Covid-19

[martin_p]

I cant think of a political party with 2 leaders. And going off your blind defence of everything Jeremy Corbyn and momentum, I just assumed you supported them.

With regards to the lockdown. That should have been implemented (harder than we did it) for a short period while measures were put into place for people to work in a safe manner, and to give the NHS chance to prep for what was coming.
What we have now is half of the country on an extended, fully paid holiday while the rest of us go to work.
Keeping the current lockdown going isnt achieving anything. I went to asda today and it was packed with people buying all sorts of rubbish. B&Q is full of people buying garden furniture and hot tubs. It's pointless closing small businesses and allowing superstores to carry on like they are with a few small, pointless measures in place.
It's time to get back to normal and concentrate on shielding the vulnerable

If you can’t work out how viruses are less likely to spread in big spaces (supermarkets) rather than small spaces (other shops) it’s no wonder you think it pointless.

[Spijed]

Not good from the government:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 5BdBjmemps

[Colburn_Claret]

And yet the government completely dismissed advice and any understanding gained by other countries that started to see casualties rise in the two weeks or so before cases started to grow in the UK.

The government simply treated any scientific evidence from Italy with utter contempt in the early stages!

Rubbish

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

I cant think of a political party with 2 leaders. And going off your blind defence of everything Jeremy Corbyn and momentum, I just assumed you supported them.

With regards to the lockdown. That should have been implemented (harder than we did it) for a short period while measures were put into place for people to work in a safe manner, and to give the NHS chance to prep for what was coming.
What we have now is half of the country on an extended, fully paid holiday while the rest of us go to work.
Keeping the current lockdown going isnt achieving anything. I went to asda today and it was packed with people buying all sorts of rubbish. B&Q is full of people buying garden furniture and hot tubs. It's pointless closing small businesses and allowing superstores to carry on like they are with a few small, pointless measures in place.
It's time to get back to normal and concentrate on shielding the vulnerable

Is this back to ‘normal’ or the ‘new normal?

Obviously the continuing the current lockdown just might help save a few hundred lives per day.

[Damo]

If you can’t work out how viruses are less likely to spread in big spaces (supermarkets) rather than small spaces (other shops) it’s no wonder you think it pointless.

I'm guessing you just ignored the part of my comment where it suggested putting measures in place?
You can keep the same ammount of distance apart in a green grocers, that you can in a superstore.
These measures are already in place in both. That could easily be replicated in other small shops etc

[AndrewJB]

I cant think of a political party with 2 leaders. And going off your blind defence of everything Jeremy Corbyn and momentum, I just assumed you supported them.

With regards to the lockdown. That should have been implemented (harder than we did it) for a short period while measures were put into place for people to work in a safe manner, and to give the NHS chance to prep for what was coming.
What we have now is half of the country on an extended, fully paid holiday while the rest of us go to work.
Keeping the current lockdown going isnt achieving anything. I went to asda today and it was packed with people buying all sorts of rubbish. B&Q is full of people buying garden furniture and hot tubs. It's pointless closing small businesses and allowing superstores to carry on like they are with a few small, pointless measures in place.
It's time to get back to normal and concentrate on shielding the vulnerable

I’m a member of the Green Party.

I broadly supported what Corbyn was trying to achieve, but mostly I was appalled at the way the media and some in his own party attacked him relentlessly over the entire period of his leadership. By all means attack ideas and principles, but what was done to him went far beyond that. In a democracy we have the right to hear what politicians have to say, so by constantly misrepresenting him and refusing to quote him verbatim the media undermined our democracy. As for the people within Labour who actively worked against the party, they were showing contempt for the membership, and I’d expect Starmer to boot them out.

Corbyn did a lot wrong in the way he presented himself. I think he walked into some of the abuse directed at him. Didn’t defend himself robustly enough. Should have doubled down on the disaffected within his party - although a Labour leader doesn’t have the same power as a Tory one as I understand. So no, I’ve never thought Corbyn was perfect.

[Colburn_Claret]

I think we can level criticism at this juncture, because the same party has been in power for ten years, and the country was woefully unprepared. We don’t need time to process those facts.

