Covid-19

[taio]

It’s undeniable from the governments own figures. They promised to test 100k people per day by the end of the month and their own figures show they tested circa 73k.

This is one of the problems with this (and the previous) Tory governments, an obsession with putting out arbitrary targets to placate the public. It was madness to target 100k, or any target, by the end of the month. Has they said we’ll be in a position to seriously ramp up test numbers by the end of the month instead of plucking a headline grabbing figure out of thin air then no one would have batted an eyelid at the progress that has been made. As it is they have had to lie, or if I’m being charitable bend the truth, to make it look like they’ve hit the target and left themselves open to criticism. They did the same with net migration, you’d have thought they’d learnt their lesson.

We don't know how many people undertook the test from the from the testing kits delivered.

Don't see the problem in setting a goal to aspire to in order to bring organisations together and get some great energy behind it which is what has happened here.

Setting goals happens in all aspects of life.

[martin_p]

We don't know how many people undertook the test from the from the testing kits delivered.

Don't see the problem in setting a goal to aspire to in order to bring organisations together and get some great energy behind it which is what has happened here.

Setting goals happens in all aspects of life.

We know that 73,191 were tested today. Those that have had kits delivered today will be tested on subsequent days when they return it and appear on the figures for those days.

If you’re going to set a target then own up when you don’t meet it, don’t try and move the goalposts.

[Devils_Advocate]

Ive a similar view to Martin. I've already commented before this kicked off that I think they've really upped their game on testing and I give them credit for that and dont care about whether they hit or did not hit the target.

I know needless point scoring is a problem on both sides but had the govt held their hands and said look we challenged ourselves with a tough target and although we've not hit it the progress we've made over the last week or so is really positive it would have been hard not to agree

Yes those who just wanted to criticise the govt would have done but they would stood out as looking petty and tribal and I think the concensus would have been positive. Once the govt spin and lie then they give all the moral ground to those against the govt and its actually those trying to defend the Govts stats who look the more tribal ones.

Despite the reporting I am still pleased with the progress the Govt has made on testing and I am confident they will continue to get better and better but please stop the lies and misrepresentation and please lets defend the govt when they do well, dont accept needless point scoring criticism but at the same time condemn them and hold them to account when they are dishonest or at best misrepresent stuff

[martin_p]

Deleted - duplicate post

[NewClaret]

It’s undeniable from the governments own figures. They promised to test 100k people per day by the end of the month and their own figures show they tested circa 73k.

This is one of the problems with this (and the previous) Tory governments, an obsession with putting out arbitrary targets to placate the public. It was madness to target 100k, or any target, by the end of the month. Had they said we’ll be in a position to seriously ramp up test numbers by the end of the month instead of plucking a headline grabbing figure out of thin air then no one would have batted an eyelid at the progress that has been made. As it is they have had to lie, or if I’m being charitable bend the truth, to make it look like they’ve hit the target and left themselves open to criticism. They did the same with net migration, you’d have thought they’d learnt their lesson.

Did they? Can you link me to that?

I thought that they said their goal was to increase testing capacity to 100k tests per day.

Anyway, doesn’t matter. I’m quite happy with the governments efforts to increase test capacity. You’re not. Suppose that’s the beginning and end of it all. Some people think they are doing a good job, others don’t, and any efforts to convince the opposing side on here that they are wrong is futile.

[NewClaret]

We know that 73,191 were tested today. Those that have had kits delivered today will be tested on subsequent days when they return it and appear on the figures for those days.

If you’re going to set a target then own up when you don’t meet it, don’t try and move the goalposts.

Own up? Didn’t the government openly publish these figures?

[martin_p]

Own up? Didn’t the government openly publish these figures?

Yes, and then claimed they hit their 100k target.

[Devils_Advocate]

Did they? Can you link me to that?

I thought that they said their goal was to increase testing capacity to 100k tests per day.

This was what they said at the start of April and the message was definitely to test 100k people. Not trying to point score but posting because you asked

[martin_p]

Did they? Can you link me to that?

I thought that they said their goal was to increase testing capacity to 100k tests per day.

Anyway, doesn’t matter. I’m quite happy with the governments efforts to increase test capacity. You’re not. Suppose that’s the beginning and end of it all. Some people think they are doing a good job, others don’t, and any efforts to convince the opposing side on here that they are wrong is futile.

