Covid-19

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CombatClaret
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Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:48 pm

paulatky wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:40 pm
But some groups are still practicing mass prayer

Surely thats wrong in these times (goes out in car for tin hat, will be essential)
Mosques have been closed,religious leaders have said not to gather and are holding virtual worship.
So everything reasonable has been done.

You will find people ignoring the rules in all walks of life.

CombatClaret
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Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:50 pm

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NottsClaret
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Re: Covid-19

Post by NottsClaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:30 pm

I read something today about how in Germany they're planning on the mass antibody testing, with a suggestion you'll get a certificate to show when you've had it, beaten it and are now immune and not infectious. Then you can go back to work, and get out and about as usual.

Just wondering, if they had that approach in this country and you were say, under 60 and in good health.. would you rather get it, beat it and crack on - or stay safely holed up for another 6 months?

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Re: Covid-19

Post by KateR » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:39 pm

I see companies starting to go into administration, airlines like Easy Jet stopped flight, we are just starting to enter the tip of the iceberg in regard to business that will fail, those with 2,000 employees and bigger will of course grab the headline but there must be hundreds of small businesses failing.

Airlines will of course be looking for Gov. bailouts yet I think middle sized businesses will be worst hit with no bailout.

There is always a suspicion in my mind that several businesses that were close to failing will take advantage of the virus and the recovery package to go into administration now, while frantically planning there strategy of how to emerge like a Phoenix from the ashes with a new/same business, however if they are able to hire people again then it will be a good thing in the long run for working people.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:40 pm

NottsClaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:30 pm
Just wondering, if they had that approach in this country and you were say, under 60 and in good health.. would you rather get it, beat it and crack on - or stay safely holed up for another 6 months?
For me, to just get it and what will be will be. But I have no children or family that depend on me, so I wouldn't be all that concerned of succumbing to it and dying.

But someone who's married with young children I'm sure would rather stay indoors for another 6 months and not chance it.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by dsr » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:54 pm

FactualFrank wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:40 pm
For me, to just get it and what will be will be. But I have no children or family that depend on me, so I wouldn't be all that concerned of succumbing to it and dying.

But someone who's married with young children I'm sure would rather stay indoors for another 6 months and not chance it.
After 6 months of 24-hour-young children, some would be going out looking for bubonic plague! (Only kidding. ;) )
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paulatky
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Re: Covid-19

Post by paulatky » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:58 pm

Alex Gorsky, chairman and CEO of Johnson & Johnson tells NBC News’ TODAY the drug had “a high degree of probability of being successful against the covid-19 virus”.
“Literally within the next few days and weeks, we're going to start ramping up production of these vaccines as well and we should be able to have several hundred million doses available by the middle of next year,” Gorsky said. “Our goal is to have a billion prepared by the end of 2021.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by paulatky » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:01 pm

NottsClaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:30 pm
I read something today about how in Germany they're planning on the mass antibody testing, with a suggestion you'll get a certificate to show when you've had it, beaten it and are now immune and not infectious. Then you can go back to work, and get out and about as usual.

Just wondering, if they had that approach in this country and you were say, under 60 and in good health.. would you rather get it, beat it and crack on - or stay safely holed up for another 6 months?

At least 6 months. Can never be safe until had it and recovered or been vaccinated.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Bfcboyo » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:02 pm

Personally I wont be trying untested vaccines.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... t.amp.html

I might try in 12 to 18 months if everything is ok.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:08 pm

Belgian woman, Suzanne Hoylaerts aged 90, dies of Covid 19 after refusing a respirator, telling her doctors "Save it for the youngest [who need it most], I've already had a beautiful life."

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world- ... r-21779952
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Re: Covid-19

Post by Inchy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:32 pm

Just finished my early shift (8-4) at the covid production line. Was an overtime needed due to sickness


Things continue to ramp up. We are now using non-ICU areas to care for ICU patients. Beds are not an issue yet but it probably will be.