As for how a Corbyn government would have acted: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelon ... 05/05/amp/

Thomas G Clark (AAV)
Another Angry Voice (AAV) is a British socialist blog written by Thomas G. Clark, established in 2010. It has regularly criticised the Conservative government and ...

Well there's a surprise, not. You really need to broaden your horizons. As I said in my first post this afternoon, you believe anything that supports your view as fact, and everything that doesn't as bullshit.

I don't see either, why the Tories being in charge for 10 years has anything to do with a virus that nobody had heard of 7 months ago, and we are still learning about everyday. Or maybe you believe that since this virus originated in Communist China, Comrade Jeremy would have done a deal to stop it reaching Britain .

[Colburn_Claret]

What is this misinformation that Andrew is spreading?

Every time he blames the Tories, without knowing all the facts, it is misinformation.
Every time he compares UK statistics to other countries, it is misinformation.

Nobody has all the facts, and it will take a good few years, and a lot of hindsight, before we can compare countries and say what was right and what was wrong. To do so at this point in time is ill conceived, ill advised, and designed solely to throw mud at the government in the hope that it sticks. It's counter productive in a time when the country needs to pull together and support each other, it's designed to divide.

[Lowbankclaret]

I cant think of a political party with 2 leaders. And going off your blind defence of everything Jeremy Corbyn and momentum, I just assumed you supported them.

With regards to the lockdown. That should have been implemented (harder than we did it) for a short period while measures were put into place for people to work in a safe manner, and to give the NHS chance to prep for what was coming.
What we have now is half of the country on an extended, fully paid holiday while the rest of us go to work.
Keeping the current lockdown going isnt achieving anything. I went to asda today and it was packed with people buying all sorts of rubbish. B&Q is full of people buying garden furniture and hot tubs. It's pointless closing small businesses and allowing superstores to carry on like they are with a few small, pointless measures in place.
It's time to get back to normal and concentrate on shielding the vulnerable

If we simply go back to normal now, the prediction of deaths would be between 250,000 and 500,000. Would you be ok with that?

[AndrewJB]

Thomas G Clark (AAV)
Another Angry Voice (AAV) is a British socialist blog written by Thomas G. Clark, established in 2010. It has regularly criticised the Conservative government and ...

Well there's a surprise, not. You really need to broaden your horizons. As I said in my first post this afternoon, you believe anything that supports your view as fact, and everything that doesn't as bullshit.

I don't see either, why the Tories being in charge for 10 years has anything to do with a virus that nobody had heard of 7 months ago, and we are still learning about everyday. Or maybe you believe that since this virus originated in Communist China, Comrade Jeremy would have done a deal to stop it reaching Britain .

This is the kind of responsibility shirking Tories are good at. “In government for the past ten years but we’re not responsible for the state of the NHS.” They ran a three day pandemic exercise in 2016, so they knew exactly where we were weak, and it wasn’t fixed. They farted about doing jack when they could have been preparing throughout January and February. They stopped test and trace and went against the WHO guidelines for a week, didn’t lock the country down fast enough and lost the momentum in the fight. They create an app that is against the law, and now we discover they’ve bought PPE that’s not fit for purpose. You think people shouldn’t criticise this shambles?

[Taffy on the wing]

Fair play taffy, you finally had a go at a male poster. Thought you only aimed your anger at females. As far as your post goes though it is fairly stupid so I will leave my answer there.

So you think Kate is a female?........Loser!

[martin_p]

Every time he blames the Tories, without knowing all the facts, it is misinformation.
Every time he compares UK statistics to other countries, it is misinformation.

Well your first point is him expressing an opinion rather than spreading misinformation, unless you’re going to accuse all the people who think the government are doing a good job of spreading misinformation as well.

The second point is comparing known facts so I’m not sure where the misinformation is there either.

[Taffy on the wing]

Not good from the government:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 5BdBjmemps

Shshsh...you'll wake the apologists.

[tiger76]

Do you believe that? Or is it just something you've been brainwashed with?

