Covid-19

[Billy Balfour]

Scotland to bring in compulsory mask wearing in shops or else a £60 fine. I hope we do the same here in England. Not only will it help with the fight against the virus, but it may also get more people out shopping if they feel safer, especially older folk.

[dsr]

Scotland to bring in compulsory mask wearing in shops or else a £60 fine. I hope we do the same here in England. Not only will it help with the fight against the virus, but it may also get more people out shopping if they feel safer, especially older folk.

That'll upset the staff. Virtually none of Sainsbury's Colne, for example, wear masks in the store.

[Billy Balfour]

Well that's their lookout. I might be wrong, but I think it would be a boon to the highstreet, especially the smaller independent shops.

[UnderSeige]

Well that's their lookout. I might be wrong, but I think it would be a boon to the highstreet, especially the smaller independent shops.

You are 100% correct. Simple mask wearing has enabled several economies in Asia to keep going despite the virus. It has been the key, along with track and trace, to getting out of lockdown since May.

[mkmel]

Here in the Philippines wearing of face masks is compulsory wherever you go once out of your home.

1000 pesos ( c £16 ) fine, which is quite a lot of money for many Filipinos, if you do not wear a face mask while you are out. This has been in operation since about March and maybe it is one of the reasons why the death toll here atm is about 1300 even with a population almost twice the size of the UK

[UnderSeige]

Here in the Philippines wearing of face masks is compulsory wherever you go once out of your home.

1000 pesos ( c £16 ) fine, which is quite a lot of money for many Filipinos, if you do not wear a face mask while you are out. This has been in operation since about March and maybe it is one of the reasons why the death toll here atm is about 1300 even with a population almost twice the size of the UK

Wow! Burnley fans in the Philippines. Would you like to swap governments?

[summitclaret]

Well that's their lookout. I might be wrong, but I think it would be a boon to the highstreet, especially the smaller independent shops.

On the other hand it could stop people from going that just might have gone, because I think many people just don't want to be seen out wearing masks. So will just not go inside anywhere but home. It's a dilemma for the Government.

[Paul Waine]

On the other hand it could stop people from going that just might have gone, because I think many people just don't want to be seen out wearing masks. So will just not go inside anywhere but home. It's a dilemma for the Government.

Hmm, summit.... but, if you are wearing a mask who will see that it's you....

[mkmel]

Wow! Burnley fans in the Philippines. Would you like to swap governments?

I am here in the Philippines with my Fiancee where we are still under lockdown with no international commercial flights in or out of Manila for about 3/4 months now.

And yes atm I feel safer here under the strict President Duterte's government than I would under Johnson's

[UnderSeige]

Coronavirus: Wear masks in crowded public spaces, says science body

Everyone should carry a face covering when they leave home in order to tackle coronavirus, the head of the UK's national academy of science has said.

Prof Sir Venki Ramakrishnan, president of the Royal Society, said the coverings should then be worn "whenever you are in crowded public spaces".

He said evidence shows they protect the wearer and those nearby, and the UK was "way behind" other countries in usage.

Speaking as the Royal Society published two reports on face coverings, Prof Ramakrishnan said the public remained "sceptical" about their benefits because "the message has not been clear enough" and guidelines have been inconsistent.

He added: "What we would like for the government is to be a bit stronger and clearer about the messaging and require it whenever you are in crowded public spaces where you cannot get more than two metres away from the next person. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53316491

[Devils_Advocate]

[UnderSeige]

Today I have seen two people wearing masks whilst driving cars. I've seen this before. Is it to prevent virus spread from fellow passengers or something? In one of the cars the driver was the only person in the car!

At the match the camera swung round on some ex West Ham legend who was sat in the stand (I think it was Trevor Brooking). He was sat with the the top of the mask on his bottom lip.

Karen Brady took the prize though. She was sat there with the mask hanging off one ear down the side of her face. She was also biting her nails or picking her teeth or something similar.

[bfcjg]

I still think they want some form of herd immunity hence patchy advice re masks. Younger people congregate more and they are the ones more reluctant to wear masks.

