James Bulger - 27 years...

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daveyclaret
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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by daveyclaret » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:04 pm

And what if we execute someone who has been wrongfully convicted?

And don't say it doesn't happen in recent times, people are wrongfully convicted all the time.


And what if we don't execute someone who has been correctly convicted, done his/her time as sentenced, been released, and then kills again?

And don't say it doesn't happen in recent times, people who have killed once and been convicted have been known to kill again after been released.

Steve1956
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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Steve1956 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:09 pm

daveyclaret wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:04 pm
And what if we execute someone who has been wrongfully convicted?

And don't say it doesn't happen in recent times, people are wrongfully convicted all the time.


And what if we don't execute someone who has been correctly convicted, done his/her time as sentenced, been released, and then kills again?

And don't say it doesn't happen in recent times, people who have killed once and been convicted have been known to kill again after been released.
That's probably Venables next step murdering someone....again,a mystery to me why this prick Is a free man,should be rotting in some top security prison somewhere.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:15 pm

daveyclaret wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:04 pm
And what if we execute someone who has been wrongfully convicted?

And don't say it doesn't happen in recent times, people are wrongfully convicted all the time.


And what if we don't execute someone who has been correctly convicted, done his/her time as sentenced, been released, and then kills again?

And don't say it doesn't happen in recent times, people who have killed once and been convicted have been known to kill again after been released.
That's where the US has it right with whole life jail terms.
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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:51 pm

Steve1956 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:09 pm
That's probably Venables next step murdering someone....again,a mystery to me why this prick Is a free man,should be rotting in some top security prison somewhere.

:roll:

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by NewClaret » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:06 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:51 pm
:roll:
How anyone can offer any form of compassion for these two individuals is beyond me.

I think there are some crimes so repulsive the individuals involved don’t deserve any second chance. This is one of those cases because they denied a life to that poor, helpless child.

Whether they’re remorseful in future, or capable of living a crime free, respectable life is an irrelevance to me; they denied that right to little James and so should lose it themselves.
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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:10 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:06 pm
How anyone can offer any form of compassion for these two individuals is beyond me.

I think there are some crimes so repulsive the individuals involved don’t deserve any second chance. This is one of those cases because they denied a life to that poor, helpless child.

Whether they’re remorseful in future, or capable of living a crime free, respectable life is an irrelevance to me; they denied that right to little James and so should lose it themselves.
We'll have to send them round to eddie's house & let him look after them.
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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:11 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:06 pm
How anyone can offer any form of compassion for these two individuals is beyond me.

I think there are some crimes so repulsive the individuals involved don’t deserve any second chance. This is one of those cases because they denied a life to that poor, helpless child.

Whether they’re remorseful in future, or capable of living a crime free, respectable life is an irrelevance to me; they denied that right to little James and so should lose it themselves.
You're completely ignoring the fact they were kids themselves and their behaviour since being released.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by NewClaret » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:46 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:11 pm
You're completely ignoring the fact they were kids themselves and their behaviour since being released.
I don’t care. Nobody is telling me that at 10 years old someone does not know it is wrong to lead a toddler away from his parents, torture, murder them and leave their body on a train track.

The system in this country massively favours the perpetrators of a crime over the victims and their families.

In what world is it fair that they do that - gruesomely take a boys life - and aged 30-odd are free to get on with theirs?

Do you have kids mate?
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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:50 pm

It's absolutely despicable what happened to that young child & them boys were old enough to know better & furthermore they knew exactly what they were doing & should have been treat the same way as adults for that particular crime.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:57 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:46 pm
I don’t care. Nobody is telling me that at 10 years old someone does not know it is wrong to lead a toddler away from his parents, torture, murder them and leave their body on a train track.

The system in this country massively favours the perpetrators of a crime over the victims and their families.

In what world is it fair that they do that - gruesomely take a boys life - and aged 30-odd are free to get on with theirs?

Do you have kids mate?
I've got 3 kids.

18 and 16yr old boys
5yr old girl.

Thompson and Venables were handed sentances in accordance with the laws at the time, but what you're seemingly incapable of understanding is that it was pretty much the first time kids of that age were in court for murdering a young child.
There was no precedent.
They've got lifelong licences.

One has kept his head down and prison has done its job for him.

The other idiot will always reoffend because he doesn't care about what he did and this is where the system is failing.
He shouldn't be allowed out again.
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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by NewClaret » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:07 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:57 pm
I've got 3 kids.

18 and 16yr old boys
5yr old girl.

Thompson and Venables were handed sentances in accordance with the laws at the time, but what you're seemingly incapable of understanding is that it was pretty much the first time kids of that age were in court for murdering a young child.
There was no precedent.
They've got lifelong licences.