The PM’s tweet where he says we’ll test 100,000 people a day is on the previous page, posted by TallPaul.

Edit - and is now immediately above this post!

[NewClaret]

Yes, and then claimed they hit their 100k target.

Hardly a master cover up, is it?

Anyway, did they say people or tests when they originally set the goal? I’m not sure they were specific.

[taio]

This was what they said at the start of April and the message was definitely to test 100k people. Not trying to point score but posting because you asked

Not ideal because of the inconsistency. But the words out of Hancock's mouth are the most important thing: “I’m now setting the goal of 100,000 tests per day by the end of this month. That is the goal and I’m determined we’ll get there.”

[CrosspoolClarets]

Great work by Hancock and the DHSC. Credit where it is due.

Apart from one erroneous tweet from No. 10 while Boris was in hospital, it was clear it was tests, not people, that was to be 100,000. The original press releases were clear.

So one or two of the press may still be trying to find a criticism but that is semantics - it takes days to run a PCR test, it is entirely legitimate to send them out and use that date, because the person may or may not have tested themselves that day anyway, its highly unlikely someone will be ill, get a test, and sit on it for days. So some in the press are looking a bit silly pursuing this. They could have used the result day, but that would involve a completely different and pointless data collection.

Well done again. Now keep it up.

[NewClaret]

This was what they said at the start of April and the message was definitely to test 100k people. Not trying to point score but posting because you asked

Fair enough, was a genuine question. I didn’t pick that up.

Sort of true though, isn’t it. They have tested 100k people, just not processed the results today, presumably.

If the exercise was about procuring and creating the capacity to test 100k people per day, it’s job done. If it was about actually getting the results back to those individuals, not quite so.

Either way, was always described as an “ambitious target”. They either hit it or undershot it depending on your perspective of the goal, but they have undoubtedly massively increased the capacity so the plan is working, if a bit late.

[Devils_Advocate]

Not ideal because of the inconsistency. But the words out of Hancock's mouth are the most important thing: “I’m now setting the goal of 100,000 tests per day by the end of this month. That is the goal and I’m determined we’ll get there.”

I think they're at least equally important. I agree that somebody's word in more direct discussions is more important but in a briefing speech its a lot easier to not word a phrase as you meant than it is to put it in your official communications and leave it there unchanged.

Its splitting hairs and I've already stated my support for recent performance on testing but this govt has a habit of not saying or communication what they mean and then changing to suit later on so they need to get a lot tighter on this.

A clearer message or just a more honest admission and this discussion wouldnt be happening or if it was I think the dissenters would a lot less and would definitely look the ones out of step

[NewClaret]

Not ideal because of the inconsistency. But the words out of Hancock's mouth are the most important thing: “I’m now setting the goal of 100,000 tests per day by the end of this month. That is the goal and I’m determined we’ll get there.”

I thought that was the case.

[Devils_Advocate]

Fair enough, was a genuine question. I didn’t pick that up.

Sort of true though, isn’t it. They have tested 100k people, just not processed the results today, presumably.

If the exercise was about procuring and creating the capacity to test 100k people per day, it’s job done. If it was about actually getting the results back to those individuals, not quite so.

Either way, was always described as an “ambitious target”. They either hit it or undershot it depending on your perspective of the goal, but they have undoubtedly massively increased the capacity so the plan is working, if a bit late.

Yes I agree on the last bit and as someone not backwards in having a pop where I think its justified I've been positive about this.

At the same time I understand why people are having a go cos it feels like the govt are not being honest and transparent even when theyve done well

[NewClaret]

Great work by Hancock and the DHSC. Credit where it is due.

Apart from one erroneous tweet from No. 10 while Boris was in hospital, it was clear it was tests, not people, that was to be 100,000. The original press releases were clear.

So one or two of the press may still be trying to find a criticism but that is semantics - it takes days to run a PCR test, it is entirely legitimate to send them out and use that date, because the person may or may not have tested themselves that day anyway, its highly unlikely someone will be ill, get a test, and sit on it for days. So some in the press are looking a bit silly pursuing this. They could have used the result day, but that would involve a completely different and pointless data collection.

