Covid-19

[Grumps]

Regulations which are essentialy law state "no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse."
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/made

Since he left his place of living the burden of proof is now on him to provide reasonable excuse, a defense from the law is not the same an being exempt. It is his responsibility to be 100% forthcoming as to all his movements outside of his home and I hope the police investigation will shed some light.

But the government said its OK to not abide by any of those rules when children are involved.
I've posted the link twice, iam not doing it again
It's been read out enough on tv
It was read out on the daily briefing
If you chose to ignore it fine.

[nil_desperandum]

Well no not really, the point is nobody should have travelling anywhere, had the parents travelled south there would have been exposing themselves to the virus, the whole idea was nobody was supposed to move at all & stay put, no excuses really in his position & even arguing about it results in a deeper hole getting dug.

Well I agree, but I was responding to the post that said that there was NO ALTERNATIVE but for Cummings to travel north since there was absolutely no one else who could look after their autistic son.
My point was that even if that were to be actually true, and it were to be an absolute "life or death" emergency, then surely it would have been safer for the parents, (who were not ill with Covid) to travel south to the Cummings home rather than a sick couple with an autistic son to travel north. I didn't say that I approved of either journey, but i was highlighting how ridiculous the argument was that he had no alternative but to take his wife and child on such a long potentially dangerous journey.

[jackmiggins]

Damage has been done - trust in the government has been destroyed for many. Bojo must have ulterior motives - wonder what they are?

[CombatClaret]

If that investigation shows he acted within the law, can we call it a day?

If found he did break the law, he'll be sacked...... What the PM does then will be the next debate.

With this you are also skipping over the entire point of the governments very clear Stay At Home advise, the same that thousands of people who followed it in very similar circumstances to Cummings. The argument that he followed instincts, instincts millions of people have put to one side to Stay At Home
But if you can find the smallest legal loophole for you're man that's all that matters.
For most I think it is the moral hypocrisy that smacks the most over any argument over the terms 'best of your ability' or 'reasonable excuse'.

By focusing 100% on the legal aspect you try to distract from the moral.

[CombatClaret]

But the government said its OK to not abide by any of those rules when children are involved.
I've posted the link twice, iam not doing it again
It's been read out enough on tv
It was read out on the daily briefing
If you chose to ignore it fine.

No, you're referring to the Guidance which is just that.

"Keep following the Stay at home guidance for households with possible coronavirus to the best of your ability, however, we are aware that not all these measures will be possible."

What I posted was regulation, essentially law. You have to follow the guidance within the regulation.

The guidance provides no exemption from the law because you have children. That is why the police are investigating him.

[Zlatan]

But the government said its OK to not abide by any of those rules when children are involved.
I've posted the link twice, iam not doing it again
It's been read out enough on tv
It was read out on the daily briefing
If you chose to ignore it fine.

Please could you tell me whether the rules with children involved applied at the time of the “crime” or were they changed at a later date? Just asking because it’s all a bit of a blur - and I know that there was a change in relation to people with disabilities after the “crime”

[jackmiggins]

But the government said its OK to not abide by any of those rules when children are involved.
I've posted the link twice, iam not doing it again
It's been read out enough on tv
It was read out on the daily briefing
If you chose to ignore it fine.

Question is, was there a ‘reasonable excuse’? Doubt that very much.

[tiger76]

This isn't going to go away, unfortunately Boris has backed the wrong horse here in a 2 horse race.
The reluctance to answer any questions in a straight forward manner, as well as cutting off the person questioning before they could follow up on his answer, or lack of, shows Boris has lost it. Sadly, by supporting Cummins he's also losing the support of the country at a time when the government need to be strong, decisive and most importantly transparent and trustworthy.

For the record, I voted Tory at the election and sit here in disbelief to what I'm observing at number 10.

Couldn't have worded it better myself. If Dominic Cummings has done nothing wrong then why can't the PM and cabinet members address the allegations head on and explain his conduct.

Boris has just handed the next election to the Labour party.

Like you i voted Tory,but i definitely won't be next time,who i'll place my cross against i don't know but it won't be for this bunch of charlatans.

Strong, decisive ,transparent and trustworthy aren't adjectives which came to mind to describe this government,and yes they're rapidly losing the confidence of the nation at an important time.

If Dominic Cummings showed some humility and came out and explained why he had to make a 500 mile round trip with his symptomatic wife and child in the car,then he might garner sympathy,but his defensive nature and the attitude that he's done nothing wrong,well millions of others have strictly adhered to the guidance isn't helping his argument.

OH! and BTW i also voted for brexit before that argument rears it's head,brexit is irrelevant to this story it's about senior government officials setting an example,not doing as they please.

[CombatClaret]

Question is, was there a ‘reasonable excuse’? Doubt that very much.

