Covid-19

[jrgbfc]

How will social distancing work in football stadia?
Will it be every other seat, or maybe a 2 seat gap between fans?
How will this affect season ticket holders with allocated seats?
Is there enough seating to accommodate all season ticket holders at a social distance?
What happens where the person allocated to the middle of the row wants to get to their seat, or leave their seat to go to the toilet or for refreshments?

It seems to me that it's either back to how it used to be, or there's some head banging thinking going to be required for this to work.

Will be a logistical nightmare to sort out! Maybe 50% of season ticket holders get in for one game and the other half the next. People will obviously have to be willing to sit anywhere as well. Maybe close the bars/food outlets to stop people congregating?

[Grumps]

Will be a logistical nightmare to sort out! Maybe 50% of season ticket holders get in for one game and the other half the next. People will obviously have to be willing to sit anywhere as well. Maybe close the bars/food outlets to stop people congregating?

If social distancing is gone by Nov everyone should be able to go, but probably only season ticket holders to start with.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

How will social distancing work in football stadia?
Will it be every other seat, or maybe a 2 seat gap between fans?
How will this affect season ticket holders with allocated seats?
Is there enough seating to accommodate all season ticket holders at a social distance?
What happens where the person allocated to the middle of the row wants to get to their seat, or leave their seat to go to the toilet or for refreshments?

It seems to me that it's either back to how it used to be, or there's some head banging thinking going to be required for this to work.

Having seen how irate people on here get at the suggestion of moving adult only ST holders out of JMU, or moving them along to create more space etc then suggesting people may have to sit somewhere different due to Covid, that reaction would be interesting to see.

[taio]

Having seen how irate people on here get at the suggestion of moving adult only ST holders out of JMU, or moving them along to create more space etc then suggesting people may have to sit somewhere different due to Covid, that reaction would be interesting to see.

I've previously said that I'd be annoyed at being moved out of JMU. But I would have no issue whatsoever with moving temporarily due to Covid and to allow fans back in.

[UnderSeige]

My hypothesis is there are other reasons beyond what you state here. As a minimum I'm convinced many more people have already had the virus than what has been projected. Time will tell if I'm wrong and it's all down to track and trace, mask wearing (vast majority haven't been wearing them), hygiene and social distancing. I think it will prove to be much more complex and nuanced than that.

Hypothesis, opinions etc. are two a penny at the moment. It's best just to look at what we know and learn from that.

[UnderSeige]

How will social distancing work in football stadia?
Will it be every other seat, or maybe a 2 seat gap between fans?
How will this affect season ticket holders with allocated seats?
Is there enough seating to accommodate all season ticket holders at a social distance?
What happens where the person allocated to the middle of the row wants to get to their seat, or leave their seat to go to the toilet or for refreshments?

It seems to me that it's either back to how it used to be, or there's some head banging thinking going to be required for this to work.

I think you are 100% correct - especially throughout the winter. We really need a successful vaccine or a definite scientific discovery (not someones idea) that the virus has faded out.

[dsr]

Hypothesis, opinions etc. are two a penny at the moment. It's best just to look at what we know and learn from that.

I wish the government shared your views.

For example, what we know is that on average, you would have to pass about 4,000 people in a supermarket to have an average chance of one of them having coronavirus, and if you do pass one, the chances of catching something are perhaps 1 in 100. Probably less. So anyone shopping would need to pass 400,000 people before they are liely to catch coronavirus.

So why make it compulsory to wear masks? Why are they telling people that visiting a shop, the smallest or the largest, with all reasonable precautions taken, is still deadly dangerous?

[taio]

Hypothesis, opinions etc. are two a penny at the moment. It's best just to look at what we know and learn from that.

Part of the conversation is based on an academic research study. But in any case I'll continue to offer opinions as and when I see fit - it's how websites like this work.

[dsr]

I think you are 100% correct - especially throughout the winter. We really need a successful vaccine or a definite scientific discovery (not someones idea) that the virus has faded out.

It has faded out. Statistics tell you that. What you're after is a definite scientific discovery that if we all (or at least those not in vlunerable groups) go back to normal, it won't come back - and unless we all go back to normal, we won't find out, will we.

[UnderSeige]

Throughout this whole lockdown people have overlooked that kids have still been mixing quite a lot. That would likely spread it. I think there is more immunity and or it’s less potent.

Still need to be cautious. But things are looking much better.

Several studies from Japan, Korea, China, Spain and now Kings College London show that it is possible to get it twice or even more times. Numerous anecdotals are now appearing in which people are getting it twice. If this is the case the 'herd immunity' would take decades.

