Mosques have been closed,religious leaders have said not to gather and are holding virtual worship.
So everything reasonable has been done.
You will find people ignoring the rules in all walks of life.
Mosques have been closed,religious leaders have said not to gather and are holding virtual worship.
For me, to just get it and what will be will be. But I have no children or family that depend on me, so I wouldn't be all that concerned of succumbing to it and dying.NottsClaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:30 pmJust wondering, if they had that approach in this country and you were say, under 60 and in good health.. would you rather get it, beat it and crack on - or stay safely holed up for another 6 months?
After 6 months of 24-hour-young children, some would be going out looking for bubonic plague! (Only kidding. )FactualFrank wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:40 pmFor me, to just get it and what will be will be. But I have no children or family that depend on me, so I wouldn't be all that concerned of succumbing to it and dying.
But someone who's married with young children I'm sure would rather stay indoors for another 6 months and not chance it.
NottsClaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:30 pmI read something today about how in Germany they're planning on the mass antibody testing, with a suggestion you'll get a certificate to show when you've had it, beaten it and are now immune and not infectious. Then you can go back to work, and get out and about as usual.
Just wondering, if they had that approach in this country and you were say, under 60 and in good health.. would you rather get it, beat it and crack on - or stay safely holed up for another 6 months?
Certificates and paperwork to show you're worthy in Germany might not go down well with some...NottsClaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:30 pmI read something today about how in Germany they're planning on the mass antibody testing, with a suggestion you'll get a certificate to show when you've had it, beaten it and are now immune and not infectious. Then you can go back to work, and get out and about as usual.
Just wondering, if they had that approach in this country and you were say, under 60 and in good health.. would you rather get it, beat it and crack on - or stay safely holed up for another 6 months?
Inchy, thank you.Inchy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:32 pmJust finished my early shift (8-4) at the covid production line. Was an overtime needed due to sickness
Things continue to ramp up. We are now using non-ICU areas to care for ICU patients. Beds are not an issue yet but it probably will be.
More and more young people being admitted. The elderly or those with significant co-morbidities are being considered for ICU. The home teams along with ICU are making decisions on the appropriateness of admissions. This is nothing new and always happens when considering escalation above ward level care.
I was hoping McLaren F1 were going to create a new amazing ventilator, and watching the news that’s what someone whose doesn’t work in ICU might think. But it seems they have dusted off an old wispy flow system and given it an upgrade. They do work but waste a lot of 02. Something which may be an issue. Still they have done that in a hand Full of days so there is hope for more.
The public have been fantastic. Every day we are receiving gifts from businesses. Hand cream, food, coffee etc. Feels a bit early for all the love. It’s busy but it’s been busier. I hope the love hasn’t peaked too soon. I also hope the elderly wards, nursing homes, and other usual forgotten areas are getting gifts as boosts. As hard and stressful as it is in ICU it doesn’t compare to a day on a dementia ward.
We keep getting told we are 2/3 weeks away from the peak, yet Italy and Spain are not at their peak yet. Some of the consultants are predicting May will be the peak, but no one really knows.
Mentally it’s hard. I am seeing patients I don’t usually see. Fit people. People with only type 1 resp failure (low 02). Patients look very well until you do a proper assessment and arterial blood gas and discover they are profoundly hypoxic. This is confusing for all of us. Most people who normally require ICU look like they are on deaths door. Many of the covid patients look well but are not. The usual end of bed assessment (if they look unwell they are probably very unwell) doesn’t apply.
It’s weird that although it’s busy it isn’t as busy as the media might suggest (I don’t work in London). I sometimes have the thought that maybe it won’t get that bad. But then I realise that isn’t a helpful attitude. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. They are not building hospitals in conference centres for no reason.
Back on nights this week for the first time since this saga started. Could get interesting
Glad you still well Inchy.Inchy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:32 pmJust finished my early shift (8-4) at the covid production line. Was an overtime needed due to sickness
Things continue to ramp up. We are now using non-ICU areas to care for ICU patients. Beds are not an issue yet but it probably will be.
