staff were excellent. Unfortunately he had Alzheimer’s for all of this period and there was nothing the family could do but put him into care.

It’s a sad state of affairs that successive governments have done nothing about this. Of course a big factor is that people are living a lot longer but this is not something that we did not know about. The over 85s have been the fastest growing demographic for a number of years now.

Johnson has promised a cross party consultation this year on the issue of social care. He has also said on several occasions that whatever the policy we end up with it will include that NOBODY has to sell their house to pay for their social care....those are big words and unfortunately they come from the mouth of a rather big liar. Let’s hope for once he is telling the truth.

[houseboy]

First of all, I am sorry for your situation, Foreverly. I have been on both sides of the fence with this. Worked in social care for years (not-for-profit sector). Good care is not cheap - unfortunately, much of it isn’t good. The Home will be charging full price because they cannot let the room to anyone else. Not saying that is right, but that will be their reasoning.
Good care is not cheap, as I said. How much do you pay for B&B per night in a decent hotel?
Care Homes have to have a percentage of their staff qualified to Level 2, with Senior Carers to Level 3. A good Home Manager will be either a qualified nurse, or have a Level 4 or 5 qualification in Care and Management.

The main point is that, as others have said, the whole system needs overhauling. As long as care staff are paid minimum wage, it will be hard to attract the right staff. Local Authority-run Homes were not all ‘caring’ and the low wages were a part of this as they are in the whole sector.
Govt. needs to grasp this and come up with a solution, which must mean higher taxes. So, it’s not going to happen anytime soon. We have been promised a green paper for years now, under Govts. of all persuasions. No mention in the Tory Election Manifesto, so I’m not holding my breath!

Wages in the public sector (and I can't speak secifically about care homes as my wife has always worked in day care) were actually not all that bad, certainly not minimum wage, quite a long way off it, largely because of the ongoing training that goes on. My wife is now highly qualified and experienced at what she does but a few years ago there was a re-structure and as a result she lost 3K per year (yes that's 3 thousand pounds) and the way the county council got away with it was by changing their role titles (whilst not changing the job they had to do). Bearing in mind my wife works 4 days not 5 it meant that those on full time were losing in the region of around 5k per year. Who can take a cut like that? It caused many to leave. As a consequence the people the job attracted changed (if you pay peanuts you get monkeys). The pay in the private sector is still below that paid in the public but my wife was telling me the other day that the cleaners, who have no training, no qualififcations and certainly no experience of actually having to deal with the kind of things she has to put up with (verbal and physical abuse/issuing of medication/personal care plans/dealing with seizures - and a whole host of things that make the job stressful) are on about 20p an hour less than she is. It's no wonder she often talks about leaving (but she won't because she actually cares). At the time of the re-structure that cost so many so much the senior management who implemented it were 'rewarded' with a not inconsiderable pay rise.

**The world of social care in this country is bonkers and, from what I have been told, so far removed from much of Europe that we may almost be a third world nation.

**This is NOT an invitation to a Brexit discussion. I for one will not respond.

[Blackrod]

I have a family member that uses privately funded care. It is very expensive but in my experience there is a wide variety of care homes. Some are very good and really do care and some are terrible. Some are keen to take the money and hope the person who needs care just sits all day in a chair quietly which isn’t suitable for all conditions. Having said that the owners are in business and if they can fill the room anyway will want full rate for it a bit like a hotel. It is a social problem as people are living longer. For any government to properly deal with this they would need to raise ( or redirect)taxes. Would the people they are taxing more benefit from extra free care ? Most of the private funders are subsidising the sector to the benefit of people that don’t pay themselves as mentioned in a post above. Many of these private funders will have paid considerable amounts of tax over their lifetimes too. Maybe owners profits need looking at in relation to the amount they pay the staff. The staff need more regulations and qualifications too to ensure they have the necessary skills.