Well done again. Now keep it up.

Agreed.

[taio]

I think they're at least equally important. I agree that somebody's word in more direct discussions is more important but in a briefing speech its a lot easier to not word a phrase as you meant than it is to put it in your official communications and leave it there unchanged.

Its splitting hairs and I've already stated my support for recent performance on testing but this govt has a habit of not saying or communication what they mean and then changing to suit later on so they need to get a lot tighter on this.

A clearer message or just a more honest admission and this discussion wouldnt be happening or if it was I think the dissenters would a lot less and would definitely look the ones out of step

I'd rather judge against the accountable person i.e. the Secretary of State rather than someone updating the Downing St Twitter account in error.

[Devils_Advocate]

I'd rather judge against the accountable person i.e. the Secretary of State rather than someone updating the Downing St Twitter account in error.

Thats your choice but I think those who going off the official Downing St comms are just as entitled to choose to judge against that.

[taio]

Thats your choice but I think those who going off the official Downing St comms are just as entitled to choose to judge against that.

Yes they are. Can't think why some people have waited until today to refer to it though.

[TVC15]

And how much do golf clubs cost. How many people of inner city estates do you see on your average course?

You can get golf clubs for a third of the price of one years season ticket on the Turf and they will last you for ten years at least.
You can play a round of golf for £11 - which compares to between £30 and £40 to go on the Turf.
I see the same people on the golf course as I do on the match - it’s not the 1950s.
How would I know if they are from an inner city estate or not ? I don’t live in a city and I don’t judge people like that either. I just know it’s an extremely affordable sport which is played by many people across all classes of society.

[martin_p]

You can get golf clubs for a third of the price of one years season ticket on the Turf and they will last you for ten years at least.
You can play a round of golf for £11 - which compares to between £30 and £40 to go on the Turf.
I see the same people on the golf course as I do on the match - it’s not the 1950s.
How would I know if they are from an inner city estate or not ? I don’t live in a city and I don’t judge people like that either. I just know it’s an extremely affordable sport which is played by many people across all classes of society.

Perfect if you’re on benefits if you’ve just lost your job!

[taio]

Perfect if you’re on benefits if you’ve just lost your job!

From 'very much middle class' to somebody who has just lost their job and on benefits.

[Grumps]

You can get golf clubs for a third of the price of one years season ticket on the Turf and they will last you for ten years at least.
You can play a round of golf for £11 - which compares to between £30 and £40 to go on the Turf.
I see the same people on the golf course as I do on the match - it’s not the 1950s.
How would I know if they are from an inner city estate or not ? I don’t live in a city and I don’t judge people like that either. I just know it’s an extremely affordable sport which is played by many people across all classes of society.

Agreed, and surely the people playing golf would be the same people who played it before lockdown, so nobody would be missing out.

[Damo]

A government that doesn’t consistently lie is my minimum requirement.

No wonder you are so unbearable.
Funny, I would have assumed you had been alive more than 50 years, going off your posts

[Paul Waine]

I think they're at least equally important. I agree that somebody's word in more direct discussions is more important but in a briefing speech its a lot easier to not word a phrase as you meant than it is to put it in your official communications and leave it there unchanged.

Its splitting hairs and I've already stated my support for recent performance on testing but this govt has a habit of not saying or communication what they mean and then changing to suit later on so they need to get a lot tighter on this.

A clearer message or just a more honest admission and this discussion wouldnt be happening or if it was I think the dissenters would a lot less and would definitely look the ones out of step

Hi DA, if we all go back to early April the discussion was about "tests." There was no distinction between "test capacity and demand for tests," similarly, "tests performed v people tested" - we all thought everyone would turn up and use the max capacity, and that one person would only require one test. So, Matt Hancock said "tests performed" and Downing St thought they were saying the same thing when they said "people tested." We all know that no one, not the media and not the "experts" on this board queried the difference between "tests performed" and "people tested" and no one asked "do you mean capacity" of "do you mean demand for tests?"

I don't know, but it appears you are expecting a lawyer to scrutinise every word that is used in every communication and ask "is there any ambiguity" in what we are saying? do we need to clarify and "whereas and where-to-for" our communications and draft a contract with all the terms precisely defined at risk of the "media" and the "uptheclarets interpreters" deciding at a later date that something else was meant....

