Covid-19
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Re: Covid-19
I wish we had a competent leader like Jacinda Ardern, instead of the bumbling liar. Didn't help matters when the main opposition wasn't credible or electable to the wider population.
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Re: Covid-19
OK! i'll edit my posts thanks.,Didn't mean to intrude on any conversations sorry.CombatClaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:16 pmTiger can you just post a headline and a link which people can chose to read please? Cut and pasting large chunks takes up a lot of page real estate and breaks up discussion. Fine if it's in reply to some one about a specific item but there's already news feeds out there.
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Re: Covid-19
Hello Darren !Billy Balfour wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:23 pmI wish we had a competent leader like Jacinda Ardern, instead of the bumbling liar. Didn't help matters when the main opposition wasn't credible or electable to the wider population.
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Re: Covid-19
Last Night on Question Time MP James Cleverly said
"We now have a testing system which tests huge numbers of people on a daily basis, hundreds of thousands of people."
As of May 20th data shows we've never tested 100k people in one day. Numbers for the last month have been 'unavailable'...
"We now have a testing system which tests huge numbers of people on a daily basis, hundreds of thousands of people."
As of May 20th data shows we've never tested 100k people in one day. Numbers for the last month have been 'unavailable'...
Re: Covid-19
He could always move there and do us all a favour.
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Re: Covid-19
This whole testing regime's a farce, and has been from day 1, even now we don't have a viable test & trace strategy, hence why many people are falling through the cracks, and still potentially spreading the virus unknowingly, and despite this the lockdown is slowly being loosened, and now the alert level has been reduced again, if the government get away with this, it'll be down to luck rather than judgement.CombatClaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:50 pmLast Night on Question Time MP James Cleverly said
"We now have a testing system which tests huge numbers of people on a daily basis, hundreds of thousands of people."
As of May 20th data shows we've never tested 100k people in one day. Numbers for the last month have been 'unavailable'...
Re: Covid-19
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/ ... 73916.html
More potential treatments coming on board.
More potential treatments coming on board.
Re: Covid-19
Has there been any explanation why there are only MPs at the briefings now? I must have missed it when it first happened and the reason was given but it seems a strange change.
Re: Covid-19
The CMO was there earlier this week
Not a lot for them to say when it's all about culture and sport as it was Wednesday, it was track and trace yesterday and the person leading that was there so not much they could have added, let's see who rocks up today.
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Re: Covid-19
When asked Dominic Raab said scientific and medical experts had “a huge amount of other work to do” and when pressed replied "Well, you haven't tried me on a question I can't answer yet".
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Re: Covid-19
Should ask him if he's read that Russia report. Because he sure couldn't answer that one the other day.CombatClaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:00 pm..when pressed replied "Well, you haven't tried me on a question I can't answer yet".
Re: Covid-19
Politicians seem to have a different definition of what answering a question means. If they’re asked a question and the talk for a bit they considered the question answered whether what they said was relevant or not.NottsClaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:04 pmShould ask him if he's read that Russia report. Because he sure couldn't answer that one the other day.
Re: Covid-19
So no real reason. As you say, I guess we'll see who else is on. I'm sure the few I've flicked on it was just one politician.
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Re: Covid-19
One of the government ministers said that the scientists are very busy at the moment but they will be making appearances on an ad-hoc basis.
Re: Covid-19
I heard that but I assume they've been very busy for quite a while now so it didn't seem like a great reason.UnderSeige wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:28 pmOne of the government ministers said that the scientists are very busy at the moment but they will be making appearances on an ad-hoc basis.
Re: Covid-19
Interesting graphs from the US
Not sure why the discrepancy in the starting point. Wonder whether it was under-reporting or the demographics of those areas or something else. (Edit: It seems New York was the main cause for this)
Not sure why the discrepancy in the starting point. Wonder whether it was under-reporting or the demographics of those areas or something else. (Edit: It seems New York was the main cause for this)
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Re: Covid-19
I don't think I've seen a more cringeworthy Daily Briefing than the one just given by Gavin Williamson. He hardly answered a question, and yes I know it's what politicians do all the time, but this was a whole new ballgame and all delivered with the false sincerity of a dodgy vicar preaching from the pulpit. How this man has risen to one of the highest offices in the land is totally beyond me.
