Covid-19

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jackmiggins
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Re: Covid-19

Post by jackmiggins » Tue May 05, 2020 8:46 am

My main problem is that I have very little faith in the intellectual ability of the main governmental figures. Obviously, I’m aware that there are better equipped civil servants working behind the scenes, and the approach thus far has, supposedly been to ‘follow the science’, but have a feeling that political aspirations are now driving the messages coming out of Downing St.
Would be much more comfortable with a ‘watch and wait’ approach to lockdown release. Based on Euro nations of course, as Asian data is dubious, to say the least.

evensteadiereddie
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Re: Covid-19

Post by evensteadiereddie » Tue May 05, 2020 9:08 am

The left = the media ?

Some of it, perhaps, but most of the media must be of the middle ground or to the right.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex
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Re: Covid-19

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Tue May 05, 2020 9:30 am

Oh look, what a surprise, the tory government is using the coronavirus to sell off the NHS...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ate-sector

claretonthecoast1882
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Re: Covid-19

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Tue May 05, 2020 9:31 am

Welcome back to the "right wing toilet" as you described it, can't keep away I guess

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Tue May 05, 2020 9:38 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:31 am
Welcome back to the "right wing toilet" as you described it, can't keep away I guess
I've blocked you.
You're obsessive and weird.

Grumps
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Re: Covid-19

Post by Grumps » Tue May 05, 2020 9:40 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:38 am
I've blocked you.
You're obsessive and weird.
Pot..... Kettle...

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Tue May 05, 2020 9:44 am

From The Guardian today...

The government is using the coronavirus pandemic to transfer key public health duties from the NHS and other state bodies to the private sector without proper scrutiny, critics have warned.

Doctors, campaign groups, academics and MPs raised the concerns about a “power grab” after it emerged on Monday that Serco was in pole position to win a deal to supply 15,000 call-handlers for the government’s tracking and tracing operation.

They said the health secretary, Matt Hancock, had “accelerated” the dismantling of state healthcare and that the duty to keep the public safe was being “outsourced” to the private sector.

In recent weeks, ministers have used special powers to bypass normal tendering and award a string of contracts to private companies and management consultants without open competition.

Deloitte, KPMG, Serco, Sodexo, Mitie, Boots and the US data mining group Palantir have secured taxpayer-funded commissions to manage Covid-19 drive-in testing centres, the purchasing of personal protective equipment (PPE) and the building of Nightingale hospitals.

Now, the Guardian has seen a letter from the Department of Health to NHS trusts instructing them to stop buying any of their own PPE and ventilators.

From Monday, procurement of a list of 16 items must be handled centrally. Many of the items on the list, such as PPE, are in high demand during the pandemic, while others including CT scanners, mobile X-ray machines and ultrasounds are high-value machines that are used more widely in hospitals.

Centralising purchasing is likely to hand more responsibility to Deloitte. As well as co-ordinating Covid-19 test centres and logistics at three new “lighthouse” laboratories created to process samples, the accounting and management consultancy giant secured a contract several weeks ago to advise central government on PPE purchases.

The firm said it was providing operational support for the procurement process of PPE from existing and new manufacturers, but declined to comment further.

“The government must not allow the current crisis to be used as cover to extend the creeping privatisation of the NHS,” said Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.

“The process for the management and purchase of medical supplies must be open, transparent and subject to full scrutiny. Deloitte’s track record of delivering PPE to the frontline since this virus began is not one of success and taking more decision-making authority from NHS managers and local authorities shifts power further from the frontline.”

Tony O’Sullivan, a retired paediatrician who co-chairs the campaign group Keep Our NHS Public, said this was a “dangerous time” for the NHS, and that the “error-ridden response” from government had exposed a decade of underfunding.

“Now, rather than learning from those errors they are compounding them by centralising decision-making but outsourcing huge responsibility for the safety of the population to private companies,” said O’Sullivan.

Allyson Pollock, the director of the Newcastle University Centre for Excellence in Regulatory Science, said tasks including testing, contact tracing and purchasing should be handled through regional authorities rather than central government.

