Cabinet Carnage

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
AndrewJB
Posts: 2861
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 939 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:19 pm

Gordaleman wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:33 am
One thing is for sure. We won't be in control of our own destiny. We will now be even more of an insignificant small island. :(
Welcome to my clique, Gordaleman. Our scepticism is apparently the cause of all our country's ills, such is our power! It wasn't an iceberg that sank the Titanic, nor the hubris of those who called it "unsinkable" - but the negativity of a minority of the passengers on board, who just didn't believe hard enough.

android
Posts: 360
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:01 am
Been Liked: 68 times
Has Liked: 16 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by android » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:59 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:48 pm
and the constant smearing of Corbyn as "anti-Semitic" when he's never uttered an anti-Semitic remark in his life (as compared to Scruton who dived in at the deep end). A far greater degree of thought-policiing goes on via the right wing media, yet you appear to be blind to this.
Speaking of blindness, I see you are still at it Andrew, even now! Corbyn was caught out making clear anti-Semitic remarks, although obviously you were not interested, as UTC's chief Corbyn propagandist!
This user liked this post: KateR

KateR
Posts: 1544
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 303 times
Has Liked: 2197 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by KateR » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:25 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:19 pm
Welcome to my clique, Gordaleman. Our scepticism is apparently the cause of all our country's ills, such is our power! It wasn't an iceberg that sank the Titanic, nor the hubris of those who called it "unsinkable" - but the negativity of a minority of the passengers on board, who just didn't believe hard enough.
Andrew, you know my thoughts about you and yes I have before referred to "your clique", which is my terminology for you and your like minded posters because you all sit in one very square box surrounded by your negativity trying to shoot holes and decry everything and everybody.

In some instances I agree with you but admittedly not often and as I've tried to explain previously when you keep banging the big drum with the same monotonous tone it gets very boring and your posts get predictable and actually lose any meaning. In this way I see your name and know what your thoughts will be, I did ask you once before to try and see some positives and provided links to you regarding them, your reply being good words but little else so we will wait and see.

How about things like the pound being up, how about beating inflation, how about wages being back up above the financial crash including the inflation calculation, (clearly and I agree it has taken to long, but hardly BJ's fault), how about consumer confidence being up, how about the planned changes to immigration, your thoughts, good and bad.

Just a little more objectivity from your clique would go a long way to you presenting a meaningful post that might help me think, "ohh never thought of that". Sorry it's definitely not scepticism, it's bigotry of the worst kind, hence why it's boring and has little to no enlightenment or thought process.

I probably, no definitely should just not read your posts and go past, however my nature is just not that way and I will continue to try and bring you to light side from the dark forces that seem to have consumed you.
These 2 users liked this post: BennyD Colburn_Claret

BennyD
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:10 am
Been Liked: 1219 times
Has Liked: 600 times
Location: Nantwich

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by BennyD » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:41 pm

KateR, I’ve given you a like because of your thought process, not because you are trying to civilise AndrewJB.
This user liked this post: KateR

AndrewJB
Posts: 2861
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 939 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:29 pm

android wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:59 pm
Speaking of blindness, I see you are still at it Andrew, even now! Corbyn was caught out making clear anti-Semitic remarks, although obviously you were not interested, as UTC's chief Corbyn propagandist!
I don't think defending him against straw-man smears (the press were desperate to avoid talking about actual policy) is quite the same as propagandizing for him, but perhaps it's because I never joined the demonisation of Corbyn bandwagon like lots of people did? He said himself a million times he's against anti-semitism, so someone will have to remind you that speaking up for Palestinian freedom, or against the actions of the Israeli government isn't anti-Semitic.

Vino blanco
Posts: 2758
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:42 pm
Been Liked: 917 times
Has Liked: 686 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Vino blanco » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:54 pm

It's such a shame we have a press in the UK, otherwise Corbyn would now be PM.

AndrewJB
Posts: 2861
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 939 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:41 pm

KateR wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:25 pm
Andrew, you know my thoughts about you and yes I have before referred to "your clique", which is my terminology for you and your like minded posters because you all sit in one very square box surrounded by your negativity trying to shoot holes and decry everything and everybody.

In some instances I agree with you but admittedly not often and as I've tried to explain previously when you keep banging the big drum with the same monotonous tone it gets very boring and your posts get predictable and actually lose any meaning. In this way I see your name and know what your thoughts will be, I did ask you once before to try and see some positives and provided links to you regarding them, your reply being good words but little else so we will wait and see.

How about things like the pound being up, how about beating inflation, how about wages being back up above the financial crash including the inflation calculation, (clearly and I agree it has taken to long, but hardly BJ's fault), how about consumer confidence being up, how about the planned changes to immigration, your thoughts, good and bad.