[Jakubclaret]

I'd amalgamate all care homes to be within the NHS at 1 set price, build extensions onto the hospitals or residential housing units nearby within the hospital grounds, you wouldn't need any ambulances going to the all care homes dotted in & around the country, & you wouldn't pay £600 like the OP is doing for a empty room, care would be fast & on the doorstep & cheaper & far more efficient, it's common for the elderly people to be in & out of hospital at least provide the option for them,
You could actually treat people within there own homes the hospital/professionals would be 5 mins away.

[UnderSeige]

If anyone is interested in the BBC Drama that I mentioned in the previous post, it is currently on Amazon and can be rented for 99p. It is called 'Care'. It was previously on BBC IPlayer but has now been removed.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Care-Sheridan- ... 164&sr=1-2

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bvbf5n

Jenny and Claire then discover that their mother should qualify for NHS Continuing Healthcare, which means all Mary's health costs would be paid for by the NHS. This fact is withheld from them by the cash-strapped health authority, sending the sisters into battle against a broken system, determined to secure the level of care their mother deserves.

The main point that I got out of this programme is that there is already provision within the system for people in need of free long term health care.

[tim_noone]

= Theft From The Elderly And Vunerable.

[Hipper]

I don't see the problem for the OP's aunt. She's in a good position.

She's being treated, presumably as well as possible, on the NHS, and she has a home to go to when she's better.

Her money equates to about 40 weeks and then (and from what is said above about allowances, probably before) it is paid for.

In a care home she won't need much money except for the odd clothing, presents for other etc..

Where's the problem?

You seem to complain about having to find a nursing home but if you care for your aunt that is the best way, rather then some non family member doing it. That is why these days Medical Power of Attorney is advisable.

The empty bed in the nursing home is waiting for your aunt. Do you expect them to fill that bed when your aunt isn't there? You have a case about food but I doubt that forms much of the costs of running a care home. All the staff, heating, security etc. remains in place when she's not there.

Care home running costs are very high because of all the regulations they rightly have to comply with.

[Cirrus_Minor]

I have been through this farce now twice, once with my mum who had Alzheimer s and once with my mum in-law who had vascular dementia. Both are now sadly dead.

If you have dementia you are not classed as ill but requiring social care, which is totally wrong and unfair. The ones needing 'care' need to pay unless their total belongings, including home, money, valuables, is down to about 13K.

The system needs to be included with the NHS for these people who were promised free care from "cradle to grave'. But don't expect this lot to do it.

[Colburn_Claret]

My aunt has dementia, and should be in care, but my neice hates the homes. All are expensive, but she's more concerned by the level of care. She left her on respite once, and found the carers all in the kitchen having a brew, whilst her mother lay in bed in a soaking nappy, not nice.
She looks after her at home and gets £60 a week care allowance.
How can you only get £60, when the homes charge upwards of £600. You break down the costs of wages, heating, food, laundry these homes are a complete rip off. I understand they need to make profit, but its a licence to steal running a nursing home.

I wish I had an answer for the OP, but I don't. It's probably long overdue that the government and local authorities took a closer interest in them, and placed a limit on profits perhaps.

[UnderSeige]

For anyone in the position of having a relative who needs a care home, they need to determine the type of care needed and who will fund this.

Elderly with no serious Long term Health Issues
This probably covers the group that are reasonably healthy but are getting weak and incapable of looking after themselves.
Possibly a daily (or more/less frequent) visits by a carer would suffice. In this case the council are likely to foot the bill as long as the persons capital is not above £14,250. If the capital is between £14,250 and £23,250, the council are likely to foot part of the bill. It is unlikely that the council will take the value of the persons home into account as part of the capital if the person is living at home.
However, if the person goes into a 'Rest Home' (not a nursing home) the capital amounts would apply but the persons home would be counted as part of the capital.

