Re: Covid-19
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:42 pm
http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboard/
http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45071
Wrong I didn't ignore it at all.CombatClaret wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:44 pmSD.jpg
I posted this already but you both ignored it. It's a frame from a time lapse video of the fitting of the Excell Center. There plenty more like it of the construction workers not following social distancing rule. I wouldn't really have cared tbh, the benefits outweigh the risks, but you went full THE SUN on trumpeting the event.
-It's not a working hospital it's a large ward with one purpose in mind that will be deconstructed afterward.
-It wasn't out of thin air, the building and all utilities were already in place and it's specifically designed for large get ins/get outs.
-Workers did not do it under social distancing rules.
But apart from that... And you wonder why they call you Wrongo
I repliedCombatClaret wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:31 amWrongo going full Gove.
Sorry but while I'm not going to diminish the achievement of what's been done it's not a "fully functioning hospital" there's no X-Ray dept, Cardiology dept, A&E, Bloods etc etc. It's a large building with lots of beds and basic monitoring equipment. And it wasn't out of thin air the building was already there to begin with.
This is like the '40 new hospitals' which turned out to mostly be upgrades to old ones.
Very impressive and much needed but don't pretend they built a full on hospital. And looking at the timeless video they definitely did not do it whilst keeping to social distancing.
In your first post your claim "I'm not going to diminish the achievement of what's been done"RingoMcCartney wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:10 pm
Post Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:10 pm
If that's the case, the fact that they have, potentially, put their lives at risk for others . Then I'm sure youd agree they deserve our utmost appreciation and respect for their selfless efforts.
I for one take my hat off to them.
Wrong. 10 days ago, had you fallen ill with Coronavirus, you would not have been able to be treated at the Nightingale Hospital. Today you would.CombatClaret wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:31 am-It wasn't out of thin air, the building and all utilities were already in place and it's specifically designed for large get ins/get outs.
Wrong. Every TV channel, every radio station, every paper, every TV presenter, every political commentator, every politician, every political commentator, even Robert Peston, Prince Charles, has described it as a hospital. The clue is in the name that has been universally accepted. - Nightingale HOSPITAL. Apart from one guy on a football message board !CombatClaret wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:31 am"-It's not a working hospital it's a large ward with one purpose in mind that will be deconstructed afterward."
Wrong. Social distancing rules were already in place during the building of this hospital. The people responsible for achieving this monumental challenge just chose to put protocol to one side and put their lives at risk , in order to save others.CombatClaret wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:31 am-Workers did not do it under social distancing rules."
They had nine weeks to prepare, and now we have this shambles. Johnson is evidence himself that if you throw enough glitter at a turd, it will eventually sparkle. And now you’re throwing rose petals in front of your master’s path. Where is Johnson? Isolation, okay, but what have you heard from your great leader? He hid in a fridge, and shirked the floods, and now he’s not being a leader again. I did say, he was once my supposed mayor. It’s rubbish, and you’re always the promoter of this rubbish. The supposed economic miracle with Sunak - people still have to pay rent and mortgages, and if they fall outside of help, what are they supposed to do? What are businesses supposed to do? This government is presiding over the biggest economic collapse of my lifetime. And you want people to sit back and consider how it is afterwards? When a car careers toward you on the street, do you wait for experts to tell you to jump out of the way?RingoMcCartney wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:45 pmWrong I didn't ignore it at all.
I replied
In your first post your claim "I'm not going to diminish the achievement of what's been done"
This sounds an awful lot like you're trying your very best to play down the achievements of the government, the NHS staff , the army and countless others who've pulled of a minor miracle.
Wrong. 10 days ago, had you fallen ill with Coronavirus, you would not have been able to be treated. Today you would.
Wrong. Every TV channel, every radio station, every paper, every TV presenter, every political commentator, every politician, every political commentator, even Robert Peston, Prince Charles, has described it as a hospital. The clue is in the name that has been universally accepted. - Nightingale HOSPITAL. Apart from one guy on a football message board !
Wrong. Social distancing rules were already in place. The people responsible for achieving this monumental challenge just chose to put protocol to one side and put their lives at risk , in order to save others.