More and more young people being admitted. The elderly or those with significant co-morbidities are being considered for ICU. The home teams along with ICU are making decisions on the appropriateness of admissions. This is nothing new and always happens when considering escalation above ward level care.


I was hoping McLaren F1 were going to create a new amazing ventilator, and watching the news that’s what someone whose doesn’t work in ICU might think. But it seems they have dusted off an old wispy flow system and given it an upgrade. They do work but waste a lot of 02. Something which may be an issue. Still they have done that in a hand Full of days so there is hope for more.

The public have been fantastic. Every day we are receiving gifts from businesses. Hand cream, food, coffee etc. Feels a bit early for all the love. It’s busy but it’s been busier. I hope the love hasn’t peaked too soon. I also hope the elderly wards, nursing homes, and other usual forgotten areas are getting gifts as boosts. As hard and stressful as it is in ICU it doesn’t compare to a day on a dementia ward.

We keep getting told we are 2/3 weeks away from the peak, yet Italy and Spain are not at their peak yet. Some of the consultants are predicting May will be the peak, but no one really knows.

Mentally it’s hard. I am seeing patients I don’t usually see. Fit people. People with only type 1 resp failure (low 02). Patients look very well until you do a proper assessment and arterial blood gas and discover they are profoundly hypoxic. This is confusing for all of us. Most people who normally require ICU look like they are on deaths door. Many of the covid patients look well but are not. The usual end of bed assessment (if they look unwell they are probably very unwell) doesn’t apply.


It’s weird that although it’s busy it isn’t as busy as the media might suggest (I don’t work in London). I sometimes have the thought that maybe it won’t get that bad. But then I realise that isn’t a helpful attitude. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. They are not building hospitals in conference centres for no reason.


Back on nights this week for the first time since this saga started. Could get interesting
Last edited by Inchy on Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Covid-19

Post by KateR » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:54 pm

Inchy,
thank you very much for the update, I really look forward to this one post for providing the reality as it is, also recognizing it is not the same everywhere but can gauge where you are in the process and hopefully you don't see a sudden upturn.

Like everyone, I truly appreciate what you and all your colleagues around the world are doing, fantastic effort, you can't see me but big clapping going on in my head.
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Re: Covid-19

Post by Grumps » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:28 pm

Apparently last weeks modelling showed the latest death figures for the past 24hrs should have been well over 400, but are 180. Good news in a weird sort of way, because any death is one too many.
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Re: Covid-19

Post by Zlatan » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:54 pm

NottsClaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:30 pm
I read something today about how in Germany they're planning on the mass antibody testing, with a suggestion you'll get a certificate to show when you've had it, beaten it and are now immune and not infectious. Then you can go back to work, and get out and about as usual.

Just wondering, if they had that approach in this country and you were say, under 60 and in good health.. would you rather get it, beat it and crack on - or stay safely holed up for another 6 months?
Certificates and paperwork to show you're worthy in Germany might not go down well with some...

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Zlatan » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:05 pm

Inchy wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:32 pm
Just finished my early shift (8-4) at the covid production line. Was an overtime needed due to sickness


Things continue to ramp up. We are now using non-ICU areas to care for ICU patients. Beds are not an issue yet but it probably will be.

More and more young people being admitted. The elderly or those with significant co-morbidities are being considered for ICU. The home teams along with ICU are making decisions on the appropriateness of admissions. This is nothing new and always happens when considering escalation above ward level care.


I was hoping McLaren F1 were going to create a new amazing ventilator, and watching the news that’s what someone whose doesn’t work in ICU might think. But it seems they have dusted off an old wispy flow system and given it an upgrade. They do work but waste a lot of 02. Something which may be an issue. Still they have done that in a hand Full of days so there is hope for more.

The public have been fantastic. Every day we are receiving gifts from businesses. Hand cream, food, coffee etc. Feels a bit early for all the love. It’s busy but it’s been busier. I hope the love hasn’t peaked too soon. I also hope the elderly wards, nursing homes, and other usual forgotten areas are getting gifts as boosts. As hard and stressful as it is in ICU it doesn’t compare to a day on a dementia ward.

