Covid-19

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
NottsClaret
Posts: 3576
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 2588 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: Covid-19

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:09 am

CombatClaret wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:57 am
UK death toll is now higher than Italy’s at the same stage and accelerating faster.
You’re right but let’s try not to panic. As grim as it is, it takes on average 23 days from being infected to death - if that’s the outcome.

It’s only 13 days since we closed schools. People were still going to concerts, racing, football, the pubs and cramming into the tube. Most will be fine of course, but those infections spread then will have been passed on and the lag is going to be a long one.

Death rates will go up every day for at least another 10 days. Reacting with fear and desperation every time isn’t going to help. When all this is over, that’ll be the time to look at why we waited so long.
This user liked this post: Grumps

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:51 am

thatdberight wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:59 pm
It doesn't work like that. It's like when a linesman gets the movement of ball, passer, receiver, two defenders and another forward wrong and gives a marginal offside the wrong way. The manager bleats about that after the match despite the real problem being the three sitters his centre-forward missed...

Peston, at least, did correct himself. Unlike Nick Watt of Newsnight whose misreporting started the much-parroted, "They're fixing the numbers by making family members sign off the CoVid19 diagnosis" nonsense.
Listening to R4 just now (7:40 a.m.) BBC: "China has controlled covid-19, we must learn how they have done that. We can speak to a Brit living in Wuhan." Brit in Wuhan: "We are still in lockdown after 2 and 1/2 months. If you have a certificate that states you don't have covid-19 then you are allowed out of your home for 2 hours to buy food."
This user liked this post: Bfcboyo

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:51 am

thatdberight wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:58 pm
What lie was this?
Gove complained that we did not have enough “reagents” to produce testing kits. UK chemical industry said that as the the case, and that in a meeting with a business secretary they hadn’t even been asked if this was a problem.

Bfcboyo
Posts: 1965
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:30 pm
Been Liked: 441 times
Has Liked: 355 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Bfcboyo » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:58 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:51 am
Listening to R4 just now (7:40 a.m.) BBC: "China has controlled covid-19, we must learn how they have done that. We can speak to a Brit living in Wuhan." Brit in Wuhan: "We are still in lockdown after 2 and 1/2 months. If you have a certificate that states you don't have covid-19 then you are allowed out of your home for 2 hours to buy food."
Finally a bit of truth getting out. Poor fella wont see the sunrise again . He was a brave gentleman, God bless him.

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:36 am

CombatClaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:25 pm
I just think when it's clear from Day 1 (which should have been some time in January) you have not got the capacity needed you should be stating to look for external solutions.
I'm sure someone in the German government will be overseeing and collating all these disparate elements toward the common goal.

It just seeks like very basic oversight and the sort of stuff you should have war gamed years ago.

The fact that we did actually war game this very situation in 2016, revealing gaping flaws in our emergency response plan, and based on the results we seem to have done nothing to improve.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... overnment/
Interesting, Combat. It appears that there were no private sector entities involved with Cygnus. That's a big failing. It's all civil service/NHS/public bodies thinking. We will get on top of covid-19 by using all the country's resources, private sector capabilities alongside the public sector. There was a guy on R4 this morning from Francis Crick Institute. He spoke about how they have been able to redeploy their medical research capabilities to covid-19 testing. Agility was the key to making this change. Capacity for another 2,000 tests per day.

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:39 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:51 am
Gove complained that we did not have enough “reagents” to produce testing kits. UK chemical industry said that as the the case, and that in a meeting with a business secretary they hadn’t even been asked if this was a problem.
Hi Andrew, and Francis Crick Institute this morning said that reagents was one of challenges, so they are making their own - but, supply chains remain a problem.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:05 am

Public Health England- official clanger droppers.

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:07 am

For any freelancers, self-employed, directors of own business, IPSE webinar today.

Coronavirus support: what can you get?
Webinar: 12:30 - 1:30pm, Thursday 2nd April 2020


Last week, the government announced a far-reaching package of support for freelancers and the self-employed.
It covers most self-employed people who work as sole traders, but not people working through limited companies.

IPSE is looking into the options for limited companies and what else we can push the government to do for them.

For the moment, people working through limited companies have to navigate a complex combination of packages such as the Business Interruption Loan Scheme and the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme.