Elderly with Serious Long Term Health Problems
Some could be treated at home with help of NHS, carers and family. Others would need to go into a nursing home where their health condition can be treated on a long term basis. In these cases, the NHS should be funding the care on a non means tested basis.
The Lancashire County Council website says:

If you have a long term condition (a condition that lasts a year or longer and has a big impact on your life), you may require ongoing care and support....The NHS long-term conditions assessment provides a guide to the help and support you may be entitled to....If your needs are mostly health related the NHS continuing healthcare is responsible for supporting you.

https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/health-an ... condition/

I think these figures and facts are correct but it would be best to do a bit of research or seek advice.
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-ad ... althcare/#
https://www.independentage.org/informat ... -care-home
https://www.carersuk.org/?gclid=EAIaIQo ... gK_ivD_BwE

[evensteadiereddie]

Plenty of people didn't consider this to be an important issue when last voting.
Perhaps, when it comes down to it, we're unhappy at the thought of our taxes going up and that's what really matters. No use complaining now.

[Inchy]

I for one would be willing to pay more tax to provide a better service. However, I believe we should chance the tax avoiding cooperation's first

[evensteadiereddie]

It is, of course, a massive issue and unless you're extremely lucky, as we were with my mum and her circumstances through her care up to her death, an incredibly expensive one.
It's also a fact that successive governments had - and this present one has- little or no interest in changing the status quo. They'll pretend they have but that will be it.

[Foreverly Claret]

I don't see the problem for the OP's aunt. She's in a good position.

She's being treated, presumably as well as possible, on the NHS, and she has a home to go to when she's better.

Her money equates to about 40 weeks and then (and from what is said above about allowances, probably before) it is paid for.

In a care home she won't need much money except for the odd clothing, presents for other etc..

Where's the problem?

You seem to complain about having to find a nursing home but if you care for your aunt that is the best way, rather then some non family member doing it. That is why these days Medical Power of Attorney is advisable.

The empty bed in the nursing home is waiting for your aunt. Do you expect them to fill that bed when your aunt isn't there? You have a case about food but I doubt that forms much of the costs of running a care home. All the staff, heating, security etc. remains in place when she's not there.

Care home running costs are very high because of all the regulations they rightly have to comply with.

What a strange reply .If my brothers and I could take care of her we surely would but she's 99 with a non-healing fractured femur !! They won't let her go home or to any of our homes.

You're missing the point which the vast majority of respondents have twigged .I wasn't looking for sympathy for my aunt , I was trying to draw attention to the stupid vagaries inherent in the system and to forewarn posters on here with elderly relatives that the situation relating to Social Care is far from straightforward even when illness is involved and the costs can be eyewateringly expensive .Even though you have paid tax and NI all your working life its very likely that you're going to have to pay.Fair enough ..if that's the best we can do for the old and the sick then so be it BUT let's be open about it so that families know where they stand and can do some planning.

This is the third time my aunt has suffered a fractured femur.On the previous two occasions she remained in hospital until she could weight bear then she was transferred to a rehab facility ( olive House in Bacup ) before being discharged back to her own home .This time she couldn't weight bear ( and still can't ) so she could not go to rehab or back to her own home so we had no option but to find a home which would take her..on leaving the NHS on this basis she has to self -fund the full cost of £600 per week .If she could weight bear £0 per week. LOGIC...I give in.

Thanks to all who have responded.

[Blackrod]

It’s s massive social problem regardless of who is in government. No point finger pointing at different governments. It’s a bit like the state pension position that has changed due to people living and working longer. I think there does need to be a shift in mentality though in terms of how we prioritise looking after the elderly.

[UnderSeige]

We had no option but to find a home which would take her..on leaving the NHS on this basis she has to self -fund the full cost of £600 per week .

Hi Foreverly Claret
Please have a look at my previous posts. I have added links to sites such as the NHS, Lancashire County Council and Age Concern. There is scheme called 'NHS Continuing Health Care'. This is a scheme that is run by the NHS. It is not means tested and is completely free of charge.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-ca ... ealthcare/

[bfcjg]

It is a scandal , taxes need to rise to ensure we all get decent care in our latter years. Anyone who has witnessed loved ones going through the process of gradually needing full time residential care will understand, its awful basically begging for help.