We keep getting told we are 2/3 weeks away from the peak, yet Italy and Spain are not at their peak yet. Some of the consultants are predicting May will be the peak, but no one really knows.

Mentally it’s hard. I am seeing patients I don’t usually see. Fit people. People with only type 1 resp failure (low 02). Patients look very well until you do a proper assessment and arterial blood gas and discover they are profoundly hypoxic. This is confusing for all of us. Most people who normally require ICU look like they are on deaths door. Many of the covid patients look well but are not. The usual end of bed assessment (if they look unwell they are probably very unwell) doesn’t apply.


It’s weird that although it’s busy it isn’t as busy as the media might suggest (I don’t work in London). I sometimes have the thought that maybe it won’t get that bad. But then I realise that isn’t a helpful attitude. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. They are not building hospitals in conference centres for no reason.


Back on nights this week for the first time since this saga started. Could get interesting
Inchy, thank you.

I have a question though, which with my very limited knowledge on the subject troubles me in terms of understanding.

Those fit and healthy medical staff who have unfortunately succumbed to the virus have spent a lot of time in and around patients who I understand are carrying a large viral load, and as such are also exposed to a large viral load. My little mind has wondered if the outcomes of some of the patients who have succumbed been more favourable had they stayed at home and tried to sweat it out (so to speak) instead of exposing themselves to even more viral load in a hospital ward? Essentially what I am asking is whether grouping a lot of people who have the virus together is magnifying the impact of the virus en-masse?

I am also due to go to my local hospital for my next infusion (Infiximab - hence my classification as extremely vulnerable) on the 1st May and I need to get clarity as to whether I go into the hospital or not for this - my gut feeling says not to as my underlying health condition is currently in remission. I'll pass on what I find out.

and again, thank you for being on the front line.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:06 pm

Inchy wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:32 pm
Just finished my early shift (8-4) at the covid production line. Was an overtime needed due to sickness


Things continue to ramp up. We are now using non-ICU areas to care for ICU patients. Beds are not an issue yet but it probably will be.

More and more young people being admitted. The elderly or those with significant co-morbidities are being considered for ICU. The home teams along with ICU are making decisions on the appropriateness of admissions. This is nothing new and always happens when considering escalation above ward level care.


I was hoping McLaren F1 were going to create a new amazing ventilator, and watching the news that’s what someone whose doesn’t work in ICU might think. But it seems they have dusted off an old wispy flow system and given it an upgrade. They do work but waste a lot of 02. Something which may be an issue. Still they have done that in a hand Full of days so there is hope for more.

The public have been fantastic. Every day we are receiving gifts from businesses. Hand cream, food, coffee etc. Feels a bit early for all the love. It’s busy but it’s been busier. I hope the love hasn’t peaked too soon. I also hope the elderly wards, nursing homes, and other usual forgotten areas are getting gifts as boosts. As hard and stressful as it is in ICU it doesn’t compare to a day on a dementia ward.

We keep getting told we are 2/3 weeks away from the peak, yet Italy and Spain are not at their peak yet. Some of the consultants are predicting May will be the peak, but no one really knows.

Mentally it’s hard. I am seeing patients I don’t usually see. Fit people. People with only type 1 resp failure (low 02). Patients look very well until you do a proper assessment and arterial blood gas and discover they are profoundly hypoxic. This is confusing for all of us. Most people who normally require ICU look like they are on deaths door. Many of the covid patients look well but are not. The usual end of bed assessment (if they look unwell they are probably very unwell) doesn’t apply.


It’s weird that although it’s busy it isn’t as busy as the media might suggest (I don’t work in London). I sometimes have the thought that maybe it won’t get that bad. But then I realise that isn’t a helpful attitude. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. They are not building hospitals in conference centres for no reason.


Back on nights this week for the first time since this saga started. Could get interesting
Glad you still well Inchy.
Also glad your not saying you are lacking PPE.