One has kept his head down and prison has done its job for him.

The other idiot will always reoffend because he doesn't care about what he did and this is where the system is failing.
He shouldn't be allowed out again.
I’m not I’m debating whether the sentences levied at time we’re in accordance with the law/precedent, I am talking about what the law should have been, and should be in future (there’s a valid argument if there were no legal precedent at that time, the courts should’ve been harsher to act as a deterrent, but I won’t go there).

So, on that basis, if someone did that to any of your children, would you be okay with them being let 20 years later to live their life, providing they didn’t commit any further crimes?

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:12 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:07 pm
I’m not I’m debating whether the sentences levied at time we’re in accordance with the law/precedent, I am talking about what the law should have been, and should be in future (there’s a valid argument if there were no legal precedent at that time, the courts should’ve been harsher to act as a deterrent, but I won’t go there).

So, on that basis, if someone did that to any of your children, would you be okay with them being let 20 years later to live their life, providing they didn’t commit any further crimes?
Many laws and punishments are based on precedents.
There wasn't one, so you saying you're not interested in debating what the laws at the time were etc is just stupid.

As for if it happened to me, therein lies the problem, you're using emotions instead of standing back and looking at it objectively.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Murger » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:33 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:45 am
Wow, just when you thought you'd read it all.

There's nothing like a death penalty discussion to bring out the weirdos. In my opinion, anyone who is in favour of killing another person is evil.
If somebody killed 1 of my kids, I wouldn't think twice about finishing somebody off.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Lee72 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:39 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:57 pm
you're seemingly incapable of understanding is that it was pretty much the first time kids of that age were in court for murdering a young child.
There was no precedent.
Not true at all.... one example of many, google 'Mary Bell'. She was out in 12 years for equally horrible crimes. I think the James Bulger case is so emotive because of the CCTV footage.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:43 pm

Murger wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:33 pm
If somebody killed 1 of my kids, I wouldn't think twice about finishing somebody off.

Full house !

:lol:

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by NewClaret » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:44 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:12 pm
Many laws and punishments are based on precedents.
There wasn't one, so you saying you're not interested in debating what the laws at the time were etc is just stupid.

As for if it happened to me, therein lies the problem, you're using emotions instead of standing back and looking at it objectively.
Obviously laws and punishments are set based on precedents. It doesn't mean they are right.

So, lets say it never happened, there is no precedent and it happened today - what punishment would you say was fair to issue to these two individuals? If you were judge, what sentence would you pass?

I would give them full life terms. That is because, in my view, if you take deliberately someone else's life you should lose your liberty, regardless if you are later deemed to be safe, etc. You can never give the person you have murdered a second chance at life, so I see no reason why a murderer should get one. Can you explain why you think they should?

Although for me it is not just about the victim. It is about their families who endure a life of suffering after a loved one is murdered. In my view, whilst it will never bring their loved one back or fill the void, they have a right to live safe in the knowledge their loved ones murderer is behind bars.

I am not being emotive. It's not happened to me or you (thankfully), so we can discuss it without emotion. It's a debate about whether the criminal justice system served the right punishment in this case.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:45 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:10 pm
We'll have to send them round to eddie's house & let him look after them.


Another of Jakub's cretinous and irrelevant efforts.

Send who round ? The one who has sorted his life out or the loser currently in jail ?

And why ?

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Murger » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:46 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:45 pm
Another of Jakub's cretinous and irrelevant efforts.

Send who round ? The one who has sorted his life out or the loser currently in jail ?

And why ?
And what about the scummy 1 who keeps getting let out, only to download more kiddy porn?

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:51 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:44 pm
Obviously laws and punishments are set based on precedents. It doesn't mean they are right.

So, lets say it never happened, there is no precedent and it happened today - what punishment would you say was fair to issue to these two individuals? If you were judge, what sentence would you pass?

I would give them full life terms. That is because, in my view, if you take deliberately someone else's life you should lose your liberty, regardless if you are later deemed to be safe, etc. You can never give the person you have murdered a second chance at life, so I see no reason why a murderer should get one. Can you explain why you think they should?

Although for me it is not just about the victim. It is about their families who endure a life of suffering after a loved one is murdered. In my view, whilst it will never bring their loved one back or fill the void, they have a right to live safe in the knowledge their loved ones murderer is behind bars.

I am not being emotive. It's not happened to me or you (thankfully), so we can discuss it without emotion. It's a debate about whether the criminal justice system served the right punishment in this case.
Punishment is based on Sentencing Guidelines and if your overwhelming criteria is the feelings of the family then you are being emotive.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:52 pm

As I said, Murger, the loser currently in jail.........................

