Problems for the SNP ...
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Problems for the SNP ...
SNP Scottish Finance Minister ( Chancellor ), Derek Mackay, has resigned this morning, on the day he was due to give his " Budget " to the Scottish Parliament, following relevations that he'd sent 270 texts/messages to a 16 year old boy describing him as " cute ", and inviting him for dinner, despite the boy telling him of his age ...
As we know, Alex Salmond's Court case, facing 14 sexual assault charges against 10 separate women is due to begin on 9th March...
As we know, Alex Salmond's Court case, facing 14 sexual assault charges against 10 separate women is due to begin on 9th March...
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
As much as this makes my skin crawl, he hasn't actually done anything wrong legally. Although 270 messages is probably considered harassment.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
I thought this was going to be about the light show on the European parliament building. Now that IS funny. Sturgeon claiming that the EU had organised a light display to show support for Scotland when it was actually organised by the SNP. Comedy gold.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Agreed. There are evolutionary reasons why we have an inherent reaction to that age gap but the recipient was, in legal terms, an adult capable of deciding who to have a relationship (sexual or otherwise) with. We don't have a "Yuk! He's too old for him" law. I didn't read the whole set of exchanges that's been published but the recipient doesn't seem to have told him to stop sending messages and 270 over six months really isn't that many (if he wasn't told to stop) - you could rack up a dozen in a single exchange in 5 minutes.SalouClaret wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:16 amAs much as this makes my skin crawl, he hasn't actually done anything wrong legally. Although 270 messages is probably considered harassment.
That said, his behaviour, particularly the insistence that their conversations remain just between them, is obviously sacking material.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
I thought it was about the article saying Scotland wouldn't qualify for EU membership.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12372 ... ssion=true
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12372 ... ssion=true
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Anyone in senior political office sending lewd texts or otherwise to a 16yr old is always “ pulling the tigers tail” Though 100% legit,as 16yr old males are legally allowed to partake in the act of buggery and suchlike it screams “ sordid red top fodder” With Salmond’s trial coming up the SNP could be be in for a rocky ride
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
All right, should have titled the thread " More problems for the SNP " ... As 16/17 year olds can vote in local elections & elections to the Scottish Parliament, I'm almost surprised Ms Sturgeon didn't dismiss it as " canvassing " !!
I don't know about you, but I would take a dim view if I discovered a 42 year old man had sent 270 text messages to my daughter/son, before she/he had even taken their GCSE's ! Grr !
I don't know about you, but I would take a dim view if I discovered a 42 year old man had sent 270 text messages to my daughter/son, before she/he had even taken their GCSE's ! Grr !
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Jimmy Krankie
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
This all boils down to what people PERSONALLY feel is acceptable. The legal age of consent is what it is and we can't make allowances for age differentiation as long as nothing illegal has happened. I sometimes feel that people get all indignent about things like this because they feel it is right to do so (not pointing the finger at anyone on here at all) but I think many guys (or women for that matter) wouldn't say no to someone half their age given the opportunity.
The thing that makes me smile is when we see a story about some 90-odd year old billionaire marrying a woman of 25 (she is obviously after money but then he knows that and doesn't give a sh!t) and people saying 'how sad is that'. To which I usually reply 'I wish I could be that sad'.
Morals are an odd thing and vary form culture to culture and from age to age and who is to say what is right and what is wrong?
The thing that makes me smile is when we see a story about some 90-odd year old billionaire marrying a woman of 25 (she is obviously after money but then he knows that and doesn't give a sh!t) and people saying 'how sad is that'. To which I usually reply 'I wish I could be that sad'.
Morals are an odd thing and vary form culture to culture and from age to age and who is to say what is right and what is wrong?
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
There could be a bit of a head-on between the child protection / anti-grooming lobby, who will be outraged, and the pro-homosexual lobby who worked for years to get the homosexual age of consent down to 16 and will presumably tend towards supporting the MSP.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
I assume those beating the " he hasnt actually done anything wrong " drum dont have 16 year old children of their own
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
You can't "groom" a 16 year old.
I'm not "pro homosexual" (whatever that means). I'm just pro "if we make a f***ing law, can we go by that instead of making **** up?".