So, in the middle of a major national emergency, we change the government? What happens whilst this is taking place? Does the virus very kindly stop for a few weeks whilst things are being put in place? Bring in people who have had no involvement so far? And everything would be fine?

Yes Andrew comes up with some outlandish suggestions,but that one takes the biscuit,how does he propose we change the government,when many MP'S aren't even sitting in Westminster,and why would Keir Starmer even agree to such a request,in purely political terms if the CV crisis is being handled so badly,Labour's best bet is too sit back offer constructive advice,and wait for the government to collapse,Oh! dear they've got an 80 seat majority you say,Oh! well i guess Labour will have to wait until the next election then.At least that gives them 4 years to get their house in order,and rid themselves of the Corbyn cultists,whether they take that chance is another altogether,Starmer's a sensible sort,i'm not sure some of his backbenchers are the type to wait,if Labour really fancy their chances they could call a VONC,but there's more chance of Burnley lifting a domestic cup,then them carrying the house,i admire Andrew's passion,but you have to deal in the land of real politik,oh yeah! i forgot he's a GP member.

[Devils_Advocate]

Nobody has all the facts, and it will take a good few years, and a lot of hindsight, before we can compare countries and say what was right and what was wrong. To do so at this point in time is ill conceived, ill advised, and designed solely to throw mud at the government in the hope that it sticks. It's counter productive in a time when the country needs to pull together and support each other, it's designed to divide.

[keith1879]

I took the trouble to listen to Dominic Raab's address twice this evening because I couldn't believe what I had heard the first time. He spoke for about 5 minutes , discussing what had happened three weeks ago and how the lockdown measures had been extended three weeks ago and then (sounding a brighter note) went on to explain that the PM will be delivering a road map on the next steps on Sunday. He did not at any point in his address actualy say that the lockdown was being extended today and only confirmed that that was the case when answering a question. This seems like such a fundamental error to me that I wonder if he may have inadvertently turned over two pages of his speech instead of one. Laura Kuenssberg (I think it was) was quite correct to suggest that this seemed to be a confusing message.

[keith1879]

Every time he blames the Tories, without knowing all the facts, it is misinformation.
Every time he compares UK statistics to other countries, it is misinformation.

Nobody has all the facts, and it will take a good few years, and a lot of hindsight, before we can compare countries and say what was right and what was wrong. To do so at this point in time is ill conceived, ill advised, and designed solely to throw mud at the government in the hope that it sticks. It's counter productive in a time when the country needs to pull together and support each other, it's designed to divide.

We will never be able to say 100% what was wrong and what was right....but if we have not come up with a fair assessment inside 12 months (based on comparing excess all-cause mortality rates) then we will have failed miserably to tackle the issue. Your statement looks like an apology or an excuse for the government although I understand that it may not be.

[taio]

Yep, stupid tweet.

[Colburn_Claret]

This is the kind of responsibility shirking Tories are good at. “In government for the past ten years but we’re not responsible for the state of the NHS.” They ran a three day pandemic exercise in 2016, so they knew exactly where we were weak, and it wasn’t fixed. They farted about doing jack when they could have been preparing throughout January and February. They stopped test and trace and went against the WHO guidelines for a week, didn’t lock the country down fast enough and lost the momentum in the fight. They create an app that is against the law, and now we discover they’ve bought PPE that’s not fit for purpose. You think people shouldn’t criticise this shambles?

The PPE isn't not fit for purpose, it just doesn't match our standards, there's a difference. Just as some foods that are out of date, are fit to eat.
They built the Nightingale hospitals, all over the country, which thankfully may never get used, but the organisation involved was there.
You're just looking for fault, as you always do, regardless.
You complain that we didn't follow the German plan, because you think that is better. If we'd followed their plan and it failed, you would have been the first to complain that we followed the German plan. Why didn't we have a plan of our own? We didn't listen to the WHO, well there would have been disagreement within the WHO, as there probably is within the sage group. Its all about opinions, and nobody has the answers yet, because we are still learning about this virus.

You probably don't get it, but you just make yourself look silly and bitter.

[evensteadiereddie]

Our government just backed the wrong horses time after time, not their fault....