Re: Covid-19
Johnson sets out a desire to get all kids back in school full time come September, echoed (I think) by the utterly appalling Williamson.
Good news and let's hope it doesn't become yet another plan that can't be delivered.
Good news and let's hope it doesn't become yet another plan that can't be delivered.
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Re: Covid-19
I got this wrong earlier. The German App is compatible with Apple. It was discussed on the Jeremy Vine show at lunchtime.UnderSeige wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:34 amIt looks like it solves the 'Data Protection Issue'. It also looks better than anything else the West has at the moment. But it looks likely that it will run into the same 'compatibility issues' with Apple as the 'world beating failed NHS app'. Around 50% of UK users have Apple phones.
I think that the government should get a team of developers to make use of it and develop and test it asap. They can continue to work on the new 'World beating NHS/Apple/Google App' to be released later if they insist on 'reinventing the wheel' but this German App could be available a lot earlier.
The German App certainly beats the 'world beating disastrously failed 'waste of time space and taxpayers money' 'good for nothing' useless NHS app'. The last I heard they were taking it to the tip.
Re: Covid-19
Depends of your point of viewBilly Balfour wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:42 pmI don't think I've seen a more cringeworthy Daily Briefing than the one just given by Gavin Williamson. He hardly answered a question, and yes I know it's what politicians do all the time, but this was a whole new ballgame and all delivered with the false sincerity of a dodgy vicar preaching from the pulpit. How this man has risen to one of the highest offices in the land is totally beyond me.
I thought he did OK, especially putting the guy from sky in his place..
Re: Covid-19
You do realise that every piece of tech you use will have been tested, many will have failed and been reinvented, some will have fallen by the wayside. The difference is they would be tested privately, without the glare of the public and media. Unfortunately the government couldn't do that in this case. Better to try and fail, than not try.UnderSeige wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:54 pmI
The German App certainly beats the 'world beating disastrously failed 'waste of time space and taxpayers money' 'good for nothing' useless NHS app'. The last I heard they were taking it to the tip.
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Re: Covid-19
I suppose when the developer claims that it will be world beating the least you would expect is for it to actually work.Grumps wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:00 pmYou do realise that every piece of tech you use will have been tested, many will have failed and been reinvented, some will have fallen by the wayside. The difference is they would be tested privately, without the glare of the public and media. Unfortunately the government couldn't do that in this case. Better to try and fail, than not try.
Re: Covid-19
With more time, which we don't have, it might have been, some products are in development and testing for years, and perhaps were crap after 2 months, but had the time to put it right.
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Re: Covid-19
I’m pretty sure the government knew how much time they had to make this app world beating. It’s another in a rapidly growing list of failures.
Re: Covid-19
Iam sure they did know how much time they had, but the bloomin thing still had to be tested. Or should we just have let everyone download it, then get false results?
I hope all the vaccines that are being tested all work 100% for everyone, otherwise it will give people another reason to criticise the government for trying to get things to help the fight.
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Re: Covid-19
If you’re unwilling or unable to see the blatant failings with this app then there’s no point discussing it with me further.Grumps wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:19 pmIam sure they did know how much time they had, but the bloomin thing still had to be tested. Or should we just have let everyone download it, then get false results?
I hope all the vaccines that are being tested all work 100% for everyone, otherwise it will give people another reason to criticise the government for trying to get things to help the fight.
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Re: Covid-19
Except lots of other countries and companies have made successful apps.Grumps wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:19 pmIam sure they did know how much time they had, but the bloomin thing still had to be tested. Or should we just have let everyone download it, then get false results?
I hope all the vaccines that are being tested all work 100% for everyone, otherwise it will give people another reason to criticise the government for trying to get things to help the fight.
Instead of going with something tried and tested we paid £millions to Cummings's mate to cock it up and put us back a month or so.
Re: Covid-19
Of course I can see the failings with the app... It failed testing.
Are you annoyed that we tested it,and it failed, or that someone said it would be world beating,but it wasn't?