“We are beginning to see the construction of parallel structures, having eviscerated the old ones,” she said. “I don’t think this is anything new, it just seems to be accelerated under Matt Hancock. These structures are completely divorced from local residents, local health services and local communities.”

Friday’s letter, signed by two officials from the Department of Health and Social Care, says that from Monday key equipment will be purchased through a procurement team comprising hundreds of staff from the government’s commercial function and other departments.

Global demand for equipment has been “unprecedented”, according to the letter, and it is therefore “vital that the UK government procures items nationally, rather than individual NHS organisations compete with each other for the same supplies”.

Trusts are told to flag any purchases already in progress so that these can be taken over by the central team and put into a central pot. “The national team can help you to conclude the deal, reimburse you, and manage the products through the national stocks.”

In a separate email, sent from NHS England on Saturday, trusts have been instructed to carry out a daily stock check from the beginning of this week. They must report down to the nearest 100 their stores of 13 types of protective equipment, including gloves, aprons, masks, gowns and eye protection. The information is being gathered by Palantir, a data processing company co-founded by the Silicon Valley billionaire Peter Thiel.

The information will be used to distribute equipment to those trusts most in need, and in some cases move stock from one hospital to another.

A purchasing manager, speaking anonymously, said hospitals were concerned they might be forced to hand over stock and then run out before it could be replaced. “The lead time on some of these orders is 90 days,” said the manager. “Centrally, there is nobody who is able to deliver things more quickly. What this is going to do is force people to hide what they’ve got.”

“This coronavirus pandemic is being used to privatise yet more of our NHS against the wishes of the public, and without transparency and accountability,” said Cat Hobbs, director of campaign group We Own It. “This work should be done within the NHS. It shouldn’t be outsourced.”

“This is not the time for a power grab,” said the Labour MP Rosie Cooper, who sits on the health and social care committee, which is conducting an inquiry into the management of the outbreak. “Whatever contracts are awarded they have got to have a sunset clause. Three months, six months, it has got to be shown to be cost effective for it to continue after a certain date,” she said.

The Department of Health was contacted for comment.

Outsourcing;

Testing centres

Contracts to operate drive-through coronavirus testing centres were awarded under special pandemic rules through a fast-track process without open competition. The contracts, the value of which has not been disclosed, were granted to accountants Deloitte, which is managing logistics at a national level. Deloitte then appointed outsourcing specialists Serco, Mitie, G4S and Sodexo, and the pharmacy chain Boots, to manage the centres.

Lab tests

A coalition of private companies and public bodies have come together to form Lighthouse Labs, to test samples in three centres in Milton Keynes, Cheshire and Glasgow. Deloitte is handling payroll, rotas and other logistics, working alongside pharmaceutical giants GlaxoSmithKline and AstraZeneca, as well as the army and private companies Amazon and Boots.

Nightingale hospitals

Dozens of private companies have won contracts to build, run and support the Nightingale hospitals. Consultancy firm KPMG coordinated the setting up of the first Nightingale at the ExCel centre in east London alongside military planners. Infrastructure consultants including Mott MacDonald and Archus also had roles in the project.

Outsourcing firm Interserve worked on the construction of the Birmingham Nightingale hospital at the NEC, and was awarded a contract to hire about 1,500 staff to run the Manchester Nightingale. G4S secured the contract to supply security guards for all the Nightingale hospitals.

Recruiting extra NHS and hospital staff

Capita, another outsourcing firm, was awarded a contract to help the NHS “vet and onboard thousands of returning nurses and doctors”.

PPE

The government appointed Deloitte to help it ramp up British production of protective equipment and source stocks from the UK and abroad. Some figures in the UK manufacturing industry have described the project as a “disaster” and accused Deloitte of pursuing factories in China – where prices have leapt and supply is tight due to huge global demand – rather than focusing on retooling UK factories to make more kit.

Clipper Logistics, a Yorkshire-based logistics and supply chain firm founded by the Conservative donor Steve Parkin, was awarded government contract to supply and deliver protective equipment to NHS trusts, care homes other healthcare workers.