[randomclaret2]

If only they'd listened to the Up The Clarets brains trust...Never wrong on anything it seems.

[Colburn_Claret]

We will never be able to say 100% what was wrong and what was right....but if we have not come up with a fair assessment inside 12 months (based on comparing excess all-cause mortality rates) then we will have failed miserably to tackle the issue. Your statement looks like an apology or an excuse for the government although I understand that it may not be.

Not an excuse Keith, just an acceptance that picking faults with any strategy, without all the facts, is pointless.
The Times wrote a big article last week, about how Boris got it wrong in January. I didn't hear a word from them about him getting it wrong last January . Which would have been the time to point out his errors.
In time we may well look back and say we should have done this, or we should have done that, but not now. Unless you are wearing the governments boots on that particular day, with that particular advice, how can anyone say with honesty that it was screwed up.

[evensteadiereddie]

I can think of over 30,000 reasons...............................................................................and counting, including the needless deaths of over a hundred NHS heroes, heroes who were judged to be not worth protecting.

[KateR]

So you think Kate is a female?........Loser!

I stayed off here for a while but did read the poor excuses from so many why it's someone else's fault and I want to blame them, not today, but weeks ago because for years I have made it so very plain that I hate them and will blame them for every single thing that occurs. I realized weeks if not months ago it was pointless trying to rationalize anything or point out somethings might well be seen in a positive light because when you're a fanatic and believe in dogma, then truth is irrelevant because you're committed fanatically to your idea and your behavior reflects that.

As to your childish little belief it shouldn't matter one jot in regard to what I say regardless of gender but you seem to think it does and gleefully point it out at every little opportunity even when it is something not from me as evidenced above. Then to compound your claim to be the most obnoxious poster here (although it's close) you have the blatant cheek to call someone a loser, this after having previously posted before about others being insulting and bringing nothing to the discussion.

All I every see from you are insults and liking the licking of Andrew, Martin and Eddies backside when they post, because they have the intelligence to post thoughts and beliefs, which can be discussed and debated, where as you fail miserably every single time by some margin.

And since you're so fixated on gender I can tell you from my personal perspective you're not a man, not in a way shape or form, so just to clarify that you're definitely not a woman either.

Now hopefully we really know what each of us thinks of the other you will perhaps stop trying to stalk me, please.

I feel a little better getting that rant out and apologize to all the other posters for rudely interrupting what should be a thread regarding the virus.

[Zlatan]

Channel 4 is currently demonstrating the damning evidence about the PPE stockpile shortages. 45% of the stock had expired. This is a massive failure of governance.

[evensteadiereddie]

No need to apologise, Kate. Nobody cares .

[jrgbfc]

If only they'd listened to the Up The Clarets brains trust...Never wrong on anything it seems.

I don't get that argument at all. No one is forcing these people to be politicians. If you put yourself forward to be in government then I don't think a little bit of scrutiny from the public you're supposed to be representing is a problem.
Seems like all the Tories turn into massive snowflakes as soon as anyone dare question them.

[NewClaret]

Given all the dissatisfaction on here, surprising that Tory voting intention holding above 50% in the YouGov and Redfield Wilton polls today:

YG - CON 50% (-3), LAB 30% (-2)
RW - CON 50% (-), LAB 31% (-2)

The great thing about living in a democracy is that everyone on here will be able to have their say in 2024.

[NewClaret]

I don't get that argument at all. No one is forcing these people to be politicians. If you put yourself forward to be in government then I don't think a little bit of scrutiny from the public you're supposed to be representing is a problem.
Seems like all the Tories turn into massive snowflakes as soon as anyone dare question them.

No idea why anyone puts themselves forward to be a politician, given the level of media and public scrutiny they get in their roles. I wouldn’t do it for £500k a year, never mind £80k! Does make me wonder if we may get better quality politicians if there were less media/public scrutiny.

[KateR]

Channel 4 is currently demonstrating the damning evidence about the PPE stockpile shortages. 45% of the stock had expired. This is a massive failure of governance.

This is not uncommon and has happened many time over many articles and businesses, while it is massive failure and needs looking at and resolving for the future but near and long term I don't think any particular minister sat in government including the PM will have been the nominated responsible person for storing and preserving stocks for a pandemic.