Just a little more objectivity from your clique would go a long way to you presenting a meaningful post that might help me think, "ohh never thought of that". Sorry it's definitely not scepticism, it's bigotry of the worst kind, hence why it's boring and has little to no enlightenment or thought process.

I probably, no definitely should just not read your posts and go past, however my nature is just not that way and I will continue to try and bring you to light side from the dark forces that seem to have consumed you.
None of us owe anyone else here anything, but what I've always tried to bring to conversations like this is my honest opinion, as well as civility. I accept that my honest opinion won't always find agreement with other people, or might not be welcomed or easy on the eye, but it is what it is with the limited intellect I have, a product of mental endeavour. If I were to attempt (for example) to write a paean celebrating the rise to high office of someone I consider to be a privileged and boorish oaf, you would see through it immediately. The words would ring as hollow as Johnson's own unscripted promises, and fall as flat as his "big ideas".

You claim to be looking for objectivity, but you've never been interested in that when people have gone apoplectic on here claiming the opposition party was in league with Britain's enemies, or that the opposition parties were going to utterly bankrupt the country by taking back control of our own railways and utilities - and the many other frankly preposterous claims made by people on here (radicalised by the Daily Mail). Had things been different, and Corbyn was PM, do you think the people on here who see him as the devil incarnate would have begun posting positive threads about how nice it is to finally get superfast broadband, "and free too!"? They'd be all over every little thing that went wrong - and fair play to them, if big things went wrong, I'd not be happy either. So when you're asking for objectivity, and as someone who I've seen reject Guardian links (presumably as not objective), what you're actually asking for is me to come over to your way of seeing things, and you're not offering anything in return with regard to what you write.
These 2 users liked this post: Greenmile KateR

AndrewJB
Posts: 2861
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 939 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:45 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:54 pm
It's such a shame we have a press in the UK, otherwise Corbyn would now be PM.
With such a low bar on the definition of "press" you'd be right at home in the Soviet Union with Pravda.

Vino blanco
Posts: 2758
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:42 pm
Been Liked: 917 times
Has Liked: 686 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Vino blanco » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:47 pm

I think it's Corbyn who would be more at home in the Soviet Union with Pravda.

Spijed
Posts: 10790
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 1933 times
Has Liked: 839 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Spijed » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:52 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:47 pm
I think it's Corbyn who would be more at home in the Soviet Union with Pravda.
Why? Considering it's Boris Johnson who is doing all he can to suppress the report on Russian interference in the election.

It's clearly obvious the government have lots to hide in that respect.

AndrewJB
Posts: 2861
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 939 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:13 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:47 pm
I think it's Corbyn who would be more at home in the Soviet Union with Pravda.
Radicalised by the Daily Mail. The headlines are revealing by which papers aren't going with the stories. The Times and the FT are there, so it can't all be lefty propaganda...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=049N ... CAs&uact=5

Vino blanco
Posts: 2758
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:42 pm
Been Liked: 917 times
Has Liked: 686 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Vino blanco » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:16 pm

I haven't bought or read a newspaper in five or six years: "I can gather all the news I need from the weather report".

LeadBelly
Posts: 2259
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:07 am
Been Liked: 610 times
Has Liked: 1220 times
Location: North Hampshire

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by LeadBelly » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:28 pm

The only living boy in Duke Bar.
This user liked this post: Vino blanco

AndrewJB
Posts: 2861
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 939 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:29 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:16 pm
I haven't bought or read a newspaper in five or six years: "I can gather all the news I need from the weather report".
Just as I thought. Exposed to the Murdoch owned SKY weather channel, and their unbalanced and over the top anti-socialist reporting of the weather. :)
This user liked this post: Vino blanco

Gordaleman
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 220 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Gordaleman » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:37 pm

KateR wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:59 pm
well you're just a barrel of laughs aren't you!! Plus a few other things along with Andrew, continually be wrong is right in line with most of his clique, which fell by the wayside when they realized they were in fact a minority but you must be one of his new members or maybe the same, just with a different user name.

I'm my own man with my only user name and my own views as well.

Just because you have a particular, probably naive view of the world, does not make you right on this, or anything else.

Most 'Leavers' go on about the economy being just fine, but they don't seem to realise that we are still trading under the same rules at the moment, and we will be until the end of the year. Just watch the pound, which has already fallen, fall a lot more as 'No deal' becomes more likely. You'll probably be the first to complain when your foreign holidays shoot up in price and food prices do the same.

If we do leave with 'No deal', we will be at the mercy of any country, particular America, who will realise that we need deals at any cost.

Goodbye NHS, hello chlorininated chicken.

Vino blanco
Posts: 2758
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:42 pm
Been Liked: 917 times
Has Liked: 686 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Vino blanco » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:41 pm

Were you a remainer Gordaleman? No don't tell me, let me guess.

Greenmile
Posts: 2321
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 728 times
Has Liked: 2396 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Greenmile » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:42 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:26 pm
I shouldn’t really, but......