NewClaret
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Re: Covid-19

Post by NewClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 10:06 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:30 am
Oh look, what a surprise, the tory government is using the coronavirus to sell off the NHS...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ate-sector
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Stopped reading at “government criticised for appointing Serco for 15,000 track-and-trace call handlers”! Oh yeah, because that is traditionally the NHS’s expertise - all those Doctors and Nurses must be devastated that they’re being tupe’d to Serco :lol:

Government are getting track and trace up and running using the power of technology and the might of the private sector. And the guardian are using it to spread some propaganda. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.
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NewClaret
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Re: Covid-19

Post by NewClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 10:08 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:08 am
The left = the media ?

Some of it, perhaps, but most of the media must be of the middle ground or to the right.
I meant “the left wing media”. Perhaps more specifically: Guardian, Observer, Mirror, Channel 4.

Agree, there’s probably less left than centre/right though.

NewClaret
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Re: Covid-19

Post by NewClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 10:12 am

jackmiggins wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 8:46 am
My main problem is that I have very little faith in the intellectual ability of the main governmental figures. Obviously, I’m aware that there are better equipped civil servants working behind the scenes, and the approach thus far has, supposedly been to ‘follow the science’, but have a feeling that political aspirations are now driving the messages coming out of Downing St.
Would be much more comfortable with a ‘watch and wait’ approach to lockdown release. Based on Euro nations of course, as Asian data is dubious, to say the least.
Surprised you feel this way Jack, particularly since it is Boris currently reinforcing the “remain in lockdown” messaging and (so far) resisting the media/Labour demand for an exit plan - presumably precisely because he wants to adopt a “watch and wait” policy based on other Euro nations first.
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Paul Waine
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Re: Covid-19

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 05, 2020 10:13 am

martin_p wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 11:17 pm
Further to this it seems that the way the app is designed you need to send info to the central database in order for warning texts to be sent. So if you opt out of doing that no one will be warned if you have symptoms.
How else could it work, martin?

NHSX app records on registered smart phone that have been within 2 metres of another registered cell phone. Each phone is identified by an anonymous randomly generated number, this random number is held centrally.

Phone user then becomes aware that they are experiencing covid-19 symptoms, so input this into app - and presses the "alert NHSX" button.

NHSX receives this report of symptoms and forwards a contact alert message to all the other anonymously registered cell phones.

Somewhere in this process the NHS "track and trace" teams also need to get involved. How do they do it without the "central database?"

Paul Waine
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Re: Covid-19

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 05, 2020 10:28 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:44 am
From The Guardian today...

A purchasing manager, speaking anonymously, said hospitals were concerned they might be forced to hand over stock and then run out before it could be replaced. “The lead time on some of these orders is 90 days,” said the manager. “Centrally, there is nobody who is able to deliver things more quickly. What this is going to do is force people to hide what they’ve got.”
Interesting from the Guardian. Did they intend to confirm that gov't was right and some parts of the NHS had PPE in their stores, while there were shortages elsewhere?

Central purchasing and supply appears to be the right way to go to ensure that all available supplies get to the areas of most critical needs.

claretonthecoast1882
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Re: Covid-19

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:30 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:38 am
I've blocked you.
You're obsessive and weird.

And you are embarrassed by your own spineless little outburst. Such a shame you won't be able to respond to this as you won't see it coward.

AndrewJB
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Re: Covid-19

Post by AndrewJB » Tue May 05, 2020 10:31 am

NewClaret wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:06 am
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Stopped reading at “government criticised for appointing Serco for 15,000 track-and-trace call handlers”! Oh yeah, because that is traditionally the NHS’s expertise - all those Doctors and Nurses must be devastated that they’re being tupe’d to Serco :lol:

Government are getting track and trace up and running using the power of technology and the might of the private sector. And the guardian are using it to spread some propaganda. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.
Now more than ever the Tories exist to serve the rich. Their actions during this crisis will always be about protecting the interests of the billionaire hedge fund manager than the ordinary person. It is where they get their funding from.

Here’s Boris Johnson on how he despises the working class:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 32896.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... s-20981604
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NewClaret
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Re: Covid-19

Post by NewClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 10:38 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:31 am
Now more than ever the Tories exist to serve the rich. Their actions during this crisis will always be about protecting the interests of the billionaire hedge fund manager than the ordinary person. It is where they get their funding from.