I do agree the Gov. is ultimately responsible and questions need to be raised and changes need to be enforced and maintained to ensure it is never repeated. Just my thoughts based on my previous involvement in supply chain, storage/preservation, min/max stocks and just in time material management. My involvement was at an holistic level and people were assigned to manage each of those areas down to the store man level, so I would have had some overall responsibility and blame, yet I reported to a Snr VP, who reported to the Group President, who reported to the Chairman. I think I can safely say the Chairman and Group President would never have taken any of the blame and I, plus a couple of others would have been released if this had happened.

[Mala591]

Have the Chinese government said sorry (to the whole of mankind) yet?

[Grumps]

I can think of over 30,000 reasons...............................................................................and counting, including the needless deaths of over a hundred NHS heroes, heroes who were judged to be not worth protecting.

Two very simple questions

1. Who would you prefer in charge at this time

2. Had whoever you said been in charge, what number of deaths would you have accepted

[KateR]

I don't get that argument at all. No one is forcing these people to be politicians. If you put yourself forward to be in government then I don't think a little bit of scrutiny from the public you're supposed to be representing is a problem.
Seems like all the Tories turn into massive snowflakes as soon as anyone dare question them.

Objection M'Lord and argumentative.

[Zlatan]

This is not uncommon and has happened many time over many articles and businesses, while it is massive failure and needs looking at and resolving for the future but near and long term I don't think any particular minister sat in government including the PM will have been the nominated responsible person for storing and preserving stocks for a pandemic.

I do agree the Gov. is ultimately responsible and questions need to be raised and changes need to be enforced and maintained to ensure it is never repeated. Just my thoughts based on my previous involvement in supply chain, storage/preservation, min/max stocks and just in time material management. My involvement was at an holistic level and people were assigned to manage each of those areas down to the store man level, so I would have had some overall responsibility and blame, yet I reported to a Snr VP, who reported to the Group President, who reported to the Chairman. I think I can safely say the Chairman and Group President would never have taken any of the blame and I, plus a couple of others would have been released if this had happened.

The question is "where doe the buck stop?

Personally I would argue that a failure of this magnitude should involve a full and transparent investigation, however, as usual these days politicians wont take any responsibility for it - especially those who have been in power for the past 10 years and whose watch this occurred on. There may be a low level sacrificial lamb, but no one will pay for the ineptitude, will they...?

[Zlatan]

Have the Chinese government said sorry (to the whole of mankind) yet?

why would they? I seen just as much anecdotal "evidence" that the US are heavily involved in research studies and have been sponsoring the research in Wuhan as I have seen evidence that the Chinese have created this virus - I honestly have no idea who to believe as I have absolutely no trust is anything the POTUS comes out with, and I also believe that China are up to no good too. I suppose self determination is an illusion these days (as it always has been in reality).

[KateR]

The question is "where doe the buck stop?

Personally I would argue that a failure of this magnitude should involve a full and transparent investigation, however, as usual these days politicians wont take any responsibility for it - especially those who have been in power for the past 10 years and whose watch this occurred on. There may be a low level sacrificial lamb, but no one will pay for the ineptitude, will they...?

It's a good question indeed and I think someone should/will pay for it or it might be a re-training program, but totally agree it is bad, similar in the states and also I think similar to what others shipped as emergency PPE to other countries without actually checking the state of how things were, (that's giving them the benefit of the doubt there, other countries that is)

[tiger76]

I don't get that argument at all. No one is forcing these people to be politicians. If you put yourself forward to be in government then I don't think a little bit of scrutiny from the public you're supposed to be representing is a problem.
Seems like all the Tories turn into massive snowflakes as soon as anyone dare question them.