1. Right wing - nope. Economically left, socially slightly right of middle (hence I am tolerant and compassionate, unlike the socially far-left hyper-liberals).
2. He didn’t say anything, he wrote it (hence we do not know the circumstances) and in any event I didn’t defend it.
3. I also didn’t say he was suitable material for a government advisor - I said that is for the government to decide.
4. I can easily prove no hypocrisy by never having claimed Labour should sack Seamus Milne for views I for one think are abhorrent (one, they are views not actions, and two, he is not an elected official so does not have to meet those standards - we can of course feel free not to elect those who are advised by someone with those views, and guess what, we just did).
5. Sir Roger Scruton (your later reply) was one of the greatest living Britons who had more compassion than all of us out together. He died only a few weeks ago and I for one was taught never to speak ill of the dead.

Must do better if you want to play with the adults. I’ll be crossing you off my Christmas card list at this rate.

The intolerance of today’s hyper-liberal is breathtaking, shutting down opinion and conversation in any form. More high de-coupling needed.
Yeah, you’re definitely coming across as “socially slightly right of middle” by describing someone who said we should “instil in our children feelings of revulsion towards homosexuality” as one of the greatest living Britons (despite the fact that he’s, erm, dead) and people who don’t agree with you as “far left hyper-liberals”. I see they’ve not managed to shut down your opinion or conversation yet. Funny that.

And why were you taught not to speak ill of the dead? Would you criticise Jeffrey Epstein yet, for example? Or do you have to pretend he was a great bloke (maybe even one of the greatest living Americans?) until he’s been in the ground for a bit longer?
This user liked this post: longsidepies

Gordaleman
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 220 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Gordaleman » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:50 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:41 pm
Were you a remainer Gordaleman? No don't tell me, let me guess.
Your guess is wrong. For the first time in my 72 years, I didn't use my vote in the referendum. Why? Simple. I didn't consider myself well enough qualified to know more about our role in the EU than our elected representatives. I suppose I was a bit naive there as all we got was rhetoric and lies from both sides, and in particular from Boris Johnson and Michael Gove.

Two years later, I had learned a lot, and not just from the right wing press. With that information, I would, in retrospect, have voted to stay within the EU. Not because I'm not a racist, (The reason many people voted to leave.) but because I believe that being part of Europe is the right thing for the young people of Britain. They voted hugely in favour of staying and Boris is going to sh*t on them.

KateR
Posts: 1544
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 303 times
Has Liked: 2197 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by KateR » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:58 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:41 pm
None of us owe anyone else here anything, but what I've always tried to bring to conversations like this is my honest opinion, as well as civility. I accept that my honest opinion won't always find agreement with other people, or might not be welcomed or easy on the eye, but it is what it is with the limited intellect I have, a product of mental endeavour. If I were to attempt (for example) to write a paean celebrating the rise to high office of someone I consider to be a privileged and boorish oaf, you would see through it immediately. The words would ring as hollow as Johnson's own unscripted promises, and fall as flat as his "big ideas".

You claim to be looking for objectivity, but you've never been interested in that when people have gone apoplectic on here claiming the opposition party was in league with Britain's enemies, or that the opposition parties were going to utterly bankrupt the country by taking back control of our own railways and utilities - and the many other frankly preposterous claims made by people on here (radicalised by the Daily Mail). Had things been different, and Corbyn was PM, do you think the people on here who see him as the devil incarnate would have begun posting positive threads about how nice it is to finally get superfast broadband, "and free too!"? They'd be all over every little thing that went wrong - and fair play to them, if big things went wrong, I'd not be happy either. So when you're asking for objectivity, and as someone who I've seen reject Guardian links (presumably as not objective), what you're actually asking for is me to come over to your way of seeing things, and you're not offering anything in return with regard to what you write.
Fair enough Andrew, I have certainly said that the Guardian Links are so obvious I don't open many but I have read quite a few, at the same time I have said that the Daily Mail for example is equally blinkered in the wrong way.

Additionally I did say in the build up to the election that I thought the early part of the Labour Manifest was very good and tempting and it could be a close election with the population obviously liking much what was on offer. I also stated days/weeks whatever later that I thought they'd got someone from every walk of life in a room and asked what would you like, ok let's add that to the Manifesto. They simply went a step to far and it became meaningless in that there was no reasonable way to implement and therefore the whole Manifesto became suspect and unworkable.

I have said when I thought Tories were wrong, and they are numerous times, they are not perfect but firmly believe with what we had at the election time they were the only viable option and they we did not have much of an option in reality, I would say the same outside any Brexit discussion at that time. They obviously won a large majority and need to implement numerous things, difficult things under difficult circumstance in a short period, I "try" to look and give a balanced view of what I say, clearly numerous experts up to now have been proved anything but somethings will work and be ok/good, but some wont.