[UnderSeige]

I think that just about sums it up.

[UnderSeige]

I still think they want some form of herd immunity hence patchy advice re masks. Younger people congregate more and they are the ones more reluctant to wear masks.

'Stealth Herd Immunity' has crossed my mind a time or two.

[bfcjg]

Countries in the far east with much lower death rates then us but who also have densely populated areas think we are insane for not making them compulsory.

[UnderSeige]

Still no sign of a second spike in Europe. Given that they released from lockdown earlier than us, if they are going to have a second spike in the summer, you would expect cases to be rising by now. Also in the UK by the end of the month.

[UnderSeige]

Countries in the far east with much lower death rates then us but who also have densely populated areas think we are insane for not making them compulsory.

They are not far wrong. It's one of the most bizarre aspects of the UK governments handling of the pandemic.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Coronavirus: Wear masks in crowded public spaces, says science body

The problem here is the message right from the start was DONT WEAR A MASK - EVEN A HOME MADE ONE!

Everyone knew that was going to change. Low and behold it did.

[cricketfieldclarets]

I still think they want some form of herd immunity hence patchy advice re masks. Younger people congregate more and they are the ones more reluctant to wear masks.

Its pretty obvious they do.

[Zlatan]

The problem here is the message right from the start was DONT WEAR A MASK - EVEN A HOME MADE ONE!

Everyone knew that was going to change. Low and behold it did.

I hate being smug, but here's my post from 7th Feb on here... We've been around the houses a few times on many things, but that was my first contribution on this thread and I still stand by that.

face masks are not intended to protect the wearer, they are intended to prevent the wearer spreading germs - i.e. they prevent the spread not protect the wearer.

[cricketfieldclarets]

I hate being smug, but here's my post from 7th Feb on here... We've been around the houses a few times on many things, but that was my first contribution on this thread and I still stand by that.

Absolutely - its the inconsistency on this message that has undermined it.

[cricketfieldclarets]

[UnderSeige]

I hate being smug, but here's my post from 7th Feb on here... We've been around the houses a few times on many things, but that was my first contribution on this thread and I still stand by that.

That reason alone is enough to make 'public face coverings' compulsory in town centres, supermarkets etc.

Smoking was banned in public places. Similar regulations could be put in place regarding 'face masks' - almost like banning the virus from being spread around.

[UnderSeige]

Hydroxychloroquine lowers COVID-19 death rate, Henry Ford Health study finds

A Henry Ford Health System study shows the controversial anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine helps lower the death rate of COVID-19 patients, the Detroit-based health system said Thursday.

Officials with the Michigan health system said the study found the drug “significantly” decreased the death rate of patients involved in the analysis.

The study analyzed 2,541 patients hospitalized among the system’s six hospitals between March 10 and May 2 and found 13% of those treated with hydroxychloroquine died while 26% of those who did not receive the drug died.

“As doctors and scientists, we look to the data for insight,” said Steven Kalkanis, CEO of the Henry Ford Medical Group. “And the data here is clear that there was a benefit to using the drug as a treatment for sick, hospitalized patients.”

The study, published in the International Society of Infectious Disease, found patients did not suffer heart-related side effects from the drug. https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/news/ ... 365090002/

[UnderSeige]

Broadway star died from the coronavirus, despite being just 41 and in apparent good health. Cases like his, experts said, are growing.

The death of the Broadway actor Nick Cordero from Covid-19 has shaken people far beyond the theater world, in large part because he was just 41 and reportedly had no underlying health conditions.

Medical experts said that Mr. Cordero’s death underscored a multitude of unknowns about the coronavirus — including the ways it could imperil even young, healthy people who did not appear to be at increased risk of contracting severe disease.

“The idea that ‘I’m young, I’ll be fine’ is not an idea that we can completely subscribe to,” said Dr. Utibe Essien, a physician and health equity researcher at the University of Pittsburgh.

Amanda Kloots, Mr. Cordero’s wife, has said that he had no known pre-existing conditions that might have worsened the course of his disease. As more data emerges, serious cases of younger, healthy people like him are becoming less of an anomaly, doctors said.