From what I have read today the team inc Maclaren have picked a CPAP machine that was out of patent, they have improved it and can produce a few thousand a week.
Also from what I have read this type of equipment can keep people out of ICU which hopefully can be a good thing.

I agree with your worry on oxygen supply, that would be a disaster if that ran out.


Hope you stay well, and all our thanks for your work

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Re: Covid-19

Post by tim_noone » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:07 pm

Good points there zlatan...

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:09 pm

Grumps wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:28 pm
Apparently last weeks modelling showed the latest death figures for the past 24hrs should have been well over 400, but are 180. Good news in a weird sort of way, because any death is one too many.
It would be if they were not being manipulated.

At least we got clear data today that admissions were increasing by 1000 per day.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... istic.html

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:14 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:05 pm
Inchy, thank you.

I have a question though, which with my very limited knowledge on the subject troubles me in terms of understanding.

Those fit and healthy medical staff who have unfortunately succumbed to the virus have spent a lot of time in and around patients who I understand are carrying a large viral load, and as such are also exposed to a large viral load. My little mind has wondered if the outcomes of some of the patients who have succumbed been more favourable had they stayed at home and tried to sweat it out (so to speak) instead of exposing themselves to even more viral load in a hospital ward? Essentially what I am asking is whether grouping a lot of people who have the virus together is magnifying the impact of the virus en-masse?

I am also due to go to my local hospital for my next infusion (Infiximab - hence my classification as extremely vulnerable) on the 1st May and I need to get clarity as to whether I go into the hospital or not for this - my gut feeling says not to as my underlying health condition is currently in remission. I'll pass on what I find out.

and again, thank you for being on the front line.
Could you get yourself a mask and glasses.
Also do you have sanitizer.

With those items you should be able to protect yourself suitable whilst at hospital.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Inchy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:19 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:05 pm
Inchy, thank you.

I have a question though, which with my very limited knowledge on the subject troubles me in terms of understanding.

Those fit and healthy medical staff who have unfortunately succumbed to the virus have spent a lot of time in and around patients who I understand are carrying a large viral load, and as such are also exposed to a large viral load. My little mind has wondered if the outcomes of some of the patients who have succumbed been more favourable had they stayed at home and tried to sweat it out (so to speak) instead of exposing themselves to even more viral load in a hospital ward? Essentially what I am asking is whether grouping a lot of people who have the virus together is magnifying the impact of the virus en-masse?

I am also due to go to my local hospital for my next infusion (Infiximab - hence my classification as extremely vulnerable) on the 1st May and I need to get clarity as to whether I go into the hospital or not for this - my gut feeling says not to as my underlying health condition is currently in remission. I'll pass on what I find out.

and again, thank you for being on the front line.

In terms of your infiximab, I don’t know why you are taking it but I would speak to your consultant directly.


In terms of viral load, and admittedly I am a critical care nurse not a microbiologist, from my understanding the viral load you are initially infected with is the issue. Not the cumulative effect, although I could be taking rubbish. If you’re an ICU consultant and you tube a patient and in the process you get a face full of sputum from a covid patient then you are at greater risk of severe illness. The sicker someone is the higher the viral load. Hence why critical care staff are at particularly high risk as the patients are very sick to even be under our care.


Lowbank, PPE is an issue unfortunately.

As I mentioned previously NHs England’s guidelines fall short of HSE and the WHO. Supply of PPE is limited but available. We are having to seriously think about when it’s appropriate to leave an infected area as we will have to remove PPE then reapply after. Visor were an issue. We ran out at one point last week but we now have stock. Fortunately I bought goggles from amazon a few weeks ago predicting this would happen. Also B and Q had goggles so some were procured from there as an interim.


Unfortunately this is a global pandemic that nobody saw coming. Nobody had the volume of masks, gowns, and visors just laying around in warehouses that would be required. Some of my colleagues are not taking it as well as me. They are worried. Some Local companies are now switching to ppe production if possible which is good.

