Covid-19

[thatdberight]

No, read it again. I have deduced using logic that they should mean everybody based on the fact that some people are carriers and can be sick, but show no symptoms - ergo, should be wearing a mask. Logic states that in order to include that group, then all people should wear a mask.

I'm sure that the WHO can see that possible extension of the categories. So I'm sure they didn't extend it for a reason. They mustn't see much value in it.

[Zlatan]

I'm sure that the WHO can see that possible extension of the categories. So I'm sure they didn't extend it for a reason. They mustn't see much value in it.

The question was raised about those countries that have fewer deaths and the correlation with wearing masks, I responded and gave my opinion. I’m sure there are those at the WHO have many views on this which vary from the official line. I understand the official line and I also reasoned as to why they may state that. It’s my opinion.

[thatdberight]

The question was raised about those countries that have fewer deaths and the correlation with wearing masks, I responded and gave my opinion. I’m sure there are those at the WHO have many views on this which vary from the official line. I understand the official line and I also reasoned as to why they may state that. It’s my opinion.

OK. As you say, opinions vary. Bringing this in with no significant justification would be a curtailment of our liberties which, if accepted, would show just how docile we are.

[Spijed]

UK denies 'political decision' to snub EU over medical kit

James Landale

Diplomatic correspondent

The row over why the UK failed to sign up to the EU's medical equipment procurement scheme has been resurrected today with an appearance before MPs by the head of the Foreign Office, Sir Simon McDonald.

Last month the government was criticised for not taking part in the scheme to bulk buy medical equipment that could be used to tackle the coronavirus.

Ministers -including Michael Gove- were forced to deny that anti-EU sentiment had played a part in the decision. There were also claims of missing emails and a communication confusion.

But today Sir Simon McDonald,appearing via video link, told MPs it was a deliberate decision by ministers to turn down the invitation from Brussels. "It was a political decision, our mission briefed minsters on what was available, and what was on offer, and the decision is known," he said.

This prompted a robust response from the Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, at the Downing Street news conference. He said that he had spoken to the Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab, and as far as he knew there had been no political decision not to participate.

He revealed that he had now accepted an invitation from the EU to join that particular scheme which he said had not yet delivered a single item of medical equipment.

And Whitehall sources have since suggested Sir Simon "misspoke" and that a clarification of his remarks will be forthcoming.

[Devils_Advocate]

Talk about being 'In The Thick of It'

[CombatClaret]

Talk about being 'In The Thick of It'

Dom's been on the phone it seems. You know what they say.

It's difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

[CombatClaret]

Nurse shortage causes Nightingale hospital to turn away patients

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... y-patients

Dozens of patients with Covid-19 have been turned away from the NHS Nightingale hospital in London because it has too few nurses to treat them.

The disclosure comes amid a growing belief among hospital management in the capital that the Nightingale, built to great acclaim over just nine days, was becoming a “white elephant”.

[Quickenthetempo]

The one question that has been bugging me is

Why haven't full families or full households died from the Virus? If it's as catchy as made out you would think everyone in a house where one person catches, they all would?

Or has there been cases that I have missed?

[tiger76]

The one question that has been bugging me is

Why haven't full families or full households died from the Virus? If it's as catchy as made out you would think everyone in a house where one person catches, they all would?

Or has there been cases that I have missed?

I'm not sure about whole households,but i do recall cases of siblings and flatmates being infected,it could well be the case that members of the same household have caught the virus,but they've experienced mild symptoms,and that's hardly going to make the headlines.

[Rileybobs]

The one question that has been bugging me is

Why haven't full families or full households died from the Virus? If it's as catchy as made out you would think everyone in a house where one person catches, they all would?

Or has there been cases that I have missed?

Because the likelihood of dying due to contracting the virus is so relatively low.

[dsr]

The one question that has been bugging me is

Why haven't full families or full households died from the Virus? If it's as catchy as made out you would think everyone in a house where one person catches, they all would?

Or has there been cases that I have missed?

The main reason full families haven't died of the virus is that it is very rarely fatal in the young. Old folks' homes have high death rates simply because the people are old and vulnerable.

The only actual figure I have is that a few days back, it was announced that the number of deaths of people under 45 years old in Scotland = 8. 5 million Scots, and only 8 children + young + early middle age people have died. It's not a lethal disease to the young.

[Paul Waine]

Nurse shortage causes Nightingale hospital to turn away patients

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... y-patients

Dozens of patients with Covid-19 have been turned away from the NHS Nightingale hospital in London because it has too few nurses to treat them.