Re: Covid-19
Do we know those apps work in this country or will they need testing?CombatClaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:25 pmExcept lots of other countries and companies have made successful apps.
Instead of going with something tried and tested we paid £millions to Cummings's mate to cock it up and put us back a month or so.
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Re: Covid-19
I’m not annoyed in the slightest, I’m just calling things as I see them. And as I see things we could have used the expertise of other nations and technology companies. And we could have not made a big song and dance about how world beating our app would be. As it stands the government look stupid and we don’t have an app.
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Re: Covid-19
Cleverly said on QT yesterday the other apps wouldnt need testing here because they could observe how they have worked in other countrys
If you want to suggest Tory MP James Cleverly was talking rubbish though then we might just agree on something
Re: Covid-19
If the apps need to interact with NHS systems they will certainly require testing.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:42 pmCleverly said on QT yesterday the other apps wouldnt need testing here because they could observe how they have worked in other countrys
If you want to suggest Tory MP James Cleverly was talking rubbish though then we might just agree on something
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Re: Covid-19
Hi Grumps. You are correct about testing. With any application there is a whole development lifecycle:
- Gathering of user/business requirements.
- Analysis and Design
- Development(programming)
- Unit Testing
- System Testing
- User Testing
- Operational Review
- Implementation
Often the manager needs to explain what can and can't be achieved within a 'limited timescale'. A compromise is then reached and the project is started. Failure to do this results in a rushed program that doesn't work.
In the case of the 'track and trace app' the government were too ambitious. Trying to integrate different systems into one App (Apple, Google, Huawei) can be very difficult and time consuming. Why this wasn't communicated to them is beyond me especially since lives and the UK economy are at stake.
In my experience, there is a vast difference between taking an 'off the peg application' such as the German App and trying to develop 'something from scratch'. Developing something from scratch requires time and all of the stages above to be carried out. Taking the 'off the peg option' enables you to start the project at the 'User Testing' stage. Little development should be required. Most of the systems have already been integrated for you.
If the government want to develop something from scratch then fine but we need something up and running yesterday. We could run with the German (or Singapore) App for now and then switch to the 'World beating App' at some stage in the future when it is ready. At the moment 'time is not on our side'.
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Re: Covid-19
If you’re on about interfacing with other applications such as anything the NHS has I am certain the data flow would be from the app only and not from any NHS systems, thus negating any fears of data loss - which is what I think you may be getting at.
The point is that there is already a fully functioning track and trace system using Apple and Google API’s that needed at a minimum just translating to English, and a few servers for the app to interface with, but our government insisted on bullshitting people with phrases such as “world beating” etc for something that wasn’t even designed yet. The nearest analogy I can think of at the moment is a game developer promising a “world beating” road racing game to rival Forza on XBox and ending up with bloody Frogger on a Spectrum (that doesn’t work, or do what it said it would)
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Re: Covid-19
Depends what you mean by testing. If we are talking about some minor functional integration testing then Im sure there would be some basic testing carried out
If youre talking about testing as in how we have tested the NHSX app on the Isle of White and in the context of this discussion then no it would not need that level of testing as the technology is already in production and proven
Last edited by Devils_Advocate on Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Covid-19
We don't want the App to interact with the NHS system. The 'World beating abondoned NHS App' stored data on a central database. Data could then be used for other purposes. This is in breach of the Data Protection Act. Also Apple and Google will not want their customers data to be stored in such a way. Hence the lack of cooperation from them.
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Re: Covid-19
I took him to mean some testing around how its integrated to the manual Track and Trace systems and process. In that case im sure some basic testing would take place.UnderSeige wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:21 pmWe don't want the App to interact with the NHS system. The 'World beating abondoned NHS App' stored data on a central database. Data could then be used for other purposes. This is in breach of the Data Protection Act. Also Apple and Google will not want their customers data to be stored in such a way. Hence the lack of cooperation from them.