I have put this in more detail in posts yesterday along with links.

[NottsClaret]

I do agree each individual risk is low, personally I've never been worried about it. But we're talking about huge numbers of people in the UK. If something is a 1 in a 100,000 risk on any given day, that's still 600 infections. Somebody will always be the unlucky one, then take that virus home with them.

[UnderSeige]

Sweden. Pretty much zero lockdown. Also see South Korea.

It’s impossible to compare every country as so much different stuff at play.

Korea -'Containment strategy from the start'. No need to lock down. They new how to deal with it. Other far eastern countries such as Japan the same. 'Cluster busting officials', track and trace, mask wearing etc.

Sweden - People tend to be a lot cleaner and do a lot of voluntary social distancing even when there is no pandemic. They stay off work when ill etc. It's in their culture. Even so their performance, during this pandemic has been much worst than the other Scandinavian countries that took stricter measures.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Korea -'Containment strategy from the start'. No need to lock down. They new how to deal with it. Other far eastern countries such as Japan the same. 'Cluster busting officials', track and trace, mask wearing etc.

Sweden - People tend to be a lot cleaner and do a lot of voluntary social distancing even when there is no pandemic. They stay off work when ill etc. It's in their culture. Even so their performance, during this pandemic has been much worst than the other Scandinavian countries that took stricter measures.

But they’ll be less susceptible to round two.

[Billy Balfour]

All over by Christmas. Now where have we heard that one before?

[CrosspoolClarets]

It’s all fairly straight forward. Excess deaths during July are zero. Lots of the announced deaths will seemingly be those who had Covid once and now died of old age or an accident. So the reason for the masks is purely economical.

The trouble is we are getting some daft scientists and doctors going overboard - the virus is obviously still out there, and discipline is still needed, but there is no logic in making restrictions more stringent than they were during lockdown, as they are doing with masks.

[CombatClaret]

Something people seems to be overlooking is that even a mild case in healthy people can affect your life. It's not die or fine.

Have a healthy friend in early 30s with no pre-existing conditions who had it only bad enough to lay him up at home for a few days in March. But now can't pass a lung strength test after 8 attempts and is also having fatigue/irritability problems.
Young people who've run marathons now unable to job to the shops, It's possible it's taken years of people's lives.

[Quickenthetempo]

Reporter asks Orange Co Fla health official if the two COVID deaths listed as in their 20s had any underlying conditions. Reply:

“The first one didn’t have any. He died in a motorcycle accident.”

https://t.co/IFUOz4WpbC

[cricketfieldclarets]

It’s all fairly straight forward. Excess deaths during July are zero. Lots of the announced deaths will seemingly be those who had Covid once and now died of old age or an accident. So the reason for the masks is purely economical.

The trouble is we are getting some daft scientists and doctors going overboard - the virus is obviously still out there, and discipline is still needed, but there is no logic in making restrictions more stringent than they were during lockdown, as they are doing with masks.

Masks make sense to me. Suffocate it when it’s at its lowest.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Something people seems to be overlooking is that even a mild case in healthy people can affect your life. It's not die or fine.

Have a healthy friend in early 30s with no pre-existing conditions who had it only bad enough to lay him up at home for a few days in March. But now can't pass a lung strength test after 8 attempts and is also having fatigue/irritability problems.
Young people who've run marathons now unable to job to the shops, It's possible it's taken years of people's lives.

Undoubtedly there will be exceptions. Some unfortunate people in low risk category will succumb. That’s the same with Almost any diesease.

[FactualFrank]

We don’t need to listen to ‘science’. Eventually the virus will just travel to the farthest reaches of planet Earth and then just fall over the edge.

[cricketfieldclarets]

We don’t need to listen to ‘science’. Eventually the virus will just travel to the farthest reaches of planet Earth and then just fall over the edge.

Well indeed. Unless it gets to the ice shelfs.

[UnderSeige]

But they’ll be less susceptible to round two.

I am not sure that countries like Korea will. In the main, they already have it licked. However, the UK will be less susceptible if we have learned the lessons. At the moment, after getting it wrong at the start, the government are doing a decent job:

• Mask wearing rules - essential. Tick to the government.

• Track and trace. Working well in the main. Tick to the government.

• Social distancing rules. Tick to the government.

• Support for vaccine programmes. Tick to the government

• Re-introduction of behind closed doors sport. Tick to the government. I got that one wrong.

• Encouraging over 50's to take flu vaccine should help prevent parallel flu virus in winter. Tick to the government.

• Government recommendations on Vitamin D supplementation.Tick to the government.