The disclosure comes amid a growing belief among hospital management in the capital that the Nightingale, built to great acclaim over just nine days, was becoming a “white elephant”.

A not atypical article from the media - let's put on a headline that makes people read what we've written - then we'll argue that "the sky is falling..." and quote someone who says "the sky is falling..." - but, then we will say a bit about the other side or the argument and let everyone conclude that we've written a sensational headline, but the facts don't support our headline. Not to worry, some will want to believe it.

My view: shock, horror, some in the NHS are jealous that a new hospital has been set up, so we are going to find a reason to bad mouth it.

[Paul Waine]

The main reason full families haven't died of the virus is that it is very rarely fatal in the young. Old folks' homes have high death rates simply because the people are old and vulnerable.

The only actual figure I have is that a few days back, it was announced that the number of deaths of people under 45 years old in Scotland = 8. 5 million Scots, and only 8 children + young + early middle age people have died. It's not a lethal disease to the young.

I recall that one of the nurses who has died of covid-19 did so a few days after her father had also died of covid-19.

On a more statistical basis, I think it's been reported that 90% of all who have died have underlying health issues. It is possible that these health issues are rarely shared by husband and wife (or any other 2 partners in a relationship) - as they don't share the same genetic inheritance.

[Paul Waine]

I'm not sure about whole households,but i do recall cases of siblings and flatmates being infected,it could well be the case that members of the same household have caught the virus,but they've experienced mild symptoms,and that's hardly going to make the headlines.

And, we may recall that both the PM and his partner/fiancée have got covid-19, one more seriously than their younger partner.

[thatdberight]

The one question that has been bugging me is

Why haven't full families or full households died from the Virus? If it's as catchy as made out you would think everyone in a house where one person catches, they all would?

Or has there been cases that I have missed?

Because hardly anybody except old, sick people are dying.

I must admit I shook my head and muttered, "Snowflakes" when it was suggested that an older generation would gladly sacrifice a younger one's future for benefits in their own much shorter lifespan when Brexit was discussed.

I admit that I may well have been badly wrong to dismiss that self-interest taking precedence.

[Quickenthetempo]

Thanks for the replies.

[tiger76]

The main reason full families haven't died of the virus is that it is very rarely fatal in the young. Old folks' homes have high death rates simply because the people are old and vulnerable.

The only actual figure I have is that a few days back, it was announced that the number of deaths of people under 45 years old in Scotland = 8. 5 million Scots, and only 8 children + young + early middle age people have died. It's not a lethal disease to the young.

In general that's true,hence why when there is a case of a young person dying it makes the front pages,thankfully these instances have been seldom,as far as i'm aware nobody under 15 has died in Scotland,your correct that care homes are a febrile environment for a variety of reasons,and there has been further reports up here of multiple deaths in care homes again,the updated figures will be released tomorrow.

[dsr]

Because hardly anybody except old, sick people are dying.

I must admit I shook my head and muttered, "Snowflakes" when it was suggested that an older generation would gladly sacrifice a younger one's future for benefits in their own much shorter lifespan when Brexit was discussed.

I admit that I may well have been badly wrong to dismiss that self-interest taking precedence.

No, I reckon you're badly wrong now. I haven't seen or heard anything to suggest that old people are launching campaigns for lockdown. Can you find me the links? The campaigns for lockdown are from people who are opposed to any and all coronavirus deaths.

On the other hand, I have seen letters from people saying they would take their chance and risk sacrificing what remains of their lives for the sake of their children and grandchildren's prosperity. It was often repeated by a certain class fanatically pro-EU people that old people, as a class, do not love their children and grandchildren and do not care for their future. It was and is a dreadful misconception.

[thatdberight]

No, I reckon you're badly wrong now. I haven't seen or heard anything to suggest that old people are launching campaigns for lockdown. Can you find me the links? The campaigns for lockdown are from people who are opposed to any and all coronavirus deaths.

On the other hand, I have seen letters from people saying they would take their chance and risk sacrificing what remains of their lives for the sake of their children and grandchildren's prosperity. It was often repeated by a certain class fanatically pro-EU people that old people, as a class, do not love their children and grandchildren and do not care for their future. It was and is a dreadful misconception.

I'll reconsider. Perhaps I confuse the effects of the action with those who are taking it.

[RingoMcCartney]

I'll reconsider. Perhaps I confuse the effects of the action with those who are taking it.

To be fair , he didn't suggest you may want to change your mind. He asked you for links.