This is completely different to the level of testing and trailing we had to do on the Isle of Wight which we needed to do because we decided to make our own bespoke app
Re: Covid-19
It wasn't data loss I was referring to. NHS systems are notoriously bad at talking to each other, never mind something from the outsideZlatan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:18 pmIf you’re on about interfacing with other applications such as anything the NHS has I am certain the data flow would be from the app only and not from any NHS systems, thus negating any fears of data loss - which is what I think you may be getting at.
The point is that there is already a fully functioning track and trace system using Apple and Google API’s that needed at a minimum just translating to English, and a few servers for the app to interface with, but our government insisted on bullshitting people with phrases such as “world beating” etc for something that wasn’t even designed yet. The nearest analogy I can think of at the moment is a game developer promising a “world beating” road racing game to rival Forza on XBox and ending up with bloody Frogger on a Spectrum (that doesn’t work, or do what it said it would)
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Re: Covid-19
The real disgrace about this is that plenty of experts back in April advised that the solution with wouldn't work unless Apple gave them backend access to their code which they dont give anyoneZlatan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:18 pmIf you’re on about interfacing with other applications such as anything the NHS has I am certain the data flow would be from the app only and not from any NHS systems, thus negating any fears of data loss - which is what I think you may be getting at.
The point is that there is already a fully functioning track and trace system using Apple and Google API’s that needed at a minimum just translating to English, and a few servers for the app to interface with, but our government insisted on bullshitting people with phrases such as “world beating” etc for something that wasn’t even designed yet. The nearest analogy I can think of at the moment is a game developer promising a “world beating” road racing game to rival Forza on XBox and ending up with bloody Frogger on a Spectrum (that doesn’t work, or do what it said it would)
They also called out the issues around data breach and the challenges of getting a bespoke app up and running so quickly
The view at the time was there seemed only two explainable reasons why they wanted to go down the NHSX route
- One was because it enabled the govt to harvest our data
- The other was because it gave a lucrative contract to the Johnson and Cummings mates
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Re: Covid-19
I’m aware, I’m in IT and used to work for the NHS - in all honesty the technical aspects are really quite easy, the difficulties were (and probably still are) that those making decisions didn’t understand or comprehend what IT was doing and that’s what holds up progress - people who don’t understand data trying to micro manage an IT project. More often than not, as mentioned in another post above, the scope (goal posts) would change frequently as more people want(ed) more options instead of sticking to the original scope.
Re: Coronavirus
Lowbank put this on in early February, how many lives would have been saved, how many people wouldn't now be living with chronic lung conditions, how many less mourners would there have been, how many less children pining for a mum,dad or grandparent, how many less burnt out NHS staff would there be if the totally inept and corrupt Johnson regime had of followed the advice on a football message board of all things A FOOTBALL MESSAGE BOARD FFS !! . Their Cummings led herd immunity approach must surely be used against them in any public enquiry and under health and safety legislation could corporate manslaughter be considered.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:55 pmFirstly ban all flights from China Japan and Singapore .
Instead of not releasing the names of people infected, release the name and movements and anyone who knows they came into contact with them to isolate themselves.
The man from Singapore, was out and about for 4 days before going to hospital.
The person who came back from France to London, do not know how long he was about before being diagnosed.
I hope I am wrong but I fear in two weeks time the number of cases in the UK will start to climb.
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Re: Covid-19
That brings back memories.Zlatan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:51 pmI’m aware, I’m in IT and used to work for the NHS - in all honesty the technical aspects are really quite easy, the difficulties were (and probably still are) that those making decisions didn’t understand or comprehend what IT was doing and that’s what holds up progress - people who don’t understand data trying to micro manage an IT project. More often than not, as mentioned in another post above, the scope (goal posts) would change frequently as more people want(ed) more options instead of sticking to the original scope.
Can we just have this? Can we just have that? Can we just have bells and bobs on it with a cherry on top? Is there a button that we press that solves all of the worlds problems?
We just require complete flexibility.
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Re: Covid-19
Spoken like someone who knowsUnderSeige wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:23 pmThat brings back memories.
Can we just have this? Can we just have that? Can we just have bells and bobs on it with a cherry on top? Is there a button that we press that solves all of the worlds problems?
We just require complete flexibility.
