View from our Head of European & International recruitment

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Father Jack
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View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Father Jack » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:31 am

Just found this on the Athletic. Know it will be of interest given our European scouting progress was questioned again during January.

- - - -
The January transfer window closes in six days, while in four hours, and 50 miles north, Ian Butterworth’s former club Norwich City will take on his current employers in the FA Cup fourth round.

Not that he will be at Turf Moor to see the game. Butterworth is heading south by the same distance for Swansea City’s Championship visit to Stoke City. Three players will feature there who Burnley are keen on, although that doesn’t make signing them any more likely.

“We’ve got probably 10,000 reports on players from the last few years,” Butterworth tells The Athletic. “Some players have 40 reports over four seasons. We can watch them 10 times in a year and not sign them. But if the manager says he’s being pestered about this player, do we know much about him? Boom. He can see we’ve got 15 reports in the last two years. We can cut a video together with the analysts. Then you present it to the manager, owner and staff, with laptops.

“Every club has a process but sometimes you have to be reactive as well. You could lose your left-back a week before the window to injury and you hadn’t been interested in a left-back before. That’s why you’re looking for positions all the time. It’s a long process but you’ve only got two windows to bring people in. It’s all the legwork in between and a lot of it can be up a blind alley.

“All we’re trying to do is get as much information as possible to make that better decision. Whether it’s data, video scouting or live scouting, you’re putting it in the pot to make a more concise opinion. Even with that, when it comes in to the club it still might be considered shite! Everyone wants a say these days. The owners, chief execs, managers obviously have to have a say. The chief scout or director of football. That’s four people. Wow. There’s some egos there, at every club.

“Sean (Dyche, Burnley manager) has the final say here. You hear that some managers have players brought in for them but I can’t see how top managers would have players they don’t want. They might go down a list, sulk if they can’t get the top one and go to the next, but the manager must be involved in the process.

“You do all your background work, be part of the team and then hand over that list of names. All your evidence is backed up. We’re building a case. We’re like detectives where you’re trying to prise information out all the time. You can get that from speaking to people about who you’re looking at but what does that mean, really?

“It’s like the Norwich players now. You know all about them, whether their contracts are up, would the better ones come to Burnley if Norwich went down? If we stay in the Premier League, we will be looking at their squad for who might help us. We’ll be looking at any of the teams that go down and those at the top of the Championship.”

He joined Burnley in May 2017 as their head of European and international recruitment — a title to raise an eyebrow.

This season, Burnley have used eight players from outside the United Kingdom and Ireland, fewer than any other Premier League side.

In their four previous top-flight campaigns, only twice has a club used fewer than Burnley (Bournemouth in both cases).

It is telling that Butterworth’s title was changed to senior scout in October. In stark contrast, Norwich have used more overseas players in the top flight this season than anyone else (21).

“Originally Burnley wanted to dive into Europe a bit; they were testing things,” says Butterworth. “This club isn’t like the rest. It hasn’t got certain departments. We’ve tried to build the scouting up but now we judge a player on availability, affordability and ability. It’s not about where they come from.

“We’ve got a couple of foreign players and we’ve had a couple that have let us down, but we don’t have many and we’ve got to embrace that a little bit more because at the moment the market in England is a nightmare.”

Norwich have used that to their advantage. James Maddison and Jacob Murphy both made moves into the Premier League from Carrow Road without a single top-flight appearance; their deals brought in a combined £34 million.

“We don’t have that finance,” says Butterworth. “The owner could possibly loosen those purse strings but he doesn’t do it, so we have to find a solution around that. In Europe, you can still find a bargain but even their prices are going up because they see all this money in the Premier League. If Burnley come in, they judge us the same as Everton, West Ham, Leicester. We haven’t got the same budget as everybody else. It’s difficult.”

Those inside Norwich would agree. The Premier League mark-up last summer played a significant part in them recruiting players on loan or as free agents, as in the case of Josip Drmic.

Perhaps the answer is to look at a club like Brentford. Their recruitment has impressed and the west London club are now consistent candidates for Premier League promotion.

“Their ones have gone straight into a Championship team,” says Butterworth. “If we had bought some of those, they wouldn’t have gone straight into a Premier League team. They do really well, Brentford. Julian Jeanvier, they got from Reims. We had a look at him when I was at QPR. I quite fancied him, but not to go into the Premier League. Sometimes you have to do the Championship for one or two years. Then you might take off.