I don't want you to come to my way of thinking, I just wish you would be less in your total condemnation of everything Tory and Brexit, they can't be wrong and bad in everything they do, can they? :)

KateR
Posts: 1544
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 303 times
Has Liked: 2197 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by KateR » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:18 am

Gordaleman wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:37 pm
I'm my own man with my only user name and my own views as well.

Just because you have a particular, probably naive view of the world, does not make you right on this, or anything else.

Most 'Leavers' go on about the economy being just fine, but they don't seem to realise that we are still trading under the same rules at the moment, and we will be until the end of the year. Just watch the pound, which has already fallen, fall a lot more as 'No deal' becomes more likely. You'll probably be the first to complain when your foreign holidays shoot up in price and food prices do the same.

If we do leave with 'No deal', we will be at the mercy of any country, particular America, who will realise that we need deals at any cost.

Goodbye NHS, hello chlorininated chicken.
I really didn't mean to offend you, so I apologise if I did.

I don't believe I am naïve, wrong sometimes, just like everyone else, I completely get we are still trading under the same rules and laws. However I (and the markets) also know there is a change coming, a big change, what the change ends up as, no one knows, however consumer and business confidence for the most part has improved. Given that plus, I have confidence in the present Gov. to make the "best" deal they can, then I will stick with my version against your views, which of course just maybe could be wrong, same as mine could be. I have always maintained for years that not everyone can perceive or understand the effects on different groups, Fishermen/Famers/Car Workers/Financial Services, etc. will all feel different under the change, it cant be good for all or bad for all.

Regarding the pound I was and have advised in terms of sell your pounds, buy Euros, sell your Euros and pounds buy US$, and before the election I said to sell Euro and US$ and buy pounds. It has always fluctuated and it always will fluctuate and that is a fact regardless of what you think, we maintain both pound and US$ accounts and use whichever is best at the time, obviously I recognize that not everyone can do that but I definitely will not be moaning about the cost of my holiday. Holiday at home or abroad is another complicated subject for a different debate but no one is forced to go aboard on there holidays.

Your "goodbye NHS and Chlorinated Chicken" are just platitudes with absolutely no substance what so ever, I have been eating chlorinated chickens for years, if they are on the shelves no one, not one single person has to buy them. It's what trade is all about, they can TRY to sell what they want for all I care. The US firms will soon stop sending items if no one is buying. NHS is about prescriptions mainly, if they're to expensive don't buy them, there will be alternatives.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 5635
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1380 times
Has Liked: 2541 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:38 am

Gordaleman wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:50 pm
Your guess is wrong. For the first time in my 72 years, I didn't use my vote in the referendum.
Are you really 90 years old? If so I reckon you might be the board's oldest poster.
This user liked this post: tim_noone

Gordaleman
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 220 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Gordaleman » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:40 am

nil_desperandum wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:38 am
Are you really 90 years old? If so I reckon you might be the board's oldest poster.
I just knew that some wag would interpret what I said, that way. :)

So much for trying to make a serious point.

Quickenthetempo
Posts: 9529
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am
Been Liked: 2123 times
Has Liked: 1208 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:42 am

nil_desperandum wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:38 am
Are you really 90 years old? If so I reckon you might be the board's oldest poster.
Defo a previous poster who has just changed names.
This user liked this post: tim_noone

Gordaleman
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 220 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Gordaleman » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:54 am

KateR wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:18 am
I really didn't mean to offend you, so I apologise if I did.

I don't believe I am naïve, wrong sometimes, just like everyone else, I completely get we are still trading under the same rules and laws. However I (and the markets) also know there is a change coming, a big change, what the change ends up as, no one knows, however consumer and business confidence for the most part has improved. Given that plus, I have confidence in the present Gov. to make the "best" deal they can, then I will stick with my version against your views, which of course just maybe could be wrong, same as mine could be. I have always maintained for years that not everyone can perceive or understand the effects on different groups, Fishermen/Famers/Car Workers/Financial Services, etc. will all feel different under the change, it cant be good for all or bad for all.

Regarding the pound I was and have advised in terms of sell your pounds, buy Euros, sell your Euros and pounds buy US$, and before the election I said to sell Euro and US$ and buy pounds. It has always fluctuated and it always will fluctuate and that is a fact regardless of what you think, we maintain both pound and US$ accounts and use whichever is best at the time, obviously I recognize that not everyone can do that but I definitely will not be moaning about the cost of my holiday. Holiday at home or abroad is another complicated subject for a different debate but no one is forced to go aboard on there holidays.

Your "goodbye NHS and Chlorinated Chicken" are just platitudes with absolutely no substance what so ever, I have been eating chlorinated chickens for years, if they are on the shelves no one, not one single person has to buy them. It's what trade is all about, they can TRY to sell what they want for all I care. The US firms will soon stop sending items if no one is buying. NHS is about prescriptions mainly, if they're to expensive don't buy them, there will be alternatives.

