Covid-19

[thatdberight]

Why isn’t it the right time to ask those questions now?

Unless it helps current actions, why investigate an outcome that's not settled? Why waste the energy on that?

Unless, of course, what some are really worried about us that a party political advantage will be lost by not striking while the iron is hot.

[Spijed]

People can ask the questions right now. But there often wont be answers. The focus needs to be on continuing to respond to the emergency.

But what if our government continues to make far more mistakes than other countries seem to be doing?

[evensteadiereddie]

If you are in government, you are accountable and any uncomfortable truths must be faced.
I'm assuming Tories are dismayed at lives having been lost needlessly too.

[ksrclaret]

Unless, of course, what some are really worried about us that a party political advantage will be lost by not striking while the iron is hot.

Quite correct. I presume this is why the right are falling over themselves to say what a great job the government are doing. The outcome is not settled so why the hurry?

[taio]

But what if our government continues to make far more mistakes than other countries seem to be doing?

There needs to be a full inquiry later. If questions can be answered now that will inform and improve the response then of course they should be. What specific questions do you have in mind?

[Rileybobs]

People can ask the questions right now. But there often wont be answers. The focus needs to be on continuing to respond to the emergency.

Totally agree. People are still entitled to ask questions of the government as this thing is playing out though.

[Rileybobs]

Unless it helps current actions, why investigate an outcome that's not settled? Why waste the energy on that?

Unless, of course, what some are really worried about us that a party political advantage will be lost by not striking while the iron is hot.

I’m not talking about investigations. I’m talking about people on a message board asking questions of the government.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Be waiting a while for the result of any inquiry from this lot.

[taio]

Totally agree. People are still entitled to ask questions of the government as this thing is playing out though.

Yes of course they are entitled to do that.

[Spijed]

There needs to be a full inquiry later. If questions can be answered now that will inform and improve the response then of course they should be. What specific questions do you have in mind?

For a start why don't we think it's important to test people close to those that have been infected?

[Jakubclaret]

Why isn’t it the right time to ask those questions now?

Can't believe you've asked that question, well I can actually as an exception, bang right in the middle of an pandemic with so much happening on the front & somehow you think it could perhaps be an appropriate time to launch an investigation/inquiry & potentially derail/jeopodise the efforts taking place now as we speak in a non literal sense, right now & onwards everybody who's working hard during this crisis need backing & as much support as possible & any distraction will undermine the very purpose.

[thatdberight]

Quite correct. I presume this is why the right are falling over themselves to say what a great job the government are doing. The outcome is not settled so why the hurry?

And yet we had people on here linking newspaper headlines saying these showed the right-wing press were turning against the government. I don't mind what the argument it is. As long as it's not inconsistent and completely contradictory.

But yes, it's too early to make judgement in either direction about the overall decisions of government, NHS, Civil Service etc. If that helps, we're in agreement.

[taio]

Be waiting a while for the result of any inquiry from this lot.

An inquiry will certainly take a while - it will be complex, vast and presumably independent.

[taio]

For a start why don't we think it's important to test people close to those that have been infected?

Easy answer. It is important.

[thatdberight]

I’m not talking about investigations. I’m talking about people on a message board asking questions of the government.

Oh, right. Yes, of course, it's always the right time for people of all political persuasions to gob off pointlessly on internet message boards. Long may it be so.

[Rileybobs]

Can't believe you've asked that question, well I can actually as an exception, bang right in the middle of an pandemic with so much happening on the front & somehow you think it could perhaps be an appropriate time to launch an investigation/inquiry & potentially derail/jeopodise the efforts taking place now as we speak in a non literal sense, right now & onwards everybody who's working hard during this crisis need backing & as much support as possible & any distraction will undermine the very purpose.

Who is suggesting launching an investigation? It’s a good idea to read and understand a post before responding to it.

[Rileybobs]

Oh, right. Yes, of course, it's always the right time for people of all political persuasions to gob off pointlessly on internet message boards. Long may it be so.