[evensteadiereddie]

It’s s massive social problem regardless of who is in government. No point finger pointing at different governments. It’s a bit like the state pension position that has changed due to people living and working longer. I think there does need to be a shift in mentality though in terms of how we prioritise looking after the elderly.

Well, who's going to change the situation if not the government ? I think everybody is aware of the issue of elderly care, public mentality has shifted, we just need a government with the balls to address it. It will cost, some voters might not like that but with a huge majority, what's stopping difficult decisions being made?

[Bfcboyo]

Why isn't this more of an issue ?

personal story...bear with me.

Aunt 99 years old.....September fell at home ...fractured femur .

Royal Blackburn....too old to operate....plaster cast.

Transferred to burnley...then pendle. Discharged against our wishes Dec 2019...appeal failed....fracture not healing but deemed medically fit for discharge.

We had to find nursing home to take her....and I mean WE. She has slightly more than £23500 so has to fund herself. Moves to home in Colne

Cost £600 per WEEK....this was the cheapest we could find...other typical costs were £740 in nelson ( nelson Manor ) £900 in Colne ( Peel gardens )

January 2020..falls seriously ill in Nursing Home...admitted to royal Blackburn .Moved to Pendle last week...so far in hospital receiving NHS care for last three weeks and still there .

Guess what...SHE is still paying £600 per week to the Nursing Home..that is the system .I could understand a retainer for her room but the nursing home are not feeding her not caring for her not keeping her warm ..doing bugger all but retaining her room...the NHS is picking up all the costs of her treatment and care...so effectively she is paying £600 per week for being ill.

If anybody on here can justify this to me then please get in touch and I'll gladly take you out for a slap up meal whilst we discuss it.

If you've got elderly parents or relatives take note ..they and you could be in for a big , expensive shock.

If anyone can even try to justify that they just need taking out and slapping without food.

[Zlatan]

Hi Foreverly Claret
Please have a look at my previous posts. I have added links to sites such as the NHS, Lancashire County Council and Age Concern. There is scheme called 'NHS Continuing Health Care'. This is a scheme that is run by the NHS. It is not means tested and is completely free of charge.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-ca ... ealthcare/

Would the NHS scheme cover Parkinson’s disease?

[Jakubclaret]

Well, who's going to change the situation if not the government ? I think everybody is aware of the issue of elderly care, public mentality has shifted, we just need a government with the balls to address it. It will cost, some voters might not like that but with a huge majority, what's stopping difficult decisions being made?

More money does need to be allocated especially when you consider how much is being spent on hs2, I’ll never use it & plenty of other people won’t. You could spend a smaller fraction of that budget & save & improve thousands of people life’s.

[Foreverly Claret]

Hi Foreverly Claret
Please have a look at my previous posts. I have added links to sites such as the NHS, Lancashire County Council and Age Concern. There is scheme called 'NHS Continuing Health Care'. This is a scheme that is run by the NHS. It is not means tested and is completely free of charge.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-ca ... ealthcare/

Thanks for that .We looked at this when she was discharged last December.There are 12 " disciplines" and each is marked A B or C depending on severity.To get CHC you have to score at least 2 As ….She scored one A and six Bs...so it wasn't granted .The marking is as tight as hell these days and we were so ****** off by that time that we didn't appeal .The NHS are supposed to do this automatically but they sure as hell aren't doing it at the moment .Thanks for the heads up on this .We've just learned today that she has failed the weight bearing test again so God knows where this leaves us.If it looks as though her stay in hospital is going to be lengthy it may be worth taking a chance and giving up the room at the nursing home in Colne but at the end of the day we're talking about the wellbeing of a 99 year old lady who is very poorly.What a way to end your days..who wants to go out in a half-arsed way like this ?