No-one's got a problem with scrutiny and rational arguments,the PPE shortage being a prime example,that's definitely a minus mark in the government's column,and as such should be flagged up,it's the constant snide remarks,and one-liners claiming this PM and government are the worst in history,without providing any basis for that opinion,that's what's becoming tiresome,if you want to have a reasoned debate,then by all means point out what you think are shortcomings in the government's actions and strategy,if they're so widespread it shouldn't be difficult to find examples,i'm fairly sure I've posted some myself in the last few days,i absolutely agree the government is accountable whoever they happen to represent,the problem i find with the extremes on both spectrum's,is either this is the best government since sliced bread,or the worst in memory,as usual the truth normally lies somewhere in between those 2 stools of thought,but because many posters remain adamant their perspective is correct,it makes it incredibly difficult to hold a sensible conversation,hence why some valued posters won't come on this thread often,it's usually punch and judy politics,and that turns many off.

[KateR]

why would they? I seen just as much anecdotal "evidence" that the US are heavily involved in research studies and have been sponsoring the research in Wuhan as I have seen evidence that the Chinese have created this virus - I honestly have no idea who to believe as I have absolutely no trust is anything the POTUS comes out with, and I also believe that China are up to no good too. I suppose self determination is an illusion these days (as it always has been in reality).

The Chinese and WHO have to take a large chunk of the blame for it spreading and affecting countries as much as it has done regardless of where it originated, lab, market or other as I think everyone can pretty much agree it originated in China.

[Zlatan]

The Chinese and WHO have to take a large chunk of the blame for it spreading and affecting countries as much as it has done regardless of where it originated, lab, market or other as I think everyone can pretty much agree it originated in China.

The epidemic began there, not sure it originated there.

[keith1879]

Not an excuse Keith, just an acceptance that picking faults with any strategy, without all the facts, is pointless.
The Times wrote a big article last week, about how Boris got it wrong in January. I didn't hear a word from them about him getting it wrong last January . Which would have been the time to point out his errors.
In time we may well look back and say we should have done this, or we should have done that, but not now. Unless you are wearing the governments boots on that particular day, with that particular advice, how can anyone say with honesty that it was screwed up.

I understand your argument...but where I differ from you is "without all the facts". If you reckon that you have to have "all the facts" to mount a critique then you can never mount the critique because you never will have all the facts....and even if you do you probably won't know. It's a classic way of deflecting criticism to argue for delay. I know what you mean about being wise after the event but did the Times have a reason to even investigate these matters at the end of January? And I would also say that "picking faults" is understating what is at stake here. When the dust settles one of the big issues will be whether the lockdown started soon enough....and a week's delay could have cost 10,000 lives I suspect.

[Grumps]

I understand your argument...but where I differ from you is "without all the facts". If you reckon that you have to have "all the facts" to mount a critique then you can never mount the critique because you never will have all the facts....and even if you do you probably won't know. It's a classic way of deflecting criticism to argue for delay. I know what you mean about being wise after the event but did the Times have a reason to even investigate these matters at the end of January? And I would also say that "picking faults" is understating what is at stake here. When the dust settles one of the big issues will be whether the lockdown started soon enough....and a week's delay could have cost 10,000 lives I suspect.

The lockdown has worked because the public accepted it was/is needed

Would they have accepted it in the same way a week earlier, when the number of deaths were?

[Taffy on the wing]

I stayed off here for a while but did read the poor excuses from so many why it's someone else's fault and I want to blame them, not today, but weeks ago because for years I have made it so very plain that I hate them and will blame them for every single thing that occurs. I realized weeks if not months ago it was pointless trying to rationalize anything or point out somethings might well be seen in a positive light because when you're a fanatic and believe in dogma, then truth is irrelevant because you're committed fanatically to your idea and your behavior reflects that.

As to your childish little belief it shouldn't matter one jot in regard to what I say regardless of gender but you seem to think it does and gleefully point it out at every little opportunity even when it is something not from me as evidenced above. Then to compound your claim to be the most obnoxious poster here (although it's close) you have the blatant cheek to call someone a loser, this after having previously posted before about others being insulting and bringing nothing to the discussion.

All I every see from you are insults and liking the licking of Andrew, Martin and Eddies backside when they post, because they have the intelligence to post thoughts and beliefs, which can be discussed and debated, where as you fail miserably every single time by some margin.

And since you're so fixated on gender I can tell you from my personal perspective you're not a man, not in a way shape or form, so just to clarify that you're definitely not a woman either.