Here’s Boris Johnson on how he despises the working class:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 32896.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... s-20981604
Deary me, you’re going to have a bad 5 years Andrew. I dread to think what all this Tory rule is doing for your mental health mate.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by AndrewJB » Tue May 05, 2020 10:41 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:28 am
Interesting from the Guardian. Did they intend to confirm that gov't was right and some parts of the NHS had PPE in their stores, while there were shortages elsewhere?

Central purchasing and supply appears to be the right way to go to ensure that all available supplies get to the areas of most critical needs.
The NHS had central purchasing before Lansley’s disastrous and expensive reforms. The same reforms that Cameron had promised would never happen, and that nobody in the public asked for.

Now that covid has exposed the flaws in those changes, the governments remedy is not to reinstate the previous system, but hand the work out to their friends in the City. It’s what they do.
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AndrewJB
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Re: Covid-19

Post by AndrewJB » Tue May 05, 2020 10:48 am

NewClaret wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:38 am
Deary me, you’re going to have a bad 5 years Andrew. I dread to think what all this Tory rule is doing for your mental health mate.
I thought you might post a link in which Johnson apologises for those remarks, and talks about how he’s grown to love British working class people - but such a link doesn’t exist. So sad that a few working class Britons voted in a government that despises them.
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CombatClaret
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Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 10:59 am

android wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 9:23 pm
Any chance you could explain that Z scores graph you posted yesterday evening?
Sorry just saw
Deviations from the mean (average), it was just another way of visualizing how the UK has a far higher number of excess deaths that other countries.
We are further away from our average by the highest number of factors.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 11:01 am

a view from outside the UK media bubble.

'Biggest failure in a generation': Where did Britain go wrong?
Unlike Italy, the United Kingdom had time to prepare for the coronavirus tsunami. But as the death toll climbs, critics say Britain's response has suffered from a series of deadly mistakes and miscalculations.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/big ... E6rWDZzVZc

Scientists Fault UK's Pandemic Strategy as Deaths Rise
As the coronavirus continues to infect people across Britain in what will likely turn out to be Europe’s worst outbreak, the government has come under criticism from scientists, who say it has neglected the fundamentals of epidemic control.

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/0 ... lures.html
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dsr
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Re: Covid-19

Post by dsr » Tue May 05, 2020 11:19 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:31 am
Now more than ever the Tories exist to serve the rich. Their actions during this crisis will always be about protecting the interests of the billionaire hedge fund manager than the ordinary person. It is where they get their funding from.

Here’s Boris Johnson on how he despises the working class:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 32896.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... s-20981604
Well, the first article is about how it's easier to bring up children if you have lots of money and aren't working all the hours God sends. Not sure how that's an insult to the working class, but there we go.

He also mentions that women take more of the role in bringing up children than men do - I suppose that's where the sexism comes in. I understand that in a later article, he mentioned that the Pope was catholic, which is a clear a sign of religious prejudice.
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Paul Waine
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Re: Covid-19

Post by Paul Waine » Tue May 05, 2020 11:26 am

CombatClaret wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:01 am
a view from outside the UK media bubble.

'Biggest failure in a generation': Where did Britain go wrong?
Unlike Italy, the United Kingdom had time to prepare for the coronavirus tsunami. But as the death toll climbs, critics say Britain's response has suffered from a series of deadly mistakes and miscalculations.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/big ... E6rWDZzVZc

Scientists Fault UK's Pandemic Strategy as Deaths Rise
As the coronavirus continues to infect people across Britain in what will likely turn out to be Europe’s worst outbreak, the government has come under criticism from scientists, who say it has neglected the fundamentals of epidemic control.