• Should have learned care home lesson by now

• Hospitals better equiped with more knowledge on how to treat Covid.

• Testing facilities in place all over the country

Could do better at the following:

• Track and trace App.

• Gaining the confidence of the population through effective communication.

• Rules for pubs and some other leisure industries - not sure there is a solution until we know the vaccine situation sometime in August.

• Stopping mass gatherings - easier said than done.

Also we may have (and nobody knows yet) around 5%-10% short term immunity with possible reinfections - but it's a better position than in March.

Things that we know for sure could go against us in winter:

• Less daylight and dimmer daylight. The virus cannot live long in bright UV light.

• Lower levels of Vitamin D in the population leading to weaker immune systems.

• People refusing the vaccine if one becomes available.

• A parallel flu virus (and again people refusing to take the vaccine)

• Cold weather enables the virus to live longer on surfaces. Five degrees being the optimum.

• People gathering together indoors.

• Possible virus mutation - but 'containment measures' should stop it spreading if kept in place

If the government keeps a steady ship and doesn't start to release all the rules to gain short term popularity we should do OK with or without a vaccine before winter. If they start undoing all the good work it's 'Merry lockdown Christmas'.

[UnderSeige]

I do agree each individual risk is low, personally I've never been worried about it. But we're talking about huge numbers of people in the UK. If something is a 1 in a 100,000 risk on any given day, that's still 600 infections. Somebody will always be the unlucky one, then take that virus home with them.

I listened to this chap last night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXUmFmZV8Vw

He estimated that with zero measures and exponential growth, deaths over winter would be over 120 thousand. Of course he doesn't know that but the one hundred plus flareups that the government track and trace system is putting down suggest that the virus is still around and that it tends to spread quicker indoors and especially in cold places such as 'meat packing plants'.

[UnderSeige]

All over by Christmas. Now where have we heard that one before?

The government needs to avoid aiming for a 'Bridge to far'.

[UnderSeige]

It’s all fairly straight forward. Excess deaths during July are zero. Lots of the announced deaths will seemingly be those who had Covid once and now died of old age or an accident. So the reason for the masks is purely economical.

The trouble is we are getting some daft scientists and doctors going overboard - the virus is obviously still out there, and discipline is still needed, but there is no logic in making restrictions more stringent than they were during lockdown, as they are doing with masks.

I think that the masks, and contact tracing, are instead of lockdown. I know which I prefer.

[UnderSeige]

More research on T-Cells

New data suggests that the specific types of T-cells you have in your immune system determine how severely your body will react to the coronavirus upon infection.

As this dynamic becomes better understood (lots more research needed!), we'll hopefully start to be able to better identify the folks truly at higher risk and prioritize their protection. And hopefully everyone else can worry a little bit less. Chris Martenson. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG2q_QcAZG8

Could be the reason why some recover and some get very sick.

SARS-CoV-2 induces robust memory T cell responses in antibody-seronegative and antibody-seropositive individuals with asymptomatic or mild COVID-19. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 1.full.pdf

[Zlatan]

No one can seriously credit the government for people wearing masks - their ineptitude in the early days sourcing PPE for the NHS led to the “masks won’t do anything for you” initial line from them to protect the supplies for health workers.

Neither can the total cock up with track and trace be creditable either.

With wearing masks from the outset and a proper track and trace system the death toll would have been much lower.

[bfcjg]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/scottish-econ ... 16870.html
Looks like we will be bailing out the ungrateful, anti English jocks as per normal.

[timshorts]

I listened to this chap last night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXUmFmZV8Vw

He estimated that with zero measures and exponential growth, deaths over winter would be over 120 thousand. Of course he doesn't know that but the one hundred plus flareups that the government track and trace system is putting down suggest that the virus is still around and that it tends to spread quicker indoors and especially in cold places such as 'meat packing plants'.

It really won't go away if some countries don't make a concerted effort. Just looked at todays figures. The US has more new cases today than Portugal has had cases in total since measurements began. They are also up to ninth in the league table for covid related deaths per head of the population. That is quite a feat given the size of the denominator.
They may go up to 8th if we have points deducted for exaggerating covid deaths in England, as seems to be reported today. We are currently firmly in a champions league spot.

[taio]

No one can seriously credit the government for people wearing masks - their ineptitude in the early days sourcing PPE for the NHS led to the “masks won’t do anything for you” initial line from them to protect the supplies for health workers.

Neither can the total cock up with track and trace be creditable either.

With wearing masks from the outset and a proper track and trace system the death toll would have been much lower.