Now hopefully we really know what each of us thinks of the other you will perhaps stop trying to stalk me, please.

I feel a little better getting that rant out and apologize to all the other posters for rudely interrupting what should be a thread regarding the virus.

Go and have a lie down!

[CombatClaret]

The lockdown has worked because the public accepted it was/is needed
Would they have accepted it in the same way a week earlier, when the number of deaths were?

It's not like there was European country that was a crystal ball into our potential future...

I am almost everyone I know had begun to lock ourselves down a week or two earlier because we could see it was needed, the government in it's infinite wisdom had other ideas.

[KateR]

I understand your argument...but where I differ from you is "without all the facts". If you reckon that you have to have "all the facts" to mount a critique then you can never mount the critique because you never will have all the facts....and even if you do you probably won't know. It's a classic way of deflecting criticism to argue for delay. I know what you mean about being wise after the event but did the Times have a reason to even investigate these matters at the end of January? And I would also say that "picking faults" is understating what is at stake here. When the dust settles one of the big issues will be whether the lockdown started soon enough....and a week's delay could have cost 10,000 lives I suspect.

Keith from my perspective there are numerous nuances that get's us to today but in terms of lockdown, if Germany had done it earlier they could have reduced the number of deaths also and therefore I totally agree doing the lock down earlier would have been very beneficial, no doubt, no argument from me. However if your medical and scientific advisors say something different you would be absolutely stupid to go against them and I don't believe the Gov. did.

Maybe the thought was similar to Sweden but as more data came in there was a change of advice and therefore the plan changed, if more people had listened at the beginning and stayed home and isolated we would have saved thousands of lives, but they didn't.

Maybe if the Chinese had shutdown all travel in and out sooner it would have saved a world pandemic

Maybe if WHO had called a Pandemic 2 months earlier many other countries would have closed down earlier and saved tens of thousands but they didn't

Why are "blacks" being touted as twice as likely to die as white people, what is the density population of London versus Milan/Madrid/Barcelona/Paris/New York & LA, what is the back population in those density areas to get a good comparison.

I don't know but think they are all valid questions and many more that need to be answered, so we can see the final outcome of what has and what has still to unfold, including how we all do during a phased release of lockdowns.

Yes there are simple statements that they could have and should have done better, that is a given, as within your example, they could/should have locked down earlier and stronger plus PPE should have been more readily available, a change to rolling out the testing program is another. To be honest I think one side is saying everything, absolutely everything is the Governments fault and BJ is the main culprit while some others are saying no, not everything, particularly since we don't know the facts yet. I also don't believe I have seen anyone say we should not have a full and open review with all the failures and mitigations to prevent it happening again, but some, including me, are saying now is not the time.

[Grumps]

It's not like there was European country that was a crystal ball into our potential future...

I am almost everyone I know had begun to lock ourselves down a week or two earlier because we could see it was needed, the government in it's infinite wisdom had other ideas.

Two weeks earlier? Now I know you tell porkies

[aggi]

Not entirely surpising that when people who aren't experts in the field try to "help out" it doesn't go too well
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -standards
It looks a pretty similar pattern to the "ventilator challenge". The "how hard can it be to sort this out" stance hasn't really paid off.

[martin_p]

The lockdown has worked because the public accepted it was/is needed

Would they have accepted it in the same way a week earlier, when the number of deaths were?

Absolutely they would. Everyone who could was already working from home.

[Grumps]

Absolutely they would. Everyone who could was already working from home.

9th March?
Everyone was at work, schools were open, pubs, shops.... All open, yet combat and all his mates were in lockdown.... Iforgive me if iam a little suspicious

[martin_p]

9th March?
Everyone was at work, schools were open, pubs, shops.... All open, yet combat and all his mates were in lockdown.... Iforgive me if iam a little suspicious

9th March is a bit more than a week earlier than 23rd March when the lockdown started.

[Devils_Advocate]

Maybe this should go on the doppelganger thread but sounds like the Govts PPE storeroom prior to Covid 19 was like a scene off Ramseys Kitchen Nightmares