I'm not sure it's the government that has the habit you speak of, I think it's others who should remember how they understood what was said when it was said and not spend their time trying to find the "hairs to split" in their meaning at a later date.

[tiger76]

A government that doesn’t consistently lie is my minimum requirement.

If your waiting for a government that never does that,you'll have more success waiting for godot i'm afraid.

[martin_p]

If your waiting for a government that never does that,you'll have more success waiting for godot i'm afraid.

I said ‘consistently’. All governments have lied occasionally but over the last five years it’s become so endemic that people like Damo can’t remember a time it wasn’t like that. To coin an in vogue phrase it’s the ‘new normal’.

[TVC15]

Perfect if you’re on benefits if you’ve just lost your job!

What has that got to do with anything ?
Are they not allowed to go on the Turf or play golf if they are on benefits or lose their job ?

Can you think of any other sport / activity which costs around £2.50 per hour ?

You’ve strayed a bit from saying golf was for the upper classes to an argument now that Victorian kids in the workhouses would struggle to afford to play golf.

Not even sure why you are debating this when you clearly know nothing about the sport and not been on a golf course for the last few decades. Stick to something you know about eh.

[tiger76]

I said ‘consistently’. All governments have lied occasionally but over the last five years it’s become so endemic that people like Damo can’t remember a time it wasn’t like that. To coin an in vogue phrase it’s the ‘new normal’.

If what you say is true,then the public will soon grow tired of it,and they'll suffer with the electorate.

An example i could cite is claiming brexit's done,when most sensible people know this is far from the truth,and this could cause the government problems in a few months,when they have to ask for an extension,which they will need to.

Anyway i don''t want to digress too much,but eventually their lies and half truths will undermine them,if the opposition can prove their competence to govern,then people will have an alternative to consider hopefully.

[martin_p]

If what you say is true,then the public will soon grow tired of it,and they'll suffer with the electorate.

An example i could cite is claiming brexit's done,when most sensible people know this is far from the truth,and this could cause the government problems in a few months,when they have to ask for an extension,which they will need to.

Anyway i don''t want to digress too much,but eventually their lies and half truths will undermine them,if the opposition can prove their competence to govern,then people will have an alternative to consider hopefully.

It got them elected!

[NewClaret]

It got them elected!

Corbyn got Boris elected.

[dsr]

We know that 73,191 were tested today. Those that have had kits delivered today will be tested on subsequent days when they return it and appear on the figures for those days.

If you’re going to set a target then own up when you don’t meet it, don’t try and move the goalposts.

So what is the actual total for today, if you're counting only the test performed today plus those received back today that were sent out earlier? Presumably you are saying that fewer than 26,809 came back in the post - do you have the figure?

[martin_p]

So what is the actual total for today, if you're counting only the test performed today plus those received back today that were sent out earlier? Presumably you are saying that fewer than 26,809 came back in the post - do you have the figure?

The actual total for today is 73,191. That’s what I meant when I said ‘73,191 were tested today’.

[NewClaret]

If what you say is true,then the public will soon grow tired of it,and they'll suffer with the electorate.

An example i could cite is claiming brexit's done,when most sensible people know this is far from the truth,and this could cause the government problems in a few months,when they have to ask for an extension,which they will need to.

Anyway i don''t want to digress too much,but eventually their lies and half truths will undermine them,if the opposition can prove their competence to govern,then people will have an alternative to consider hopefully.

To be honest, what I think the electorate will remember in 5 years time is the world leading job support scheme the government put in place and that the NHS didn’t get overwhelmed. They may also remember some of the PPE struggles and a slowness to increase testing capacity. I doubt those not obsessed with it will recollect much else. Same with Brexit. If it gets done, that’s what they’ll remember - extension or no extension.

The majority of folk don’t spend their time critiquing every government move and will judge them in the whole.

As for lies/half truths, it’s more commonly called spin. They’re all at it in politics at every level, as you point out. But in general I would say we are unbelievably lucky to have such a transparent government and free press in this country. I have a lot more confidence in our Covid data than I do China, the US, and Russia.

[dsr]

The actual total for today is 73,191. That’s what I meant when I said ‘73,191 were tested today’.