You can see by the graph which countries got it wrong and surprise, it's the US and UK, the ones with the worst leaders.AndrewJB wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:11 amThey had nine weeks to prepare, and now we have this shambles. Johnson is evidence himself that if you throw enough glitter at a turd, it will eventually sparkle. And now you’re throwing rose petals in front of your master’s path. Where is Johnson? Isolation, okay, but what have you heard from your great leader? He hid in a fridge, and shirked the floods, and now he’s not being a leader again. I did say, he was once my supposed mayor. It’s rubbish, and you’re always the promoter of this rubbish. The supposed economic miracle with Sunak - people still have to pay rent and mortgages, and if they fall outside of help, what are they supposed to do? What are businesses supposed to do? This government is presiding over the biggest economic collapse of my lifetime. And you want people to sit back and consider how it is afterwards? When a car careers toward you on the street, do you wait for experts to tell you to jump out of the way?
Is it not the other way around (see below) so the figures will in reality higher than the ones the Government are currently releasing. Considering we don't have enough test's I image there's a not an insignificant number of people who are dying undiagnosed:Elizabeth wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:34 pmThe Office for National Statistics are trying to proportion the number of deaths cause specifically by the virus. I think this will be helpful.
At the moment anyone who dies with the virus in the body are added to the figure shown in the death graphs. This is even when they were in the process of dying anyway or the virus was not the major contributory factor in the death.
The resident experts will already know this of course but for some of us this type of understanding may be of use.
This is not to undermine the extreme seriousness of this awful virus.
See you at the next general election Andrew.AndrewJB wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:11 amThey had nine weeks to prepare, and now we have this shambles. Johnson is evidence himself that if you throw enough glitter at a turd, it will eventually sparkle. And now you’re throwing rose petals in front of your master’s path. Where is Johnson? Isolation, okay, but what have you heard from your great leader? He hid in a fridge, and shirked the floods, and now he’s not being a leader again. I did say, he was once my supposed mayor. It’s rubbish, and you’re always the promoter of this rubbish. The supposed economic miracle with Sunak - people still have to pay rent and mortgages, and if they fall outside of help, what are they supposed to do? What are businesses supposed to do? This government is presiding over the biggest economic collapse of my lifetime. And you want people to sit back and consider how it is afterwards? When a car careers toward you on the street, do you wait for experts to tell you to jump out of the way?
The countries who people are storming borders to gain access to ? If France is doing so well why want to come here ? If the USA is so bad why not stay in Mexico ?Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:18 amYou can see by the graph which countries got it wrong and surprise, it's the US and UK, the ones with the worst leaders.
No wonder they are calling Johnson the worst prime minister in history.
They told us not to listen to experts, so don’t ponce about with your fancy graphs. Everything is fine. Until two weeks from now. And let’s not even think about the second wave.Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:18 amYou can see by the graph which countries got it wrong and surprise, it's the US and UK, the ones with the worst leaders.
No wonder they are calling Johnson the worst prime minister in history.
He's not even trying to defend the numbers now, as it becomes abundantly clear were doing far worse than countries we watched go through this weeks ago. He can't defend the woeful plans which never mentioned ventilators or included testing, plans which were tested and found totally inadequate years ago but were not altered or updated.AndrewJB wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:11 amThey had nine weeks to prepare, and now we have this shambles. Johnson is evidence himself that if you throw enough glitter at a turd, it will eventually sparkle. And now you’re throwing rose petals in front of your master’s path. Where is Johnson? Isolation, okay, but what have you heard from your great leader? He hid in a fridge, and shirked the floods, and now he’s not being a leader again. I did say, he was once my supposed mayor. It’s rubbish, and you’re always the promoter of this rubbish. The supposed economic miracle with Sunak - people still have to pay rent and mortgages, and if they fall outside of help, what are they supposed to do? What are businesses supposed to do? This government is presiding over the biggest economic collapse of my lifetime. And you want people to sit back and consider how it is afterwards? When a car careers toward you on the street, do you wait for experts to tell you to jump out of the way?
