Covid-19

[Grumps]

Iv listened to his interview on Radio 4 and if thats what is being referred to the its far from clear that he made that specific claim. If he's stated it more directly somewhere else then fair enough.

Out of interest have you seen his comments or listened to the interview or do you not have a clue what he did or did not say?

Not seen it, not read it. But I read the post on here, which is what I was replying to. I made no comment at all about what Newton did or didn't say.

[Devils_Advocate]

Not seen it, not read it. But I read the post on here, which is what I was replying to. I made no comment at all about what Newton did or didn't say.

So you were just jumping in with a pretty pointless post. Glad we got that one sorted out

[Grumps]

So you were just jumping in with a pretty pointless post. Glad we got that one sorted out

Absolutely not. The poster said something, I said someone would say different. You proved the point excellently

[Devils_Advocate]

Absolutely not. The poster said something, I said someone would say different. You proved the point excellently

You do realise thats how a discussion on a messageboard works. Now I bet some idiot called Grumps shows what a fool he is and bothers to respond to this post

[Grumps]

You do realise thats how a discussion on a messageboard works. Now I bet some idiot called Grumps shows what a fool he is and bothers to respond to this post

Only to say thankyou for your abuse, says a lot.

[Devils_Advocate]

Only to say thankyou for your abuse, says a lot.

Point proven, thank you and goodnight

[martin_p]

There are three relevant numbers to yesterday.

1. test carried out on the spot = 73k
2. tests sent out via amazon or satellite = 49k
3. tests returned via amazon or satellite = unknown.

What the government is saying is that the number of tests should consist of those carried out on the spot plus those sent out. What you are saying is that is should be those carried out on the spot plus those returned.

You have already said that some were sent out earlier in the week; we can surely assume that some of them were returned. And yet you are adamant that the total of 73k plus the unknown number is still only 73k. Why are you so adamant that the returned tests do not count?

So when I said that tests should be counted when they are returned you’ve taken that to mean that I think returned tests do not count.

There’s not really much point in discussing it with you if you have such a basic lack of comprehension.

Edit - if you can point out to me where the official figures say that the 73k is only made up of on the spot test and doesn’t already include previous day returned tests I’ll have a rethink.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronaviru ... the-public

[dsr]

So when I said that tests should be counted when they are returned you’ve taken that to mean that I think returned tests do not count.

There’s not really much point in discussing it with you if you have such a basic lack of comprehension.

Edit - if you can point out to me where the official figures say that the 73k is only made up of on the spot test and doesn’t already include previous day returned tests I’ll have a rethink.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronaviru ... the-public

I think I have a basic lack of comprehension of you are think, yes. Because you say such contradictary things.

For one, you say that the test numbers should be made up of those tested on the day plus those returned that were sent out on earlier days.

For another, you accept that there were tests returned yesterday from earlier days.

And for another, you are consistent in your claim that there were only 73K tests carried out yesterday.

Where have I said home tests shouldn’t be counted. They should be counted when the have been returned and the test conducted in the lab. I’m really not sure what you’re arguing about, it’s the government that said 73k people were tested not me. Are you saying they’re lying?

I want to use the government supplied figure of people tested to represent the number of people tested. I was asked how many were actually tested and I supplied the figure of those actually tested. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here. How many do you think were tested in the last 24 hour period if it’s not 73k?

The actual total for today is 73,191. That’s what I meant when I said ‘73,191 were tested today’.

[martin_p]

I think I have a basic lack of comprehension of you are think, yes. Because you say such contradictary things.

For one, you say that the test numbers should be made up of those tested on the day plus those returned that were sent out on earlier days.

For another, you accept that there were tests returned yesterday from earlier days.

And for another, you are consistent in your claim that there were only 73K tests carried out yesterday.

The 73k is actually the number of people rested which will include in the spot tests and any postal tests received and actually tested in the lab in that 24 hour period. That’s what ‘people tested’ means surely. I haven’t contradicted myself once, you seem to believe that people tested just means people who have been tested on the spot, where does it say that in the stats.

[dsr]

The 73k is actually the number of people rested which will include in the spot tests and any postal tests received and actually tested in the lab in that 24 hour period. That’s what ‘people tested’ means surely. I haven’t contradicted myself once, you seem to believe that people tested just means people who have been tested on the spot, where does it say that in the stats.

No it isn't. You thought the government were counting postal tests twice and no-one but you has noticed? That explains it.

[taio]

So when I said that tests should be counted when they are returned you’ve taken that to mean that I think returned tests do not count.

There’s not really much point in discussing it with you if you have such a basic lack of comprehension.