Platitudes or facts? The truth is, no one knows at the moment. What is certain is that Boris intends to come out of Europe with 'No deal'. That's been obvious for a long time now. Why? Good question. Probably because his rich city backers will make an absolute fortune on the back of America ripping us of when we have to give them exactly what they want.

I don't pretend to be clever enough to know all the 'Ins and outs' about how they will do it, but I do know that it's super rich individuals and mega companies that run the world these days, and they don't do it for the benefit of people like you and I.

Remember George Soros? Known as "The Man Who Broke the Bank of England" because of his short sale of US$10 billion worth of pounds sterling, which made him a profit of $1 billion during the 1992 Black Wednesday UK currency crisis. He didn't care how much he hurt Britain, or individual Britons. Similarly, today's mega billionaires will do the same thing if it benefits them. And a hard Brexit will suit them down to the ground.

A lot of very stubborn 'Leavers' are probably regretting their votes right now, but will never admit it.

Gordaleman
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 220 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Gordaleman » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:00 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:42 am
Defo a previous poster who has just changed names.
Wrong. Ask Bosscat or Houseclaret.
Last edited by Gordaleman on Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Corky
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:37 pm
Been Liked: 386 times
Has Liked: 306 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Corky » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:09 am

Hi KateR

Up until this little bombshell

"NHS is about prescriptions mainly, if they're to expensive don't buy them, there will be alternatives"

I had found your discussions with AndrewJB very refreshing.

You state that you do not think that you are naive but accept that you can get things wrong. Don't we all. But to say the above about the NHS is in my view breathtakingly naive.

Gordaleman
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 220 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Gordaleman » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:13 am

Corky wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:09 am
Hi KateR

Up until this little bombshell

"NHS is about prescriptions mainly, if they're to expensive don't buy them, there will be alternatives"

I had found your discussions with AndrewJB very refreshing.

You state that you do not think that you are naive but accept that you can get things wrong. Don't we all. But to say the above about the NHS is in my view breathtakingly naive.
I wonder if you, or Kate realise that the pharmacies in hospitals have already been sold to the Americans? Thin end of the wedge?

Gordaleman
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 220 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Gordaleman » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:17 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:19 pm
Welcome to my clique, Gordaleman. Our scepticism is apparently the cause of all our country's ills, such is our power! It wasn't an iceberg that sank the Titanic, nor the hubris of those who called it "unsinkable" - but the negativity of a minority of the passengers on board, who just didn't believe hard enough.
I don't belong to ANY cliques. Yours or anyone elses. I'm my own man with my own views and at 72 years old, a lot more years of experience than most on here.
This user liked this post: nil_desperandum

IanMcL
Posts: 16891
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:27 pm
Been Liked: 3388 times
Has Liked: 3878 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by IanMcL » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:39 am

Vino blanco wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:47 pm
I think it's Corbyn who would be more at home in the Soviet Union with Pravda.
He does like a good manbag!

IanMcL
Posts: 16891
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:27 pm
Been Liked: 3388 times
Has Liked: 3878 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by IanMcL » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:41 am

Petty prattle reaping havoc now.
Soon be no care homes. Parents will have to be cared for by family! Whatever next!

Clarets4me
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 1483 times
Has Liked: 632 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Clarets4me » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:50 am

Gordaleman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:13 am
I wonder if you, or Kate realise that the pharmacies in hospitals have already been sold to the Americans? Thin end of the wedge?
That's just one little change that could be implemented, that would reduce waiting times in hospitals ...

Prescriptions issued to patients be discharged have to be filled by the Hospital pharmacy, on several occasions, I've waited for well over an hour for the drugs to arrive on a ward before taking a relative home. It should be possible to sign a quick form confirming that you'll pick them up at a local pharmacy, and get on your way, thus freeing up the bed earlier. Just a thought !

Gordaleman
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 220 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Gordaleman » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:10 am

Clarets4me wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:50 am
That's just one little change that could be implemented, that would reduce waiting times in hospitals ...

Prescriptions issued to patients be discharged have to be filled by the Hospital pharmacy, on several occasions, I've waited for well over an hour for the drugs to arrive on a ward before taking a relative home. It should be possible to sign a quick form confirming that you'll pick them up at a local pharmacy, and get on your way, thus freeing up the bed earlier. Just a thought !
That COULD be implemented? It's already a fact, so if your prescription is delayed, blame the American company running the pharmacies.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/busi ... 22064.html

LloydsPharmacy is a British pharmacy company, with more than 1,500 pharmacies. It has around 17,000 staff and dispenses over 150 million prescription items annually. It is owned by the German company Celesio, formerly GEHE AG, which is in turn owned by the American McKesson Corporation.