Webinar: 12:30 - 1:30pm, Thursday 2nd April 2020

IPSE is hosting a webinar to guide you through what's on offer. It will be led by IPSE's Director of Policy Andy Chamberlain, Policy Development Manager Alasdair Hutchison and Economic Policy Adviser Ryan Barnett.

Whether you are a sole trader or work through a limited company, let us take you through the options.
In the webinar, you'll also hear what further support IPSE believes could be possible for contractors working through limited companies.

Our experts will also discuss why proposing the same measures for limited companies as for sole traders could undermine the case for scrapping or delaying IR35.
You can send your questions for them in advance to policyqueries@ipse.co.uk
Places are limited so book now

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by thatdberight » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:08 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:51 am
Gove complained that we did not have enough “reagents” to produce testing kits. UK chemical industry said that as the the case, and that in a meeting with a business secretary they hadn’t even been asked if this was a problem.
This came from Robert Peston's reporting. Peston changed his story shortly afterwards admitting there are shortages. There are also multiple, global sources referencing this shortage.

It says a lot that so many people heard the original story from Peston that Gove had lied, latched on to it and repeated it but somehow missed the follow-up.
These 2 users liked this post: Damo KateR

NottsClaret
Posts: 3576
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 2588 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: Covid-19

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:23 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:51 am
Listening to R4 just now (7:40 a.m.) BBC: "China has controlled covid-19, we must learn how they have done that. We can speak to a Brit living in Wuhan." Brit in Wuhan: "We are still in lockdown after 2 and 1/2 months. If you have a certificate that states you don't have covid-19 then you are allowed out of your home for 2 hours to buy food."
Just read this on the BBC, before we get too carried away with our admiration for China's approach:

"China has approved the use of bear bile to treat critically ill coronavirus patients.

The National Health Commission has recommended the use of Tan Re Qing - an injection that contains bear bile, goat horn and herbs - to treat patients with Covid-19.

But there is no evidence the mixture has any medicinal value.

Bear bile, which is produced in the liver and stored in the gall bladder, has been used in traditional Chinese medicine for hundreds of years and fetches a high price in the illegal international market.

The move to approve its use has angered animal rights activists and comes just weeks after the country banned the sale of wild animals for food."

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:29 am

thatdberight wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:08 am
This came from Robert Peston's reporting. Peston changed his story shortly afterwards admitting there are shortages. There are also multiple, global sources referencing this shortage.

It says a lot that so many people heard the original story from Peston that Gove had lied, latched on to it and repeated it but somehow missed the follow-up.

On here-par for the course.

Grumps
Posts: 4145
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:15 am
Been Liked: 954 times
Has Liked: 359 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Grumps » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:52 am

Pestons a prick, he was before this crisis, he will be after it. Loves the sound of his own voice far too much for a serious interviewer, a bit in the Piers Morgan mould.

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:14 am

NottsClaret wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:23 am
Just read this on the BBC, before we get too carried away with our admiration for China's approach:

"China has approved the use of bear bile to treat critically ill coronavirus patients.

The National Health Commission has recommended the use of Tan Re Qing - an injection that contains bear bile, goat horn and herbs - to treat patients with Covid-19.

But there is no evidence the mixture has any medicinal value.

Bear bile, which is produced in the liver and stored in the gall bladder, has been used in traditional Chinese medicine for hundreds of years and fetches a high price in the illegal international market.

The move to approve its use has angered animal rights activists and comes just weeks after the country banned the sale of wild animals for food."
I think I'll pass on the "bear bile cure."

Is there an explanation what "approved" means in this context? Surely not "we think this may work..."???

I bet it's angered the bears, also. :(

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:16 am

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:45 am
All bickering and w@nkeridge pointless point scoring aside we've just lost a close family friend this evening due to the COVID19 virus.

It's on your local doorstep believe me!

Admitted around 8pm this evening and dead before 10:15

Now get that through your thick fu**ing heads
I am sorry for your loss.

My friends lost their Mum yesterday as well. You are right it’s around us now.

I have not looked but I am told there’s nothing in any of the local papers/online saying how many have died at Blackburn hospital.

NottsClaret
Posts: 3576
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 2588 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: Covid-19

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:25 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:14 am
I think I'll pass on the "bear bile cure."