The overwhelming majority of health and care workers have been adequately protected with PPE. I know much of the worry was about organisations with just a couple of days supply left rather than them without stock - it was a hand to mouth situation and global challenge and sometimes the organisation itself did not have effective processes in place. Whilst there were some problems, on the whole those involved have done a monumental job in the procurement and distribution.

[cricketfieldclarets]

[cricketfieldclarets]

[CrosspoolClarets]

Masks make sense to me. Suffocate it when it’s at its lowest.

I understand that, but I’ve spent many years working as a non clinical person in clinical environments, and many, many times I’ve been warned about inappropriate mask technique (I recall one where I was watching a hip replacement in theatre). I do believe Jenny Harris was right when she said in March something along the lines of masks may make things worse because people contaminate them and leave them sitting somewhere, or reuse them inappropriately.

That’s why the only thing that makes sense to me is that they are doing it because a) it is popular in the polling, and b) it might get more people out and about, spending or earning. I suspect they know the difference to the virus is marginal at best, and we have worked hard for our liberty, we have to be so wary of handing it away.

[Spijed]

I understand that, but I’ve spent many years working as a non clinical person in clinical environments, and many, many times I’ve been warned about inappropriate mask technique (I recall one where I was watching a hip replacement in theatre). I do believe Jenny Harris was right when she said in March something along the lines of masks may make things worse because people contaminate them and leave them sitting somewhere, or reuse them inappropriately.

That’s why the only thing that makes sense to me is that they are doing it because a) it is popular in the polling, and b) it might get more people out and about, spending or earning. I suspect they know the difference to the virus is marginal at best, and we have worked hard for our liberty, we have to be so wary of handing it away.

Would this have happened had they been wearing a mask? Even leaving a contaminated mask around would never have led to a worse outcome surely.

"How coronavirus spread from one member to 87% of the singers at a Washington choir practice"

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/13/us/c ... index.html

[Zlatan]

Numpties everywhere...

https://www.wiltshire999s.co.uk/wethers ... reaks-out/

[CrosspoolClarets]

Something people seems to be overlooking is that even a mild case in healthy people can affect your life. It's not die or fine.

Have a healthy friend in early 30s with no pre-existing conditions who had it only bad enough to lay him up at home for a few days in March. But now can't pass a lung strength test after 8 attempts and is also having fatigue/irritability problems.
Young people who've run marathons now unable to job to the shops, It's possible it's taken years of people's lives.

This is very true, and the reason I am going out and about with caution, though I don’t believe masks are justified for the reasons I gave above (while cases are so low and declining).

We still have to be careful, and if the Turf was open for business, I’m not sure I would be there.

[Zlatan]

I understand that, but I’ve spent many years working as a non clinical person in clinical environments, and many, many times I’ve been warned about inappropriate mask technique (I recall one where I was watching a hip replacement in theatre). I do believe Jenny Harris was right when she said in March something along the lines of masks may make things worse because people contaminate them and leave them sitting somewhere, or reuse them inappropriately.

That’s why the only thing that makes sense to me is that they are doing it because a) it is popular in the polling, and b) it might get more people out and about, spending or earning. I suspect they know the difference to the virus is marginal at best, and we have worked hard for our liberty, we have to be so wary of handing it away.

That really is a poor defence of not insisting on masks in the early stages, yes I agree that some people may have got things a bit wrong, but if the majority of us were wearing masks from the outset in public the lockdown may not have been necessary, or as prolonged.

Anyone can surely see that.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Would this have happened had they been wearing a mask? Even leaving a contaminated mask around would never have led to a worse outcome surely.

"How coronavirus spread from one member to 87% of the singers at a Washington choir practice"

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/13/us/c ... index.html

I do suspect that masks would benefit the choir, but not as much as not having a choir at all. Standing next to someone and belting out songs cannot be good while asymptomatic.

As I wrote above, I believe the mask is of marginal benefit overall, but for some people they take it off wrongly, contaminate their hands, and forget to hand sanitise after because they feel they haven’t touched anything. I think that’s why some medics don’t like non-medics using them.

Personally my main gripe isn’t that, its that they promote fear not reassurance in many people, it makes it “feel” like the virus is everywhere, and I don’t think the economic benefit from them will come.

[taio]

Would this have happened had they been wearing a mask? Even leaving a contaminated mask around would never have led to a worse outcome surely.

"How coronavirus spread from one member to 87% of the singers at a Washington choir practice"

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/13/us/c ... index.html

It wouldn't have happened if they had socially distanced.

[CrosspoolClarets]

That really is a poor defence of not insisting on masks in the early stages, yes I agree that some people may have got things a bit wrong, but if the majority of us were wearing masks from the outset in public the lockdown may not have been necessary, or as prolonged.