Read the article above. Private companies are also allowed to reclaim 20% VAT which NHS pharmacies aren't.

Don't just read headlines, look for FACTS.
Last edited by Gordaleman on Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Corky
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:37 pm
Been Liked: 386 times
Has Liked: 306 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Corky » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:24 am

Gordaleman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:13 am
I wonder if you, or Kate realise that the pharmacies in hospitals have already been sold to the Americans? Thin end of the wedge?
That was sort of my point Gordaleman. You may be 72 but come on keep up man :D

Large chunks of the NHS have already been privatised through outsourcing therefore just to concentrate on prescriptions seemed highly naive.

Gordaleman
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 220 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Gordaleman » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:28 am

Corky wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:24 am
That was sort of my point Gordaleman. You may be 72 but come on keep up man :D

Large chunks of the NHS have already been privatised through outsourcing therefore just to concentrate on prescriptions seemed highly naive.

I'm well aware of that but it would be impossible to give every example on here. People just don't see the fact that American companies though subsiduary companies like Lloyds, are exploiting the NHS for all they can get. It will only get worse under a Johnson /Trump alliance.

Clarets4me
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 1483 times
Has Liked: 632 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Clarets4me » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:11 pm

Gordaleman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:10 am
That COULD be implemented? It's already a fact, so if your prescription is delayed, blame the American company running the pharmacies.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/busi ... 22064.html

LloydsPharmacy is a British pharmacy company, with more than 1,500 pharmacies. It has around 17,000 staff and dispenses over 150 million prescription items annually. It is owned by the German company Celesio, formerly GEHE AG, which is in turn owned by the American McKesson Corporation.
Read the article above. Private companies are also allowed to reclaim 20% VAT which NHS pharmacies aren't.
I perhaps didn't phrase it very well, my point was about freeing up beds for patients earlier ...

You, like many on the left, obsess about means rather than ends, about who provides the service and whether it's ideologically pure, rather than the results for patients. I presume you're aware than GP practices are virtually all privately owned, and are service providers to the various Trusts ..

Gordaleman
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 220 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Gordaleman » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:30 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:11 pm
I perhaps didn't phrase it very well, my point was about freeing up beds for patients earlier ...

You, like many on the left, obsess about means rather than ends, about who provides the service and whether it's ideologically pure, rather than the results for patients. I presume you're aware than GP practices are virtually all privately owned, and are service providers to the various Trusts ..
Yes, I'm well aware of privatisation by stealth. If it was such a good thing for patients, why are'nt the Tories bragging about it instead of doing it quietly and in an underhand way? Giving private companies a 20% hand out in the process is not exactly a level playing field.

As for my politics, you don't know me, so don't call me a 'Leftie'. My politics are what is right for people (Not rich billionaires and multi national companies.) and just because I think it's a mistake leaving the EU, doesn't make me a 'On the left'.

Clarets4me
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 1483 times
Has Liked: 632 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Clarets4me » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:34 pm

Gordaleman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:30 pm
Yes, I'm well aware of privatisation by stealth. If it was such a good thing for patients, why are'nt the Tories bragging about it instead of doing it quietly and in an underhand way? Giving private companies a 20% hand out in the process is not exactly a level playing field.

As for my politics, you don't know me, so don't call me a 'Leftie'. My politics are what is right for people (Not rich billionaires and multi national companies.) and just because I think it's a mistake leaving the EU, doesn't make me a 'On the left'.
OK, sorry about that, Comrade ! ;)

KateR
Posts: 1544
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 303 times
Has Liked: 2197 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by KateR » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:43 pm

Corky wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:09 am
Hi KateR

Up until this little bombshell

"NHS is about prescriptions mainly, if they're to expensive don't buy them, there will be alternatives"

I had found your discussions with AndrewJB very refreshing.

You state that you do not think that you are naive but accept that you can get things wrong. Don't we all. But to say the above about the NHS is in my view breathtakingly naive.
Corky, just for the benefit of all please try to understand, I used to work for an American, Fortune 500 Company, they have offices in London and have around 2,500 personnel, I can count on my fingers the number of Americans working there. The London office is British, the vast majority of people working there are British, there are many offices around the world but they are a US Company. Consequently I have had the pleasure of living working in the US so I feel I know a little more than most on here regarding the US health system and chlorinated chickens.

The US companies want access to selling drugs, with Brexit it they will get that access, as mentioned already many of these companies have subsidiaries all over Europe, some US drugs are cheaper than what is available in the UK today, therefore we might just get cheaper prescriptions for the masses. The NHS itself stands for many things, most UK hospitals are light years behind the US hospitals I have used. I refuse to believe that the "NHS" is going to be sold to American companies and that we will have to pay the way Americans do for healthcare. If that is what you are trying to tell me but you will have to give me a pointer as to what you believe is the problem with having a trade agreement with America beyond that of prescriptions that seems to scare you and a few others.