[thatdberight]

To be fair , he didn't suggest you may want to change your mind. He asked you for links.

You'd prefer I didn't change my mind when faced with a good point and I feel I may have been hasty and made a point that doesn't stand up?

There's being wrong and then there's the sort of stupidity you indulge in regularly where you just keep fighting your corner because.... well just... because...

[RingoMcCartney]

You'd prefer I didn't change my mind when faced with a good point and I feel I may have been hasty and made a point that doesn't stand up?

There's being wrong and then there's the sort of stupidity you indulge in regularly.

Links?

[CombatClaret]

A not atypical article from the media - let's put on a headline that makes people read what we've written - then we'll argue that "the sky is falling..." and quote someone who says "the sky is falling..." - but, then we will say a bit about the other side or the argument and let everyone conclude that we've written a sensational headline, but the facts don't support our headline.

I can find nothing untrue in the headline, facts support exactly what is says.

Differing opinions are given about the role and resources of the hospital, at least they are printed for the reader to decide unlike some other editorial policies.

One for Wrongo - "One senior intensive care doctor said: “The Nightingale is clearly not a hospital..."

[RingoMcCartney]

I can find nothing untrue in the headline, facts support exactly what is says.

Differing opinions are given about the role and resources of the hospital, at least they are printed for the reader to decide unlike some other editorial policies.

One for Wrongo - "One senior intensive care doctor said: “The Nightingale is clearly not a hospital..."

Result from today's "How do we refer to the Nightingales? , Sponsored by Combat Claret, Premier League"




One senior intensive care doctor 1. Rest of the country 0

[dsr]

The government is already getting a slating for not having enough beds. Now we can give them a slating for having too many?

I hope the Nightingale hospitals are white elephants. I hope they are a complete waste of money and not needed at all. But that doesn't necessarily mean it was wrong for the NHS to prepare them just in case.

[Paul Waine]

I can find nothing untrue in the headline, facts support exactly what is says.

Differing opinions are given about the role and resources of the hospital, at least they are printed for the reader to decide unlike some other editorial policies.

One for Wrongo - "One senior intensive care doctor said: “The Nightingale is clearly not a hospital..."

The headline is: Nurse shortage causes Nightingale hospital to turn away patients

Followed by: Exclusive: Covid-19 patient transfers to new London facility cancelled owing to lack of ICU nurses

Oh, and this may interest some, London already had a Nightingale Hospital - just not an NHS one. https://www.nightingalehospital.co.uk/

[dsr]

If push comes to shove, if all the regular hospitals are full to bursting, they will find staff for the Nightingale hospitals. They won't all be fully qualified. Some of them will be only semi-trained or trained in scarcely relevant fields and will have to be given on-the-job training in a single specific task that they can do well; or they may be restricted to little more than watching and shouting for help. ICU units may be understaffed. Hopefully none of that will happen; but if at some point the crisis balloons and they have more patients than they can properly care for, they will not insist on pre-emergency standards for some and no care at all for others; they will do the best they can for everyone. And "the best they can" will fall short of the ideal. If it gets to that stage.

[martin_p]

The government is already getting a slating for not having enough beds. Now we can give them a slating for having too many?

I hope the Nightingale hospitals are white elephants. I hope they are a complete waste of money and not needed at all. But that doesn't necessarily mean it was wrong for the NHS to prepare them just in case.

You understand that having a bed is only a very small part of the care process?

[dsr]

You understand that having a bed is only a very small part of the care process?

You understand that when we talk about hospital beds, we aren't literally referring to the furniture?

Even in happier times, operations get cancelled for lack of beds. It's not a "very small" part. It's a crucial part.

[RingoMcCartney]

https://fullfact.org/health/number-hosp ... s-falling/

Claim

The number of hospital beds fell by 25,000 in the last six years of the last Labour government.

Conclusion

Correct, the number of overnight beds in the English NHS actually fell by slightly more—about 26,000—between 2003/04 and 2009/10.

[RingoMcCartney]

The Noisy Left -

"there clearly aren't enough sick people to justify the Nightingale, erm, erm , well what ever you want to call them. Anyway, I blame the government!"