“A young person who has no real medical comorbidities, but gets super sick and ends up on multiple support machines” is a clinical portrait that doctors are now seeing “a lot,” said Dr. Taison Bell, a physician specializing in infectious disease and pulmonary and critical care at the University of Virginia. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/heal ... tions.html

[cricketfieldclarets]

This man has been so refreshing through all this. His optimism has been brilliant.

[UnderSeige]

This man has been so refreshing through all this. His optimism has been brilliant.

There have been a lot of good experts sidelined and ignored during this pandemic. I like listening to Chris Martensons talks.

[NottsClaret]

Still no sign of a second spike in Europe. Given that they released from lockdown earlier than us, if they are going to have a second spike in the summer, you would expect cases to be rising by now. Also in the UK by the end of the month.

At least not in places badly hit first time round. I see cases going up in the Balkans and Slovakia, and also in Catalonia in Spain - all of which avoided the first wave. A bit like in the US with states being badly hit who thought they'd got away with it, also seeing it spike in Australia now.

Whereas there doesn't appear to be a problem since reopening in the rest of Spain, France, New York.. even the UK so far. Maybe there's something in that herd immunity after all. Sooner or later perhaps you just have to take the pain.

[cricketfieldclarets]

At least not in places badly hit first time round. I see cases going up in the Balkans and Slovakia, and also in Catalonia in Spain - all of which avoided the first wave. A bit like in the US with states being badly hit who thought they'd got away with it, also seeing it spike in Australia now.

Whereas there doesn't appear to be a problem since reopening in the rest of Spain, France, New York.. even the UK so far. Maybe there's something in that herd immunity after all. Sooner or later perhaps you just have to take the pain.

That’s delayed the inevitable. On the plus side much more research available for them at the start of their waves.

USA and Sweden will likely come out the other side quicker.

Also mortality rates improving.

[Billy Balfour]

Maybe there's something in that herd immunity after all. Sooner or later perhaps you just have to take the pain.

Too few people contracted Coronavirus in the first wave for herd immunity to have any real impact. More likely to be the social-distancing measures etc and people changing their behaviour.

[UnderSeige]

At least not in places badly hit first time round. I see cases going up in the Balkans and Slovakia, and also in Catalonia in Spain - all of which avoided the first wave. A bit like in the US with states being badly hit who thought they'd got away with it, also seeing it spike in Australia now.

Whereas there doesn't appear to be a problem since reopening in the rest of Spain, France, New York.. even the UK so far. Maybe there's something in that herd immunity after all. Sooner or later perhaps you just have to take the pain.

It would be great to think that the main hit occurs once like you say. Certainly, for now, in most of Europe there is little to suggest a second spike. We should have a better idea of the UK in about three weeks. With all of the skaliwagduggery that has been going on if it's going to 'second spike' anywhere it will likely be here.

If there is no second spike by early August I guess we will then be looking at what else can cause a second spike:

• Frosty cold weather in the winter.

• Release from lockdown causing more indoor contact.

• Return of workers to manufacturing plants where there is a lot of close contact.

• Virus Mutation

• Complacency

Hopefully we will not have to find out if some of these vaccines, expected in the autumn, are successful.

[UnderSeige]

Too few people contracted Coronavirus in the first wave for herd immunity to have any real impact. More likely to be the social-distancing measures etc and people changing their behaviour.

There's a lot of questions still unanswered in that respect:

• Was it lockdown (or 'containment plan' in some countries) that stopped the virus in it's tracks?

• Was there already a certain amount of immunity in people who had developed antibodies from the common cold - another coronavirus?

• Did a very large proportion of the people catch the virus without symptoms and then develop antibodies?

• Does the virus transmute to a weaker form during the initial big spike?

• How long can the body retain antibodies before it discards them?

I don't think we yet know the answers.

[tiger76]

Dear oh dear, more questions for the government to answer around the awarding of PPE contractshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53361167

At least someone's making hay out of this crisis, this lot are just taking the Mickey Mouse now, roll on the next election.https://uk.yahoo.com/news/firm-links-go ... 4043.html

[dsr]

Dear oh dear, more questions for the government to answer around the awarding of PPE contractshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53361167

And what are the questions that the government should be answering?

