Covid-19

[martin_p]

Just for starters, when you cant resist comparing countries while we're slap bang in the middle of this unprecedented global pandemic -


Population density within London city limits averages an estimated 7,200 inhabitants per square mile







The population density in Sweden is 64 people per square mile



Have a ponder on that......

And the population density in Singapore is 21,646 people per square mile. Deaths 18. Ponder that.

[Devils_Advocate]

I wonder how many of the conspiracy theorists on here have recently sent a text message?

The government can find out more about you from that, than any NHS tracing app can do.

Any sources or evidence around how govts can legally access and use your text messages to find out info about you compared with an app where you consent to give them your data and allow them to store it and use it?

[Quicknick]

And the population density in Singapore is 21,646 people per square mile. Deaths 18. Ponder that.

'Population density' doesn't mean much. It is 'lived density' that does.

[martin_p]

I wonder how many of the conspiracy theorists on here have recently sent a text message?

The government can find out more about you from that, than any NHS tracing app can do.

You think the government have our text messages?

[Devils_Advocate]

You think the government have our text messages?

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me

[RingoMcCartney]

And the population density in Singapore is 21,646 people per square mile. Deaths 18. Ponder that.

So would it , given we're slap bang in the middle of this unprecedented global pandemic, be fair to compare Sweden's relative performance with Singapore? No. It would be better to gather all the information when it's over and each country's unique circumstances and challenges have been taken into account

The UK has the worst rates of obesity in western Europe . Its suspected that obesity has a considerable impact on survival rates for those with the virus.

Till all the information has been gathered, opinion as to who's done well and who hasn't is all pure conjecture.

[RingoMcCartney]

'Population density' doesn't mean much. It is 'lived density' that does.

Sweden has the highest number of single occupancy homes in Europe, I think.

The UK has high rates of multiple occupancy properties

Apples with pears...

[RingoMcCartney]

I'm done on this thread for the time being.

However, if someone can name one person, just one person in the whole world, in any country you like , that right now, has all the available facts at their disposal, regarding the 2020 Covid 19 global pandemic. Who can therefore, draw objective conclusions and assessments and be in a strong position to name and shame who got it right and who got it wrong.

Post their name on here!

Stay safe and keep well one and all.

[martin_p]

So would it , given we're slap bang in the middle of this unprecedented global pandemic, be fair to compare Sweden's relative performance with Singapore? No. It would be better to gather all the information when it's over and each country's unique circumstances and challenges have been taken into account

The UK has the worst rates of obesity in western Europe . Its suspected that obesity has a considerable impact on survival rates for those with the virus.

Till all the information has been gathered, opinion as to who's done well and who hasn't is all pure conjecture.

But you only wanted to use the available facts (your words not mine).

[ksrclaret]

I can’t wait, to see, who can, name, just one person. Who has, all the facts, at their disposal. Regarding the 2020, Covid, 19. Pandemic.

[Grumps]

You think the government have our text messages?

Several government dept have access to all data on text messages... From... To... Time... Where phone was... Content...
And bearing in mind those complaining about the NHS app don't trust the government, I guess they think they'll access these text messages as and when they want.

[Grumps]

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me

Instead of childish replies, check out a few court cases that involved cell siting... Then check out which gov depts have access to such info.

[Devils_Advocate]

Instead of childish replies, check out a few court cases that involved cell siting... Then check out which gov depts have access to such info.

You made the claim, you back it up. Court cases suggest somebody doing something illegally which sames strange for the topic of conversation but happy to educate myself with your help

[martin_p]

Instead of childish replies, check out a few court cases that involved cell siting... Then check out which gov depts have access to such info.

Cell site data is all about where a phone was when it connected to a network, it doesn’t record the contents of a text message.

[TVC15]

Several government dept have access to all data on text messages... From... To... Time... Where phone was... Content...
And bearing in mind those complaining about the NHS app don't trust the government, I guess they think they'll access these text messages as and when they want.

Steve1956 - do you have any of that popcorn left from yesterday ?

[Grumps]

Cell site data is all about where a phone was when it connected to a network, it doesn’t record the contents of a text message.

Really?