And again once he leaves his home the burden of proof moves to him.

In my job I have to transport items which are essentially illegal for most people to own or transport in public. Due to my profession I have a defense again the law, that does not mean I am exempt.
Once I leave my home the burden of proof that I have 'reasonable excuse' to own or transport these items falls to me.

The exact same applies to Cummings, it is his job to prove 'reasonable excuse' but to do that he must provide all his movements beyond his home.

[Swizzlestick]

Couldn't have worded it better myself. If Dominic Cummings has done nothing wrong then why can't the PM and cabinet members address the allegations head on and explain his conduct.

Boris has just handed the next election to the Labour party.

Like you i voted Tory,but i definitely won't be next time,who i'll place my cross against i don't know but it won't be for this bunch of charlatans.

Strong, decisive ,transparent and trustworthy aren't adjectives which came to mind to describe this government,and yes they're rapidly losing the confidence of the nation at an important time.

If Dominic Cummings showed some humility and came out and explained why he had to make a 500 mile round trip with his symptomatic wife and child in the car,then he might garner sympathy,but his defensive nature and the attitude that he's done nothing wrong,well millions of others have strictly adhered to the guidance isn't helping his argument.

OH! and BTW i also voted for brexit before that argument rears it's head,brexit is irrelevant to this story it's about senior government officials setting an example,not doing as they please.

Exactly. No explanation from Johnson, nothing from Cummings. It stinks. Just give us the detail if it was legit, then we move on, the innuendo is quelled.

But they haven’t and they won’t. At such a critical juncture, where government integrity and transparency is crucial, it’s disgraceful.

[aggi]

Someone I know said this, I suspect it will be the sentiment of quite a few

My wife and I were both very unwell with COVID, at one point my wife was about to call 999 because I couldn't get up off the floor. We looked after our 2 year old with incredible difficulty because we were told to stay at home. My parents live just 30 minutes away, 10 miles maybe. If we could have just gone there and rested then maybe it wouldn't have taken weeks to recover. I have no right to be more ****** off than anyone else, but I am ******* livid.

[jackmiggins]

The legislation is quite clear - the lies are even clearer - abhorrent behaviour that is unforgivable, given the directions that have been imposed by these squirming worms.

[Grumps]

No, you're referring to the Guidance which is just that.

"Keep following the Stay at home guidance for households with possible coronavirus to the best of your ability, however, we are aware that not all these measures will be possible."

What I posted was regulation, essentially law. You have to follow the guidance within the regulation.

The guidance provides no exemption from the law because you have children. That is why the police are investigating him.

Let's see what the police say then

[CombatClaret]

Let's see what the police say then

And gloss over you have no idea what you're talking about despite 'watching it on TV, posting links etc'

[Devils_Advocate]

Good to see Tory MPs taking the concerns of their constituents seriously rather than just giving them a copy & paste job from Tory HQ

[Grumps]

Please could you tell me whether the rules with children involved applied at the time of the “crime” or were they changed at a later date? Just asking because it’s all a bit of a blur - and I know that there was a change in relation to people with disabilities after the “crime”

They were in place at the time.... According to the news items on various channels, according to the daily briefings and the newspapers. If they are all wrong, and they weren't in place then ok

[Grumps]

And gloss over you have no idea what you're talking about despite 'watching it on TV, posting links etc'

Because they will deal with the law, and if that law was broken far better than you and me arguing about it.

You really are very rude at times..... Added to block list

[tiger76]

Good to see Tory MPs taking the concerns of their constituents seriously rather than just giving them a copy & paste job from Tory HQ

Hmm! that's not a good look,are they all MP'S I've only heard of 2 out of the 4,guess they're maybe some of the new intake,and they're not well known yet.

[jackmiggins]

Had a think about this and must apologise - realised that government legislation doesn’t apply to Weasels. Looks like this will let IT off the hook??

[CombatClaret]

Because they will deal with the law, and if that law was broken far better than you and me arguing about it.

You really are very rude at times..... Added to block list

Because in all this you had no idea about the difference between Guidance and Law and thought the Government said because you have children you can break the law. How can I argue with you about the law If you don't understand what it is?
Block me for showing you up, fine, not once did I personally insult you. I simply pointed out you what you were saying was untrue and that you did not understand the things you were saying.

Snowflakes eh...

[jackmiggins]

Because they will deal with the law, and if that law was broken far better than you and me arguing about it.

You really are very rude at times..... Added to block list

Have you actually read and understood the legislation?

[Bordeauxclaret]

Cummings to face the press.
From his reputation there is potential for this to go very badly.

[Lord Beamish]

It seems an amendment in the guidance referring to children with learning disabilities was added, but only after Cummings and his Wife had made their “mercy dash” up the A1. Just speculation, but maybe this was because they had realised that they’d been spotted 250 miles away from their London home?