1. Should conservative councillors be allowed to trade with the government?

2. Should companies that made a financial loss the previous year be allowed to trade with the government?

3. Should the government have used emergency powers to get PPE or should they have gone through the usual procedures?

4. Does the fact that a conservative councillor campaigned for the conservative candidate at the general election indicate an exacerbating factor that adds an extra degree of seriousness to this event?

5. Why is the BBC pretending that the provision of large amounts of PPE on time and to a fair price is somehow a scandal?

[FactualFrank]

Hydroxychloroquine lowers COVID-19 death rate, Henry Ford Health study finds

I actually take that. Have been on it a little over 3 months.

[martin_p]

And what are the questions that the government should be answering?

1. Should conservative councillors be allowed to trade with the government?

2. Should companies that made a financial loss the previous year be allowed to trade with the government?

3. Should the government have used emergency powers to get PPE or should they have gone through the usual procedures?

4. Does the fact that a conservative councillor campaigned for the conservative candidate at the general election indicate an exacerbating factor that adds an extra degree of seriousness to this event?

5. Why is the BBC pretending that the provision of large amounts of PPE on time and to a fair price is somehow a scandal?

How on earth do you read that report and come to the conclusion the BBC think it’s a scandal?

[dsr]

How on earth do you read that report and come to the conclusion the BBC think it’s a scandal?

Because the whole tone of the article is critical, and because the article could only be news if it is good news celebrating provision of PPE when there was a shortfall, or bad news in that there's something dubious about sourcing PPE from councillors who vote Tory.

[mkmel]

I actually take that. Have been on it a little over 3 months.

Donald is that you?

[KateR]

the link provides some info related to blood type and likelihood to getting C-19 and the severity, have there been other medical bodies that have similar findings?

https://abc13.com/health/could-your-blo ... 9/6310236/

[tiger76]

And what are the questions that the government should be answering?

1. Should conservative councillors be allowed to trade with the government?

2. Should companies that made a financial loss the previous year be allowed to trade with the government?

3. Should the government have used emergency powers to get PPE or should they have gone through the usual procedures?

4. Does the fact that a conservative councillor campaigned for the conservative candidate at the general election indicate an exacerbating factor that adds an extra degree of seriousness to this event?

5. Why is the BBC pretending that the provision of large amounts of PPE on time and to a fair price is somehow a scandal?

1. If the process is open and transparent then yes.
2. Perhaps, but it's only fair to ask why they run at a loss, in this case it appears they invested heavily in new technology, so that might justify their loss making in that period.
3. Of course the government should get the PPE from a to b ASAP in a crisis, whether this happened everywhere is another question, but it's only fair that the awarding of contracts is open to scrutiny, and any hint of nepotism is thoroughly checked to ensure everything's above board.
4.I refer you to the answer above
5. If the company delivered on time & budget, which they apparently did then wonderful.

If you want to raise another question, you could inquire why this company with no previous experience in the field, managed to produce the amount of PPE that it did, in such a quick time frame, and so cheaply, if they could do it, why couldn't others?

On the surface this sounds like something the government should be crowing about, but it's still acceptable for the opposition to raise questions regarding transparency, now if the government and the firm in question have done nothing wrong, which may well be the case, then they'll have no issues about this matter being investigated will they.

[dsr]

1. If the process is open and transparent then yes.
2. Perhaps, but it's only fair to ask why they run at a loss, in this case it appears they invested heavily in new technology, so that might justify their loss making in that period.
3. Of course the government should get the PPE from a to b ASAP in a crisis, whether this happened everywhere is another question, but it's only fair that the awarding of contracts is open to scrutiny, and any hint of nepotism is thoroughly checked to ensure everything's above board.
4.I refer you to the answer above
5. If the company delivered on time & budget, which they apparently did then wonderful.

If you want to raise another question, you could inquire why this company with no previous experience in the field, managed to produce the amount of PPE that it did, in such a quick time frame, and so cheaply, if they could do it, why couldn't others?