We may run out of PPE in the future and working in critical care that isn’t ideal with the viral load issue. I’m hardly going to walk away though am I
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Re: Covid-19

Post by Grumps » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:50 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:09 pm
It would be if they were not being manipulated.

At least we got clear data today that admissions were increasing by 1000 per day.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... istic.html
Any evidence of your claims?

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:10 pm

Inchy wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:19 pm
In terms of your infiximab, I don’t know why you are taking it but I would speak to your consultant directly.


In terms of viral load, and admittedly I am a critical care nurse not a microbiologist, from my understanding the viral load you are initially infected with is the issue. Not the cumulative effect, although I could be taking rubbish. If you’re an ICU consultant and you tube a patient and in the process you get a face full of sputum from a covid patient then you are at greater risk of severe illness. The sicker someone is the higher the viral load. Hence why critical care staff are at particularly high risk as the patients are very sick to even be under our care.


Lowbank, PPE is an issue unfortunately.

As I mentioned previously NHs England’s guidelines fall short of HSE and the WHO. Supply of PPE is limited but available. We are having to seriously think about when it’s appropriate to leave an infected area as we will have to remove PPE then reapply after. Visor were an issue. We ran out at one point last week but we now have stock. Fortunately I bought goggles from amazon a few weeks ago predicting this would happen. Also B and Q had goggles so some were procured from there as an interim.


Unfortunately this is a global pandemic that nobody saw coming. Nobody had the volume of masks, gowns, and visors just laying around in warehouses that would be required. Some of my colleagues are not taking it as well as me. They are worried. Some Local companies are now switching to ppe production if possible which is good.

We may run out of PPE in the future and working in critical care that isn’t ideal with the viral load issue. I’m hardly going to walk away though am I
I know you would not walk away.
There are loads of manufacturing companies have stocks of masks and goggles. Like Trump did, they should be donating to hospitals. I know my company will have stocks.
You need it, we don’t.
Apologies I did assume because you didn’t mention it, perhaps the situation had improved. I see it hasn’t.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:12 pm

Grumps wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:50 pm
Any evidence of your claims?
The graphs were shown on sky news after the Gov presentation.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Grumps » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:16 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:12 pm
The graphs were shown on sky news after the Gov presentation.
I saw BBC so comment, but doubt they make the figures up
What about Spain and Italy say their figures are stabilising... Made up?
Come on, you must be happy with something?

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:19 pm

Grumps wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:50 pm
Any evidence of your claims?
Here you go.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-day.html

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Re: Covid-19

Post by KateR » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:23 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:06 pm
Glad you still well Inchy.
Also glad your not saying you are lacking PPE.

From what I have read today the team inc Maclaren have picked a CPAP machine that was out of patent, they have improved it and can produce a few thousand a week.
Also from what I have read this type of equipment can keep people out of ICU which hopefully can be a good thing.

I agree with your worry on oxygen supply, that would be a disaster if that ran out.


Hope you stay well, and all our thanks for your work
Funny enough have just watched a program with a doctor who is asked questions from the public and answers to the best of her ability. I have no idea what a CPAP machine was/is, but that was a question form the public about using them, adapting to help with the lack of ventilators. Her answer was that a CPAP machine forces air through and therefore will spread the virus more and put the patient and more importantly the care people in the room at greater risk. Of course am not commentating on what Maclaren have done but the CPAP machines should not be used, others with far greater knowledge will help with this for better definition but thought I would comment only on the CPAP as it was very coincidental.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:23 pm

Zlatan,

Do you take Infliximab for Rheumatoid Arthritis or something similar? I've not been on it (had Cyclophosphamide instead), but remember when it was in the higher cost bracket, which is probably why I didn't have it. That's going back a few years now though so imagine it's more readably available.

With regards to whether you go in, I assume you'll have a consultant and could ask their secretary?

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Re: Covid-19

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:34 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:16 am
The good Lord likes a trier, Andrew and you keep trying....

Why make things so difficult? On your "new money" idea, "just print it." And, how long do you think "producing a different currency" would take? How long do you think it would take to "print?" (but, why not digital)? How long do you think it would take to distribute?