[Devils_Advocate]

I found this Grumps but it doesn't sound like the govt van just access your data willy nilly and has some strong controls in place

https://www.gchq.gov.uk/information/inv ... powers-act

Now I can understand some peoples concern that the govt might misuse these powers and access data against their own rules but I didn't have you down for someone who see's the govt as being this immoral and untrustworthy

[Grumps]

You made the claim, you back it up. Court cases suggest somebody doing something illegally which sames strange for the topic of conversation but happy to educate myself with your help

Exactly.... Authorisation is required, but the people on here questioning the app, don't trust the government, that's the whole point.. So they will think the government will access that data anyway
Otherwise, why worry about the app in the first place

[aggi]

Enough will download it... Helping stop the virus out weighs the risk of somebody wanting to see something about you, you don't want them to see, in normal people's eye anyway

Possibly, possibly not.

The same conversation has been happening in Germany. They were originally planning to take the same route as the UK and process the data centrally but, after privacy concerns, they have decided to process it locally on the phones to get a higher roll-out.

[mdd2]

And the population density in Singapore is 21,646 people per square mile. Deaths 18. Ponder that.

Maybe given the excess deaths we have here we should change our health care system to the ones used in other countries in the Far East and Europe and dismantle the NHS as clearly it is failing.

[martin_p]

Exactly.... Authorisation is required, but the people on here questioning the app, don't trust the government, that's the whole point.. So they will think the government will access that data anyway
Otherwise, why worry about the app in the first place

But that’s nothing to do with cell site analysis. That’s about intercepting messages when given legal permission to do so. That access is controlled by the courts not the government.

[Devils_Advocate]

Exactly.... Authorisation is required, but the people on here questioning the app, don't trust the government, that's the whole point.. So they will think the government will access that data anyway
Otherwise, why worry about the app in the first place

Nope the govt through this app are giving themselves the legal consent to collect and use the data. What we dont trust is that they will use that consent responsibly and not for ulterior purposes.

With SMS messages it would take a severe breach of rules and law for the govt to just access anybodys text messages and so the protections are completely different

[martin_p]

Maybe given the excess deaths we have here we should change our health care system to the ones used in other countries in the Far East and Europe and dismantle the NHS as clearly it is failing.

It’s nothing to do with the quality of healthcare, it’s the speed of the lockdown and tracing that has kept infections and therefore deaths down in Singapore.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Very positive news from Wizzair. While 'Normal' is some way off, hoping this is a sign of slow progress towards normal.

[Grumps]

But that’s nothing to do with cell site analysis. That’s about intercepting messages when given legal permission to do so. That access is controlled by the courts not the government.

Chief constables and home Secretary actually

[martin_p]

Chief constables and home Secretary actually

The link higher up says orders can’t come into force without being approved by a judge.

[Paul Waine]

Germany has a fraction of our deaths and all the government and its supporters are worried about is how many more tests we have conducted than them.

Well done!

Hi Spijed, not me. I was just providing a little information for those few on here who were concerned that UK was not using 100% of testing capacity every day. Plus, though Germany is only publishing weekly test numbers, providing information that even when "those few on here" who were concerned that UK had only tested 70k+, that Germany's best weekly average, to date, was only achieving 62k.

[Paul Waine]

Countries around the world are developing contact tracing apps. In the U.K. we’re going against science once again, and building one that the government can use to watch us, and gather data on where we go and who we speak with.

https://www.businessinsider.nl/cybersec ... =true&r=US

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -18-months

Hi Andrew, can we assume that Apple and Google already know all they need to know about us, so their "covid-19" contact app doesn't need to include this additional feature?

I've no idea, btw, what you mean by "going against science" - have Apple and Google found a way to build apps that don't use science?

[KateR]

things starting to open slowly, just need to measure it as we go as important for the economies of businesses and the world but need to align and aim to prevent the issue of a second wave as we go.

[martin_p]

Hi Andrew, can we assume that Apple and Google already know all they need to know about us, so their "covid-19" contact app doesn't need to include this additional feature?

We don’t need to assume anything, it’s a fact that the Google and Apple solutions don’t require the data to be stored centrally.

[Jakubclaret]

Hi Jakub, can I ask how old you are? However old you are today, you will in the years ahead you will get older and reach your 60s, 70s and 80s. When you get there you will understand that 60s and 70s and 80s are perfectly capable to make their own decisions. None of them will need you or anyone "to give the old people a (sic) freedom of choice." The older generations (note plural, not a single "old generation") will be able to make their own decisions. Some may have health problems, some may be frightened of the prospect of contracting covid-19 - though, it appears professional footballers like Aguerro also express this fear. Many will not be "frightened," they will already know that exercise and vitamin D is their best defence. They may have kept good health and got to their advanced age because they have all the "good habits" that give them good health. They will certainly have retained their ability to make their own decisions. They may even have the wisdom to pass on some of their learnings to the younger generations. Please let us know when you are ready to be advised by "the old people."