More and more young people being admitted. The elderly or those with significant co-morbidities are being considered for ICU. The home teams along with ICU are making decisions on the appropriateness of admissions. This is nothing new and always happens when considering escalation above ward level care.
I was hoping McLaren F1 were going to create a new amazing ventilator, and watching the news that’s what someone whose doesn’t work in ICU might think. But it seems they have dusted off an old wispy flow system and given it an upgrade. They do work but waste a lot of 02. Something which may be an issue. Still they have done that in a hand Full of days so there is hope for more.
The public have been fantastic. Every day we are receiving gifts from businesses. Hand cream, food, coffee etc. Feels a bit early for all the love. It’s busy but it’s been busier. I hope the love hasn’t peaked too soon. I also hope the elderly wards, nursing homes, and other usual forgotten areas are getting gifts as boosts. As hard and stressful as it is in ICU it doesn’t compare to a day on a dementia ward.
We keep getting told we are 2/3 weeks away from the peak, yet Italy and Spain are not at their peak yet. Some of the consultants are predicting May will be the peak, but no one really knows.
Mentally it’s hard. I am seeing patients I don’t usually see. Fit people. People with only type 1 resp failure (low 02). Patients look very well until you do a proper assessment and arterial blood gas and discover they are profoundly hypoxic. This is confusing for all of us. Most people who normally require ICU look like they are on deaths door. Many of the covid patients look well but are not. The usual end of bed assessment (if they look unwell they are probably very unwell) doesn’t apply.
It’s weird that although it’s busy it isn’t as busy as the media might suggest (I don’t work in London). I sometimes have the thought that maybe it won’t get that bad. But then I realise that isn’t a helpful attitude. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. They are not building hospitals in conference centres for no reason.
Back on nights this week for the first time since this saga started. Could get interesting
It would be if they were not being manipulated.
Could you get yourself a mask and glasses.Zlatan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:05 pmInchy, thank you.
I have a question though, which with my very limited knowledge on the subject troubles me in terms of understanding.
Those fit and healthy medical staff who have unfortunately succumbed to the virus have spent a lot of time in and around patients who I understand are carrying a large viral load, and as such are also exposed to a large viral load. My little mind has wondered if the outcomes of some of the patients who have succumbed been more favourable had they stayed at home and tried to sweat it out (so to speak) instead of exposing themselves to even more viral load in a hospital ward? Essentially what I am asking is whether grouping a lot of people who have the virus together is magnifying the impact of the virus en-masse?
I am also due to go to my local hospital for my next infusion (Infiximab - hence my classification as extremely vulnerable) on the 1st May and I need to get clarity as to whether I go into the hospital or not for this - my gut feeling says not to as my underlying health condition is currently in remission. I'll pass on what I find out.
and again, thank you for being on the front line.
Zlatan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:05 pmInchy, thank you.
I have a question though, which with my very limited knowledge on the subject troubles me in terms of understanding.
Those fit and healthy medical staff who have unfortunately succumbed to the virus have spent a lot of time in and around patients who I understand are carrying a large viral load, and as such are also exposed to a large viral load. My little mind has wondered if the outcomes of some of the patients who have succumbed been more favourable had they stayed at home and tried to sweat it out (so to speak) instead of exposing themselves to even more viral load in a hospital ward? Essentially what I am asking is whether grouping a lot of people who have the virus together is magnifying the impact of the virus en-masse?
I am also due to go to my local hospital for my next infusion (Infiximab - hence my classification as extremely vulnerable) on the 1st May and I need to get clarity as to whether I go into the hospital or not for this - my gut feeling says not to as my underlying health condition is currently in remission. I'll pass on what I find out.
and again, thank you for being on the front line.
Any evidence of your claims?Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:09 pmIt would be if they were not being manipulated.
At least we got clear data today that admissions were increasing by 1000 per day.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... istic.html
I know you would not walk away.Inchy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:19 pmIn terms of your infiximab, I don’t know why you are taking it but I would speak to your consultant directly.
In terms of viral load, and admittedly I am a critical care nurse not a microbiologist, from my understanding the viral load you are initially infected with is the issue. Not the cumulative effect, although I could be taking rubbish. If you’re an ICU consultant and you tube a patient and in the process you get a face full of sputum from a covid patient then you are at greater risk of severe illness. The sicker someone is the higher the viral load. Hence why critical care staff are at particularly high risk as the patients are very sick to even be under our care.