I linked to an FT article discussing this a few pages back:thatdberight wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:32 pmYou would wonder what sort of a graph would compare the raw numbers of deaths in Netherlands and the USA. A not very well thought through one, that's for sure.
Insane that you begin a political football by calling it a communist disease. And then ask for it not to be a political football. So let’s consider your aftermath:bfcjg wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:26 amThis disease spread from the workers communist paradise so to blame democratic western governments for not being ready after a few weeks notice is somewhat lapse IMHO.
Mistakes have been made and lessons learned the NHS should have all they need at all times and after this the low tax regime will have to end. What sickens me is politicians and activists turning this onto a political football.
To be fair, the "they" you are talking about have such as visceral hatred of all Conservatives that every Tory Prime Minister is described during office as "the worst prime minister in history".Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:18 amYou can see by the graph which countries got it wrong and surprise, it's the US and UK, the ones with the worst leaders.
No wonder they are calling Johnson the worst prime minister in history.
I think if you want to say he’s not the worst PM in history, all you need to do is give evidence against it. So go ahead.dsr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:57 amTo be fair, the "they" you are talking about have such as visceral hatred of all Conservatives that every Tory Prime Minister is described during office as "the worst prime minister in history".
Do you know, I bet if you look hard enough, you will find some who called Johnson the worst prime minister in history even before the coronavirus. Some of which, it may be noted, wasn't his fault.
Are those your projections of the outcome of this?AndrewJB wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:56 amThe low tax regime for the extremely rich will have to end. In fact we should rethink whether we really need the extremely rich, or whether we’d be better off with only moderately rich people. The government will have to justify decisions they make on a “common good” basis. The government will have to be transparent about how and why they made their decisions during this crisis. The economy should be run for everyone equally.
I think if you want to say he’s not the worst PM in history, all you need to do is give evidence against it. So go ahead. Who was worse, and why?dsr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:57 amTo be fair, the "they" you are talking about have such as visceral hatred of all Conservatives that every Tory Prime Minister is described during office as "the worst prime minister in history".
Do you know, I bet if you look hard enough, you will find some who called Johnson the worst prime minister in history even before the coronavirus. Some of which, it may be noted, wasn't his fault.
This Prime Minister "insert current tory PM here" is the worst in history.Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:18 amYou can see by the graph which countries got it wrong and surprise, it's the US and UK, the ones with the worst leaders.
No wonder they are calling Johnson the worst prime minister in history.
I think this crisis has shown up the Neo liberal consensus as ludicrous. How would you describe the governments handling of the economy?
Are you judging over their entire career, or just the first 6 months? I'm not sure it's really possible to judge Johnson's full career until he's had it. Though you obviously have.
Are you looking at a Soviet Union-type command economy?AndrewJB wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:56 amThe low tax regime for the extremely rich will have to end. In fact we should rethink whether we really need the extremely rich, or whether we’d be better off with only moderately rich people. The government will have to justify decisions they make on a “common good” basis. The government will have to be transparent about how and why they made their decisions during this crisis. The economy should be run for everyone equally. Why is the government looking at bailing out rich billionaires when poor people are hungry?
bfcjg wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:26 amThis disease spread from the workers communist paradise so to blame democratic western governments for not being ready after a few weeks notice is somewhat lapse IMHO.
Mistakes have been made and lessons learned
the NHS should have all they need at all times and
after this the low tax regime will have to end.
What sickens me is politicians and activists turning this onto a political football.
Spill the beans.
Nothing but can we wait until we are in calm waters or do you want a public enquiry via Zoom?HieronymousBoschHobs wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:16 amWhat is Soviet about the government needing to be ‘transparent about how and why they made their decisions during this crisis’?
To much to address in that long ramble so I'll just go over the first few items.mdd2 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:14 amOh dear me. Unless folk on here are blaming the Government for this mess we are in would have sanctioned stopping folk coming here and leaving from mid January what should they have done. Please dont say test test test; at best this test misses 25% of folk who have it. Not a problem when a blind man on a galloping horse can spot Covid-19 in the very sick.