[CombatClaret]

Have you actually read and understood the legislation?

I posted them for him, but he said.

The government said its OK to not abide by any of those rules when children are involved.

For example
7. During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people except... yada yada

So I assume I can have 50 people invited from around the world come for a BBQ, if one brings a child.

[CombatClaret]

Cummings to face the press.
From his reputation there is potential for this to go very badly.

He will have a very scripted speech, think of the (autistic) children, fathers love etc etc.

Questions will be trickier, but he's been told go out there and look sorry as f**k. Basically don't be yourself.

[TVC15]

Good to see Tory MPs taking the concerns of their constituents seriously rather than just giving them a copy & paste job from Tory HQ

So DC and his cronies have sent an email out to all their MPs about how to respond to questions / complaints about DC and the best they can muster is to cut and paste from the advice - or actually get their minions to cut and paste. Goebbels would be so proud at the efficiency of the propaganda machine working overtime.

[Zlatan]

So DC and his cronies have sent an email out to all their MPs about how to respond to questions / complaints about DC and the best they can muster is to cut and paste from the advice - or actually get their minions to cut and paste. Goebbels would be so proud at the efficiency of the propaganda machine working overtime.

Careful, you can’t go around highlighting similarities with the Nazi’s however accurate they may be as similarities.

[tiger76]

He will have a very scripted speech, think of the (autistic) children, fathers love etc etc.

Questions will be trickier, but he's been told go out there and look sorry as f**k. Basically don't be yourself.

Carries risk in itself if his sincerity comes across as fake.

Downing Street had no choice but for Cummings to front up,but after BJ'S display yesterday there's definitely potential for fireworks here.

The basic problem is this should have happened 3/4 days ago,now it looks manufactured by CCHQ.

[TVC15]

Careful, you can’t go around highlighting similarities with the Nazi’s however accurate they may be as similarities.

I studied history and I am simply referring to one of the most efficient and infamous propaganda machines in the last century.
Orders must be obeyed
Don’t think for yourself
3 line whips
At odds with the rest of Europe

It’s almost uncanny !

[Lord Rothbury]

Careful, you can’t go around highlighting similarities with the Nazi’s however accurate they may be as similarities.

I await the UK version of "kristallnacht"

Do you lot ever give it a rest?

[dsr]

Someone I know said this, I suspect it will be the sentiment of quite a few

My wife and I were both very unwell with COVID, at one point my wife was about to call 999 because I couldn't get up off the floor. We looked after our 2 year old with incredible difficulty because we were told to stay at home. My parents live just 30 minutes away, 10 miles maybe. If we could have just gone there and rested then maybe it wouldn't have taken weeks to recover. I have no right to be more ****** off than anyone else, but I am ******* livid.

They should have gone to their parents. Staying at home because they didn't want to risk harming their parents, fair enough; staying at home because they think that the guidelines are more important than life itself, that's taking it too far.

[dsr]

I studied history and I am simply referring to one of the most efficient and infamous propaganda machines in the last century.
Orders must be obeyed
Don’t think for yourself
3 line whips
At odds with the rest of Europe

It’s almost uncanny !

Does that mean you approve of Cummings using initiative? I thought you were of the "orders must be obeyed" camp.

[LoveCurryPies]

Weston-super-Mare Hospital (Somerset) has so many new coronavirus patients it’s had to close A&E.

Beach there was packed 5 days ago.

[Pimlico_Claret]

He will have a very scripted speech, think of the (autistic) children, fathers love etc etc.

Questions will be trickier, but he's been told go out there and look sorry as f**k. Basically don't be yourself.

For the older ones amongst us, maybe he'll get his son to eat a burger.

[keith1879]

Ah yes....she was called Cordelia .....what a name to saddle a child with.

[dsr]

And again once he leaves his home the burden of proof moves to him.

...

The exact same applies to Cummings, it is his job to prove 'reasonable excuse' but to do that he must provide all his movements beyond his home.

I suspect you might be wrong there. If you leave the house during lockdown, and your defence is that you were exercising, do you have to prove that you were exercising? Or if your defence is that you were buying food but you can't produce a receipt, will you be found guilty by default?

[CrosspoolClarets]

You're going to be amazed when you find out about this Jeremy Corbyn bloke.

The difference between Corbyn and Cummings is that the latter is hated by much of the spectrum - all of the left, all Remainers, many Brexiteers and much of the right. Take Steve Baker’s vitriol yesterday as an example.

Much of that dislike is deserved.

I’m witnessing people losing all perspective this weekend though. I would humbly suggest that if this was, say, Sir Patrick Vallance, in identical circumstances, a person with similar responsibility to follow the rules, he would have been forgiven due to doing it for the welfare of his vulnerable child. Probably a bad decision made under duress, but it would have been forgiven. That’s the hate I refer to.