Edit - if you can point out to me where the official figures say that the 73k is only made up of on the spot test and doesn’t already include previous day returned tests I’ll have a rethink.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronaviru ... the-public

You're arguing against an entirely logical point. 73k people were tested. You don't think it's reasonable to add kits distributed to homes or satellite centres on Thursday. So that means the lab tests for those delivery mechanisms the previous day but undertaken on Thursday would need to be added to the 73k figure. There is also the matter of retests for purely clinical reasons. So wrong to refer to just 73k because one way or another it understates.

Why would the previous day's lab tests for home and satellite deliveries be included when it is clear they are counted as tests that day? If you can evidence that such double counting is happening please highlight because it would be very concerning.

[martin_p]

No it isn't. You thought the government were counting postal tests twice and no-one but you has noticed? That explains it.

Where have I said that? Go on, find it. I said, quoting from government figures, 73k people where tested. I’ve never questioned that, you’re the one that asked ‘what’s the actual figure’.

[martin_p]

You're arguing against an entirely logical point. 73k people were tested. You don't think it's reasonable to add kits distributed to homes or satellite centres on Thursday. So that means the lab tests for those delivery mechanisms the previous day but undertaken on Thursday would need to be added to the 73k figure. There is also the matter of retests for purely clinical reasons. So wrong to refer to just 73k because one way or another it understates.

Why would the previous day's lab tests for home and satellite deliveries be included when it is clear they are counted as tests that day? If you can evidence that such double counting is happening please highlight because it would be very concerning.

Will people please read what I said. 73k includes the tests delivered on previous days and returned and tested in the period the 73k relates to. If you can find government figures that contradict that I’m more than willing to listen, but I can’t find them.

I repeat, it’s the government that are saying 73K people were tested. You either agree that 73k people we’re tested or you think the government are lying.

[dsr]

Where have I said that? Go on, find it. I said, quoting from government figures, 73k people where tested. I’ve never questioned that, you’re the one that asked ‘what’s the actual figure’.

73k is the number physically tested at hospitals and drive through test centres. It does not include tests sent out or returned by post.

If you think postal tests do not count at all, then you get 73k. If you think that postal tests do count, then you need to add the total to the 73k tested in person.

[Taffy on the wing]

I think when it gets to the point when you have to re quote your own posts to get the attention you crave, it's time to take the hint.

Just trying to get some sense into your brainwashed skull!

[Grumps]

Just trying to get some sense into your brainwashed skull!

Pot...... Kettle.....

[Taffy on the wing]

30,000 and counting are dead due to an unprecedented Global health crisis. It’s literally impossible to compare different countries at this stage which shows your misunderstanding and lack of knowledge.

Why is it impossible?.......what other method can you use to measure incompetence?
Do you think the Government has done a good job?

[taio]

Why is it impossible?.......what other method can you use to measure incompetence?
Do you think the Government has done a good job?

Because there are inconsistencies in how deaths are being counted. There are also doubts about transparency. The best way in time will be analysis of excess deaths.

[Holtyclaret]

Why is it impossible?.......what other method can you use to measure incompetence?
Do you think the Government has done a good job?

In some aspects yes and some aspects no. About what I’d expect when dealing with such an unprecedented event.

A lot of the poor aspects though are being tended to with proper urgency though which bears well for future waves/further unprecedented health crisis/pandemics/the future.

[Taffy on the wing]

Because there are inconsistencies in how deaths are being counted. There are also doubts about transparency. The best way in time will be analysis of excess deaths.

With this Government the inconsistency in counting will be that they undercounted deaths.
I just can't believe so many on here are willing to make excuses for them......the number of dead speaks for itself.
https://images.app.goo.gl/g4TSFLtLrxmb8P3y7

[Grumps]

With this Government the inconsistency in counting will be that they undercounted deaths.
I just can't believe so many on here are willing to make excuses for them......the number of dead speaks for itself.
https://images.app.goo.gl/g4TSFLtLrxmb8P3y7

All deaths have to be registered, and Carnt be hidden

If you haven't had the unfortunate necessity to register a death you won't be aware that you also have to have a cause of death before it can be registered

It's a legal requirement, are you suggesting the government just don't count some, or put them in a bottom drawer somewhere?

[taio]

With this Government the inconsistency in counting will be that they undercounted deaths.
I just can't believe so many on here are willing to make excuses for them......the number of dead speaks for itself.
https://images.app.goo.gl/g4TSFLtLrxmb8P3y7

The number of deaths is tragic. But comparing death league tables at this point isn't that meaningful given they aren't like for like comparisons. I suspect there's more of a chance of some other countries under-counting than the UK but time will tell. At the end of this it will be concluded that the government responded well in some instances and inadequately in others and lessons must be learned.

[TVC15]

I assume he means understated the deaths from Covid rather than any / all deaths.
Seems a pretty logical conclusion given that total deaths during the recent period are double this time last year yet a significant amount of the increase has not been attributed to Covid. I’m not sure this is anything we will ever find out accurately even in years to come.