Is there an explanation what "approved" means in this context? Surely not "we think this may work..."???

I bet it's angered the bears, also. :(
Someone ate a bat-fed Pangolin to cause all this fuss, and the way out is glugging bear bile. Terrific.

TheFamilyCat
Posts: 10839
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
Been Liked: 5516 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by TheFamilyCat » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:33 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:05 am
Public Health England- official clanger droppers.
Care to explain?

Steve1956
Posts: 17178
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:57 pm
Been Liked: 6463 times
Has Liked: 2896 times
Location: Fife

Re: Covid-19

Post by Steve1956 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:34 am

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:45 am
All bickering and w@nkeridge pointless point scoring aside we've just lost a close family friend this evening due to the COVID19 virus.

It's on your local doorstep believe me!

Admitted around 8pm this evening and dead before 10:15

Now get that through your thick fu**ing heads
It only hits home when sadly people we know succumb to this virus,sorry for your loss buddy

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5201 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:00 am

thatdberight wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:08 am
This came from Robert Peston's reporting. Peston changed his story shortly afterwards admitting there are shortages. There are also multiple, global sources referencing this shortage.

It says a lot that so many people heard the original story from Peston that Gove had lied, latched on to it and repeated it but somehow missed the follow-up.
I would just add to give the full context to Peston's retraction that whilst he did confirm that govt sources and the CMO (a couple of weeks ago) along with the head of CDC in the US did state there were shortages he also added that the Chemical Industry Association felt it could help find a solution.

There is an argument that if we are thinking outside the box like with McLaren and Dyson for ventilators we could have been trying to do the same for testing and the chemical reagents issue

It doesn't justify Pestons original accusation but it is more complex than a direct retraction and acceptance that the govt couldn't have done more in this area

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Spijed » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:06 am

Analysis: 'UK Government sees antibody test as exit strategy'

Norman Smith

Assistant political editor

I thought it was interesting in the video posted by the prime minister he did not mention this 25,000 daily testing target we have heard from government ministers throughout the crisis. There is a sense, I think, it is beginning to slip as they find it increasingly difficult to get the necessary test.

It is clear the government’s hope of attacking the virus rests not with a current coronavirus test, but with the separate proposed antibody test which will establish if people have immunity from the virus.

It is not up and running, it is still in the development stage, but the government has ordered 3.5m of those tests and the hope is that it will help ministers establish if people have built up an immunity to the virus and can be released from the lockdown.

That is which the government believes could provide way out of this crisis and that is which they are looking to mass test.

It doesn't get us out of the current situation or help to identify people who have coronavirus. So that test is of no use now but down the road the government believes that could be the exit strategy.

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:06 am

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:45 am
All bickering and w@nkeridge pointless point scoring aside we've just lost a close family friend this evening due to the COVID19 virus.
It's on your local doorstep believe me!
Admitted around 8pm this evening and dead before 10:15
Now get that through your thick fu**ing heads
Deeply sorry to hear, millions will be effected by the loss of a friend or loved one sadly.

I'm bickering because I'm angry on your behalf, I believe your friend might not have died If we'd managed this better.
I don't care what colour rosette anyone wears, If I see people in charge making a mess of the situation it should be called out.
This user liked this post: Zlatan

LoveCurryPies
Posts: 4287
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:00 am
Been Liked: 1599 times
Has Liked: 679 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by LoveCurryPies » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:09 am

SKY NEWS

Patients could have their ventilators and treatment withdrawn, if patients that are more likely to survive need them.

This is new medical advice to doctors.

So older people or those with more fragile health might not be treated. 🙁

Steve1956
Posts: 17178
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:57 pm
Been Liked: 6463 times
Has Liked: 2896 times
Location: Fife

Re: Covid-19

Post by Steve1956 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:18 am

LoveCurryPies wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:09 am
SKY NEWS

Patients could have their ventilators and treatment withdrawn, if patients that are more likely to survive need them.

This is new medical advice to doctors.

So older people or those with more fragile health might not be treated. 🙁
Which is a scandal everyone has a right to be treated,wouldn't like to be the guy making decisions who lives and who dosent...very sad times :(

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:27 am

LoveCurryPies wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:09 am
SKY NEWS
Patients could have their ventilators and treatment withdrawn, if patients that are more likely to survive need them.