I think in the past few weeks there was a lot of people who still thought this was not really serious and were not taking this seriously, you only needed to drive to Tesco .Elizabeth wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:34 pmThe Office for National Statistics are trying to proportion the number of deaths cause specifically by the virus. I think this will be helpful.
At the moment anyone who dies with the virus in the body are added to the figure shown in the death graphs. This is even when they were in the process of dying anyway or the virus was not the major contributory factor in the death.
The resident experts will already know this of course but for some of us this type of understanding may be of use.
This is not to undermine the extreme seriousness of this awful virus.
He isn't, unless you can prove otherwise?Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:33 amFor voting for the worst prime minister in history.
The author says the sample size is too small, only 166 people. Also I thought we weren't allowed to believe China?NottsClaret wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:15 amSorry to interrupt a politics thread with some Covid19 news.. but another report suggesting this virus is far more widespread than we imagine already. If this is true, lockdowns are going to be causing huge damage for little reward.
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1375
In your opinion, how do you think the Spanish government is handling the crisis?Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:33 amFor voting for the worst prime minister in history.
Is that not the second time you have linked that report. I am not sure where your heading with this.NottsClaret wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:15 amSorry to interrupt a politics thread with some Covid19 news.. but another report suggesting this virus is far more widespread than we imagine already. If this is true, lockdowns are going to be causing huge damage for little reward.
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1375
The same people shouting about its death (while most people wonder what they're talking about) are the same people who were stood with their champagne ready on 12 December last year. Four months has been long enough for them to forget.randomclaret2 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:20 amIm sure people all over the couhtry at the moment are fretting over the neo-liberal concensus
"Argued" in the sense of "had a row about it". Definitely.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:39 am
I have argued long and hard it would be between 3-4% of the population which would be 2,000,000 to 2,500,000 .
Is it? Show me the two times.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:39 amIs that not the second time you have linked that report.
You've got lots of numbers. You start the bidding. Here's a simple question.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:39 amWhich outcome is little reward, saving a couple of hundred thousand or a few million???
Nope, it was a report in Iceland last time. Both too small sample sizes to be relied on but as far as I know, along with the cruise ship, they’re the only ones where everyone is tested regardless of symptoms.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:39 amIs that not the second time you have linked that report. I am not sure where your heading with this.
Sorry must have been someone else, but I have read it from a link on here.
The point I am trying to make is how many deaths are acceptable to people.thatdberight wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:44 am"Argued" in the sense of "had a row about it". Definitely.
"Argued" in the sense of given anyone a reason why a number a five year old could construct is better than the modelling of epidemiologists and medical experts?
Not so much. In fact not at all.
That’s a strange Question.thatdberight wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:51 amYou've got lots of numbers. You start the bidding. Here's a simple question.
What number of projected deaths would be too few to merit the current action being taken?
Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:09 amThe point I am trying to make is how many deaths are acceptable to people.
If people are arguing against lockdown , they are arguing to allow more deaths.
Again I don’t believe the so called experts, they have been wrong about just everything recently.
The experts are saying around 1% death rate, so is 660,000 deaths in the UK acceptable to you? if it is then an argument against lockdown is valid.
Answer the question. Stop squirming.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:13 amThat’s a strange Question.
The experts say 1% that’s 660,000. Sounds like your happy with that death rate??
20,000 to 40,000 deaths is what’s being planned for with the actions being taken, saving 620,000 people lives is I think is justified in having this lockdown.
I suspect the over 75's would prefer the lockdown to continue for 'several months' and the under 75's would go for 'a few more weeks then we'll take our chance'.NottsClaret wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:18 amThe fatality rate is less than 1% and a large number of those would not have survived another 12 months. The average age of death due to Covid19 is 79.5. The average life expectancy in the UK is 81.
These are horrible decisions to make and it’s easy to make emotional points about ‘how many do you want to die?’. But the NHS will need to be funded by us all over the next 10 years and we’re massively damaging our ability to do that right now.
How many deaths due to depression, stress, a crippled economy and reduced NHS funding do you think is acceptable? They might not appear in an easy to follow Sky News graphic just yet but they’ll be just as tragic and will play out over many years.