[Damo]

People being outraged that an emergency field hospital aren't being used, because hospitals are coping might seem a little weird to normal people, but if you head to twitter, you will find it's actually a thing.
Theres also a large group of people on there who are absolutely fuming that they are not being called out via the volunteer responder app, again because hospitals, pharmacies and logistical routes are coping.
And it's all the governments fault

[Taffy on the wing]

A not atypical article from the media - let's put on a headline that makes people read what we've written - then we'll argue that "the sky is falling..." and quote someone who says "the sky is falling..." - but, then we will say a bit about the other side or the argument and let everyone conclude that we've written a sensational headline, but the facts don't support our headline. Not to worry, some will want to believe it.

My view: shock, horror, some in the NHS are jealous that a new hospital has been set up, so we are going to find a reason to bad mouth it.

Mmm .....strange post! from one who is usually more reasonable!..........I don't think they have time to feel anything, never mind jealousy! ....They are so busy..... trying to save lives, at the risk of their own, and the ones they love... Thanks to Boris and co. they are poorly equipped and trained to do so!

[Taffy on the wing]

The Noisy Left -

"there clearly aren't enough sick people to justify the Nightingale, erm, erm , well what ever you want to call them. Anyway, I blame the government!"

Ridiculous post!..........even for you.

[Lowbankclaret]

The one question that has been bugging me is

Why haven't full families or full households died from the Virus? If it's as catchy as made out you would think everyone in a house where one person catches, they all would?

Or has there been cases that I have missed?

I think there have been two or three in the news where two out of three and maybe one where all three died. But if I remember the youngest of the 3 was like 30 or 40.

[Burnley1989]

People being outraged that an emergency field hospital aren't being used, because hospitals are coping might seem a little weird to normal people, but if you head to twitter, you will find it's actually a thing.
Theres also a large group of people on there who are absolutely fuming that they are not being called out via the volunteer responder app, again because hospitals, pharmacies and logistical routes are coping.
And it's all the governments fault

539 hours on call now with 1 call out, useless government wasting my precious time.

[Lowbankclaret]

The government is already getting a slating for not having enough beds. Now we can give them a slating for having too many?

I hope the Nightingale hospitals are white elephants. I hope they are a complete waste of money and not needed at all. But that doesn't necessarily mean it was wrong for the NHS to prepare them just in case.

The evidence emerging from around the world is that lockdown does work.
I watched many of Gov Cuomo’s presentations in New York. The modelling predicted 140,000 beds needed and he busted his balls to get to that number . Actual number ended up way short of that. A good thing, but the hospitals were still very busy After they increased beds by 50%.
Similar has happened here. The number of beds required are below the modelling, I think due to the lockdown.

But I agree we needed to be prepared but I do think we could scale back the ones being built now.

Sad part about yesterday was the North west had the highest death rate in the UK at 172.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ridiculous post!..........even for you.

Seems to me I just summed up what other posters are also saying. Which is, those in a permanent state of being unable to give credit where credits due and try and find fault where non exists, just cant help themselves.

Raw nerve touched , me thinks.

[martin_p]

You understand that when we talk about hospital beds, we aren't literally referring to the furniture?

Even in happier times, operations get cancelled for lack of beds. It's not a "very small" part. It's a crucial part.

Absolutely, and you’ve correctly identified that the bed, etc is just a ‘part’, but without the people to do the caring that’s all it is!

[Paul Waine]

Mmm .....strange post! from one who is usually more reasonable!..........I don't think they have time to feel anything, never mind jealousy! ....They are so busy..... trying to save lives, at the risk of their own, and the ones they love... Thanks to Boris and co. they are poorly equipped and trained to do so!

Hi Taffy, jealousy and professional rivalries have been documented on other occasions amongst senior consultants in the NHS. I recommend you take a look at report into the events, over 2 or 3 years, at St George's Hospital Trust Cardiology unit in London, reputedly one of the country's leading cardiology units. The report concluded, amongst other matters, that death rates from cardiology treatments were about 3 times higher than they were expected to be (3% rather than 1%). The more difficulty procedures were moved away from St George's as a result, new team leader appointed, and other measures to remedy. (I had emergency angioplasty at St George's during this period - only learnt 2 years later that some things "weren't right" - but every time I went for an appointment I saw a different consultant, with no explanation why the previous guy wasn't there).

Jealousy is a normal human response. I don't think it's a case of "this can never happen" with senior medical staff. In times of stress, maybe this should be an expected response more often - and steps taken to manage it. But, don't let that stop our media writing up their stories.

EDIT: This is Guardian's headline on St George's:

Heart surgeons accused of 'toxic feud that put patients at risk'

St George’s hospital heart unit, which has above average death rate, subject to damning review

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ts-at-risk

[Paul Waine]

Absolutely, and you’ve correctly identified that the bed, etc is just a ‘part’, but without the people to do the caring that’s all it is!

and, would you be complaining if there was no extra beds?