There are many American companies operating in the UK that are British Private Healthcare Insurance services and you can have a card that allows you to go private and avoid the waiting times, this is how American healthcare works at the basic level, they have multi-level schemes, obviously the more you pay the more you can use without charges. As an example, for myself I was part of my companies Healthcare scheme, you chose the level and how much you pay, you get a card and you go to a doctor or hospital and the insurance pays 80% to the provider, you personally have to pay 20%, often this co-payment is less than $20, if you need prescriptions after your visit you pay for them separately. When I transferred back to London during my working life, my medical stayed the same, same Insurance company but based in Scotland (a UK Company with British employees) issued me with a UK medical card, when I visited doctor or hospital that card provided 100% payment not 80% as in the UK. As a British national I could go to the NHS free and had my local GP.

Sorry about the length just setting the scene and so want to understand what the issue is regarding NHS and having an American trade deal, when you have had categorical assurances from the Gov. that the NHS is not for sale

AndrewJB
Posts: 2861
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 939 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:46 pm

Gordaleman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:17 am
I don't belong to ANY cliques. Yours or anyone elses. I'm my own man with my own views and at 72 years old, a lot more years of experience than most on here.
That's fine, but don't start thinking you can still keep the benefits of being in the clique once you've left it. And I'm not refunding your membership fee either. :)
This user liked this post: KateR

aggi
Posts: 5173
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 1201 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by aggi » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:09 pm

Bit surprised that Ringo hasn't picked up on this, he used to post a lot about MPs bullying staff:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/home ... -qhr7dw9cw

Full text here
https://m.imgur.com/a/COy3zNO

AndrewJB
Posts: 2861
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 939 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:16 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:11 pm
I perhaps didn't phrase it very well, my point was about freeing up beds for patients earlier ...

You, like many on the left, obsess about means rather than ends, about who provides the service and whether it's ideologically pure, rather than the results for patients. I presume you're aware than GP practices are virtually all privately owned, and are service providers to the various Trusts ..
I think the it's the free market obsessives that are more ideologically driven toward "purity". The last Labour Manifesto only talked about nationalising parts of the economy that have failed or underperformed (to be kind) under private ownership, rather than everything; whereas there are still people in government who would like to see the NHS and BBC privatised, along with pretty much everything else.

The privatisation experiment has gone on for nearly forty years now. It was originally sold to us as bringing lower prices, and better service. That hasn't happened. Privatisation has worked for major shareholders, but as not everyone in the country is one of those, the benefits haven't been distributed evenly. If we're looking at results for the end user, then it hasn't been successful, and that also spreads out to the wider economy.

I agree with you that the end result is the important thing, and not how it's delivered. This surely calls into question the reasoning behind many of the privatisations over the last ten years, which were often done under the radar. Give blood now, and it gets sold to the NHS by an American company. Royal Mail - which made a profit for the country - was sold off for a song, though its pension remained a public responsibility. There's a compelling case that suggests privatisation is just a way of making rich people richer at the expense of everyone else.

What's your take?
These 2 users liked this post: Cryssys longsidepies

Clarets4me
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 1483 times
Has Liked: 632 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Clarets4me » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:26 pm

I do recall my parents having to wait 3 months to have a phone installed when the " Post Office " ran the phone system, now the millenials nearly have a fit if their new phone isn't switched over to their old number within 4 hours ! British Rail, the " Gas Board " and " Norweb " weren't exactly top-notch either, nor was the " Water Board " ... to be fair, these privatised Companies have being playing catch up after decades of under-investment at the dead-hand of State control ....

Corky
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:37 pm
Been Liked: 386 times
Has Liked: 306 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Corky » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:30 am

I think we all want what is best for the Country. But just like government and politics we have different views on how this is achieved. Clarets4me alludes to the past incompetence of nationalised State controlled businesses. That's fine but it would be a mistake to make assumptions based on historic data. When I joined Royal Mail in the 70's it was indeed a shambles. Even though it had a monopoly it wasn't run efficiently, quality of service was poor and there was a lot of waste. We had bars in every Mail Centre and had a very real problem with the drinks culture, even within HQ. However when I retired in 2016 I was proud of the company I left given the turn-round that I had been a small part of. One of the cheapest and most efficiently run Postal services in the world. The American one is a shambles and hugely expensive.

Now look at the break up of the Rail Network. Give it over to private franchises and it is bound to be run more efficiently and much more cost effectively we were led to believe. I don't think I need to say anything else other than...I see no evidence of that whatsover.