“Are Brentford a better team than when Norwich went up? I think Norwich are better, and they’re bottom of the Premier League. They could surprise people but if Brentford went up, they might need to get one or two experienced ones in. Could they afford that? Norwich weren’t going to buy a £15 million-£20 million player after promotion because they’re thinking ‘That’s not us’ and haven’t got the cash to throw around.”

Norwich have a similar budget to Burnley. They will also hope to follow their lead if they are relegated, by bouncing back immediately as the Lancashire club did in 2015-16. But there is another compelling difference beyond nationality: age.

“Norwich have a productive academy, and ours isn’t at that level,” says Butterworth. “The Norwich model is brilliant if you can get those young players in the first team, they’re good enough to stay there and bring success. You maybe sell Max Aarons for £35 million and then use that money to patch up somewhere else. It’s fantastic. It’s what every chairman wants: players coming through from the academy, without paying money out. That’s utopia.

“Is there a ceiling with that? What are Norwich’s ambitions? The top six is a closed market. Leicester have done it but they and Wolves have plenty of money. Usually, the teams with the biggest budgets are top, barring Arsenal.

“Norwich must get great delight in how they recruited Aarons and Ben Godfrey, and seeing them come through. We’d cry out for that at Burnley but we’ve gone a different way, where we’ve bought for now. Sean Dyche has done an unbelievable job. He’s kept a small team competing in the Premier League for a fourth season. If they stay up that will be four years of not spending a lot of money. So it can be done but you’re not going to win anything or finish in the top seven by doing that.

“Norwich staying in the Premier League for a few years would be good. They will probably go back out and they have got to try to get back in again. They should have a good chance with their young players. Keep the manager. The environment is nice. All you’ve got to do is improve the club a little bit at a time. You can’t throw money at it. If a sheikh took over Burnley tomorrow and went bang, £200 million, you’d have a good go but there are no guarantees. Clubs like Brighton and Everton have spent bucketloads and they’re no further forward.

“We’ve now got to replace four, five, six older players. We’ve got big decisions over which direction the club wants to go. We might look at Norwich and want to go that way, which takes time. We might decide we can’t afford to do that so we buy again for now to keep us in the league. Or maybe they’ll give Sean £100 million! It’s whatever they want to do, and we’re in the middle, trying to find the players.

“A Premier League player for less than £10 million that will help keep us 10th, 12th, 14th in the league… it’s possible.”

The dark arts of scouting are not quite as dark as they used to be.

“It doesn’t matter. Everyone knows who you’re looking at, really,” says Butterworth. “We’re looking at the same players as Brighton, Southampton, Norwich. And with the management systems we’ve got — Scout 7, Wyscout — we know every player already. There is still an element of discovery but our analysts can flag up players in Croatia, Poland, have a look at a couple of games and give us a list to check out.

“If we think a Croatian No 9 would come in and be better than Chris Wood or Ashley Barnes and he’s in our price range, we investigate further. We watch them at least three or four times live and watch another eight videos. It’s not that I’ve seen a left-back at Partick Thistle, no one’s seen him and I’m the only one there. It’s very rare that happens now.

“The hardest bit is convincing your people at your club that he’s better than what we’ve got, and he’s in budget to get it over the line.”

Butterworth has come up against that resistance before, most notably with Ferland Mendy.

“It can be hard seeing a player at one level and judging how they would do at another,” he adds. “You’ve got to look at the tempo and how you play. It depends on the philosophy of your manager. Like with full-backs. Most now seem to be attacking-minded. The defensive one who sits next to his centre-back doesn’t exist much.

“Athletic full-backs mean centre-backs who are comfortable playing in wide areas, so do you really need big centre-backs now? Or do they need to be tall, leggy and quick now they’re playing against forwards like Sergio Aguero and Teemu Pukki, running off the shoulder with crosses tending to be more like pull-backs?”
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by claretfern » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:42 am

A very interesting read.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by beddie » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:56 am

Thanks for that Father Jack. A great read. It makes you realise just how much work goes into scouting players.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Sproggy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:00 am

>Butterworth is heading south by the same distance for Swansea City’s Championship visit to Stoke City.