Re: Coronavirus
Steady on we don't know how many will die through depression , cancer and poverty yet.bfcjg wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:57 pmLowbank put this on in early February, how many lives would have been saved, how many people wouldn't now be living with chronic lung conditions, how many less mourners would there have been, how many less children pining for a mum,dad or grandparent, how many less burnt out NHS staff would there be if the totally inept and corrupt Johnson regime had of followed the advice on a football message board of all things A FOOTBALL MESSAGE BOARD FFS !! . Their Cummings led herd immunity approach must surely be used against them in any public enquiry and under health and safety legislation could corporate manslaughter be considered.
It's a balance.
Re: Covid-19
I do wonder what the role of the Civil Service and the PHE was in this. Were they staffed with experts who said it could be done, Mr. Hancock, we will do it? Or with experts who said don't do it, Mr. Hancock, we can't do this and it will be rubbish? Or with a total lack of experts who told Mr. Hancock that he was on his own because they're unable to help?
Hancock may well be incompetent. But he is certainly backed up by a lorry load of incompetence behind him. Can you imagine the Army making such a botch of things in any sort of field, regardless of what a wally the Armed Forces minister may be? No, because the Army is competent. This crisis has shown us what a load of overpaid uselessness we have in the upper echelons of this country - civil servants as well as ministers.
Hancock may well be incompetent. But he is certainly backed up by a lorry load of incompetence behind him. Can you imagine the Army making such a botch of things in any sort of field, regardless of what a wally the Armed Forces minister may be? No, because the Army is competent. This crisis has shown us what a load of overpaid uselessness we have in the upper echelons of this country - civil servants as well as ministers.
Re: Covid-19
Such a huge quantity of bullsh1t from the government. The app is said to be really important and “world beating” - whatever that means - and now the app is no longer important? Okay, it doesn’t work, but having an app isn’t important why, when we’re unraveling lockdown? It makes no sense at all. Hancock claims we’ve always been looking at two apps, but that goes against what they said, and if we were, why haven’t we got it in testing already? It’s just nonsense.
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Re: Covid-19
It has to send the info to NHS who then process it, and send out the warnings to people, again Via the app, so there has to be some integration somehow
They also said if the result came back positive you would be able to book a test via the app, that would also need integration with NHS systems.
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Re: Coronavirus
Back then I was arguing we should try to contain it in the small areas of the world it was in. Hindsight is now telling us it was possibly already here.bfcjg wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:57 pmLowbank put this on in early February, how many lives would have been saved, how many people wouldn't now be living with chronic lung conditions, how many less mourners would there have been, how many less children pining for a mum,dad or grandparent, how many less burnt out NHS staff would there be if the totally inept and corrupt Johnson regime had of followed the advice on a football message board of all things A FOOTBALL MESSAGE BOARD FFS !! . Their Cummings led herd immunity approach must surely be used against them in any public enquiry and under health and safety legislation could corporate manslaughter be considered.
I think we could have slowed it’s spread around The world by stopping flights from affected areas, by not eveN trying we lost a lot of people Unnecessarily.
Now the economic impact starts, governments are spending trillions Propping up the stock markets. Money that will have to be paid back by higher taxes or even greater austerity than after the bankers threw us under a bus. But to pay those taxes you will need a job, wages will be lower, taxes higher. It’s going to get tough on those with jobs.
It will not be me though, my jobs goes next month along with 25% of my colleagues.
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Re: Coronavirus
Sorry to hear about job Lowbank.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:51 amBack then I was arguing we should try to contain it in the small areas of the world it was in. Hindsight is now telling us it was possibly already here.
I think we could have slowed it’s spread around The world by stopping flights from affected areas, by not eveN trying we lost a lot of people Unnecessarily.
Now the economic impact starts, governments are spending trillions Propping up the stock markets. Money that will have to be paid back by higher taxes or even greater austerity than after the bankers threw us under a bus. But to pay those taxes you will need a job, wages will be lower, taxes higher. It’s going to get tough on those with jobs.
It will not be me though, my jobs goes next month along with 25% of my colleagues.
Agree its going to be a tough time for most people.
With your foresight you have been a leading light on this thread.