[Heathclaret]

My aunt has dementia, and should be in care, but my neice hates the homes. All are expensive, but she's more concerned by the level of care. She left her on respite once, and found the carers all in the kitchen having a brew, whilst her mother lay in bed in a soaking nappy, not nice.
She looks after her at home and gets £60 a week care allowance.
How can you only get £60, when the homes charge upwards of £600. You break down the costs of wages, heating, food, laundry these homes are a complete rip off. I understand they need to make profit, but its a licence to steal running a nursing home.

I wish I had an answer for the OP, but I don't. It's probably long overdue that the government and local authorities took a closer interest in them, and placed a limit on profits perhaps.

Agree with everything you’ve written, except the part about profit. There are some things that shouldn’t be about money, looking after the elderly is one of them.

[thatdberight]

Agree with everything you’ve written, except the part about profit. There are some things that shouldn’t be about money, looking after the elderly is one of them.

So the doctors and nurses should work for free?

[TVC15]

So the doctors and nurses should work for free?

No - I think they meant non for profit. So effectively run as in the public rather than private sector and if necessary subsidised by the government. Nobody has to work for free.

[thatdberight]

Why isn't this more of an issue ?

personal story...bear with me.

Aunt 99 years old.....September fell at home ...fractured femur .

Royal Blackburn....too old to operate....plaster cast.

Transferred to burnley...then pendle. Discharged against our wishes Dec 2019...appeal failed....fracture not healing but deemed medically fit for discharge.

We had to find nursing home to take her....and I mean WE. She has slightly more than £23500 so has to fund herself. Moves to home in Colne

Cost £600 per WEEK....this was the cheapest we could find...other typical costs were £740 in nelson ( nelson Manor ) £900 in Colne ( Peel gardens )

January 2020..falls seriously ill in Nursing Home...admitted to royal Blackburn .Moved to Pendle last week...so far in hospital receiving NHS care for last three weeks and still there .

Guess what...SHE is still paying £600 per week to the Nursing Home..that is the system .I could understand a retainer for her room but the nursing home are not feeding her not caring for her not keeping her warm ..doing bugger all but retaining her room...the NHS is picking up all the costs of her treatment and care...so effectively she is paying £600 per week for being ill.

If anybody on here can justify this to me then please get in touch and I'll gladly take you out for a slap up meal whilst we discuss it.

If you've got elderly parents or relatives take note ..they and you could be in for a big , expensive shock.

I suspect most of the care companies' costs are fixed. If one resident is in hospital, how many staff hours do they save? How much heating? How much rent? Yes - there are clearly some direct costs such as good but fundamentally their costs are not affected.

There are some real structural issues in this sector it seems with loan and management company setups that need unpicking as they may be taking money out of the system without adding enough (any?) value.

One argument I don't understand is that people shouldn't have to sell their house. There are plenty of debates about who pays what tax and perhaps higher tax takes in other areas would maje the point less problematic but I don't get that anyone should have that size of asset protected to pass on.

[dsr]

One argument I don't understand is that people shouldn't have to sell their house. There are plenty of debates about who pays what tax and perhaps higher tax takes in other areas would make the point less problematic but I don't get that anyone should have that size of asset protected to pass on.

I think that depends to a large extent on whether the old person needs professional nursing care, or just social care. If the person can be cared for at home, then there is certainly a good case to say that the children or other expected inheritors of the home can either choose to care for the person at home, thus saving the inheritance; or choose not to care for the person at home, thus reducing the inheritance (to nothing in very short order, at current prices.)

Where the old person needs nursing care, like the OP, that's a different argument.

[thatdberight]

I think that depends to a large extent on whether the old person needs professional nursing care, or just social care. If the person can be cared for at home, then there is certainly a good case to say that the children or other expected inheritors of the home can either choose to care for the person at home, thus saving the inheritance; or choose not to care for the person at home, thus reducing the inheritance (to nothing in very short order, at current prices.)

Where the old person needs nursing care, like the OP, that's a different argument.