[AndrewJB]

Government all over the place, and seems more organised about looking after PR than it does tackling the virus. After the government released various different reasons why we weren’t in the EU PPE procurement group while were desperately short of PPE, ranging from “we can’t join that because we’re not in the EU” to “we weren’t invited,” and then “we missed the deadline in an administrative error” and then an advisor states the obvious: “it was a political decision” and is forced to row back on that statement with a cringey letter to the cabinet saying he’d made a mistake (the mistake of being honest?). Our Keystone Cops Cabinet farce would be funny if it weren’t killing people before their time. No transparency. The Sunday Times article was hardly a surprise. Quite a few people have asked; “exactly what was the government doing to prepare in the lead up to this?” And the answer very much appears to be “Little or nothing”

It’s no surprise the government tells bare faced lies, because Johnson does that all the time. It’s no surprise that the government doesn’t seem to be putting in a shift, because we’ve got a part time prime minister: “weekends? Bah! I’m not working weekends!” And it’s no surprise that the government puts its image before effectiveness, because becoming PM was always about Johnson and not what he could do for the country.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Government all over the place, and seems more organised about looking after PR than it does tackling the virus. After the government released various different reasons why we weren’t in the EU PPE procurement group while were desperately short of PPE, ranging from “we can’t join that because we’re not in the EU” to “we were t invited,” and then “we missed the deadline in an administrative error” and then Anastasia is or states the obvious: “it was a political decision” and forced to row back on that statement with a cringey letter to the cabinet saying he’d made a mistake. Our Keystone Cops Cabinet farce would be funny if it weren’t killing people before their time. No transparency. The Sunday Times article was hardly a surprise. Quite a few people have asked; “exactly what was the government doing to prepare in the lead up to this?” And the answer very much appears to be “Little or nothing”

Is your whole time spent hating the government or do you have things you enjoy in life ?

[dsr]

Government all over the place, and seems more organised about looking after PR than it does tackling the virus. After the government released various different reasons why we weren’t in the EU PPE procurement group while were desperately short of PPE, ranging from “we can’t join that because we’re not in the EU” to “we were t invited,” and then “we missed the deadline in an administrative error” and then Anastasia is or states the obvious: “it was a political decision” and forced to row back on that statement with a cringey letter to the cabinet saying he’d made a mistake. Our Keystone Cops Cabinet farce would be funny if it weren’t killing people before their time. No transparency. The Sunday Times article was hardly a surprise. Quite a few people have asked; “exactly what was the government doing to prepare in the lead up to this?” And the answer very much appears to be “Little or nothing”

Not quite "little or nothing". For example, they appointed a body of 5,500 people called "Public Health England" whose job it was to look at future threats and to ensure that the NHS is prepared for this sort of thing. Obviously they appointed the wrong people or gave it the wrong remit or perhaps overrode their decisions; I don't know. But a body of 5,500 people set up (in 2013) for this specific scenario is not "little or nothing".

[RingoMcCartney]

Is your whole time spent hating the government or do you have things you enjoy in life ?

"Right wing media " , "Daily Mail " , "Murdoch" "Falling for lies" incoming!


ETA - 5...4....3....2....

[martin_p]

and, would you be complaining if there was no extra beds?

Beds don’t look after people, other people do. Beds are easy, as has been proved, but without someone to ‘man’ those beds then they are useless.

[RingoMcCartney]

The Sunday Times article was hardly an exercise in truth.

S'More like it!

[AndrewJB]

Is your whole time spent hating the government or do you have things you enjoy in life ?

“Can’t think of anything to disagree with in your post, so I’ll attack you personally instead.”

[martin_p]

Not quite "little or nothing". For example, they appointed a body of 5,500 people called "Public Health England" whose job it was to look at future threats and to ensure that the NHS is prepared for this sort of thing. Obviously they appointed the wrong people or gave it the wrong remit or perhaps overrode their decisions; I don't know. But a body of 5,500 people set up (in 2013) for this specific scenario is not "little or nothing".

And PHE did their job and the government failed to act on its findings. But again, setting up a body of people is only half the job, you have to fund the implementation of their findings. It’s a bit like supplying extra beds without the right people to staff them.

[claretonthecoast1882]

“Can’t think of anything to disagree with in your post, so I’ll attack you personally instead.”

Asking if you have things in life you enjoy is an attack ?