This is new medical advice to doctors.
So older people or those with more fragile health might not be treated. 🙁
Sounds like we have about 8000 ventilators.
10,000 patients now hospitalized,that number rises every day.
Sadly there will not be nearly enough to go around so doctors will have to chose essentially who lives and who dies.

And the 'ramping up' in production will see only 30 of the 30,000 promised delivered this weekend. Specialists companies have been pointing this out, large scale manufacture, especially by companies not already in the sector, will take weeks. We'll be well past the peak by the time these thing are available

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by thatdberight » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:29 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:00 am

There is an argument that if we are thinking outside the box like with McLaren and Dyson for ventilators we could have been trying to do the same for testing and the chemical reagents issue
Perhaps the government is worried that those outside the box who can help are "Tory donors" so they'd get criticised for getting them involved as they have with the ventilators. There's always a twist that those who are opposed to a government, and who wouldn't want the deaths to go to waste, can put on every action.

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by thatdberight » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:30 am

CombatClaret wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:06 am

I don't care what colour rosette anyone wears...
This, quite obviously from your posts, is not the case. Not even in this context. This is clearly, at least partly, a party political issue for you.
This user liked this post: Damo

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5201 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:31 am

thatdberight wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:29 am
Perhaps the government is worried that those outside the box who can help are "Tory donors" so they'd get criticised for getting them involved as they have with the ventilators. There's always a twist that those who are opposed to a government, and who wouldn't want the deaths to go to waste, can put on every action.
I wasn't trying to put any slant on things and have no idea on how accurate any of the parties are in their comments but I thought having the fuller context was useful to the wider discussion.

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:33 am

thatdberight wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:30 am
This, quite obviously from your posts, is not the case. Not even in this context. This is clearly, at least partly, a party political issue for you.
So I am unable to critise the people in charge for obvious failings without it being party political?
As the saying goes you can only play the team in front of you, I can only react to the actions of the party in power.

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by thatdberight » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:37 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:31 am
I wasn't trying to put any slant on things and have no idea on how accurate any of the parties are in their comments but I thought having the fuller context was useful to the wider discussion.
It wasn't a pop at you.

As I always said on this one, Peston's follow up contained some questions of merit although given that he took a wrong turn on such a publicly available, multiply sourced, worldwide published fact as the shortages, I think it would be sensible to be a bit wary about his report of what an unnamed source at the CIA says was or wasn't raised by a junior business minister in a meeting / call.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5201 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:39 am

thatdberight wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:37 am
It wasn't a pop at you.

As I always said on this one, Peston's follow up contained some questions of merit although given that he took a wrong turn on such a publicly available, multiply sourced, worldwide published fact as the shortages, I think it would be sensible to be a bit wary about his report of what an unnamed source at the CIA says was or wasn't raised by a junior business minister in a meeting / call.
Fair enough and I wasn't taking it as a pop. I respect that people on this thread have tried to keep things more politics free and was just making clear that my comment was in the interest of transparency and with no hidden political agenda

NottsClaret
Posts: 3576
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 2588 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: Covid-19

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:46 am

LoveCurryPies wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:09 am
SKY NEWS

Patients could have their ventilators and treatment withdrawn, if patients that are more likely to survive need them.

This is new medical advice to doctors.

So older people or those with more fragile health might not be treated. 🙁
Going to be awful decisions to make before the peak - supposedly around next weekend. Terrible for the doctors involved.

Of course, on a removed from the reality level, NICE make decisions like this all the time. Isn't it about £30,000 put on the value of one year of life? That's how they work out who should be put forward for treatment and who should be 'made comfortable'.

Clearly making these decisions by the hundred with the patients all around you will be massively more traumatic but here we are. Nothing to be done now other than wish them all the best.

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Spijed » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:48 am

NottsClaret wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:46 am
Going to be awful decisions to make before the peak - supposedly around next weekend. Terrible for the doctors involved.

Of course, on a removed from the reality level, NICE make decisions like this all the time. Isn't it about £30,000 put on the value of one year of life? That's how they work out who should be put forward for treatment and who should be 'made comfortable'.