Agreed. In that point, I wasn't commenting on the OP's circumstances.

Part of the problem, of course, is that social and health care are practically unentangleable for many in later life.

[Heathclaret]

So the doctors and nurses should work for free?

Don’t be daft.

Do you think people should be fleeced of their money by unscrupulous care home owners who’s primary concern is not the welfare of their occupants, but the profit they can make by providing the minimum amount of service?

[thatdberight]

Don’t be daft.

Do you think people should be fleeced of their money by unscrupulous care home owners who’s primary concern is not the welfare of their occupants, but the profit they can make by providing the minimum amount of service?

No.

Is it your view that this describes all care home owners?

[Colburn_Claret]

Agree with everything you’ve written, except the part about profit. There are some things that shouldn’t be about money, looking after the elderly is one of them.

I agree with you, but in there real world unless local authorities can provide care for everyone, then the private sector has to fill the gaps. I'm not anti the private sector, but there is a balance between care and profit, and it's obviously tipped heavily in favour of profit. Like any service provider they need strong regulations. At the moment it seems that those regulations concentrate on quality of care, but it shouldn't be difficult to include value for money as well.

[Hipper]

If anybody on here can justify this to me then please get in touch and I'll gladly take you out for a slap up meal whilst we discuss it.

I was responding, I thought reasonably, to your asking for justifications.

What a strange reply .If my brothers and I could take care of her we surely would but she's 99 with a non-healing fractured femur !! They won't let her go home or to any of our homes.

You're missing the point which the vast majority of respondents have twigged .I wasn't looking for sympathy for my aunt , I was trying to draw attention to the stupid vagaries inherent in the system and to forewarn posters on here with elderly relatives that the situation relating to Social Care is far from straightforward even when illness is involved and the costs can be eye wateringly expensive .Even though you have paid tax and NI all your working life its very likely that you're going to have to pay. Fair enough ..if that's the best we can do for the old and the sick then so be it BUT let's be open about it so that families know where they stand and can do some planning.

This is the third time my aunt has suffered a fractured femur. On the previous two occasions she remained in hospital until she could weight bear then she was transferred to a rehab facility ( olive House in Bacup ) before being discharged back to her own home .This time she couldn't weight bear ( and still can't ) so she could not go to rehab or back to her own home so we had no option but to find a home which would take her..on leaving the NHS on this basis she has to self -fund the full cost of £600 per week .If she could weight bear £0 per week. LOGIC...I give in.

Thanks to all who have responded.

On your aunt specifically, from what you say the hospital can no longer heal her and a rehab facility is presumably exactly that - the plan is she is to go home after rehab. As it seems she can no longer recover it means she needs supported living for the rest of her life. It seems reasonable to me that if she has the money she should pay for that.

On her finances, she should be able to get some sort of carers support which didn't used to be means tested. She will also presumably have some income.

There is no doubt that our ends of life are not well managed. The medical profession is there to help us recover so we can support ourselves. That's all they do. If we can't recover that's where the problems begin. We all know this but fail to do anything about it. Me too. I had to deal with my mother's end of life so I have some understanding of what goes on. I will also have to deal with my own demise for which I've done nothing.

We can pontificate about not for profit for looking after the elderly but that applies to many things. It seems that the system can work if it is well managed. The issue of course is money. I don't know if some sort of insurance scheme can work here but my guess is it would be very expensive.

[Heathclaret]

No.

Is it your view that this describes all care home owners?

Obviously I haven’t met all care home owners, so not a particularly clever question. The ones I have met, only four that I have worked for, the description fits perfectly.

The point I’m trying to make is that somethings shouldn’t be left to the privets sector, where profit is the motivation. I also believe that if all you have left is the property that you live in, it shouldn’t be taken away to pay for your care.

My mother cared for my father for a few years as he suffered from heart failure, I will not let my mother go into a home, she will be cared for by her family. Some people don’t have that choice.

As I mentioned before, criminals are looked after better.