I seem to have rattled a few people. I simply asked would the posters on here who are saying we shouldn’t be questioning the government until this is over honestly offer the same grace if it was a Labour government? Simple question, not loaded, just intended to make people question whether they are looking at this impartially or with bias towards their political persuasion.

No one has actually answered the question.

[TVC15]

Oh, right. Yes, of course, it's always the right time for people of all political persuasions to gob off pointlessly on internet message boards. Long may it be so.

How very dare you !

[thatdberight]

I seem to have rattled a few people. I simply asked would the posters on here who are saying we shouldn’t be questioning the government until this is over honestly offer the same grace if it was a Labour government? Simple question, not loaded, just intended to make people question whether they are looking at this impartially or with bias towards their political persuasion.

No one has actually answered the question.

Taio did. And I thought it was clear in my answer. Yes. It is a matter of common sense that the overall questions cannot be answered until we have an overall picture.

[Jakubclaret]

Who is suggesting launching an investigation? It’s a good idea to read and understand a post before responding to it.

I know what you are aiming to do & to be fair you'll probably succeed in trying to provoke a political debate on this thread, where it suddenly becomes open season for everybody to have a pop at each other regarding the governments handling of the coronavirus outbreak, other threads have emerged & actively encouraged such discussions to take place, a newspaper editorial 1 & the government response 1.

[Rileybobs]

Taio did. And I thought it was clear in my answer. Yes. It is a matter of common sense that the overall questions cannot be answered until we have an overall picture.

I don’t think Taio has ever said that people shouldn’t be questioning the government.

[TVC15]

I seem to have rattled a few people. I simply asked would the posters on here who are saying we shouldn’t be questioning the government until this is over honestly offer the same grace if it was a Labour government? Simple question, not loaded, just intended to make people question whether they are looking at this impartially or with bias towards their political persuasion.

No one has actually answered the question.

People of any political persuasion are just as entitled to question the government right now as those who repeatedly post opinion polls highlighting how popular they think the government are or how well they think the government are doing.
Those who say it’s too soon to question the government are entitled to their opinion too - thought by definition they presumably would agree it’s too soon to say they have done a good job.

I think everybody agrees that an enquiry now would be daft and a waste of important resources but I’m not sure anyone on here is calling for that.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Yes, we should probably wait 4 years and not ask questions like "if we took the right actions at the right time (as the government keep saying we did) why are we on course for the highest death toll in Europe?"

With respect that’s the naive approach I was referring to (though it is the media I am more concerned about, who seem fixated by the mortality graph).

Labour do of course as the main opposition need to scrutinise decisions very careful as a way of ensuring the best decisions in the future. I also think the Govt have been poorly advised with young inexperienced ministers like Sharma doing poor press conferences instead of being honest.

But prejudging if the government bas failed, which much of the media is doing, is not the way to go. There is no consideration of the UK having Europe’s most packed city, also no consideration of the UK’s ethnic make up (it appears BME may be more likely to become seriously ill), no consideration of the longer term economic consequences, no consideration of the errors if there are any being from the scientists in public health rather than the government who follow their lead.

The government may indeed have struggled to deal with this crisis, but there is no firm evidence that is the case. They need to be given space to lead.

[Rileybobs]

I know what you are aiming to do & to be fair you'll probably succeed in trying to provoke a political debate on this thread, where it suddenly becomes open season for everybody to have a pop at each other regarding the governments handling of the coronavirus outbreak, other threads have emerged & actively encouraged such discussions to take place, a newspaper editorial 1 & the government response 1.

Have a day off. All I’m trying to do is ask people on every side to try and look at this impartially. It seems like to a lot of the Tory voters, the government can do no wrong, and to a lot of the left wingers they can do no right.