We know that deaths from Covid were understated by the care home numbers up to the last week or so.

[taio]

I assume he means understated the deaths from Covid rather than any / all deaths.
Seems a pretty logical conclusion given that total deaths during the recent period are double this time last year yet a significant amount of the increase has not been attributed to Covid. I’m not sure this is anything we will ever find out accurately even in years to come.

We know that deaths from Covid were understated by the care home numbers up to the last week or so.

Yes, there will end up being detailed analysis around excess deaths in the future. Some of those are likely to be due to the pandemic but not people who were Covid positive.

[FCBurnley]

For anybody that is interested. Daily telegraph.com.au have an interesting article entitled China cover up. It is based on a 5 eyes intel document that has been leaked to the newspaper. For those whose don’t know , 5 eyes are a joint intelligence agency of UK. Canada. Australia. NZ and USA. Very well written and informative.

[paulatky]

For anybody that is interested. Daily telegraph.com.au have an interesting article entitled China cover up. It is based on a 5 eyes intel document that has been leaked to the newspaper. For those whose don’t know , 5 eyes are a joint intelligence agency of UK. Canada. Australia. NZ and USA. Very well written and informative.

Have you got a link to that article.

Anyone else think that when golf clubs re-open it will be for the under 60’s only.

[Zlatan]

Have you got a link to that article.

Anyone else think that when golf clubs re-open it will be for the under 60’s only.

dont ask them for a link - they expect you to google it for yourself and perhaps find the wrong link.

[Grumps]

I assume he means understated the deaths from Covid rather than any / all deaths.
Seems a pretty logical conclusion given that total deaths during the recent period are double this time last year yet a significant amount of the increase has not been attributed to Covid. I’m not sure this is anything we will ever find out accurately even in years to come.

We know that deaths from Covid were understated by the care home numbers up to the last week or so.

The problem is everybody hung on the daily death figures, even though the government and scientists told us not to. Those figures were deaths in hospital, quite clearly marked as such on the daily graph. If people Carnt work out that didn't include care homes its their fault.
If someone died in a care home from Covid, that's what the death certificate said. Just because it wasn't on the daily graph didn't mean it hadn't happened
They now appear in the figures

[TVC15]

Maybe they are hung up on the daily figures because the government put the charts up every day and every media outlet do the same thing.

As for comparison to other countries. A few weeks ago it was being used as a positive metric as to how the UK was doing compared to Italy, Spain etc.
Now it’s a case of you can’t compare countries because of differences in data collation, culture, demographics, geography / population density etc
In reality the latter reason will always have been correct so other than the shape of the curve why would you bring this graph out every day ?

[TVC15]

Have you got a link to that article.

Anyone else think that when golf clubs re-open it will be for the under 60’s only.

Possibly - if opening golf clubs is one of the initial things to be relaxed.
They may try and do something that protects the most vulnerable for longer.
There are a lot of over 60s golfers though so a fairer / more logical way would be based on the definition of those who have already been defined in the 1.5m of most vulnerable.
How it would be policed is another matter given that it’s been virtually impossible to keep them indoors during the lockdown period if they decide they want to go shopping or walking etc....

[taio]

Maybe they are hung up on the daily figures because the government put the charts up every day and every media outlet do the same thing.

As for comparison to other countries. A few weeks ago it was being used as a positive metric as to how the UK was doing compared to Italy, Spain etc.
Now it’s a case of you can’t compare countries because of differences in data collation, culture, demographics, geography / population density etc
In reality the latter reason will always have been correct so other than the shape of the curve why would you bring this graph out every day ?

I've seen and heard loads of people refer to the difficulty and unreliability of comparing death rates across countries throughout the pandemic.

Imagine the uproar if the UK didn't follow suit with publishing daily death figures and, in any case, the UK trajectory and trend comparisons with other countries are important.

[jrgbfc]

Have you got a link to that article.

Anyone else think that when golf clubs re-open it will be for the under 60’s only.

When golf courses reopen there's no way over 60s will keep away. I work at a golf club and for a lot of them it is basically their life. A ban would be unworkable anyway, no golf club will want or can afford to alienate their most dedicated, loyal members/customers.

[martin_p]

73k is the number physically tested at hospitals and drive through test centres. It does not include tests sent out or returned by post.

If you think postal tests do not count at all, then you get 73k. If you think that postal tests do count, then you need to add the total to the 73k tested in person.

Where does it say that.

[Claretincraven]

Go on I give up.
After trying to work it out I really cant, it could be so many of you.
Whose going to own up to being IT in a previous life?

[paulatky]

When golf courses reopen there's no way over 60s will keep away. I work at a golf club and for a lot of them it is basically their life. A ban would be unworkable anyway, no golf club will want or can afford to alienate their most dedicated, loyal members/customers.

What if its a government requirement !!