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/0 ... lures.html
NY Times article appears to be a report from the participants in the "Independent SAGE" meeting yesterday. I recommend watching the meeting - DA provided links yesterday - and make you own mind up about what the NY Times reports.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Mala591 » Tue May 05, 2020 11:34 am

Am looking forward to our excellent local golf courses opening in the next two weeks. Two player rounds only initially. Two metre distancing will be no problem. Maybe an initial limit - 10 miles? - on how far you can travel between home and course.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by NewClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 11:35 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:48 am
I thought you might post a link in which Johnson apologises for those remarks, and talks about how he’s grown to love British working class people - but such a link doesn’t exist. So sad that a few working class Britons voted in a government that despises them.
Nope, because I don’t care so much about articles written 25 years ago.

And he seems to be helping the working class a fair bit with his furlough scheme.

But they did vote them in - you need to let it go mate or you’ll have an aneurysm by 2025!

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Re: Covid-19

Post by NewClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 11:38 am

dsr wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:19 am
Well, the first article is about how it's easier to bring up children if you have lots of money and aren't working all the hours God sends. Not sure how that's an insult to the working class, but there we go.

He also mentions that women take more of the role in bringing up children than men do - I suppose that's where the sexism comes in. I understand that in a later article, he mentioned that the Pope was catholic, which is a clear a sign of religious prejudice.
Shame on him, the chauvinist pig.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by NewClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 11:39 am

Mala591 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:34 am
Am looking forward to our excellent local golf courses opening in the next two weeks. Two player rounds only initially. Two metre distancing will be no problem. Maybe an initial limit - 10 miles? - on how far you can travel between home and course.
Have decided after lock down I’m going to start to learn to play golf - get some lessons, etc - so hope they open soon (especially if football is not restarting).

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Re: Covid-19

Post by FactualFrank » Tue May 05, 2020 11:43 am

Mala591 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:34 am
Two player rounds only initially. Two metre distancing will be no problem.
Just make sure you're in a different set of trees at any one time :)

martin_p
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Re: Covid-19

Post by martin_p » Tue May 05, 2020 11:44 am

dsr wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:19 am
Well, the first article is about how it's easier to bring up children if you have lots of money and aren't working all the hours God sends. Not sure how that's an insult to the working class, but there we go.

He also mentions that women take more of the role in bringing up children than men do - I suppose that's where the sexism comes in. I understand that in a later article, he mentioned that the Pope was catholic, which is a clear a sign of religious prejudice.
Notice you’ve ignored the second link where is says blue collar workers are likely to be criminals (amongst other things).

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Re: Covid-19

Post by aggi » Tue May 05, 2020 11:56 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:13 am
How else could it work, martin?

NHSX app records on registered smart phone that have been within 2 metres of another registered cell phone. Each phone is identified by an anonymous randomly generated number, this random number is held centrally.

Phone user then becomes aware that they are experiencing covid-19 symptoms, so input this into app - and presses the "alert NHSX" button.

NHSX receives this report of symptoms and forwards a contact alert message to all the other anonymously registered cell phones.

Somewhere in this process the NHS "track and trace" teams also need to get involved. How do they do it without the "central database?"
A lot of countries are using this model:

In the first model (known as 'the decentralised model'), you tell the system you’re ill and give it no extra information. Periodically, it collects a list of everyone who has said they’re ill, and sends it out to all users of the app. Individual devices look to see if any of its local contacts are on the list, and tells their user if this is the case (subject to some local risk modelling about the sort of encounters they had). Notifications will lead to some health interventions, probably self isolation to start with. In this decentralised model:

every user of the app gets some understanding of who is declared ill (and that list keeps being updated)
but

the public health authority - by design - knows pretty much nothing about ill people


I'm not fundamentally opposed to the centralised approach. My issue is more with the people who are involved on the UK side and that they have done little to earn my trust based on their history.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by Mala591 » Tue May 05, 2020 11:58 am

NewClaret wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:39 am
Have decided after lock down I’m going to start to learn to play golf - get some lessons, etc - so hope they open soon (especially if football is not restarting).
All golf courses (obviously) have their pros and cons. I prefer to rotate between courses, rather than being a member of a single club, just for the variety. I can recommend Towneley, Burnley, Todmorden, Rishton, Marsden, Great Harwood and Whalley. All within 20 minutes drive of Burnley :-)