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Murger » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:55 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:52 pm
As I said, Murger, the loser currently in jail.........................
He was released, caught with kiddy porn, jailed again. Then he's released and does it again. A no hoper who shouldn't ever see the light of day again.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:58 pm

Murger wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:55 pm
He was released, caught with kiddy porn, jailed again. Then he's released and does it again. A no hoper who shouldn't ever see the light of day again.
It speaks volumes when you've actually got people defending that kind of behavior as we are seeing today.
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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:01 pm

Who is defending "that kind of behaviour" ?
The bloke's back in jail, isn't he ?
The other one, to his credit, has turned his life round.
It speaks volumes that you and Steve 1956 are so desperately stupid.
Last edited by evensteadiereddie on Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by TVC15 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:03 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:58 pm
It speaks volumes when you've actually got people defending that kind of behavior as we are seeing today.
Who is defending it ?
Simple question - just post their names and the words which say they are defending that behaviour.

You may be mistaking “defending them” with not necessarily being in favour of your batshit crazy views of the public deciding to hang him in Trafalgar Square with Take That playing a gig in the background as part of a new Hanging Live Aid type event.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:16 pm

Lee72 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:39 pm
Not true at all.... one example of many, google 'Mary Bell'. She was out in 12 years for equally horrible crimes. I think the James Bulger case is so emotive because of the CCTV footage.
Cheers, I'd never heard of that case before, but it shows how often it happens.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:20 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:44 pm
Obviously laws and punishments are set based on precedents. It doesn't mean they are right.

So, lets say it never happened, there is no precedent and it happened today - what punishment would you say was fair to issue to these two individuals? If you were judge, what sentence would you pass?

I would give them full life terms. That is because, in my view, if you take deliberately someone else's life you should lose your liberty, regardless if you are later deemed to be safe, etc. You can never give the person you have murdered a second chance at life, so I see no reason why a murderer should get one. Can you explain why you think they should?

Although for me it is not just about the victim. It is about their families who endure a life of suffering after a loved one is murdered. In my view, whilst it will never bring their loved one back or fill the void, they have a right to live safe in the knowledge their loved ones murderer is behind bars.

I am not being emotive. It's not happened to me or you (thankfully), so we can discuss it without emotion. It's a debate about whether the criminal justice system served the right punishment in this case.
They were given a punishment appropriate for the time.
It doesn't mean it was right or wrong for today, the real issue now is one of the scrotes keeps reoffending and keeps being released.
I suspect he would kill again and have no remorse for it.

As for being put in the position of a judge, sentencing kids is always difficult, but they weren't given a set time in prison.
It was at Her Majesty's Pleasure, so there is no set time.
A Parole board decided they should be release on lifetime licence.

The family would feel less tormented if the scrote who keeps reoffending was just kept behind bars now, especially as he's clearly a paedophile etc.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Walkerpool » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:25 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:37 am
Lee Rigby killers didn’t receive any money.
The legal aid cost over £200000
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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:41 pm

Walkerpool wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:25 pm
The legal aid cost over £200000
So Lee Rugby’s killers didn’t receive any money.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Lowbankclaret » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:59 pm

Walkerpool wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:25 pm
The legal aid cost over £200000
Legal aid needs to be overhauled, there should be a cap on costs, maybe 20k.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:08 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:59 pm
Legal aid needs to be overhauled, there should be a cap on costs, maybe 20k.
Perhaps the defence should be allowed to charge the same amount as the cost of the prosecution, then both sides would be equal.

Would you want to cap the amount the prosecution costs?

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by conyoviejo » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:23 pm

It would be interesting to know how much it has cost so far to keep these two in custody and alias changes. Hmm.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:25 pm

It would.
Money well spent, too.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by ClaretAndJew » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:30 pm

Everyone that's born that looks slightly like they will be evil should be bunged in the oven.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:43 pm

conyoviejo wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:23 pm
It would be interesting to know how much it has cost so far to keep these two in custody and alias changes. Hmm.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/88391 ... yer-prison
That's just for 1, estimated £5 million pound, see attached for breakdown in costs.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:50 pm

Excellent value.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:45 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:50 pm
Excellent value.
You could try explaining that assessment to the little boys parents & see if they share the same opinion.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by evensteadiereddie » Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:47 pm

Well, you have a word with them and get back to me. I don't know either of them personally.

I think it's excellent value because one of the kids grew up into a decent human being. The other did not and is paying the price for it. Two different results that show our civilised system is working.

The added bonus is, of course, that stuff like this infuriates creeps like you.

Win, win.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Boss Hogg » Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:08 pm

‘.... a decent human being ....’

An alarming post
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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:34 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:47 pm
Well, you have a word with them and get back to me. I don't know either of them personally.

I think it's excellent value because one of the kids grew up into a decent human being. The other did not and is paying the price for it. Two different results that show our civilised system is working.