[Grumps]

Go on I give up.
After trying to work it out I really cant, it could be so many of you.
Whose going to own up to being IT in a previous life?

Look for someone with not a lot of posts

[Grumps]

What if its a government requirement !!

What, like not visiting family? Seems a lot of that is going on unchecked

[paulatky]

Possibly - if opening golf clubs is one of the initial things to be relaxed.
They may try and do something that protects the most vulnerable for longer.
There are a lot of over 60s golfers though so a fairer / more logical way would be based on the definition of those who have already been defined in the 1.5m of most vulnerable.
How it would be policed is another matter given that it’s been virtually impossible to keep them indoors during the lockdown period if they decide they want to go shopping or walking etc....

£60 for 1st offence and 3 pts off their handicap

[tim_noone]

Go on I give up.
After trying to work it out I really cant, it could be so many of you.
Whose going to own up to being IT in a previous life?

No one comes close.....great poster.

[jrgbfc]

What if its a government requirement !!

I still don't see how they could enforce it, unless you threaten to fine the club. If they advise it, I guarantee 99% will ignore it. They're absolutely desperate to get back out there, this last few weeks has felt like torture to them.

[1HappyClaret]

The deaths figure does now include deaths in care homes that have had a positive COVID-19 test. They do not include suspected COVID-19 deaths even if it is on the death certificate. COVID-19 deaths are predicted to be about 45,000 now.

In relation to test the ones sent in the post early in the week will be included in the figures for the day they were sent out and won’t be counted again when returned if returned at all so the figure of 73,000 for 30 April will be ones tested that day in the hospitals or the drive through. Today’s figure is 105,000 tests but only 63,000 people tested. To have track and trace it doesn’t matter if you have 122,000 tests a day or 300,000 tests a day if you are only testing 73,000 people. It is the number of people tested that is the real number we should concentrate on.

It has also come to light today that a lot of the tests sent in the post did not have a return address on them and when people have contactedPublic Health England they have been told to throw them away and not use them.

[paulatky]

I still don't see how they could enforce it, unless you threaten to fine the club. If they advise it, I guarantee 99% will ignore it. They're absolutely desperate to get back out there, this last few weeks has felt like torture to them.

Just think Boris will try to shield those that are considered the most vulnerable

[jrgbfc]

Maybe, all will be revealed I suppose. There's a few rumours doing the rounds that courses will be allowed to reopen on Monday 11th. I can't see it personally, think it will be end of the month.

[tiger76]

May 26th being touted as a possible day for some works to return,dependent on the virus continuing it's downward spiral.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/uk-could-retu ... 7614.html

This pending legal challenge wouldn't have anything to do with the government's desire would it.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-l ... 7124.html

[Claretincraven]

No one comes close.....great poster.

Absolute pr1ck.
Like quite a few on this thread.

[Jakubclaret]

When golf courses reopen there's no way over 60s will keep away. I work at a golf club and for a lot of them it is basically their life. A ban would be unworkable anyway, no golf club will want or can afford to alienate their most dedicated, loyal members/customers.

Potentially nobody will be alienated potentially people could die so they will be alienated if there die whether there like it or not, the game changer will simply be is, look if you want to do this that & the other & chance your arm it's at your own peril with no mollycoddling, the NHS staff are playing a game of Russian roulette carrying out there tasks, the brutal truth is all across the board for now, people will need to be very careful from waking up to going to bed. A game of golf over life won't be a consideration.

[TVC15]

Potentially nobody will be alienated potentially people could die so they will be alienated if there die whether there like it or not, the game changer will simply be is, look if you want to do this that & the other & chance your arm it's at your own peril with no mollycoddling, the NHS staff are playing a game of Russian roulette carrying out there tasks, the brutal truth is all across the board for now, people will need to be very careful from waking up to going to bed. A game of golf over life won't be a consideration.

And in English that means what ?

[Elizabeth]

Check out the ONS site Happy. Your assertion of what is counted as a Care Home Covid death is not correct as I read it.
The ONS state a Care Home Covid death is counted in the figures we see if the Home says Covid is suspected.
They make it clear that there does not have to have been a Covid test, mention of the virus on the death certificate or a doctors examination.
I am happy to be corrected if you read the information and can point out where it says different or I have misinterpreted it.

[1HappyClaret]

Check out the ONS site Happy. Your assertion of what is counted as a Care Home Covid death is not correct as I read it.
The ONS state a Care Home Covid death is counted in the figures we see if the Home says Covid is suspected.
They make it clear that there does not have to have been a Covid test, mention of the virus on the death certificate or a doctors examination.
I am happy to be corrected if you read the information and can point out where it says different.

The ONS figures do include suspected COVID deaths but the up to date daily Government figures do not. The charts they show usually says this at the bottom.

[Elizabeth]

I did not know that all the care home deaths in the government figures we see have all had a Covid test.