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Re: Covid-19

Post by corporal jones » Tue May 05, 2020 12:09 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:30 am
Oh look, what a surprise, the tory government is using the coronavirus to sell off the NHS...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ate-sector
problem is that your source is the guardian so flawed from the outset. also outsourcing has been going on for decades under both colours of the political spectrum-do i have to mention PFIs, the biggest and most long term costly out sourcing ever!
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android
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Re: Covid-19

Post by android » Tue May 05, 2020 12:17 pm

CombatClaret wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:59 am
Sorry just saw
Deviations from the mean (average), it was just another way of visualizing how the UK has a far higher number of excess deaths that other countries.
We are further away from our average by the highest number of factors.
Thanks for replying Combat. The graph doesn't mean what you think it means. It could be about lower volatility in the normal data and it does not tell us that the UK has a greater number of excess deaths.

It highlights the danger in latching on to anything that seems to confirm our viewpoint. With all the variations in the way countries are reporting we won't really be much wiser until we get information on excess deaths per capita and all the necessary information on how this virus affects different people (BAME, obese and so on and so on) . Even then it might be difficult to separate the direct covid deaths from the indirect covid deaths (higher rates for suicide, cancer and so on and so on). A long way to go and very rash to jump to conclusions imo.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by jackmiggins » Tue May 05, 2020 12:19 pm

Thread has now been completely hi-jacked by politicos. Thick or what?
Can we resort to reasoned discussion please? Your kind of discourse is exactly what politicians prefer - distract and destroy - quite pathetic.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by tiger76 » Tue May 05, 2020 12:20 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:48 am
I thought you might post a link in which Johnson apologises for those remarks, and talks about how he’s grown to love British working class people - but such a link doesn’t exist. So sad that a few working class Britons voted in a government that despises them.
A few,the Conservatives obtained just shy of 14 million votes in the recent election,i'd say that's more than a few,just maybe those working-class(whatever that means anymore) people have aspiration,and didn't want to live in a country led by Jeremy Corbyn,which would have taken Britain back to the 1970's.British Rail,mass walk-out's,and unions holding the government to ransom,thanks but no thanks.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by martin_p » Tue May 05, 2020 12:21 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:13 am
How else could it work, martin?

NHSX app records on registered smart phone that have been within 2 metres of another registered cell phone. Each phone is identified by an anonymous randomly generated number, this random number is held centrally.

Phone user then becomes aware that they are experiencing covid-19 symptoms, so input this into app - and presses the "alert NHSX" button.

NHSX receives this report of symptoms and forwards a contact alert message to all the other anonymously registered cell phones.

Somewhere in this process the NHS "track and trace" teams also need to get involved. How do they do it without the "central database?"
Aggi has essentially answered the question. There has to be a small element of centralisation so data can be shared about who has symptoms, but the uk has taken a route that centralises so much more than need be. Who was where with who doesn’t need to leave the users phone, the fact that the uk government is choosing to take that data is what is ringing the alarm bells with security/privacy experts.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by jackmiggins » Tue May 05, 2020 12:25 pm

30 k dead, minimal infection thus far - can we get real about this please? We’ve had bugger all local infection in Yorkshire. Just wait till release - it will go through the roof. Is that really so difficult to understand?

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Re: Covid-19

Post by CombatClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 12:29 pm

android wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 12:17 pm
Thanks for replying Combat. The graph doesn't mean what you think it means. It could be about lower volatility in the normal data and it does not tell us that the UK has a greater number of excess deaths.

It highlights the danger in latching on to anything that seems to confirm our viewpoint. With all the variations in the way countries are reporting we won't really be much wiser until we get information on excess deaths per capita and all the necessary information on how this virus affects different people (BAME, obese and so on and so on) . Even then it might be difficult to separate the direct covid deaths from the indirect covid deaths (higher rates for suicide, cancer and so on and so on). A long way to go and very rash to jump to conclusions imo.
Greater than other countries I said, not the greatest.
It shows our change is the most is the statistically significant of those shown, it begs the question if it's so unhelpful why Sky News chose to air it.