Pray do tell me how somebody with advanced progressive dementia or Alzheimer's can make a sound judgement call on assessing whether it's deemed safe to venture outdoors or stop inside, we have or should have a duty of care towards vulnerable people, yes old people are capable mostly from making the decisions for themselves I never implied they wasn't, I get the impression it seems to be a popular consensus that the old people all want to be outdoors as the popular view is it's beneficial, I'm not sure if it's occurred to you but with recent events old people may want to stop inside & to add they are more than capable of deciding that for themselves. When you've working all your life trying to enjoy retirement believe me the last thing you want to be doing is trying to dodge people & surfaces because a deadly virus is lurking. Let the people decide for themselves, it's a popular notion that exercise & fresh air is good for old people it is, but throw a potentially deadly virus into the mix doesn't bode well for an happy marriage.

[Grumps]

The link higher up says orders can’t come into force without being approved by a judge.

You're probably looking at the wrong thing
Search RIPA... A hard read, but the authorisation for obtaining communication data ain't a judge, or court.
We're going off piste really, but I've had enough dealings to know a little of what iam talking about

[Grumps]

I found this Grumps but it doesn't sound like the govt van just access your data willy nilly and has some strong controls in place

https://www.gchq.gov.uk/information/inv ... powers-act

Now I can understand some peoples concern that the govt might misuse these powers and access data against their own rules but I didn't have you down for someone who see's the govt as being this immoral and untrustworthy

As posted above, its RIPA that's the relevant authority.
I don't think they would..... But my point is there are people who would think that... And regularly post on here.

[TVC15]

Hi Spijed, not me. I was just providing a little information for those few on here who were concerned that UK was not using 100% of testing capacity every day. Plus, though Germany is only publishing weekly test numbers, providing information that even when "those few on here" who were concerned that UK had only tested 70k+, that Germany's best weekly average, to date, was only achieving 62k.

Hi Paul
I’m guessing that the concern about our numbers compared to Germany were more about we were several laps behind them in terms of cumulative tests undertaken and secondly our need to ramp up testing was greater given the numbers of deaths in the respective countries.

Not saying any of this is easy - very clearly it’s not but on this specific issue of testing I think Hancock and the government dug themselves into a bit of hole and there was too much focus from everyone (including media) about the number and the date.
The change of language when the number was looking unlikely from capacity to actual tests was to put it kindly unseemly and then the website being rushed out and then being closed down within minutes due to the demand etc was again all about the number and the date.
I’m glad the date has been and gone and hopefully they can just focus on what is needed in terms of the testing of key workers and their families and the next phase of test and trace and getting the country slowly back up and running.

[aggi]

Talking about having facts and figures-

Name one person, just one person in the whole world, in any country you like , that right now, has all the available facts at their disposal, regarding the 2020 Covid 19 global pandemic. Who can therefore, draw objective conclusions and assessments and be in a strong position to name and shame who got it right and who got it wrong.

Just one.

I am enjoying this concept that you can't validly criticise something unless one person has all of the facts and figures.

I'm looking forward to Ringo deleting his various criticisms on here or naming the one person who had all of the facts and figures about the Labour Party, Brexit, etc.

[martin_p]

You're probably looking at the wrong thing
Search RIPA... A hard read, but the authorisation for obtaining communication data ain't a judge, or court.
We're going off piste really, but I've had enough dealings to know a little of what iam talking about

Ok, I’ll concede that point, I can’t be bothered to look it up. But this is still a long way from your original post that implied the government has access to everyone’s texts and is nothing at all to do with cell siting (as you claimed). It’s a power to intercept a communication that can be granted by the Home Secretary. So the claim that the government has access to everyone’s text messages as a counter to them tracking who you’ve been near via an app they want everyone to install is wide of the mark to say the least!

[Steve1956]

Steve1956 - do you have any of that popcorn left from yesterday ?

The amount of bickering and talking shite by some on here has rendered us all out of popcorn mate....will olives and an avocado dip do?

[Paul Waine]

'Population density' doesn't mean much. It is 'lived density' that does.

Thanks for this post, Quicknick. I'd not heard the expression "lived density" before - though I did "get" the meaning.

An interesting article and stats on European "lived density" here:

https://www.citylab.com/life/2018/02/th ... ty/552815/

I'm sure we will be hearing more about "lived density" in the months ahead as the discussion about covid-19 outcomes becomes more "sophisticated." Alongside "lived density" I'd offer the suggestion that contacts among the population and, therefore, opportunities for "infection spreading," will be significant contributors to the scale of covid-19 amongst populations.