Setting up the 80% furloughed pay support and the self-employed support requires several weeks (and people complain...). Do you think your ideas could be implemented faster.... or would take even longer to set up?

Of course, if you want to wreak the economy you are on to the right idea, let's just print money. That's worked well on every other occasion when a government has "just printed money." But, I think we are all agreed that we need a strong economy to be able to do the right things for the people in the UK and beyond.

Take care. Stay safe.
The government's plan is far more complicated than what I'm suggesting, and it doesn't cover everyone. Far more simple to pay out the same per person sum to the whole country. By not putting on hold wages, rents, loan repayments, and mortgages, the government is putting at risk many small businesses that have closed down as a public duty, and have no chance to earn money to pay these overheads. And not to mention the people who aren't covered by the government's scheme, or renters, who now make up a slightly larger proportion of the population than home owners. Why pay to cover some people and not others? Why allow people a mortgage holiday, but not renters? It'll only lead to more problems in the future.

As for "printing money" - that's what quantitative easing is, but with this it's just money to cover living expenses in the short term. It won't be inflationary if price controls are put in place too. Putting it out in a different currency - you could call it food stamps if you like - would be an additional control on possible inflation, and again it can be created and distributed electronically by the Bank of England. For those without bank accounts, a different way would have to be taken. With so many countries having to run huge short term deficits, I don't think there's even enough money in the world to borrow, so countries will eventually have to just print money.

We need a strong economy coming out of this,and loading people and companies down with debt now - not to mention running a huge national deficit - will reduce post crisis demand. If many families are faced with two months of rent to catch up on, the last thing they're going to do is go out and spend money in the economy once we're all allowed out. So those small businesses that also have big back-overheads to pay are going to go bust. And then the government will have to spend more money looking after lots of unemployed people. Much better if people and businesses can just carry on from before. It won't be a simple thing to do, and there will still be damage, but not as much as with the path we're now on.
Last edited by AndrewJB on Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Grumps » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:35 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:19 pm
Here you go.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-day.html
Says exactly what I said, no proof of fiddling the figs

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:37 pm

Grumps wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:16 pm
I saw BBC so comment, but doubt they make the figures up
What about Spain and Italy say their figures are stabilising... Made up?
Come on, you must be happy with something?

Spain and Italy’s cases are stabilising, that’s good news.

Yes I am China has shown the way, no new internal transmissions for a week. Reducing active cases.

F1 consortium has come up with a CPAP machine it can make in thousands quickly that can reduce load on ICU. India will need millions so F1 workshops will be flat out.

PPE manufacture is ramping up.

Testing is ramping up, but when New York is testing 15 k per day we have a way to go.

Bad things

America’s cases are growing massively

A week ago China was charging $20k for a ventilator, today it’s $50k. That going to lead to backlash against China.

India , South Africa and African countries are going to be hit hard.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Grumps » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:44 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:37 pm
Spain and Italy’s cases are stabilising, that’s good news.

Yes I am China has shown the way, no new internal transmissions for a week. Reducing active cases.

F1 consortium has come up with a CPAP machine it can make in thousands quickly that can reduce load on ICU. India will need millions so F1 workshops will be flat out.

PPE manufacture is ramping up.

Testing is ramping up, but when New York is testing 15 k per day we have a way to go.

Bad things

America’s cases are growing massively

A week ago China was charging $20k for a ventilator, today it’s $50k. That going to lead to backlash against China.

India , South Africa and African countries are going to be hit hard.
I knew you could do it, does it not feel better spreading a bit of good news, keep it up, it will do you a world of good.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:45 pm

Grumps wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:35 pm
Says exactly what I said, no proof of fiddling the figs
Even under questioning on the Gov presentation today he admitted the data could lag by a couple of weeks. That’s ok if your ok with our Gov using data that’s two weeks old to make decisions on lockdown.
Will you be ok being on lockdown for an extra two weeks due to data lag.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:47 pm

NottsClaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:30 pm
I read something today about how in Germany they're planning on the mass antibody testing, with a suggestion you'll get a certificate to show when you've had it, beaten it and are now immune and not infectious. Then you can go back to work, and get out and about as usual.