[TVC15]

Does that mean you approve of Cummings using initiative? I thought you were of the "orders must be obeyed" camp.

Are you talking about invading Europe and killing millions of people or telling your MPs to follow the party line or they will be sacked ?
I don’t approve of either.

However I am generally in favour of the laws of the land being obeyed.

How about you DSR ?

You in favour of orders being followed even if they are to support a lie ?
I’m just talking generally btw...nothing to do with Cummings since that’s what you are doing in your inimitable trying (and failing again) to be clever

[CrosspoolClarets]

Someone I know said this, I suspect it will be the sentiment of quite a few

My wife and I were both very unwell with COVID, at one point my wife was about to call 999 because I couldn't get up off the floor. We looked after our 2 year old with incredible difficulty because we were told to stay at home. My parents live just 30 minutes away, 10 miles maybe. If we could have just gone there and rested then maybe it wouldn't have taken weeks to recover. I have no right to be more ****** off than anyone else, but I am ******* livid.

With respect Aggi that person is stupid.

If someone needed 999, and the other person was “very unwell” at the time, the law clearly allows them to take steps to protect their child, their top responsibility. I think the government were wrong not to make this clearer at the time, but nobody in our country follows the law with such subservience, we all try to interpret it as fairly as we can. That can’t be a reason to sack someone from their job, especially someone who at the time was trying to help protect 70 million people and was under massive strain.

[FactualFrank]

Questions will be trickier, but he's been told go out there and look sorry as f**k. Basically don't be yourself.

Not sure there will be any questions. It might just be a statement, and then off he trots.

[dsr]

Are you talking about invading Europe and killing millions of people or telling your MPs to follow the party line or they will be sacked ?
I don’t approve of either.

However I am generally in favour of the laws of the land being obeyed.

How about you DSR ?

You in favour of orders being followed even if they are to support a lie ?
I’m just talking generally btw...nothing to do with Cummings since that’s what you are doing in your inimitable trying (and failing again) to be clever

Yes, I am generally in favour of the laws of the land being obeyed.

Not to the extent that the law will show no mercy to any offender whatever the reason, though. There are circumstances where the it is right to disobey the law and I would not condemn the person who does.

[Grumps]

Not sure there will be any questions. It might just be a statement, and then off he trots.

It's says on the news there will be questions

[tiger76]

Meanwhile in the real world some parents can't see their children for weeks.

Emotional homecoming for power worker

In the UK, National Grid workers have been sleeping in pods at work for six weeks at a time to keep the country's power going during the pandemic.

Staying on site helps minimise the risk of them falling ill.

For Chris Jarvis from Rugby, in Warwickshire, it meant being separated from his wife and two young sons.

But this family tolerated the loss of family life as they understood the need for the country to function,now if they and thousands of others could we couldn't the PM'S top aide.

BTW at the last count there was 19 Conservative MP'S calling for Cummings to go,you know those people we actually elected to run the country,not some jumped up appointee who's accountable to nobody.

[Pimlico_Claret]

Ah yes....she was called Cordelia .....what a name to saddle a child with.

Only slightly worse than saddling her with BSE.

[FactualFrank]

It's says on the news there will be questions

Better get the popcorn ready then.

[Devils_Advocate]

A potential side story to watch out for over the next couple of days could be around who is Alice Cummings - other than simply just the child care specialist

Looks like she is a director if IDOX the company running the new CV-19 Track & Trace App and the timing of deciding to give IDOX this contract might have been around the beginning of April

IDOX were also controversially the recipient of £1.7m govt contract for management of the postal votes system.

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/01/07/why- ... -election/

[dsr]

Only slightly worse than saddling her with BSE.

He was actually right - you couldn't catch BSE from eating burgers.

[keith1879]

With respect Aggi that person is stupid.

If someone needed 999, and the other person was “very unwell” at the time, the law clearly allows them to take steps to protect their child, their top responsibility. I think the government were wrong not to make this clearer at the time, but nobody in our country follows the law with such subservience, we all try to interpret it as fairly as we can. That can’t be a reason to sack someone from their job, especially someone who at the time was trying to help protect 70 million people and was under massive strain.

This is probably the most classic example of the use of "with respect" to signal a compllete lack of respect that I have ever seen. So someone struggling with illness and a desire to do their duty is stupid. Brilliant.

[Spijed]

Better get the popcorn ready then.

Trouble is, every question they think will be asked will have a rehearsed answer.

[Pimlico_Claret]

He was actually right - you couldn't catch BSE from eating burgers.

It wasn't 100% proved safe at the time. His statement regarding this stunt is very interesting-
" I sought to make the best choice, the best decision I could for the safety and health of myself, my family and my country". Rings a bell.