Lowbank, PPE is an issue unfortunately.
As I mentioned previously NHs England’s guidelines fall short of HSE and the WHO. Supply of PPE is limited but available. We are having to seriously think about when it’s appropriate to leave an infected area as we will have to remove PPE then reapply after. Visor were an issue. We ran out at one point last week but we now have stock. Fortunately I bought goggles from amazon a few weeks ago predicting this would happen. Also B and Q had goggles so some were procured from there as an interim.
Unfortunately this is a global pandemic that nobody saw coming. Nobody had the volume of masks, gowns, and visors just laying around in warehouses that would be required. Some of my colleagues are not taking it as well as me. They are worried. Some Local companies are now switching to ppe production if possible which is good.
We may run out of PPE in the future and working in critical care that isn’t ideal with the viral load issue. I’m hardly going to walk away though am I
I saw BBC so comment, but doubt they make the figures upLowbankclaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:12 pmThe graphs were shown on sky news after the Gov presentation.
Funny enough have just watched a program with a doctor who is asked questions from the public and answers to the best of her ability. I have no idea what a CPAP machine was/is, but that was a question form the public about using them, adapting to help with the lack of ventilators. Her answer was that a CPAP machine forces air through and therefore will spread the virus more and put the patient and more importantly the care people in the room at greater risk. Of course am not commentating on what Maclaren have done but the CPAP machines should not be used, others with far greater knowledge will help with this for better definition but thought I would comment only on the CPAP as it was very coincidental.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:06 pmGlad you still well Inchy.
Also glad your not saying you are lacking PPE.
From what I have read today the team inc Maclaren have picked a CPAP machine that was out of patent, they have improved it and can produce a few thousand a week.
Also from what I have read this type of equipment can keep people out of ICU which hopefully can be a good thing.
I agree with your worry on oxygen supply, that would be a disaster if that ran out.
Hope you stay well, and all our thanks for your work
The government's plan is far more complicated than what I'm suggesting, and it doesn't cover everyone. Far more simple to pay out the same per person sum to the whole country. By not putting on hold wages, rents, loan repayments, and mortgages, the government is putting at risk many small businesses that have closed down as a public duty, and have no chance to earn money to pay these overheads. And not to mention the people who aren't covered by the government's scheme, or renters, who now make up a slightly larger proportion of the population than home owners. Why pay to cover some people and not others? Why allow people a mortgage holiday, but not renters? It'll only lead to more problems in the future.Paul Waine wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:16 amThe good Lord likes a trier, Andrew and you keep trying....
Why make things so difficult? On your "new money" idea, "just print it." And, how long do you think "producing a different currency" would take? How long do you think it would take to "print?" (but, why not digital)? How long do you think it would take to distribute?
Setting up the 80% furloughed pay support and the self-employed support requires several weeks (and people complain...). Do you think your ideas could be implemented faster.... or would take even longer to set up?
Of course, if you want to wreak the economy you are on to the right idea, let's just print money. That's worked well on every other occasion when a government has "just printed money." But, I think we are all agreed that we need a strong economy to be able to do the right things for the people in the UK and beyond.
Take care. Stay safe.
Says exactly what I said, no proof of fiddling the figsLowbankclaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:19 pmHere you go.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-day.html
I knew you could do it, does it not feel better spreading a bit of good news, keep it up, it will do you a world of good.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:37 pmSpain and Italy’s cases are stabilising, that’s good news.
Yes I am China has shown the way, no new internal transmissions for a week. Reducing active cases.
F1 consortium has come up with a CPAP machine it can make in thousands quickly that can reduce load on ICU. India will need millions so F1 workshops will be flat out.
PPE manufacture is ramping up.
Testing is ramping up, but when New York is testing 15 k per day we have a way to go.
Bad things
America’s cases are growing massively
A week ago China was charging $20k for a ventilator, today it’s $50k. That going to lead to backlash against China.
India , South Africa and African countries are going to be hit hard.