Also I will be interest to see how all these indirect Covid deaths people are keen to point to will be offset by a quite probably marked decrease in road traffic accidents, work related incidents etc.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by NewClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 12:38 pm

Mala591 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:58 am
All golf courses (obviously) have their pros and cons. I prefer to rotate between courses, rather than being a member of a single club, just for the variety. I can recommend Towneley, Burnley, Todmorden, Rishton, Marsden, Great Harwood and Whalley. All within 20 minutes drive of Burnley :-)
Thanks mate. Think I’ll need many hours/lessons on a driving range before they let me loose on a course... :shock: but will keep them in mind for when I become half-competent! :D

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Re: Covid-19

Post by NewClaret » Tue May 05, 2020 12:40 pm

jackmiggins wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 12:25 pm
30 k dead, minimal infection thus far - can we get real about this please? We’ve had bugger all local infection in Yorkshire. Just wait till release - it will go through the roof. Is that really so difficult to understand?
What’s your proposal, Jack? Keep people locked up forever?

Hard when people have livings to earn, kids to feed, etc. Especially, as you say, there are large swathes of the country suffering no infection rate at all.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by AndrewJB » Tue May 05, 2020 12:41 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:35 am
Nope, because I don’t care so much about articles written 25 years ago.

And he seems to be helping the working class a fair bit with his furlough scheme.

But they did vote them in - you need to let it go mate or you’ll have an aneurysm by 2025!
They could be forty years old and still be relevant. The words drip with contempt, and you can imagine he’s tried to write it to amuse people of his own class. It conveys the idea that working class people are not fellow citizens but a kind of “untermensch” That is ordinary British people, like those who sit next to you at Burnley games.

The furlough scheme is a cheap con to keep money flowing to those who already have it. The owners of assets aren’t being asked to make a contribution. For the people at the top. It is business as usual.
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Re: Covid-19

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Tue May 05, 2020 12:44 pm

Only the trawden labrador with their hatred of Israel comes close to bitter Andrew and the tory party.
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Re: Covid-19

Post by jackmiggins » Tue May 05, 2020 12:45 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 12:40 pm
What’s your proposal, Jack? Keep people locked up forever?

Hard when people have livings to earn, kids to feed, etc. Especially, as you say, there are large swathes of the country suffering no infection rate at all.
My proposal would be a non political approach - what’s yours??

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Re: Covid-19

Post by taio » Tue May 05, 2020 12:46 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 12:41 pm
They could be forty years old and still be relevant. The words drip with contempt, and you can imagine he’s tried to write it to amuse people of his own class. It conveys the idea that working class people are not fellow citizens but a kind of “untermensch” That is ordinary British people, like those who sit next to you at Burnley games.

The furlough scheme is a cheap con to keep money flowing to those who already have it. The owners of assets aren’t being asked to make a contribution. For the people at the top. It is business as usual.
The furlough scheme is not a con. It has provided essential support for millions. I know loads of people who have been furloughed and who would be knackered financially without the scheme. They certainly don't see it as a con.
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Re: Covid-19

Post by dsr » Tue May 05, 2020 12:48 pm

CombatClaret wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 12:29 pm
Greater than other countries I said, not the greatest.
It shows our change is the most is the statistically significant of those shown, it begs the question if it's so unhelpful why Sky News chose to air it.

Also I will be interest to see how all these indirect Covid deaths people are keen to point to will be offset by a quite probably marked decrease in road traffic accidents, work related incidents etc.
Cancer and heart disease kills about 300k to 400k in a normal year. Roads deaths are about 2,000, work related deaths probably less than that. I doubt that the reduced road and work deaths will be enough to offset the increased cancer and heart deaths.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by android » Tue May 05, 2020 12:51 pm

CombatClaret wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 12:29 pm
Greater than other countries I said, not the greatest.
It shows our change is the most is the statistically significant of those shown, it begs the question if it's so unhelpful why Sky News chose to air it.

Also I will be interest to see how all these indirect Covid deaths people are keen to point to will be offset by a quite probably marked decrease in road traffic accidents, work related incidents etc.
Greater - yes, that's what I said - I didn't say greatest either. So just to repeat - the graph does not show that we have a greater number of excess deaths than the other countries in the graph. It might be the case or it might just indicate lower volatility in the normal data, for example. You posted it without understanding it (99% would not understand it so I'm not having a go at you for that). I can't answer for Sky.