I'm saying nowt.
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Tricky Trevor » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:02 am

Pieters, JBG, Vydra, Wood, Barnes?(Austrian).
Which 3 am I missing? It says 8 from outside UK & Ireland.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:09 am

Tricky Trevor wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:02 am
Pieters, JBG, Vydra, Wood, Barnes?(Austrian).
Which 3 am I missing? It says 8 from outside UK & Ireland.
Tarkowski, Rodriguez and The Pope.
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by jdrobbo » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:22 am

Super article and a great insight.

With Messrs Woan and Butterworth at the club (not Steve Stone) we have some key players in the Ian Culverhouse game.
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by CombatClaret » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:29 am

Should be required reading before posting about transfers
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by willsclarets » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:33 am

Good read, it must be hellishly tough to find players you think will improve us within our budget. Then convincing Sean Dyche you're right, before the club has even delved into the character of the player which we also value highly or got the green light from the board to approach. All of that's before you've picked up the phone to the player's club and found out they value him at twice the price Burnley does. Long process with lots of dead ends. The perception that there's a Kante in every league waiting to be discovered is nonsense. But our next flurry of activity in the transfer market is vital to start turning over a peaking squad, he's got a big job on his hands.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Tricky Trevor » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:40 am

willsclarets wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:33 am
Good read, it must be hellishly tough to find players you think will improve us within our budget. Then convincing Sean Dyche you're right, before the club has even delved into the character of the player which we also value highly or got the green light from the board to approach. All of that's before you've picked up the phone to the player's club and found out they value him at twice the price Burnley does. Long process with lots of dead ends. The perception that there's a Kante in every league waiting to be discovered is nonsense. But our next flurry of activity in the transfer market is vital to start turning over a peaking squad, he's got a big job on his hands.
All that and if they are good enough for us others will be looking who can pay them more. No wonder we play our cards so close to the chest.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by dibraidio » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:40 am

Tricky Trevor wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:02 am
Pieters, JBG, Vydra, Wood, Barnes?(Austrian).
Which 3 am I missing? It says 8 from outside UK & Ireland.
It probably should have been from outside the UK and NOTHERN Ireland, they're probably counting Long, Brady and Hendrick but that still doesn't make 8. You can't count Barnes.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by jdrobbo » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:44 am

‘...Sean Dyche has done an unbelievable job. He’s kept a small team competing in the Premier League for a fourth season. If they stay up that will be four years of not spending a lot of money. So it can be done but you’re not going to win anything or finish in the top seven by doing that...’

Haven’t we already finished seventh? :-)

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by ksrclaret » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:54 am

Interesting read which alludes to one or two little bits

A.) seems like we’ve all but abandoned the idea of expanding and utilising the foreign markets

B.) seems to suggest we’re looking at players who will cost us £10m or less (Brownhill is a good example here)

C.) relegated PL sides and championships sides appear to be the only market we’re willing to look at

We’ll need a few this summer to interesting times ahead
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Gordaleman » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:54 am

I think that we all knew that recruitment was a long and difficult process, but that article takes it to a whole new level.

Maybe we need to look where no one has looked before? Do they play football on Mars?

I guess the academy needs to start paying for itself. It might have cost about £10 million, but it's day to day running costs won't be cheap either.
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Stan Tastic » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:55 am

So it can be done but you’re not going to win anything or finish in the top seven by doing that
Erm...

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by IanMcL » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:42 am

Europe here we come!

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by ClaretTony » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:40 am

Gordaleman wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:54 am
I think that we all knew that recruitment was a long and difficult process, but that article takes it to a whole new level.

Maybe we need to look where no one has looked before? Do they play football on Mars?

I guess the academy needs to start paying for itself. It might have cost about £10 million, but it's day to day running costs won't be cheap either.
I think the £10 million you refer to might be the cost of the new training ground and not the academy.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by ClaretTony » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:41 am

ksrclaret wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:54 am
Interesting read which alludes to one or two little bits

A.) seems like we’ve all but abandoned the idea of expanding and utilising the foreign markets

B.) seems to suggest we’re looking at players who will cost us £10m or less (Brownhill is a good example here)

C.) relegated PL sides and championships sides appear to be the only market we’re willing to look at

We’ll need a few this summer to interesting times ahead
Not sure how you have come up with that from the article

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by BOYSIE31 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:12 pm

Good read but seems to call out the board to loosen those strings if we are having record signings sat in the stands.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:40 pm

Interesting. But what’s clear to me is we are judging all European signings of our limited experience with high percentage being a flop. Being burnt one way or other with Vossen, Hennings and Defour.

To me we need to be a little less risk averse and open minded / flexible with overseas signings.