If you want to totally misinterpret what I’ve posted, which is written in clear English, then that’s up to you. As ever you seem to follow me around this message board and respond to all of my posts which you obviously don’t read or understand (see your previous post) with a load of pointless waffle.

[evensteadiereddie]

They should be accountable for the failures as well as the successes.
Any future public inquiry's recommendations will be interesting.

[Jakubclaret]

Have a day off. All I’m trying to do is ask people on every side to try and look at this impartially. It seems like to a lot of the Tory voters, the government can do no wrong, and to a lot of the left wingers they can do no right.

If you want to totally misinterpret what I’ve posted, which is written in clear English, then that’s up to you. As ever you seem to follow me around this message board and respond to all of my posts which you obviously don’t read or understand (see your previous post) with a load of pointless waffle.

Yes the point being Aggi created a thread especially titled the government & the responses for such matters to be discussed, I think I'll discuss Nissan Micra engine problems on the ingrowing toenail thread & give the thread titled Nissan Micra engine problems a wide berth, it just stops some people engaging with potentially vital Covid-19 news.

[Rileybobs]

Yes the point being Aggi created a thread especially titled the government & the responses for such matters to be discussed, I think I'll discuss Nissan Micra engine problems on the ingrowing toenail thread & give the thread titled Nissan Micra engine problems a wide berth, it just stops some people engaging with potentially vital Covid-19 news.

Did he? I can’t see it. In any case I have been reading this thread and the conversation moved onto the governments response, allowing Cheltenham festival to go ahead etc. Other posters made this deviation from the ‘vital Covid-19 news’ and I added to the discussion.

As ever, you show yourself totally incapable of discussion with your Nissan Micra comparison. Do you really not think that the governments actions in relation to COVID-19 belong on a thread about COVID-19? If you come onto a football message board to find vital news about this pandemic then you’re very dim.

[CombatClaret]

Be waiting a while for the result of any inquiry from this lot.

And as I said already then prepare for 5 years of questions to be answered by
"I feel it in appropriate to respond these questions while an inquiry is ongoing..."

Then bury inquiry chaired by tennis partner, release over several parts on days with other big news.

[NottsClaret]

I predict another 3 weeks of total lock down then a very gradual and quite complicated plan to return to some new kind of 'normality' (oxymoron?).

The elderly and those at high risk will continue with their 12 week lock down plan.

Sounds about right to me, think this is the most likely course.

[thatdberight]

... also no consideration of the UK’s ethnic make up (it appears BME may be more likely to become seriously ill)..

Agree with your balanced post - finding that balance between "being given space to lead" and "can do what they think best without scrutiny and until it's too late to change course" is the trick.

However, not sure about this. London's the UK epicentre. London is 44% "ethnic minorities". The stats so far don't look out of shape by ethnicity given that.

[Jakubclaret]

Did he? I can’t see it. In any case I have been reading this thread and the conversation moved onto the governments response, allowing Cheltenham festival to go ahead etc. Other posters made this deviation from the ‘vital Covid-19 news’ and I added to the discussion.

As ever, you show yourself totally incapable of discussion with your Nissan Micra comparison. Do you really not think that the governments actions in relation to COVID-19 belong on a thread about COVID-19? If you come onto a football message board to find vital news about this pandemic then you’re very dim.

I fail to see what's dim about learning snippets of information from a varied pool of people regarding coronavirus news, some people have been relaying information about their family members, wife's, sisters & friends experiences working in hospitals & carehomes ect, it's vital news on a local level or even further afield it's useful, 1 of the posters even makes the face shields & distributes them, some stuff you cannot learn from mainstream media alone but by all means you limit yourself to a narrowed vision of learning.

[thatdberight]

They should be accountable for the failures as well as the successes.
Any future public inquiry's recommendations will be interesting.