[Devils_Advocate]

As posted above, its RIPA that's the relevant authority.
I don't think they would..... But my point is there are people who would think that... And regularly post on here.

Your original post was about the govt having access to our text messages.

RIPA makes a bid distinction between Communications Data that does not need a court warrant but also does not allow access to read the content of the texts and Interception of Communications where the content of texts can be accessed and where judicial approval is required

https://fullfact.org/law/powers-intelligence-services/

• Communications data (IPA 2016)
  ‘Communications data’ is information about someone’s communications rather than the contents of it. So in the case of an email, the communications data would be who sent it, who received it, the time and date—but not the actual text of the email.
  
  A range of public bodies, from GCHQ to the Food Standards Agency, can get access to communications data. A request needs to be authorised by a senior figure within that organisation. They can only authorise it if the request is necessary for one of 10 purposes, the first of which is “national security”.
  
  Communications data includes records of which websites someone has visited, although there are more restrictions on accessing these records.
  
  Phone and internet companies that have your communications data can be told to hold onto it for up to 12 months.
  
  Interception of communications (IPA 2016)
  This covers the actual content of communications—listening to the actual words spoken on a phone call or reading the text of an email.
  
  The heads of the intelligence agencies, some police forces and HMRC can intercept communications if they have a warrant. The Home Secretary (personally) can grant a warrant if she deems it necessary for national security, to fight serious crime, or to protect the economy at a national security level.
  
  Except in urgent cases, the Home Secretary’s decision then has to be approved by a Judicial Commissioner. The post of Judicial Commissioner is only open to people who have been a senior judge (High Court or above).

I wonder how many of the conspiracy theorists on here have recently sent a text message?

The government can find out more about you from that, than any NHS tracing app can do.

So you think the govt can find out more information about me from my text messages where they have to either break the law or get approval from the Home Secretary and a High Court judge than they can from me putting my info into their App which I have consented for them to collect, store and use with minimal controls and checks?

Come on mate just accept you made a throwaway comment that doesn't stand up and that you were wrong. You will look a lot better person for it

[TVC15]

The amount of bickering and talking shite by some on here has rendered us all out of popcorn mate....will olives and an avocado dip do?

Avocado dip ?
Mother of God - I’ll be lynched in Burnley if I’m seen with that goo.
Any scampi fries ?

[Steve1956]

Avocado dip ?
Mother of God - I’ll be lynched in Burnley if I’m seen with that goo.
Any scampi fries ?

[Grumps]

Your original post was about the govt having access to our text messages.

RIPA makes a bid distinction between Communications Data that does not need a court warrant but also does not allow access to read the content of the texts and Interception of Communications where the content of texts can be accessed and where judicial approval is required

https://fullfact.org/law/powers-intelligence-services/

• Communications data (IPA 2016)
  ‘Communications data’ is information about someone’s communications rather than the contents of it. So in the case of an email, the communications data would be who sent it, who received it, the time and date—but not the actual text of the email.
  
  A range of public bodies, from GCHQ to the Food Standards Agency, can get access to communications data. A request needs to be authorised by a senior figure within that organisation. They can only authorise it if the request is necessary for one of 10 purposes, the first of which is “national security”.
  
  Communications data includes records of which websites someone has visited, although there are more restrictions on accessing these records.
  
  Phone and internet companies that have your communications data can be told to hold onto it for up to 12 months.
  
  Interception of communications (IPA 2016)
  This covers the actual content of communications—listening to the actual words spoken on a phone call or reading the text of an email.
  
  The heads of the intelligence agencies, some police forces and HMRC can intercept communications if they have a warrant. The Home Secretary (personally) can grant a warrant if she deems it necessary for national security, to fight serious crime, or to protect the economy at a national security level.
  
  Except in urgent cases, the Home Secretary’s decision then has to be approved by a Judicial Commissioner. The post of Judicial Commissioner is only open to people who have been a senior judge (High Court or above).

So you think the govt can find out more information about me from my text messages where they have to either break the law or get approval from the Home Secretary and a High Court judge than they can from me putting my info into their App which I have consented for them to collect, store and use with minimal controls and checks?