It’s not like domestic signings are all a success or less risk averse. Look at almost all of our recent spending on loans.

Or the limited resale value we will get on Pieters or Hart ( granted the ROI On them was totally different).

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Spike » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:24 pm

this summer we need to get a few, not loads of new faces in and let some of the squad players go and replace them with younger and better.

We need to this early but that would be a shock to us all

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by bodge » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:26 pm

Great stuff, thanks for posting Father Jack.

Really interesting hearing those comments and particularly where he alluded we were at a crossroads in terms of strategy replacing the 5 or 6 older players.

I suspect we'll be buying for now and that has to be the right approach, gamble on too many young players for the future and we will likely be relegated, so stay at the top table while we're here should be the plan.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by ChorltonCharlie » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:35 pm

Funny how people read things. Butterworth clearly states we need to embrace the euro market more, yet people have taken the article to say the opposite.

A lot of it comes down to spending money of £10m to £20m and being able to improve the team whilst keeping the wage budget. The criticism Dyche gets of the Gibson and Vydra signings shows that. What we can get for that money is no better. Some say gamble more, but then you end up with more costly signings that don’t work out. When people say gamble, what they mean is gamble and win. They’re not interested in the losses. I’ve a feeling that we’ll see much more success in the coming years because we’ll have to go out and replace the ageing players as Butterworth says. Problem is if only 2 of the 6 work out, we could easily get relegated.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by KateR » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:49 pm

Really enjoyed the read and it actually falls right in my line of thinking regarding recruitment and it being at the heart of all clubs and in a business mode/sense of things it is the main part of the strategic plan for the future or Yearly Operating Plan to fuel growth. Unfortunately in my mind/opinion it also shows that we do not have a great plan for improvements for the short, mid, long term that fills me with any confidence and it really needs to be changed if we want to improve rather than maintain status quo.

The sense I get is that Status Quo is the plan but am sure there are other things happening in the club that are not within the OP or even trying to read between the lines and sense something that is not clear and obvious. But it has worked so far so difficult to criticize as not acceptable.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:55 pm

Won't we be disadvantaged by geography when it comes to our academy, compared to teams like Norwich? The two Manchester clubs on our doorstep, and even smaller clubs like Blackburn, or Bolton, with their own academies.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by ZizkovClaret » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:20 pm

I maintain that the Czech Republic is a relatively untapped seam of footballers. It would hardly cost a fortune to scout it either, with the major clubs in just 2 cities.
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Vegas Claret » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:35 pm

thanks Father Jack, great and interesting read

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by JohnDearyMe » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:48 pm

bodge wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:26 pm
Great stuff, thanks for posting Father Jack.

Really interesting hearing those comments and particularly where he alluded we were at a crossroads in terms of strategy replacing the 5 or 6 older players.

I suspect we'll be buying for now and that has to be the right approach, gamble on too many young players for the future and we will likely be relegated, so stay at the top table while we're here should be the plan.
Very interesting read. The point he made about us needing to replace 5 or 6 older players really stood out for me too

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Hipper » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:36 pm

KateR wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:49 pm
Really enjoyed the read and it actually falls right in my line of thinking regarding recruitment and it being at the heart of all clubs and in a business mode/sense of things it is the main part of the strategic plan for the future or Yearly Operating Plan to fuel growth. Unfortunately in my mind/opinion it also shows that we do not have a great plan for improvements for the short, mid, long term that fills me with any confidence and it really needs to be changed if we want to improve rather than maintain status quo.

The sense I get is that Status Quo is the plan but am sure there are other things happening in the club that are not within the OP or even trying to read between the lines and sense something that is not clear and obvious. But it has worked so far so difficult to criticize as not acceptable.
To me it is clear that we do have a short, medium and long term plan. It's just that no-one has set it out for us, and why should they.

I would have thought the training ground and moves to make the academy more productive is the long term vision. Recruiting the likes of Pieters was a short term matter to deal with the absence of Taylor. If he hadn't been there who would we have played at left back? We've been unfortunate with Brady and Gudmunsson and their injuries which is clearly the reason Lennon is here. And we've had a bonus in McNeil, not a product of our academy but a cast off from the bigger clubs, as was Mee and Trippier. If we can find more cast offs, and a few gems that we hope Brownhill will become (as Maddison at Leicester, Brookes and perhaps Wilson at Bournemouth), that must be the medium term strategy. We don't go flailing around making panic buys and I don't want us to.