The added bonus is, of course, that stuff like this infuriates creeps like you.

Win, win.
How can something which costs over £5 million pounds with a 50% success rate be beneficial towards any civilised system, spending that kind of money in terms of rehabilitation you would expect 100%, it's only 2 people!

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by NewClaret » Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:49 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:47 pm
Well, you have a word with them and get back to me. I don't know either of them personally.

I think it's excellent value because one of the kids grew up into a decent human being. The other did not and is paying the price for it. Two different results that show our civilised system is working.

The added bonus is, of course, that stuff like this infuriates creeps like you.

Win, win.
James Bulgers mum was on TV last night and made the very relevant point that we don’t know what kind of life Thompson is living because he has a new identity and could well be getting away with other misdemeanours. All we know is he hasn’t been caught or re-imprisoned.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:57 pm

The sex offenders register needs to be accessible by all parents not necessarily public access, the information should be available so the parents can mitigate any risk assessments.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Boss Hogg » Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:00 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:57 pm
The sex offenders register needs to be accessible by all parents not necessarily public access, the information should be available so the parents can mitigate any risk assessments.
People need to know if there are predators living near them. The fact remains they should never be released as they don’t get better.
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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Bosscat » Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:54 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:47 pm
Well, you have a word with them and get back to me. I don't know either of them personally.

I think it's excellent value because one of the kids grew up into a decent human being. The other did not and is paying the price for it. Two different results that show our civilised system is working.

The added bonus is, of course, that stuff like this infuriates creeps like you.

Win, win.
Jesus wept "the buggers a child killer" ... bloody hell Eddie thats scraping the bottom of the pond ...

Someone said "what an alarming post"

Its worse than that when you consider on other threads posts are being deleted for jokey insults....

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:10 pm

Bosscat wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:54 pm
Jesus wept "the buggers a child killer" ... bloody hell Eddie thats scraping the bottom of the pond ...

Someone said "what an alarming post"

Its worse than that when you consider on other threads posts are being deleted for jokey insults....
I have no idea whether it applies in this case, but is it not possible that somebody who committed a heinous crime at the age of ten can turn into a decent human being?

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:13 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:49 pm
James Bulgers mum was on TV last night and made the very relevant point that we don’t know what kind of life Thompson is living because he has a new identity and could well be getting away with other misdemeanours. All we know is he hasn’t been caught or re-imprisoned.
We don't know, but the relevant authorities do.

He's living with his fella, I've seen that reported and he's living a quiet life.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:15 pm

Boss Hogg wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:00 pm
People need to know if there are predators living near them. The fact remains they should never be released as they don’t get better.
You can get put on the list for something that genuinely wasn't your fault.

I can only assume you've forgotten about the coach Burnley employed for a while, who'd been on the list.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:25 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:10 pm
I have no idea whether it applies in this case, but is it not possible that somebody who committed a heinous crime at the age of ten can turn into a decent human being?
If you don’t have any idea why are you exploring that possibility, the benefit of the doubt seems to sway towards the assumption that that’s possible even though over £5 million pound as been spent & the other murderer as gone on a downwards spiral it’s reasonable to assume the other as gone the same way but on a more gradual decline & far less noticeable.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:29 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:25 pm
If you don’t have any idea why are you exploring that possibility, the benefit of the doubt seems to sway towards the assumption that that’s possible even though over £5 million pound as been spent & the other murderer as gone on a downwards spiral it’s reasonable to assume the other as gone the same way but on a more gradual decline & far less noticeable.
Why is it reasonable to assume that?
He's monitored, regularly.
The fact he's not seen the inside of a police station since his release must be a real disappointment to you.

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:38 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:25 pm
If you don’t have any idea why are you exploring that possibility, the benefit of the doubt seems to sway towards the assumption that that’s possible even though over £5 million pound as been spent & the other murderer as gone on a downwards spiral it’s reasonable to assume the other as gone the same way but on a more gradual decline & far less noticeable.
I’m not exploring any possibility, I was responding to someone else who suggested that someone couldn’t be a decent person because of something they did when they were 10.

And what does the £5m have to do with anything? What would your solution have been that would have reduced that cost? I’m not sure I actually want to know but here goes...

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Re: James Bulger - 27 years...

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:39 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:25 pm
If you don’t have any idea why are you exploring that possibility, the benefit of the doubt seems to sway towards the assumption that that’s possible even though over £5 million pound as been spent & the other murderer as gone on a downwards spiral it’s reasonable to assume the other as gone the same way but on a more gradual decline & far less noticeable.
Why is it a grown man who makes mistakes leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of people is forgiven, and a ten year old boy who makes mistakes leading to one death isn’t, in your eyes?

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