On the surface this sounds like something the government should be crowing about, but it's still acceptable for the opposition to raise questions regarding transparency, now if the government and the firm in question have done nothing wrong, which may well be the case, then they'll have no issues about this matter being investigated will they.

Looking at the report, I would be very surprised if there is anything to discover. But why does the BBC produce a news report designed to make people doubt the government (and it worked for you) when they have absolutely no evidence of anything being wrong?

I mean, come on. Trying to pad out the report by saying that this Conservative councillor campaigned for the Conservatives at the general election - that really is a sign of someone desperate to slander the government without having any material to do it with. Isn't the BBC supposed to be both honest and politically neutral? This report is clearly neither.

[tiger76]

Looking at the report, I would be very surprised if there is anything to discover. But why does the BBC produce a news report designed to make people doubt the government (and it worked for you) when they have absolutely no evidence of anything being wrong?

I mean, come on. Trying to pad out the report by saying that this Conservative councillor campaigned for the Conservatives at the general election - that really is a sign of someone desperate to slander the government without having any material to do it with. Isn't the BBC supposed to be both honest and politically neutral? This report is clearly neither.

The Beeb certainly aren't politically neutral, and even more so since the brexit vote they've been nailing their colours to the mast.

If as you state there's nothing to discover then all well and good, and the BBC is clearly mischief making.

But i'm sure you'll agree that anybody in public office, regardless of political allegiance, has to abide to the expected standards of behaviour that office entails.

I'm cynical about most politicians, it's just my nature, and the experience of many dodgy dealings they've all indulged in down the years.

[Devils_Advocate]

Looking at the report, I would be very surprised if there is anything to discover. But why does the BBC produce a news report designed to make people doubt the government (and it worked for you) when they have absolutely no evidence of anything being wrong?

I mean, come on. Trying to pad out the report by saying that this Conservative councillor campaigned for the Conservatives at the general election - that really is a sign of someone desperate to slander the government without having any material to do it with. Isn't the BBC supposed to be both honest and politically neutral? This report is clearly neither.

If you want to understand why there is serious concern about the govt awarding contracts to themselves and their cronies then here's a couple of examples of them doing what they do best

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-m ... mpetition/

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/under- ... -big-tech/

Add to this recent stories off cabinet members like Jenrick and his cash for favours and I think you'll find the person blinded by bias in this is yourself.

Happy to start a separate thread if you really dont think this govt is corrupt as I reckon over a few weeks I could easily search out 10-20 stories where the govt is awarding contracts and favours to friends, family, themselves or party donors

[dsr]

If you want to understand why there is serious concern about the govt awarding contracts to themselves and their cronies ...

Those journalists may have the same concerns as you. That doesn't justify putting out anti-government stories based on nothing.

[Burnley1989]

It would be great to think that the main hit occurs once like you say. Certainly, for now, in most of Europe there is little to suggest a second spike. We should have a better idea of the UK in about three weeks. With all of the skaliwagduggery that has been going on if it's going to 'second spike' anywhere it will likely be here.

If there is no second spike by early August I guess we will then be looking at what else can cause a second spike:

• Frosty cold weather in the winter.

• Release from lockdown causing more indoor contact.

• Return of workers to manufacturing plants where there is a lot of close contact.

• Virus Mutation

• Complacency

Hopefully we will not have to find out if some of these vaccines, expected in the autumn, are successful.

I’ll not not say who but I went in my first Engineering company since lockdown the other day, local to Burnley, decent size company and I was let in by a manager through a side door and taken to a department, surprised me

[Devils_Advocate]

Those journalists may have the same concerns as you. That doesn't justify putting out anti-government stories based on nothing.

Its not based on nothing though. When a govt is constantly awarding contracts to themselves and their cronies without transparency then a large contract being awarded to a Tory Councillor in an area (PPE) where other awards of contracts have been show to contain conflicted interests then it is a valid news story and not just an anti govt attack

[bfcmik]

10July covid c.JPG (59.51 KiB) Viewed 2548 times

10July covid d.JPG (61.65 KiB) Viewed 2548 times

Today's announced numbers for England and Wales of 512 new cases and 48 new deaths take the 7 day averages down to 551 and 75 respectively. No sign of any uptick to new cases 7 days after pubs re-opening and the crowd scenes from city centres we saw last weekend - despite testing over 200,000 people a day this week!