Mackay put himself in a situation where it could only end one way by insisting on secrecy which could compromise him. But, if he chooses to have a relationship with another adult (the law's definition - not mine) and keep that under wraps, that's really not that unusual, is it?
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
So what age then? 17? 18? 19? etc...randomclaret2 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:27 pmI assume those beating the " he hasnt actually done anything wrong " drum dont have 16 year old children of their own
Let me know what age you've decided overrides the law.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
By "pro-homosexual lobby" I'm referring specifically to the people who worked for years and years (and still are working) to have homosexuality and heterosexuality equalised under law.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Is it not correct that, whilst the age of consent is 16 if you are over 18 it is still illegal to engage in this kind of activity with a 16 year old?
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
No. That's not correct.ClaretAndJew wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:53 pmIs it not correct that, whilst the age of consent is 16 if you are over 18 it is still illegal to engage in this kind of activity with a 16 year old?
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Long time since they've qualified for anything of note, isn't it?Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:46 amI thought it was about the article saying Scotland wouldn't qualify for EU membership.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12372 ... ssion=true
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Perhaps the EU/GB government are banning high heels and wedgies so Jimmy Krankie will have to bring a box everywhere ?
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Finished as a politician. Damaged personally. Must be a case for a grooming prosecution.
Idiot.
Idiot.
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
can we vote to get rid of scotland and the depraved members of the SNP?
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
isn't it lovely when we can all come together here and be united as one under a simple post
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Pervert no excuse for it. Same as if it had been a 16yr old girl. He is an educated older man attracted in just legal teenagers. He should be monitored closely as who knows how young he may stoop next time he fancies a teen.
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
All a bit sad really.
It doesn't seem that Mackay has broken any laws but has fallen foul of moral issues which seem to be apart from the law. I always thought the law was supposed to reflect the general view of what is and isn't allowed - in fact to be reasonable. If people think his behaviour is unreasonable then the law should be changed. Of course that would be a nightmare - can someone who is 18 send 270 text messages but someone who is 42 should not? What age is acceptable? If it is not acceptable for a 42 year old to do this then surely it is not acceptable for him to have sex with a 16 year old boy despite the law allowing it. Or is it the fact that he is an MP and it would be OK for 'ordinary' people?
It doesn't seem that Mackay has broken any laws but has fallen foul of moral issues which seem to be apart from the law. I always thought the law was supposed to reflect the general view of what is and isn't allowed - in fact to be reasonable. If people think his behaviour is unreasonable then the law should be changed. Of course that would be a nightmare - can someone who is 18 send 270 text messages but someone who is 42 should not? What age is acceptable? If it is not acceptable for a 42 year old to do this then surely it is not acceptable for him to have sex with a 16 year old boy despite the law allowing it. Or is it the fact that he is an MP and it would be OK for 'ordinary' people?
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
18 acceptable 16 schoolboy
MPs should be setting an example.
MPs should be setting an example.
Last edited by Bfcboyo on Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
This story is dominating the news up here as you'd expect,now if the youth was 16 or over when the messages were sent,then legally the MSP hasn't committed a criminal act as far as i understand the current Scottish laws,however rumours are circulating online that the 1st messages were sent when the boy was only 15,he's only recently turned 16 and this contact has been going on for about 6 months,if that is the case then i can't see how Derek Mackay can remain a member of the SP.SalouClaret wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:16 amAs much as this makes my skin crawl, he hasn't actually done anything wrong legally. Although 270 messages is probably considered harassment.
Shamed Derek Mackay will be entitled to a £11,945 payment after resigning from the SNP Government.
This is you stand down from a public role in disgrace,and yet you're entitled to more public funds,is it any wonder public confidence in all politicians is at an all time low.
Mr Mackay's stand in is doing a sterling job in the circumstances,and there is growing rumours she'll assume the FM role in the Summer,can't imagine why people think Nicola Sturgeon will be forced to stand down can you?.
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
If he started at 15 he definitely needs watching. Unjustifiable behaviour not worth people trying to defend it unless they want to be seen to be promoting borderline pedophilia.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Just wondered why he is a pervert? Is the law that has 'allowed' him to do this 'perverted'? At what age do people qualify for being perverted? When is a peodophile not a peodophile? Is a person who is 35 and having relations with a 16 year old one (despite not breaking the law)? What about a 17 year old with someone at 15 (despite only 2 years between them)? What if 2 14 year olds have sex? Are they BOTH peodophiles? What about other countries and cultures? Many don't live by our morals, are they 'wrong' or are we?