Just wondering, if they had that approach in this country and you were say, under 60 and in good health.. would you rather get it, beat it and crack on - or stay safely holed up for another 6 months?
Nothing is certain though about being young and fit and not dying from it. What you don't want is to have it hit you harder than it has most other people, and have the misfortune of that happening on a day when it's also hit a lot of other people in the same area the same way. Forty patients and only twenty ventilators means the choice is in the hands of the doctors.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Grumps » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:00 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:45 pm
Even under questioning on the Gov presentation today he admitted the data could lag by a couple of weeks. That’s ok if your ok with our Gov using data that’s two weeks old to make decisions on lockdown.
Will you be ok being on lockdown for an extra two weeks due to data lag.
So, in your opinion, have more, or less, than 180 died in last 24hrs,which is the data I was referring to.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by claretandy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:01 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:37 pm
Spain and Italy’s cases are stabilising, that’s good news.

Yes I am China has shown the way, no new internal transmissions for a week. Reducing active cases.

F1 consortium has come up with a CPAP machine it can make in thousands quickly that can reduce load on ICU. India will need millions so F1 workshops will be flat out.

PPE manufacture is ramping up.

Testing is ramping up, but when New York is testing 15 k per day we have a way to go.

Bad things

America’s cases are growing massively

A week ago China was charging $20k for a ventilator, today it’s $50k. That going to lead to backlash against China.

India , South Africa and African countries are going to be hit hard.
China have been fiddling the figures, surely you must know this.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Inchy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:22 pm

KateR wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:23 pm
Funny enough have just watched a program with a doctor who is asked questions from the public and answers to the best of her ability. I have no idea what a CPAP machine was/is, but that was a question form the public about using them, adapting to help with the lack of ventilators. Her answer was that a CPAP machine forces air through and therefore will spread the virus more and put the patient and more importantly the care people in the room at greater risk. Of course am not commentating on what Maclaren have done but the CPAP machines should not be used, others with far greater knowledge will help with this for better definition but thought I would comment only on the CPAP as it was very coincidental.


CPAP stands for continuous positive airway pressure. CPAP is used to treat type 1 resp failure (low 02), BiPAP is used for type 2 resp failure (high C02) and mixed resp failure (high c02 low 02)

CPAP is needed for covid patients. Either non- invasively via a mask, or invasively via intubation.

Non-invasive CPAP definitely has its place. Yes it’s more likely to put the staff at risk as the masks leak where ET tubes don’t, however it doesn’t put the patient at a higher risk from a viral point of view at all.

Non-invasive CPAP avoids the need to sedate and intubate the patient. Intubating the patient is where the ICU doctors are at the greatest risk of becoming infected by a high viral load. Intubating the patient requires the patient to be paralysed and sedated, both always carry a risk. Sedating the patient usually require inotropic support to maintain blood pressure. Inotropic drugs like Noradrenaline carries many side effects and is a very very dangerous drug. You can kill someone very quickly if you cock up.

As soon as someone is intubated the ventilator is doing all the work delivering positive pressure ventilation, compared to negative pressure ventilation which is how we normally breath. This means you lose muscles associated with breathing. It can take months to recover from less than a week intubated. Anyone who is acutely unwell requiring intubation there is a very high mortality rate. This is even higher with patients with ARDS, which covid patients tend to have. Up to 90 percent intubated in China didn’t survive although a bit better here so far from the anecdotal evidence I’ve heard.