So what did you mean by "Those that have had kits delivered today will be tested on subsequent days when they return it and appear on the figures for those days.". Are you saying that no tests were returned today?

[martin_p]

So what did you mean by "Those that have had kits delivered today will be tested on subsequent days when they return it and appear on the figures for those days.". Are you saying that no tests were returned today?

Test returned today will have been delivered to those who asked for them on previous days, they’re going by Royal Mail 24 hour so it’s not possible for you to receive a test and it be returned (and received) by the lab on the same day.

[martin_p]

To be honest, what I think the electorate will remember in 5 years time is the world leading job support scheme the government put in place and that the NHS didn’t get overwhelmed. They may also remember some of the PPE struggles and a slowness to increase testing capacity. I doubt those not obsessed with it will recollect much else. Same with Brexit. If it gets done, that’s what they’ll remember - extension or no extension.

The majority of folk don’t spend their time critiquing every government move and will judge them in the whole.

As for lies/half truths, it’s more commonly called spin. They’re all at it in politics at every level, as you point out. But in general I would say we are unbelievably lucky to have such a transparent government and free press in this country. I have a lot more confidence in our Covid data than I do China, the US, and Russia.

So 30,000 dead forgotten then.

[dsr]

Test returned today will have been delivered to those who asked for them on previous days, they’re going by Royal Mail 24 hour so it’s not possible for you to receive a test and it be returned (and received) by the lab on the same day.

Is today the first day they have posted any?

[martin_p]

Is today the first day they have posted any?

No

[taio]

Test returned today will have been delivered to those who asked for them on previous days, they’re going by Royal Mail 24 hour so it’s not possible for you to receive a test and it be returned (and received) by the lab on the same day.

What about same day at satellite centres?

[martin_p]

What about same day at satellite centres?

What about them?

[NewClaret]

So 30,000 dead forgotten then.

Well, it’ll be a lot more than that, sadly, but I was talking about people’s recollection of the government response specifically. Otherwise I would also have added the amazing work of the NHS, colonel Tom, and for me things like the Thursday night clapping & virtual pub quiz.

[Damo]

Martin having a mare again. Jesus wept

[martin_p]

Martin having a mare again. Jesus wept

Go on then, humour me, what have I got wrong? The government supplied figures? The government lying?

[taio]

What about them?

The point being you want to use the absolute minimum figure of 73k with no regard for activity in relation to kits delivered or via satellite centres either yesterday or the day before or, for that matter, repeat tests for clinical reasons.

[martin_p]

Well, it’ll be a lot more than that, sadly, but I was talking about people’s recollection of the government response specifically. Otherwise I would also have added the amazing work of the NHS, colonel Tom, and for me things like the Thursday night clapping & virtual pub quiz.

It’s likely to be the numbers dead and getting back to normal while minimising the damage that has the biggest impact on public perception. It the public do turn against the government then the demonstrable lies they’ve told will be used against them, which is another reason I can’t understand them doing it when they don’t have to.

[martin_p]

The point being you want to use the absolute minimum figure of 73k with no regard for activity in relation to kits delivered or via satellite centres either yesterday or the day before or, for that matter, repeat tests for clinical reasons.

I want to use the government supplied figure of people tested to represent the number of people tested. I was asked how many were actually tested and I supplied the figure of those actually tested. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here. How many do you think were tested in the last 24 hour period if it’s not 73k?

[NewClaret]

No.

Nor would I go to a friends house to watch it.

This whole theory that restarting football would cause congregation (outside the ground or at homes) is one of the more obscure of this whole saga in my opinion.

[Taffy on the wing]

This is for all you Boris and Co. apologists........you know who you are! .....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-5 ... ampaign=64

The BBC fails to inform us in this article that a staggering total of 247 people have died of Coronavirus in S.Korea.......most were at the Epicenter of the outbreak...Daegu, Where a christian group meeting was held and it spread rapidly through the Devotees!.. Seoul with a population of nearly 10 Million & densely packed in high rises....2 Deaths!
How did they do it?..... Testing and Tracing & checking temperatures & wearing masks.....AND they did it without a lockdown.
I rest my case...Boris and the Tories made a complete ******** of it.....End of story!

I'm posting this again for you tory apologists