The good old NHS. KateR above, for me, did a great job of convincing me that no way do I want to go down the route of an American style system. My view of the NHS is that I pay through my National Insurance contribution for my health service and also for those less fortunate than me. I don't see the need to outsource chunks of it to Virgin Health or whoever so that they can profit from peoples illness. That is just perverse. Obviously we all want it to be run efficiently and to be funded properly but it is not a business it is a service. And with regard to the supply of drugs from the USA I have seen absolutely nothing that would suggest we can get them cheaper from the States. In fact I have seen evidence that drug costs in America are hugely higher over the pond. And remember this is a system where some faceless bureaucrat in a Health Insurance company came up with the idea that if a woman is having a caesarean and she wants to briefly hold the baby before she is patched up - they call it skin on skin contact - then that is an extra $40 thank you!!!! Well it is no thanks from me.
These 2 users liked this post: Gordaleman longsidepies

android
Posts: 360
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:01 am
Been Liked: 68 times
Has Liked: 16 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by android » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:15 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:29 pm
I don't think defending him against straw-man smears (the press were desperate to avoid talking about actual policy) is quite the same as propagandizing for him, but perhaps it's because I never joined the demonisation of Corbyn bandwagon like lots of people did? He said himself a million times he's against anti-semitism, so someone will have to remind you that speaking up for Palestinian freedom, or against the actions of the Israeli government isn't anti-Semitic.
Where you saw only smears, most of us saw some disturbing facts, but it's too late to re-run all that. But I was just picking you up on the specific point that you wrongly claimed that Corbyn had never made an anti-Semitic remark in his life. Your disinterest in those remarks can't make them disappear!

AndrewJB
Posts: 2861
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 939 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:29 am

android wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:15 am
Where you saw only smears, most of us saw some disturbing facts, but it's too late to re-run all that. But I was just picking you up on the specific point that you wrongly claimed that Corbyn had never made an anti-Semitic remark in his life. Your disinterest in those remarks can't make them disappear!
It’s possible I’ve missed something. Which remark did he make?

android
Posts: 360
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:01 am
Been Liked: 68 times
Has Liked: 16 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by android » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:06 am

You have seen it and brushed it off. It was the "they" are not like us stuff about British Jews. I have to go so will probably not get back to you until Sunday if this is really still being batted back and forth...

Gordaleman
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 220 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Gordaleman » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:59 am

android wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:15 am
Where you saw only smears, most of us saw some disturbing facts, but it's too late to re-run all that. But I was just picking you up on the specific point that you wrongly claimed that Corbyn had never made an anti-Semitic remark in his life. Your disinterest in those remarks can't make them disappear!
Criticising the Israeli government for it's stance on Palestine, is NOT anti semitic. Corbyn has NEVER criticised the Israeli people, only their government.
These 2 users liked this post: Corky Cryssys

AndrewJB
Posts: 2861
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 939 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:35 am

android wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:06 am
You have seen it and brushed it off. It was the "they" are not like us stuff about British Jews. I have to go so will probably not get back to you until Sunday if this is really still being batted back and forth...
I thought he was referring to specific people with that comment, rather than British Jews. But is that what you’re pinning your charge on, and in the face of a lifetime fighting racism? I could take your point of there was a history of bigotry, like writing articles that are racist as our PM has done, but there isn’t. And he’s done loads of work for his local Jewish community. It doesn’t add up as anti-semitism.

Corky
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:37 pm
Been Liked: 386 times
Has Liked: 306 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by Corky » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:38 am

I've tried but I can't find any evidence on the interweb of Corbyn being anti semitic or racist. It seems that the establishment and their media cronies throughout the election campaign rather than challenging his policies on fighting poverty and ending Britain's continued support for oppressive regimes focused on their accusations of anti-Semitism. Evidence for which I'm struggling to find.

AndrewJB
Posts: 2861
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 939 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: Cabinet Carnage

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:48 pm

Clarets4me wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:26 pm
I do recall my parents having to wait 3 months to have a phone installed when the " Post Office " ran the phone system, now the millenials nearly have a fit if their new phone isn't switched over to their old number within 4 hours ! British Rail, the " Gas Board " and " Norweb " weren't exactly top-notch either, nor was the " Water Board " ... to be fair, these privatised Companies have being playing catch up after decades of under-investment at the dead-hand of State control ....
"Dead hand of the state" scores lots of points in meaningless right wing jargon bingo.

What kind of investments have the train companies made? As far as I can see it's just the taxpayer building or upgrading lines. Thames Water is building a new super sewer, but they charged every London household thirty quid in order to raise the funds to do this. Of course, in a free market you can just go to a different water company, right? Oh? There are no others? Ah, but Thames Water must pay a lot in tax on all the money they make, right? What's that? Thames Water loaded itself down with debt to pay massive dividends to shareholders, so has never paid corporation tax? Most of the train companies are owned by the state run railways of other countries, so still under government control, but not ours.

Surely the excuses are all wearing too thin now, and even this government has been forced to reverse some of its own privatisations.
This user liked this post: Gordaleman

Post Reply