Agree with your last point - it's very complicated.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by AndrewJB » Tue May 05, 2020 1:04 pm

taio wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 12:46 pm
The furlough scheme is not a con. It has provided essential support for millions. I know loads of people who have been furloughed and who would be knackered financially without the scheme. They certainly don't see it as a con.
Of course it’s a con. It keeps money flowing to those who don’t need it. They could instead choose to suspend financial obligations all the way up the ladder. You don’t have to pay rent. Your landlord doesn’t have to pay her mortgage. Her bank doesn’t have to pay wages, all the way up to the top. They haven’t done this, because it will hit those at the top.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by taio » Tue May 05, 2020 1:07 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:04 pm
Of course it’s a con. It keeps money flowing to those who don’t need it. They could instead choose to suspend financial obligations all the way up the ladder. You don’t have to pay rent. Your landlord doesn’t have to pay her mortgage. Her bank doesn’t have to pay wages, all the way up to the top. They haven’t done this, because it will hit those at the top.
It's not seen as a con by those who rely on it - they see it as a generous scheme that has give them much needed financial security while at the same protecting their job.
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Re: Covid-19

Post by AndrewJB » Tue May 05, 2020 1:07 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 12:44 pm
Only the trawden labrador with their hatred of Israel comes close to bitter Andrew and the tory party.
Nobody is stopping you from putting forward facts and evidence to refute me. It’s telling that you’ve opted for a personal attack instead.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by AndrewJB » Tue May 05, 2020 1:17 pm

taio wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:07 pm
It's not seen as a con by those who rely on it - they see it as a generous scheme that has give them much needed financial security while at the same protecting their job.
Of course. A starving person isn’t going to turn their head from a meal on a point of principle. I’m also benefitting from the scheme, as my partner has been furloughed from her job. It doesn’t mean I have think it’s the best system.

Ordinary working people and small business owners up and down the country have stopped earning money in the fight to defeat the virus. They are making a sacrifice. The people above them - the landlords - should also be making a sacrifice, and one that makes the sacrifices of those at the bottom easier.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by tiger76 » Tue May 05, 2020 1:18 pm

To bring the thread back on topic,surprise,surprise,the UK abandoned testing and tracing,because we lacked capacity in the system at the time,tell us something we don't know.

'Lack of capacity' behind initial UK testing approach

The UK switched from community testing and tracing to only focusing on testing hospital patients for coronavirus on 12 March.

Giving evidence to the Commons Health Select Committee, the deputy chief medical officer for England said the change in policy was partly due to a lack of capacity.

Dr Jenny Harries told MPs, “if we had unlimited capacity we would have done [it] differently”.

In Germany and South Korea mass testing continued and was seen to be a factor in controlling the spread of the virus.

Plans to expand testing capacity in the UK to 100,000 tests a day were adopted in early April, with Health Secretary Matt Hancock meeting his target on the last day of the month. However, the opposition Labour party said the government should not have counted tests which had been posted out but not yet taken among its figures.

In his evidence, the government’s chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance said “it would have been better to have ramped up testing quicker” - although he added testing on its own was not a solution to controlling the virus.

Now i agree with Patrick Vallance that testing alone wasn't the answer,but being able to test in much higher numbers than we initially did,could have definitely assisted in limiting the spread,particularly in confined areas,such as care homes,this could have been highly effective if employed earlier,but due to the shortage of testing equipment,the government couldn't have adopted this approach even if they'd have wished to.

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Re: Covid-19

Post by taio » Tue May 05, 2020 1:22 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:17 pm
Of course. A starving person isn’t going to turn their head from a meal on a point of principle. I’m also benefitting from the scheme, as my partner has been furloughed from her job. It doesn’t mean I have think it’s the best system.

Ordinary working people and small business owners up and down the country have stopped earning money in the fight to defeat the virus. They are making a sacrifice. The people above them - the landlords - should also be making a sacrifice, and one that makes the sacrifices of those at the bottom easier.
So you've gone from saying it's a con to saying it's beneficial. I note however you say there's a better system.

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