I would also think in the background must also be the question of how will we finance improvements to Turf Moor.

Obviously this is all frustrating when we see other clubs throwing money about but where has it got them. Which club at our level has done better then us over the last few seasons?
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by ClaretTony » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:50 pm

Hipper wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:36 pm
And we've had a bonus in McNeil, not a product of our academy but a cast off from the bigger clubs, as was Mee and Trippier
Somewhat different. McNeil came in at 14 and came through our youth team and development squad so I would say he is very much a product of our academy. Mee & Trippier were completely different, brought in as first team players and they'd both played games in the Championship while on loan at Leicester & Barnsley respectively.
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by KateR » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:53 pm

Hipper wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:36 pm
To me it is clear that we do have a short, medium and long term plan. It's just that no-one has set it out for us, and why should they.

I would have thought the training ground and moves to make the academy more productive is the long term vision. Recruiting the likes of Pieters was a short term matter to deal with the absence of Taylor. If he hadn't been there who would we have played at left back? We've been unfortunate with Brady and Gudmunsson and their injuries which is clearly the reason Lennon is here. And we've had a bonus in McNeil, not a product of our academy but a cast off from the bigger clubs, as was Mee and Trippier. If we can find more cast offs, and a few gems that we hope Brownhill will become (as Maddison at Leicester, Brookes and perhaps Wilson at Bournemouth), that must be the medium term strategy. We don't go flailing around making panic buys and I don't want us to.

I would also think in the background must also be the question of how will we finance improvements to Turf Moor.

Obviously this is all frustrating when we see other clubs throwing money about but where has it got them. Which club at our level has done better then us over the last few seasons?
Sorry if I was not clear, I was only talking about the recruitment side, other areas of the Strategic planning are clear and yes agree regarding short/medium/long term planning for things outside of recruitment. I did comment elsewhere on another recruitment post regarding the other sides outside the recruitment aspect, also as to the yearly planning, I also stand by the point of the recruitment is the heart of all the other plans, failure in the worst form, relegation means all the other plans are halted or severely curtailed.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by ZizkovClaret » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:55 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:50 pm
Somewhat different. McNeil came in at 14 and came through our youth team and development squad so I would say he is very much a product of our academy. Mee & Trippier were completely different, brought in as first team players and they'd both played games in the Championship while on loan at Leicester & Barnsley respectively.
It does make sense to pick up players released from the "big" clubs in the area, like McNeil, and maybe we will be able to attract younger players from the get go, but with the other clubs in the area, we will always be competing against some pretty established academies.
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by superdimitri » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:11 pm

Good read but I don't really feel like it really tells us anything new. We already know that scouting isn't like it used to be.

Our success staying in the league shows that we are doing something right but I feel it's got a lot more to do with Dyche's management than our team of recruiters.

There's definitely room for improvement. The question is, if we do ever decide to splash some cash do we have good enough recruitment to get it right?

I think there's teams that are below us in the league but with much better recruitment. The difference being perhaps their management as a whole isn't so good, so they don't make the best of the players.

If the club can get recruitment right then that's when we will be able to move forward. Given how poor it's generally been I hope they are looking at getting more/better staff in too.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by CombatClaret » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:21 pm

Somewhat puts paid to the notion there is this mythical untapped mine of 'hidden gems' that only Burnley's recruitment team seem unable to find.

All the teams are essentially watching all the players.
Some teams take a punt on a lower league or foreign player. A lot fail, a rare few shine. We only focus on the latter and bemoan our inability to sign similar.
ChorltonCharlie wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:35 pm
When people say gamble, what they mean is gamble and win. They’re not interested in the losses.
Spot on!
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:31 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:54 am
Interesting read which alludes to one or two little bits

A.) seems like we’ve all but abandoned the idea of expanding and utilising the foreign markets

B.) seems to suggest we’re looking at players who will cost us £10m or less (Brownhill is a good example here)

C.) relegated PL sides and championships sides appear to be the only market we’re willing to look at

We’ll need a few this summer to interesting times ahead
Fenerbache say we were the only bidders for Muriqi during the last window.
I don't think we've cut our options, just admitting that some are more fruit bearing than others .

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by ClaretTony » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:51 pm

superdimitri wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:11 pm
If the club can get recruitment right then that's when we will be able to move forward. Given how poor it's generally been I hope they are looking at getting more/better staff in too.