Come on mate just accept you made a throwaway comment that doesn't stand up and that you were wrong. You will look a lot better person for it

So you accept the data exists?
Could the government gain access? Yes they could.
Do I think they would break the law to do it..... NO.
My post was aimed at one particular group, as you've pointed out... The conspiracy theorists.... And they might think they would...
Any normal person wouldn't think they would

[Devils_Advocate]

So you accept the data exists?
Could the government gain access? Yes they could.
Do I think they would break the law to do it..... NO.
My post was aimed at one particular group, as you've pointed out... The conspiracy theorists.... And they might think they would...
Any normal person wouldn't think they would

Who are the conspiracy theorists on here and lets ask them? Your implication was that all the people on here not trusting the govt with the data from the app (people like me) are the conspiracy theorists who therefore would be worried about the govt reading their text messages (im not)

The simple conclusion is that all our data is far more readily and legally accessible in the app and your strawman about faceless conspiracy theorists does not hide the fact that as normal you were just spouting unchecked boll*x and once challenged you show yourself up

[Taffy on the wing]

What's the problem in Germany? Capacity for 800,000 tests per week (114,286 per day), but only performed 436,137 last week - average 62,305 per day? That's only 55% of capacity.

And 436,137 is the highest weekly testing Germany has carried out.

They started testing early on....the demand is low because of it.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Your original post was about the govt having access to our text messages.


So you think the govt can find out more information about me from my text messages where they have to either break the law or get approval from the Home Secretary and a High Court judge than they can from me putting my info into their App which I have consented for them to collect, store and use with minimal controls and checks?

Come on mate just accept you made a throwaway comment that doesn't stand up and that you were wrong. You will look a lot better person for it

I always thought that if you were in a car accident the first thing the police do is check with the phone company that you weren't actively using your phone at that time. I didn't think it needed various court orders etc.
I also know people who were nicked for selling things they shouldn't and the police accessed their messages to use as evidence.
Most communications today are done through messaging and social media messaging apps and you literally sign away all rights to privacy when you agree to their terms and conditions.
Take this message board, you can't even delete your account...

"There is no way with standard phpBB, or phpBB as installed here, for a normal user to delete an account. That requires administrator permissions. Since you are not an administrator here, you cannot do that. As a rule, accounts won't be deleted here."

[Paul Waine]

Maybe given the excess deaths we have here we should change our health care system to the ones used in other countries in the Far East and Europe and dismantle the NHS as clearly it is failing.

Hi mdd2, it is to be hoped that the gov't and the electorate will start to think about comparing health systems amongst major European countries - and the health outcomes for the population. Covid-19 is a pandemic and naturally provides prompts comparisons between countries, as all countries are suffering covid-19. Somewhere in the "lessons learned" there must be space for comparing the organisation of national health systems and whether the UK's tax payer funded "free at the point of use" NHS has been an asset and better than Germany's, and many other major EU countries, "compulsory health insurance" health care systems.

[LoveCurryPies]

Interesting article on Sky News site from France. Doctors checked back on people who had respiratory problems during December and January and retested their blood samples for Coronavirus.

They found 1 man who had been hospitalised with flu like symptoms on December 27.

So it is possible there could have been people carrying the virus in the uk in December.

His wife worked in supermarket next to Chinese sushi / fish sellers.

[Grumps]

Who are the conspiracy theorists on here and lets ask them? Your implication was that all the people on here not trusting the govt with the data from the app (people like me) are the conspiracy theorists who therefore would be worried about the govt reading their text messages (im not)

The simple conclusion is that all our data is far more readily and legally accessible in the app and your strawman about faceless conspiracy theorists does not hide the fact that as normal you were just spouting unchecked boll*x and once challenged you show yourself up

Ok

[mdd2]

It’s nothing to do with the quality of healthcare, it’s the speed of the lockdown and tracing that has kept infections and therefore deaths down in Singapore.

Well bless my soul Public Health has nothing to do with health care.

[Devils_Advocate]

I always thought that if you were in a car accident the first thing the police do is check with the phone company that you weren't actively using your phone at that time. I didn't think it needed various court orders etc.
I also know people who were nicked for selling things they shouldn't and the police accessed their messages to use as evidence.
Most communications today are done through messaging and social media messaging apps and you literally sign away all rights to privacy when you agree to their terms and conditions.
Take this message board, you can't even delete your account...

"There is no way with standard phpBB, or phpBB as installed here, for a normal user to delete an account. That requires administrator permissions. Since you are not an administrator here, you cannot do that. As a rule, accounts won't be deleted here."

On your first point see difference between Communication Data and Content of a Communication

On second part then Id need to see examples cos for example another party involved might gave police access to their messages which contain incriminating texts from sender and that is different from Police accessing peoples phone data without permission.