Let's hope it's wide-ranging. Yes, the government of the day (and its predecessors) should be accountable for decisions. So should a number of other bodies. We should also look at whether we're spending enough on healthcare (obviously that's to a large extent covered under the first category) but also whether our single provider system means we risk everyone getting it fundamentally wrong. That won't be so popular as "Let's throw eggs at the PM" but might (for all I know) be equally important. Let's also look at whether our education system is geared enough towards sciences to both produce scientists and an understanding of sciences in everyone or whether it's a part of the problem. Let's look at whether poorer living conditions in London contributed and what that means. Let's look at how much of that is due to government policy, wealth inequality, failure to stop population growth and all the other factors.

Let's not dilute the first question of the immediate governance of the country and decisions taken but let's not pretend this is just about the bedlam of whether the EU procurement exercise email was in a spam filter or missed or ignored or deliberately disregarded.

[Rileybobs]

I fail to see what's dim about learning snippets of information from a varied pool of people regarding coronavirus news, some people have been relaying information about their family members, wife's, sisters & friends experiences working in hospitals & carehomes ect, it's vital news on a local level or even further afield it's useful, 1 of the posters even makes the face shields & distributes them, some stuff you cannot learn from mainstream media alone but by all means you limit yourself to a narrowed vision of learning.

Bore off. Please stop stalking me unless you are actually willing to have a sensible discussion about the point at hand.

[fatboy47]

Just checked back onto this thread after a few days lay off.

Nope ...still 90% infantile squealing and bickering.

Pity.

[thatdberight]

Something like 710 deaths reported today in the UK?

I'll not comment further for fear of upsetting the "up is down, down is up, believe nothing, believe everything, up is up, down is down, treat data with caution, throw data around carelessly" adherents.

[Lowbankclaret]

Sounds about right to me, think this is the most likely course.

Increased Lockdown coming next week I suggest. At least another 5-6 weeks of lock down.

UK hit 10,000 deaths today, when lots of deaths cannot be recorded.

Wednesday / Thursday it’s going to be 13-14,000.

[Lord Rothbury]

Germany and South Korea are both more dense than the UK. Earlier lockdown and proper testing would have done a huge amount to render density/travel almost irrelevant.

Instead we had Cheltenham, huge gigs still going ahead and our airports are still open with no testing for passengers.

Imagine dying because you went to a Stereophonics gig. Imagine dying because someone you know went to a Stereophonics gig.

The UK has a far greater population density than Germany if you take England as a stand-alone the difference is vast.

[Vino blanco]

I live in Spain and we are now in our 4th week of total lockdown, none of this wandering through the parks with your mates malarkey. I keep in touch with my Spanish friends and watch the Spanish TV news however and guess what, they are complaining that the lockdown should have started earlier, that there is not enough protective equipment for their NHS staff, that there is not enough testing, that the government were slow in making masks available to the general public. Does it sound familiar?
So what I've decided to do to get a more balance view of the situation is to go onto the Malaga CF message board: unfortunately they are all bickering and talking bullocks on there.

[jrgbfc]

Not sure we need a stricter lockdown tbh? The general consensus is that it seems to be working. Hopefully in another week or 2 we'll reach the peak and things start to improve a bit.

[NottsClaret]

Increased Lockdown coming next week I suggest. At least another 5-6 weeks of lock down.

UK hit 10,000 deaths today, when lots of deaths cannot be recorded.

Wednesday / Thursday it’s going to be 13-14,000.

Why would they go for 5-6 weeks? There’s no chance they’ll suggest that. Three weeks absolute maximum which of course can be reviewed. More likely two.

Several European nations lifting lockdown measures next week.

[ksrclaret]

Increased Lockdown coming next week I suggest. At least another 5-6 weeks of lock down.

UK hit 10,000 deaths today, when lots of deaths cannot be recorded.

Wednesday / Thursday it’s going to be 13-14,000.

Just stop. You simply don't know what will happen. Just wait and see.

[Rileybobs]

What will the stricter lockdown measures be? I can't really see what is wrong with the current measures. Obviously the virus will spread marginally more with people allowed outside to exercise, but this is a worthwhile price to pay to ensure that as many people as possible remain physically and mentally healthy.