This is a very sensitive area but the law is the law and people cannot really just put their own personal morals on other people's behaviour. Many of our laws centred around morality come from the Victorian times and earlier when laws were made by, but often not adhered to, the then ruling class. Many of these laws were meant to protect innocents and as such they do a decent job. Many were bad laws and have since been scrapped (homosexuality?). But in the end all we can do is live by them until such times as they are changed or scrapped, what we cannot do is think that there is a 'degree' of breaking a law, you are either on the right side of the law or not, and no amount of outrage is going to make someone guilty if they are not actually guilty of anything.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
This ^Hipper wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:30 pmAll a bit sad really.
It doesn't seem that Mackay has broken any laws but has fallen foul of moral issues which seem to be apart from the law. I always thought the law was supposed to reflect the general view of what is and isn't allowed - in fact to be reasonable. If people think his behaviour is unreasonable then the law should be changed. Of course that would be a nightmare - can someone who is 18 send 270 text messages but someone who is 42 should not? What age is acceptable? If it is not acceptable for a 42 year old to do this then surely it is not acceptable for him to have sex with a 16 year old boy despite the law allowing it. Or is it the fact that he is an MP and it would be OK for 'ordinary' people?
Of course, underneath the outrage is a valid point. If someone exclusively or persistently shows a sexual interest in young adults just past the age of consent, that's worth knowing but, as weird as it seems to me, if that's their thing and it's consensual, non-abusive and doesn't ever cross the line, what is it other than legal behaviour?
I'm sure he's broken ministerial guidelines, particularly with keeping it secret so the employment / position issue is another matter entirely.
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Well he is chatting up 15yr olds with an aim to bumming them.houseboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:47 pmJust wondered why he is a pervert? Is the law that has 'allowed' him to do this 'perverted'? At what age do people qualify for being perverted? When is a peodophile not a peodophile? Is a person who is 35 and having relations with a 16 year old one (despite not breaking the law)? What about a 17 year old with someone at 15 (despite only 2 years between them)? What if 2 14 year olds have sex? Are they BOTH peodophiles? What about other countries and cultures? Many don't live by our morals, are they 'wrong' or are we?
This is a very sensitive area but the law is the law and people cannot really just put their own personal morals on other people's behaviour. Many of our laws centred around morality come from the Victorian times and earlier when laws were made by, but often not adhered to, the then ruling class. Many of these laws were meant to protect innocents and as such they do a decent job. Many were bad laws and have since been scrapped (homosexuality?). But in the end all we can do is live by them until such times as they are changed or scrapped, what we cannot do is think that there is a 'degree' of breaking a law, you are either on the right side of the law or not, and no amount of outrage is going to make someone guilty if they are not actually guilty of anything.
I consider that a bit pervy tbh. Different opinions, if you think that is ok that is fine. Crack on and tell all the lads down the boozer next time your in that is what you think.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Have you ANY source for him having been 15? Any? Even a disreputable one?
The full transcripts of their conversations seem to have been published;
5 weeks into the messages Mackay asked him the young man if he worked and told him he (Mackay) was gay
The next time they messaged, Mackay asked the young man what age he was and he told him he was 16.
Last edited by thatdberight on Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Just this which I presumed was legitimate. I will stand by my beliefs even if it turns out to be untrue. If he is 15 / 16 he is a 42 year old. It reeks.tiger76 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:33 pmThis story is dominating the news up here as you'd expect,now if the youth was 16 or over when the messages were sent,then legally the MSP hasn't committed a criminal act as far as i understand the current Scottish laws,however rumours are circulating online that the 1st messages were sent when the boy was only 15,he's only recently turned 16 and this contact has been going on for about 6 months,if that is the case then i can't see how Derek Mackay can remain a member of the SP.
Shamed Derek Mackay will be entitled to a £11,945 payment after resigning from the SNP Government.
This is you stand down from a public role in disgrace,and yet you're entitled to more public funds,is it any wonder public confidence in all politicians is at an all time low.