Clearly making these decisions by the hundred with the patients all around you will be massively more traumatic but here we are. Nothing to be done now other than wish them all the best.
So completely pointless to order 30,000 ventilators if by the time they are made we'll have reached the peak and it will have slowed down a bit.

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:21 pm

Spijed wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:48 am
So completely pointless to order 30,000 ventilators if by the time they are made we'll have reached the peak and it will have slowed down a bit.

Half the worlds ventilators are made in the EU, just a fun fact. Specialist companies already tooled up and making them as we speak.

Took Dyson 10 days to design it's ventilator, fast but we need them today. Will take at least a week or two to get medical regulatory approval, fast but we need them today. Two weeks after that to begin production...

In response to the meagre 30 being delivered this weekend, prime ministers spokesperson said "hundreds more will be delivered in the coming weeks"
So we should reach our 30,000 target in, September maybe?

Hapag Lloyd
Posts: 584
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:24 am
Been Liked: 285 times
Has Liked: 423 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Hapag Lloyd » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:27 pm

CombatClaret wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:21 pm
Half the worlds ventilators are made in the EU, just a fun fact. Specialist companies already tooled up and making them as we speak.
How do we make these companies sell to us when their own governments are buying everything they can produce?

TVC15
Posts: 8211
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3321 times
Has Liked: 601 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by TVC15 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:35 pm

Spijed wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:48 am
So completely pointless to order 30,000 ventilators if by the time they are made we'll have reached the peak and it will have slowed down a bit.
Yes probably - especially as that peak is currently predicted to be on the 12th April.

You can’t reverse 10 years of cutbacks in 2 or 3 weeks.
Remember Germanys starting position was 30,000 ventilators before the crisis - ours was 6,000.

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by thatdberight » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:35 pm

Hapag Lloyd wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:27 pm
How do we make these companies sell to us when their own governments are buying everything they can produce?
And when Macron made a French company cancel an NHS PPE order so France could commandeer all the stock.

When Trump even thinks about doing something akin to that, he's an insular savage. Silence when Macron actually pulls that stunt.

Why? Because the criticism is more about underlying biases.
These 2 users liked this post: Bfcboyo KateR

TVC15
Posts: 8211
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3321 times
Has Liked: 601 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by TVC15 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:37 pm

Hapag Lloyd wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:27 pm
How do we make these companies sell to us when their own governments are buying everything they can produce?
In the same way we currently have British companies manufacturing PPE who are currently exporting more to other countries than they are selling to the British government.
That’s the free market

Mala591
Posts: 1887
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:02 pm
Been Liked: 681 times
Has Liked: 428 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Mala591 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:57 pm

Am I right in my understanding that significant number of patients will only need a CPAP (continuous positive air pressure) machine and not a full ventilator?

And before you ask I've no idea what the supply situation is with CPAP machines is.

NottsClaret
Posts: 3576
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 2588 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: Covid-19

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:58 pm

Interesting bit here, on perspective and assessing risk around Covid19. Pretty unpalatable today, but attempting to save every life in the next month by any means will unquestionably cost lives over the next few years. Like it or not, we'll have to find a balance somehow. With the current frenzy and panic, that's not going to be a discussion to have just yet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:59 pm

Mala591 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:57 pm
Am I right in my understanding that significant number of patients will only need a CPAP (continuous positive air pressure) machine and not a full ventilator?
And before you ask I've no idea what the supply situation is with CPAP machines is.
They've shown to be as effective in some cases, one issue which was brought up is that they are very inefficient and waste a lot Oxygen which is also in short supply.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:02 pm

thatdberight wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:08 am
This came from Robert Peston's reporting. Peston changed his story shortly afterwards admitting there are shortages. There are also multiple, global sources referencing this shortage.

It says a lot that so many people heard the original story from Peston that Gove had lied, latched on to it and repeated it but somehow missed the follow-up.
That happens all the time - especially on the other side of the political divide. Still haven’t found any articles, but willing to wait and look later.

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Spijed » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:03 pm

NottsClaret wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:58 pm
Interesting bit here, on perspective and assessing risk around Covid19. Pretty unpalatable today, but attempting to save every life in the next month by any means will unquestionably cost lives over the next few years. Like it or not, we'll have to find a balance somehow. With the current frenzy and panic, that's not going to be a discussion to have just yet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654
You'd imagine the number of deaths directly attributed to conventional flu and Pneumonia will be significantly down this year.