Another issue with stricter lockdown measures is food shopping. We have shown that we haven't got the infrastructure in place to provide enough food deliveries to people so people still need to go to the supermarket. In fact we've gone to the supermarket more in the last 3/4 weeks than we probably did in the first 3/4 months of the year.

I was chatting to a mate who lives in Dubai yesterday and they are totally restricted to their homes. In order to leave the house they have to apply for a permit. He says it hasn't been a problem as their service industry is so good there is no problem getting shopping delivered.

[taio]

What will the stricter lockdown measures be? I can't really see what is wrong with the current measures. Obviously the virus will spread marginally more with people allowed outside to exercise, but this is a worthwhile price to pay to ensure that as many people as possible remain physically and mentally healthy.

Another issue with stricter lockdown measures is food shopping. We have shown that we haven't got the infrastructure in place to provide enough food deliveries to people so people still need to go to the supermarket. In fact we've gone to the supermarket more in the last 3/4 weeks than we probably did in the first 3/4 months of the year.

I was chatting to a mate who lives in Dubai yesterday and they are totally restricted to their homes. In order to leave the house they have to apply for a permit. He says it hasn't been a problem as their service industry is so good there is no problem getting shopping delivered.

If arrangements need tightening, adults of the same household undertaking essential exercise outdoors should have to do so alone, as opposed to full lockdown..

[NottsClaret]

Still don’t get the clamour for stricter measures. We aren’t attempting to eradicate the virus, just lower hospital admissions, flatten the curve etc.

That’s exactly what’s happening, and pretty much everyone is just about managing with it. So just do it for a couple more weeks and watch and learn from the European countries ahead of us on the timeline.

[Rileybobs]

If arrangements need tightening, adults of the same household undertaking essential exercise outdoors should have to do so alone, as opposed to full lockdown..

Yes I suppose that would be the next step. Although, if you think about it, 2 adults exercising separately would mean that collectively they would come into contact with twice as many people.

[Spijed]

UK hit 10,000 deaths today, when lots of deaths cannot be recorded.

Whilst that may be true normally, because of weekend admissions when there are fewer hospital staff at the weekends, less consultants etc. I think it may be a bit different with the current situation.

[thatdberight]

In fact we've gone to the supermarket more in the last 3/4 weeks than we probably did in the first 3/4 months of the year.

I don't get this. Why would you need to do that? We've restricted ourselves to a big shop, do without quite do much fresh stuff by the end of the 10 day period but not just living on junk. I certainly don't see how it can be more often.

Your mates in Dubai would appear to be the lucky ones for some reason.
https://www.thenational.ae/lifestyle/fo ... s-1.993045

That said, Dubai (about 1/70th the size of the UK but with population density 4 times as high) doesn't seem an easy comparison to make just on the grounds of quality of service industries.

[thatdberight]

Whilst that may be true normally, because of weekend admissions when there are fewer hospital staff at the weekends, less consultants etc. I think it may be a bit different with the current situation.

I think he's still peddling the lie that care home deaths are not counted and that this is somehow deliberately manipulative.

They are. It's easily findable on ONS data. However, they are on a lag. The difference in the numbers is not immaterial. The true number of people dying while infected with this virus is openly known to be larger than the daily numbers given which are collated from hospitals because that's your best bet at getting a clear picture of what's happening day by day in terms of trend.

[thatdberight]

If arrangements need tightening, adults of the same household undertaking essential exercise outdoors should have to do so alone, as opposed to full lockdown..

What good would that do?

[taio]

Yes I suppose that would be the next step. Although, if you think about it, 2 adults exercising separately would mean that collectively they would come into contact with twice as many people.

The vast majority are keeping a distance. It would make those who are not part of the same household and therefore flouting the rules more visible to the police. There would be much less ambiguity a part from exceptional circumstances.