Mr Mackay's stand in is doing a sterling job in the circumstances,and there is growing rumours she'll assume the FM role in the Summer,can't imagine why people think Nicola Sturgeon will be forced to stand down can you?.
It will all come out and whatever happens would you want him texting your 16yr old niece,nephew,son or daughter.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Horrible horrible party run by bigots
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Was the lad not 16? Therefore nothing illegal. As for the lads 'down the pub' they have all probably looked at girls (or boys) who are maybe under age either without knowing it (easilly done these days) or at least 'looking' without intention. Of course you won't have done this because your morals are beyond question (or are they?). I don't know you Boyo so I am not judging but you at least appear to be someone who does indeed believe that youre standards are the benchmark for society. For me I think we have the balance just right. In some states in the US I believe the age of consent is 18 (I will stand corrected if wrong) and yet in Poland I been told (by a Pole) that it is 15. Which is right and which is wrong?
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
There is one headline claiming he is a 16 year old schoolboy.
If Scottish schools are the same as English then the texts may well have started at 15 as they were sent last August initially according to the article I copied below.
You can see he tries again and again — like he is trying to get my son to change his mind about something. He is trying to see how much he can push it.”
The conversations began last August when the SNP big gun — due to deliver Holyrood’s £43billion Budget in parliament — sent a private greeting to the lad as he was preparing to go into S5.
In one of their first chats, Mr Mackay offered to pay for the boy to go to a rugby game, saying: “I could take you?”
In a midnight exchange starting at 12.03am on Friday, December 27, messages show the leading Nat telling the lad: “You are looking good with that new haircut.”
The youngster replies: “Thanks, needed a change. Long hair was getting annoying.”
Mr Mackay, who lives with his boyfriend in Bishopton, posts back: “Cute. You don’t mind compliments.”
If Scottish schools are the same as English then the texts may well have started at 15 as they were sent last August initially according to the article I copied below.
You can see he tries again and again — like he is trying to get my son to change his mind about something. He is trying to see how much he can push it.”
The conversations began last August when the SNP big gun — due to deliver Holyrood’s £43billion Budget in parliament — sent a private greeting to the lad as he was preparing to go into S5.
In one of their first chats, Mr Mackay offered to pay for the boy to go to a rugby game, saying: “I could take you?”
In a midnight exchange starting at 12.03am on Friday, December 27, messages show the leading Nat telling the lad: “You are looking good with that new haircut.”
The youngster replies: “Thanks, needed a change. Long hair was getting annoying.”
Mr Mackay, who lives with his boyfriend in Bishopton, posts back: “Cute. You don’t mind compliments.”
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Set your standards where you like. I personally would like to set mine on what I would be comfortable with had it been somebody close to me.houseboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:01 pmWas the lad not 16? Therefore nothing illegal. As for the lads 'down the pub' they have all probably looked at girls (or boys) who are maybe under age either without knowing it (easilly done these days) or at least 'looking' without intention. Of course you won't have done this because your morals are beyond question (or are they?). I don't know you Boyo so I am not judging but you at least appear to be someone who does indeed believe that youre standards are the benchmark for society. For me I think we have the balance just right. In some states in the US I believe the age of consent is 18 (I will stand corrected if wrong) and yet in Poland I been told (by a Pole) that it is 15. Which is right and which is wrong?
Would you honestly be comfortable with this scenario and a relative of yours?
And no I don't look at under age girls by accident, I am more than happy with my woman.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
A great deal of conjecture there Boyo. You use words like 'claiming' and 'may well have been'. You also use text conversations that COULD been seen as 'grooming' but to those with a slightly less tainted view they may be just conversations as there is no sexual content in them in any way.
If he has been 'grooming' then it needs to be proved that he did something illegal with or to a minor and if proof can be found then yes he should feel the full force of the law, but you seem to be trying to stretch it out so that you can be justified in your personal view that sexual behaviour with a young, albeit legal, person is wrong.
If he has been 'grooming' then it needs to be proved that he did something illegal with or to a minor and if proof can be found then yes he should feel the full force of the law, but you seem to be trying to stretch it out so that you can be justified in your personal view that sexual behaviour with a young, albeit legal, person is wrong.