Anyone can surely see that.

Just for clarity, I do agree with wearing them in the height of lockdown. A marginal benefit, which I believe them to be, would still have saved many lives.

Now, while excess deaths are zero, the benefit does not outweigh the sacrifice to our liberty and the sense of fear they instill in people. I worry very much about mental health and this pandemic.

[UnderSeige]

No one can seriously credit the government for people wearing masks - their ineptitude in the early days sourcing PPE for the NHS led to the “masks won’t do anything for you” initial line from them to protect the supplies for health workers.

Neither can the total cock up with track and trace be creditable either.

With wearing masks from the outset and a proper track and trace system the death toll would have been much lower.

And we could have avoided lockdown.

I hope they have learned so that they can get it right for winter and for any future viruses. Shortages of PPI, care home tragedies, overwhelming of hospitals, having to go into national lockdown etc. would be an outrage if it happened this winter.

[UnderSeige]

It wouldn't have happened if they had socially distanced.

What about the Clarets choir in the cricket field stand when attended matches start again?

[Spijed]

Wonder why UK scientists say vaccine is likely to be successful where as in Germany they don't?

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/he ... e-december

https://www.iol.co.za/news/world/german ... e-50871976

[cricketfieldclarets]

Just for clarity, I do agree with wearing them in the height of lockdown. A marginal benefit, which I believe them to be, would still have saved many lives.

Now, while excess deaths are zero, the benefit does not outweigh the sacrifice to our liberty and the sense of fear they instill in people. I worry very much about mental health and this pandemic.

You’re right to worry about mental health. But unemployment and lockdown will do more damage than wearing a mask in limited settings.

[icu81b4]

No one can seriously credit the government for people wearing masks - their ineptitude in the early days sourcing PPE for the NHS led to the “masks won’t do anything for you” initial line from them to protect the supplies for health workers.

Neither can the total cock up with track and trace be creditable either.

With wearing masks from the outset and a proper track and trace system the death toll would have been much lower.

A senior NHS employee informed me that it's actually the NHS managers job to buy PPE not the governments, and they should have started stockpiling back in February. They didn't and that's why the Ministers had to step in.

[UnderSeige]

Just for clarity, I do agree with wearing them in the height of lockdown. A marginal benefit, which I believe them to be, would still have saved many lives.

Now, while excess deaths are zero, the benefit does not outweigh the sacrifice to our liberty and the sense of fear they instill in people. I worry very much about mental health and this pandemic.

'Sacrifice to our liberty' is over dramatising it. The current government are not some dictatorship. They were democratically elected and are simply doing their best to try to maximise public safety just as the Coalition government did in WW2 when it told people to carry gas masks and identity cards everywhere.

I can't see that wearing masks is a deprivation of liberty. It's only temporary and I can think of far more scary people walking around than someone who is dressed normally except for a mask. There are people in society who would happily steal your liberty but not this current government.

Your not forced to go into shops or on public transport but if you do, you are expected to abide by social norms and laws that are necessary. If you started smoking and spitting in a supermarket, the supermarket is at liberty to show you to the door.

Wearing a mask helps you to ensure that you are not infecting others should you unknowingly contract the virus. Are you not concerned to do your bit to help your fellow citizens? Are you not concerned that your fellow citizens should do their bit to help you?

[UnderSeige]

Wonder why UK scientists say vaccine is likely to be successful where as in Germany they don't?

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/he ... e-december

https://www.iol.co.za/news/world/german ... e-50871976

Hopefully it's because the test results so far have given them the confidence to believe that there is a good chance of the vaccine being successful.

Start to worry if the scientist talk up their results before the full trial data is published and then immediately sell their shares in the company.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

All over by Christmas according to Boris don’t know what we are worrying about anymore.

[dsr]

You’re right to worry about mental health. But unemployment and lockdown will do more damage than wearing a mask in limited settings.

The problem with masks is that the government is saying "safe to go back to work, safe to go shopping, little danger, get on with life ... oh, by the way, always wear a mask even if you're only in a shop for a minute". Are people going to believe that it is really safe?

Quite apart from the stupidity of a rule that says if you visit a shop for a minute to buy a coffee to take away, you must wear a mask or get fined £100 because it's deadly dangerous not to. But if you visit a shop to sit inside for an hour, it's safe to take the mask off.

[dsr]

All over by Christmas according to Boris don’t know what we are worrying about anymore.

Perhaps we are worrying about people who listen to three words of a speech and think they know what was said? People who think that Boris said it will all be over by Christmas, perhaps haven't understood much of the rest of what has been said by all; parties.