Even under questioning on the Gov presentation today he admitted the data could lag by a couple of weeks. That’s ok if your ok with our Gov using data that’s two weeks old to make decisions on lockdown.
Nothing is certain though about being young and fit and not dying from it. What you don't want is to have it hit you harder than it has most other people, and have the misfortune of that happening on a day when it's also hit a lot of other people in the same area the same way. Forty patients and only twenty ventilators means the choice is in the hands of the doctors.NottsClaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:30 pmI read something today about how in Germany they're planning on the mass antibody testing, with a suggestion you'll get a certificate to show when you've had it, beaten it and are now immune and not infectious. Then you can go back to work, and get out and about as usual.
Just wondering, if they had that approach in this country and you were say, under 60 and in good health.. would you rather get it, beat it and crack on - or stay safely holed up for another 6 months?
So, in your opinion, have more, or less, than 180 died in last 24hrs,which is the data I was referring to.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:45 pmEven under questioning on the Gov presentation today he admitted the data could lag by a couple of weeks. That’s ok if your ok with our Gov using data that’s two weeks old to make decisions on lockdown.
Will you be ok being on lockdown for an extra two weeks due to data lag.
China have been fiddling the figures, surely you must know this.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:37 pmSpain and Italy’s cases are stabilising, that’s good news.
Yes I am China has shown the way, no new internal transmissions for a week. Reducing active cases.
F1 consortium has come up with a CPAP machine it can make in thousands quickly that can reduce load on ICU. India will need millions so F1 workshops will be flat out.
PPE manufacture is ramping up.
Testing is ramping up, but when New York is testing 15 k per day we have a way to go.
Bad things
America’s cases are growing massively
A week ago China was charging $20k for a ventilator, today it’s $50k. That going to lead to backlash against China.
India , South Africa and African countries are going to be hit hard.
KateR wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:23 pmFunny enough have just watched a program with a doctor who is asked questions from the public and answers to the best of her ability. I have no idea what a CPAP machine was/is, but that was a question form the public about using them, adapting to help with the lack of ventilators. Her answer was that a CPAP machine forces air through and therefore will spread the virus more and put the patient and more importantly the care people in the room at greater risk. Of course am not commentating on what Maclaren have done but the CPAP machines should not be used, others with far greater knowledge will help with this for better definition but thought I would comment only on the CPAP as it was very coincidental.
I know from my own experience, I was taken off the ventilator from time to time and was breathing via an oxygen mask.Inchy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:22 pmAs soon as someone is intubated the ventilator is doing all the work delivering positive pressure ventilation, compared to negative pressure ventilation which is how we normally breath. This means you lose muscles associated with breathing. It can take months to recover from less than a week intubated. Anyone who is acutely unwell requiring intubation there is a very high mortality rate. This is even higher with patients with ARDS, which covid patients tend to have. Up to 90 percent intubated in China didn’t survive although a bit better here so far from the anecdotal evidence I’ve heard.
Avoiding intubation by providing early non-invasive CPAP appears to be a good option for certain patients with Covid
It will have been more in the last 24hours.
Agreed, but would they be selling ventilators to the USA, if they still needed them?claretandy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:01 pmChina have been fiddling the figures, surely you must know this.
Can I just check I've understood you correctly; you think two UTC posters who live in Wuhan are working for the Chinese propaganda machine?Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:29 pmAgreed, but would they be selling ventilators to the USA, if they still needed them?
We have two posters who claim to live in Wuhan and saying it’s all getting back to normal. Personally I think that’s as likely as them living on the moon, but they post on here and say they live there. China have a massive propaganda machine I think they work for.
Do you think they still have a problem??
TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:33 pmCan I just check I've understood you correctly; you think two UTC posters who live in Wuhan are working for the Chinese propaganda machine?
On the flip side, based on the data.thatdberight wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:50 pmSome people assume the government will use the published data and not every other bit of data it has which is not finally verified for publication. Because they just grab the first piece of data that flies past them and treat it as sacrosanct even if they don't fully understand it, they assume that's how everyone works. I notice there was no response to a question asking for evidence for figures being manipulated. Perhaps there isn't any.