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by thatdberight » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:05 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:02 pm
That happens all the time
Yes. On all topics from all viewpoints.
AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:02 pm
especially on the other side of the political divide.
Well, of course you'd say that

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:15 pm

Hapag Lloyd wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:27 pm
How do we make these companies sell to us when their own governments are buying everything they can produce?
We can't force them now, but if we'd have gotten our order in first they'd be obliged, as pointed out free market.

Or we could have joined the EU procurement scheme. Which we were aware of weeks beforehand, but then said we lost the email, then said we didn't want to join anyway because we can go it alone, then retracted that but refused to confirm the email mix up and only went on record as 'there was some confusion over our involvement'.

There's also UK companies like MEC Medical, which makes ventilator parts who told the Financial Times that they could have delivered 500 ventilators a week ago “if they got back to me straight away”, adding: “They’ve missed the boat.”

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by thatdberight » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:15 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:02 pm
That happens all the time - especially on the other side of the political divide. Still haven’t found any articles, but willing to wait and look later.
Since your google is broken... the very same source who first said that it wasn't true.

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1245068919586590720

"There are none so blind as those who are blinded by their hatred of one political party" might be a good reworking for our modern age.
Last edited by thatdberight on Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This user liked this post: KateR

NottsClaret
Posts: 3576
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 2588 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: Covid-19

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:16 pm

Spijed wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:03 pm
You'd imagine the number of deaths directly attributed to conventional flu and Pneumonia will be significantly down this year.
Even with the pandemic peaking, I wouldn't be surprised if deaths in the first half of 2020 are down on previous years. Some people have no idea just how many people die every month in the UK normally. Although it's going to go up in the coming years, as the missed healthcare treatments from this year, plus a new round of austerity, stress and poverty kicks in.

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by thatdberight » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:23 pm

CombatClaret wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:15 pm
There's also UK companies like MEC Medical, which makes ventilator parts who told the Financial Times that they could have delivered 500 ventilators a week ago “if they got back to me straight away”, adding: “They’ve missed the boat.”
"They could have had probably 500 ventilators if they got back to me straight away...”

Probably, he says. He certainly couldn't deliver them. He just makes parts. He may be right - he'll know the marketplace but this is not somebody writing to the Civil Service and saying, "I've got 500 of these". His suggestion is that there were 500 which were just missing his part (?) and if asked he could have supplied the missing part, I presume.

Dy1geo
Posts: 858
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:17 pm
Been Liked: 211 times
Has Liked: 62 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Dy1geo » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:24 pm

According to Evening Standard a guy from Burnley a Callum Heaton aged 23 has been jailed for 12 months for spitting at two officers while claiming he was infected with the virus.

Loyalclaret
Posts: 2015
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 426 times
Has Liked: 364 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by Loyalclaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:32 pm


AlargeClaret
Posts: 4423
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:55 pm
Been Liked: 1147 times
Has Liked: 180 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by AlargeClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:32 pm

I’d imagine the approx 550k annual deaths we have in normal circs won’t change that much due to many dying of Covid who would have died anyway in that period . Not that that justifies anything but 45k ish deaths a month is quite a figure

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:35 pm

thatdberight wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:23 pm
"They could have had probably 500 ventilators if they got back to me straight away...”

Probably, he says. He certainly couldn't deliver them. He just makes parts. He may be right - he'll know the marketplace but this is not somebody writing to the Civil Service and saying, "I've got 500 of these". His suggestion is that there were 500 which were just missing his part (?) and if asked he could have supplied the missing part, I presume.
All you've done is add unfounded conjecture and speculation to someone in a specialist industry who's gone on record with the FT. I can find nothing to suggest what you've claimed, that either they couldn't deliver them or that he just had missing parts.

The only other quotes from him are his skepticism of the government providing huge contracts with non medical companies
“I can’t see it being feasible,” he said. “They should be putting their efforts into existing manufacturers of ventilators, and trying to upscale their production.”
On Dyson:
“They’re not days away. They’re going to be weeks away. And the volume that our government requires, and the manufacturing that’s going to have to go into these … there’s no quick solution,” he said.

So far that's proven to be 100% correct.

Locked