Avoiding intubation by providing early non-invasive CPAP appears to be a good option for certain patients with Covid
Last edited by Inchy on Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Covid-19

Post by Inchy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:24 pm

Also many patients with co-morbidities are not appropriate for level 3 care (intubation). They wouldn’t survive. However they may be appropriate for a trial of level 2 care (non-invasive CPAP). It gives them a chance

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Inchy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:44 pm

Posted in error

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Re: Covid-19

Post by KateR » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:45 pm

Inchy,
many thanks for the info :)

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Re: Covid-19

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:46 pm

Anyone watching Dispatches on Channel 4.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Spijed » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:50 pm

Inchy wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:22 pm
As soon as someone is intubated the ventilator is doing all the work delivering positive pressure ventilation, compared to negative pressure ventilation which is how we normally breath. This means you lose muscles associated with breathing. It can take months to recover from less than a week intubated. Anyone who is acutely unwell requiring intubation there is a very high mortality rate. This is even higher with patients with ARDS, which covid patients tend to have. Up to 90 percent intubated in China didn’t survive although a bit better here so far from the anecdotal evidence I’ve heard.

Avoiding intubation by providing early non-invasive CPAP appears to be a good option for certain patients with Covid
I know from my own experience, I was taken off the ventilator from time to time and was breathing via an oxygen mask.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by thatdberight » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:50 pm

Some people assume the government will use the published data and not every other bit of data it has which is not finally verified for publication. Because they just grab the first piece of data that flies past them and treat it as sacrosanct even if they don't fully understand it, they assume that's how everyone works. I notice there was no response to a question asking for evidence for figures being manipulated. Perhaps there isn't any.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Zlatan » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:53 pm

CPAP machines are also used for those with sleep apnoea, I’m feeling lucky I have my own at home

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:23 pm

Grumps wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:00 pm
So, in your opinion, have more, or less, than 180 died in last 24hrs,which is the data I was referring to.
It will have been more in the last 24hours.
But now you have to get a family relative to sign to release that persons number into the count.
I think I would have a lot more on my mind than that. Most people would probably never sign it.

You have loads of sh1t to do, the step sis and I had a list each that took us days to complete.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by KateR » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:24 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:53 pm
CPAP machines are also used for those with sleep apnoea, I’m feeling lucky I have my own at home

You wouldn't want to advertise that in the USA, gun sales through the roof, numerous stores completely sold out of ammunition, makes the mind boggle, it really does.
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Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:29 pm

claretandy wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:01 pm
China have been fiddling the figures, surely you must know this.
Agreed, but would they be selling ventilators to the USA, if they still needed them?

We have two posters who claim to live in Wuhan and saying it’s all getting back to normal. Personally I think that’s as likely as them living on the moon, but they post on here and say they live there. China have a massive propaganda machine I think they work for.

Do you think they still have a problem??

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Re: Covid-19

Post by harryharryharry » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:32 pm

Posted in error.
Last edited by harryharryharry on Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by TheFamilyCat » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:33 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:29 pm
Agreed, but would they be selling ventilators to the USA, if they still needed them?

We have two posters who claim to live in Wuhan and saying it’s all getting back to normal. Personally I think that’s as likely as them living on the moon, but they post on here and say they live there. China have a massive propaganda machine I think they work for.

Do you think they still have a problem??
Can I just check I've understood you correctly; you think two UTC posters who live in Wuhan are working for the Chinese propaganda machine?
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Re: Covid-19

Post by KateR » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:40 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:33 pm
Can I just check I've understood you correctly; you think two UTC posters who live in Wuhan are working for the Chinese propaganda machine?

That's definitely what I read, love a good conspiracy story :) At least it's better than the stats posted and much higher percentage to be true, just in my opinion of course but provided some light relief :lol:

Lowbank, not a personal attack

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:42 pm

thatdberight wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:50 pm
Some people assume the government will use the published data and not every other bit of data it has which is not finally verified for publication. Because they just grab the first piece of data that flies past them and treat it as sacrosanct even if they don't fully understand it, they assume that's how everyone works. I notice there was no response to a question asking for evidence for figures being manipulated. Perhaps there isn't any.
On the flip side, based on the data.

There is no need for a 4000 bed hospital in London and no need for this lockdown.

Taking your side more than that die from flu each day.

So why are we doing this sh1t??

Locked