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Do you think it is ok. Not legal but ok.houseboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:15 pmA great deal of conjecture there Boyo. You use words like 'claiming' and 'may well have been'. You also use text conversations that COULD been seen as 'grooming' but to those with a slightly less tainted view they may be just conversations as there is no sexual content in them in any way.
If he has been 'grooming' then it needs to be proved that he did something illegal with or to a minor and if proof can be found then yes he should feel the full force of the law, but you seem to be trying to stretch it out so that you can be justified in your personal view that sexual behaviour with a young, albeit legal, person is wrong.
Would you be happy to have a young relative in that position or if it had gone further.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
I am glad to see that a very insulting comment by yourself towards me has been removed, either by yourself or the mods so my reply to it was not accepted. This is good because we could perhaps keep the conversation above the gutter and talk about morals and points of law without reverting to personal insult. My reply was not insulting either by the way.
As for your point above, no I may not be happy about it at all, but what I think doesn't matter, we were, I thought, discussing whether the guy had actually done anything wrong in the eyes of the law. Morals are a personal thing and cover more than just sex but on this issue I think that my views and yours are surprisingly nearer than you think. All I have done is pose questions and question morality on the basis of different cultures being unable to agree on many things, it is something that has always interested me because morality is whatever we are brought up with, but I go back to my original question about whether we can be so ethnocentric as to think that 'our' morals are better than 'theirs'.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Well mine are. I'm glad to hear yours are.houseboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:38 pmI am glad to see that a very insulting comment by yourself towards me has been removed, either by yourself or the mods so my reply to it was not accepted. This is good because we could perhaps keep the conversation above the gutter and talk about morals and points of law without reverting to personal insult. My reply was not insulting either by the way.
As for your point above, no I may not be happy about it at all, but what I think doesn't matter, we were, I thought, discussing whether the guy had actually done anything wrong in the eyes of the law. Morals are a personal thing and cover more than just sex but on this issue I think that my views and yours are surprisingly nearer than you think. All I have done is pose questions and question morality on the basis of different cultures being unable to agree on many things, it is something that has always interested me because morality is whatever we are brought up with, but I go back to my original question about whether we can be so ethnocentric as to think that 'our' morals are better than 'theirs'.
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
A tee shirt for some posters on this thread....
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Personally, I would take it up with the young relative and ask them wtf they're doing talking to an old bloke. Takes two to tango.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Amazing sone people are trying to justify his actions. A disgrace.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
Thanks Bosscat. Valentine's Day present... tick...
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
The law and public morals can't necessarily be the same. For example, would it be considered wrong to nip round the back of the church after the wedding ceremony and "have a good time" with the chief bridesmaid? Most of us would say it was wrong, but should it be made illegal?Hipper wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:30 pmAll a bit sad really.
It doesn't seem that Mackay has broken any laws but has fallen foul of moral issues which seem to be apart from the law. I always thought the law was supposed to reflect the general view of what is and isn't allowed - in fact to be reasonable. If people think his behaviour is unreasonable then the law should be changed. Of course that would be a nightmare - can someone who is 18 send 270 text messages but someone who is 42 should not? What age is acceptable? If it is not acceptable for a 42 year old to do this then surely it is not acceptable for him to have sex with a 16 year old boy despite the law allowing it. Or is it the fact that he is an MP and it would be OK for 'ordinary' people?
The point being, it is quite reasonable that people can receive widespread public condemnation for legal sexual activity.
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Re: Problems for the SNP ...
I'm not sure that Mackay has made any promise of fidelity or behaviour (outside of the ministerial code which I'm sure he's breached) to his electorate that is any sensible equivalent to a marriage vow.dsr wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:31 pmThe law and public morals can't necessarily be the same. For example, would it be considered wrong to nip round the back of the church after the wedding ceremony and "have a good time" with the chief bridesmaid? Most of us would say it was wrong, but should it be made illegal?
The point being, it is quite reasonable that people can receive widespread public condemnation for legal sexual activity.
Re: Problems for the SNP ...
That's not relevant to the point I was making though. My point was that it is quite reasonable, as a general principle, that people can receive widespread public condemnation for legal sexual activity.thatdberight wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:34 pmI'm not sure that Mackay has made any promise of fidelity or behaviour (outside of the ministerial code which I'm sure he's breached) to his electorate that is any sensible equivalent to a marriage vow.