We have moved forward and that's because we have got the recruitment right.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by ChorltonCharlie » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:46 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:51 pm
We have moved forward and that's because we have got the recruitment right.
Exactly. All the team with the exception of Mee & Long signed under Dyche. Hart, Gibson and Vydra are used as evidence of poor recruitment. Funny that they never use 11th in the Premier League and once again exceeding expectations.
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by superdimitri » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:52 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:51 pm
We have moved forward and that's because we have got the recruitment right.
I'm not so sure we have moved on because of recruitment though. I think we move forward because of Dyche getting the most out of the players we have rather than recruitment being right.
I don't think you can use league position and results to measure recruitment. There's plenty of teams that have recruited better than we have that are below us. That doesn't mean they are below us because their recruitment is worse. They are more likely below us due to worse management.

If we can improve recruitment, we will get even better...and there's a lot to improve.
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by BOYSIE31 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:33 pm

Like I said before big summer for Burnley

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by ClaretTony » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:28 pm

superdimitri wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:52 pm
I'm not so sure we have moved on because of recruitment though. I think we move forward because of Dyche getting the most out of the players we have rather than recruitment being right.
I don't think you can use league position and results to measure recruitment. There's plenty of teams that have recruited better than we have that are below us. That doesn't mean they are below us because their recruitment is worse. They are more likely below us due to worse management.

If we can improve recruitment, we will get even better...and there's a lot to improve.
I’m damn sure you can use league and position in it to measure recruitment. That’s how it works. You drop if you don’t get your recruitment right and we, generally have done.
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by boatshed bill » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:33 pm

superdimitri wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:52 pm
I'm not so sure we have moved on because of recruitment though. I think we move forward because of Dyche getting the most out of the players we have rather than recruitment being right.
I don't think you can use league position and results to measure recruitment. There's plenty of teams that have recruited better than we have that are below us. That doesn't mean they are below us because their recruitment is worse. They are more likely below us due to worse management.

If we can improve recruitment, we will get even better...and there's a lot to improve.
Are you confusing volume in terms of money spent and numbers in with effective recruitment?
Just because clubs spend more doesn't equate to better recruitment.
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Nonayforever » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:38 pm

The way I read the article was clubs similar to ourselves are all shopping in the same store, looking at the same players.
The decision to be made by those clubs on who they actually want & make an offer for are slightly different in terms of who they need at the time of the transfer window.
That makes a lot of sense why transfers are left to the last minute. Burnley need to replace 4 or 5 players. They have to decide if they want to gamble on a championship player, which means a young player, or an established PL player who is not required by their present team, therefore meaning an older player.
It works like an auction. If 6 clubs want a CB & one becomes available then the price goes up, if only one club wants a goalie and three become available then the price goes down.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by turfytopper » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:14 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:02 am
Pieters, JBG, Vydra, Wood, Barnes?(Austrian).
Which 3 am I missing? It says 8 from outside UK & Ireland.
Not Barnes but the other 4 possibly...
Mumbongo, Jensen, O'Neill and Legzdins?

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by superdimitri » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:05 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:28 pm
I’m damn sure you can use league and position in it to measure recruitment. That’s how it works. You drop if you don’t get your recruitment right and we, generally have done.
Its one part of the measurement but not the sole part. In my opinion at least recruitment has been really poor so for us to be where we are given the poor recruitment is incredible. If we had better recruitment we would be even higher.
Our recruitment when we were in the Championship is actually far better than it has been in the last few seasons.

We all want the club to improve right? Part of wanting improvement is noticing weakness. If we all believed Burnley FC could do no wrong I don't think this message board would exist, nor do I think the club would even be where it is now.
boatshed bill wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:33 pm
Are you confusing volume in terms of money spent and numbers in with effective recruitment?
Just because clubs spend more doesn't equate to better recruitment.
No, not volumes at all. I understand our transfer policy (and didn't need to read this article to realise that either). But there are teams that spend less on players and get better value. You can look at clubs like Leicester in the past few seasons to see the kind of excellent recruitment that would help us move forward, or more recently Sheffield United.

Things could be a lot worse, but they could be a lot better too. We have been capable of good recruitment before so I see no reason why we can't make a good go of it in the summer.