With the UK all-cause death rate now below the long-term average for the time of year where are the doomsayers getting their data from? The REAL WORLD track of the infection progression in the UK is still almost identical, just 1% above the mean projection, to that forecast back in April by the professor and his team from Oxford University and the US CDC research team at Stanford University. Our knowledge and understanding of the virus and how it affects people has dramatically increased in a short time. Some of these professors seem to be wedded to their theories/predictions no matter how unsupported by real world data they are.

We live in a dirty world, IT WILL NEVER BE CLEAN. There are over a 150 illness causing viruses and bacteria floating around in the atmosphere all the time. We have evolved to minimise the risk of infection from them. The T-cells, antigens and antibodies are actually a last resort in our body's infection control system. The alkaline nature of our saliva followed by the acidic nature of our stomachs is an effective killer, our nasal hairs and mucus production is designed to prevent possibly infectious particles reaching our airways, ear wax and ear hairs have the same role. Novel Coronavirus isn't going away but it WILL become just another one of those things such as the common cold or flu that our bodies just learn to deal with.

[UnderSeige]

And what are the questions that the government should be answering?

1. Should conservative councillors be allowed to trade with the government?

2. Should companies that made a financial loss the previous year be allowed to trade with the government?

3. Should the government have used emergency powers to get PPE or should they have gone through the usual procedures?

4. Does the fact that a conservative councillor campaigned for the conservative candidate at the general election indicate an exacerbating factor that adds an extra degree of seriousness to this event?

5. Why is the BBC pretending that the provision of large amounts of PPE on time and to a fair price is somehow a scandal?

1. Why not? As long as it can later be shown that the company was not making excessive profits from the situation or other companies were being overlooked in preference to the Tory member run company. All hands to the pump in a crises.

2. Same answer as 1.

3. Used emergency powers.

4. I'm a bit to thick to understand the question. But probably no.

5. I'm not sure they are saying it's a scandal. They are saying that it is being questioned. In my opinion it is not a scandal.

What I do find a bit disturbing is that at least one company telephoned the LBC talk radio programme at the time and claimed that they had the capacity to produce PPE and had tried to contact the government/PHE but were not able to get the 'go-ahead' to manufacture the stuff. As in answers 1 and 2 it should be 'all hands to the pump' in a crises.

[cricketfieldclarets]

10July covid c.JPG10July covid d.JPG

Today's announced numbers for England and Wales of 512 new cases and 48 new deaths take the 7 day averages down to 551 and 75 respectively. No sign of any uptick to new cases 7 days after pubs re-opening and the crowd scenes from city centres we saw last weekend - despite testing over 200,000 people a day this week!

With the UK all-cause death rate now below the long-term average for the time of year where are the doomsayers getting their data from? The REAL WORLD track of the infection progression in the UK is still almost identical, just 1% above the mean projection, to that forecast back in April by the professor and his team from Oxford University and the US CDC research team at Stanford University. Our knowledge and understanding of the virus and how it affects people has dramatically increased in a short time. Some of these professors seem to be wedded to their theories/predictions no matter how unsupported by real world data they are.

We live in a dirty world, IT WILL NEVER BE CLEAN. There are over a 150 illness causing viruses and bacteria floating around in the atmosphere all the time. We have evolved to minimise the risk of infection from them. The T-cells, antigens and antibodies are actually a last resort in our body's infection control system. The alkaline nature of our saliva followed by the acidic nature of our stomachs is an effective killer, our nasal hairs and mucus production is designed to prevent possibly infectious particles reaching our airways, ear wax and ear hairs have the same role. Novel Coronavirus isn't going away but it WILL become just another one of those things such as the common cold or flu that our bodies just learn to deal with.

Spot on. We have to keep being positive, optimistic and sensible.