People might see my posts of being negative, but I find the articles you read from the club far more negative. Always someone has something to say about recruitment being tough, be it the Manager, the Chairman or a scout. How about our recruitment team start doing a better job? And if they can't, how about replacing them?
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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by ClaretTony » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:18 pm

superdimitri wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:05 pm
In my opinion at least recruitment has been really poor so for us to be where we are given the poor recruitment is incredible
It's down as much as anything to very good recruitment - surely you can see that. I'm staggered if you can't. There is absolutely no way on earth that we could get promoted to the Premier League and have four successive seasons there if the recruitment wasn't good, let alone, as you suggest, really poor.

I seriously don't understand where you are coming from. How on earth do you think the recruitment is poor?
superdimitri wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:05 pm
But there are teams that spend less on players and get better value. You can look at clubs like Leicester in the past few seasons to see the kind of excellent recruitment that would help us move forward, or more recently Sheffield United.
Sheffield United are having a good season but you are suggesting Leicester spend less and get better value. Do you seriously believe that? How much less are they spending? I'm amazed you think they are getting better players in for less. I bet their wage bill is in a different league to ours. I think you have seriously got the wrong club with Leicester.
superdimitri wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:05 pm
How about our recruitment team start doing a better job? And if they can't, how about replacing them?
That one made me laugh.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Spijed » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:19 pm

superdimitri wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:05 pm
You can look at clubs like Leicester in the past few seasons to see the kind of excellent recruitment that would help us move forward, or more recently Sheffield United.
You mean Leicester wasting £30 million on players like Slimani?

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by boatshed bill » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:29 pm

Sheffield Utd's recent signings suggest that they have a far bigger budget than we have: Berge, Retsos, Robinson and Zivkovic may or may not prove to be good recruitment.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by superdimitri » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:41 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:18 pm
It's down as much as anything to very good recruitment - surely you can see that. I'm staggered if you can't. There is absolutely no way on earth that we could get promoted to the Premier League and have four successive seasons there if the recruitment wasn't good, let alone, as you suggest, really poor.

I seriously don't understand where you are coming from. How on earth do you think the recruitment is poor?



Sheffield United are having a good season but you are suggesting Leicester spend less and get better value. Do you seriously believe that? How much less are they spending? I'm amazed you think they are getting better players in for less. I bet their wage bill is in a different league to ours. I think you have seriously got the wrong club with Leicester.



That one made me laugh.
Well I'm glad I made you chuckle Tony. Not sure why, but there you go.

How you can think our recruitment has been good I have no idea. We have an ageing squad and Brownhill aside (jury is still out with him) we haven't added any talent for the future. This season we signed a player on loan who from day 1 clearly wasn't interested in playing for us and we still haven't addressed a big weakness at right back.

Our recruitment has been laughing stock of other clubs. Deals not going through at the last minute because of penny pinching. Resorting to lower priority targets because we haven't been able to bring in our first choice and signing players for big fees (for us) that aren't good enough to stake a claim in the first team. One of which has thrown his toys out of the pram and gone back home despite being contracted to us.
Spijed wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:19 pm


You mean Leicester wasting £30 million on players like Slimani?
They recruited top players, for relatively little cash that have been able to step into their first team and improve them compared to last season. Compared to us who are mostly playing with the same lineup as we did last year its clear they have had better recruitment than we have. They may have made mistakes, every club does. But they have a record of bringing in players in that step in and improve their first 11. For me that is good recruitment.

Meanwhile we waste 30m on two players who don't even get game time. In relative terms those players cost much more to us than Leicester's failed signings have to them. We could have easily signed players like Evans, Maddison and Soyunco and if you believe this article, we would have already been aware of them. That is much better business than signing Vydra and Gibson.

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by Gordaleman » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:44 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:40 am
I think the £10 million you refer to might be the cost of the new training ground and not the academy.
Surely the academy is part of it? Semantics?

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Re: View from our Head of European & International recruitment

Post by boatshed bill » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:01 pm

superdimitri wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:41 pm
Well I'm glad I made you chuckle Tony. Not sure why, but there you go.

How you can think our recruitment has been good I have no idea. We have an ageing squad and Brownhill aside (jury is still out with him) we haven't added any talent for the future.
We could have easily signed players like Evans, Maddison and Soyunco and if you believe this article, we would have already been aware of them. That is much better business than signing Vydra and Gibson.
Evans and Soyuncu are no better than what we already have, but probably demand higher wages.
Please, when referring to Leicester City as a model for success don't forget that they cheated creditors out of millions before becoming a model PL club.

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