Boris Watch

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Jakubclaret
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:55 pm

We've finally got a PM we should be proud of, some belief in the old British bulldog spirit.
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ecc
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by ecc » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:37 am

Are you winding us up or what?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by atlantalad » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:51 am

joey13 wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:08 pm
The science has never changed , government and so called experts are so far behind the science it’s unbelievable


Science has never changed? What a naive statement. I take it your not a scientist, but you do sound to be an expert on bs.

Science evolves from validated and rigorous data. Opinion is not science, it's pure speculation and hypothesis.

Imperial college have just published a detailed research paper (16 March) outlining different scenarios assimilated from pertinent data ( not hear-say) collected from China and Italy - data that is still evolving to reinforce the science of Cov-19. The chief medical officer and chief scientific advisor are acting on this science whilst taking into consideration resources and social factors in the UK.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by dsr » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:07 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:54 pm
All the other countries in Europe have taken quicker and stronger measures than we have. Our scientists have advised the government and our government chose the path that leads to more deaths. That is why we have not had lockdowns like they’ve had. Our scientists didn’t say not locking down will reduce the death toll, but gave the government several scenarios. The government - our government - chose the one that would end up with more fatalities, yet keep the economy going. I think they’ve changed that now, but the fact they went for it originally says a lot.

If you disagree, then what’s your take? I promise not to call you a krank.
Are you saying that the government is wrong to consider the economy at all, or that they were right to consider it but with the wrong weighting?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:41 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:38 pm
Me too. His confident demeanour belies his years.

Their ability to spot a good replacement is almost Dyche-like! (Bloody hell I'm missing the footy!)
Careful Ringo they will try and twist this to say its racist the labour hardcore lefties. Or now the monster raving loony party as I like to call them.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:45 am

joey13 wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:37 pm
I couldn’t give a toss who is in power , it was obvious what was going to happen at the end of January , when did China or Italy talk about herd immunity, they didn’t, the government and so called experts have and will cost real lives , get that into your head .
Every government and leader in the world face the same problems. You need to take your little labour dunces cap off and come out of the corner of the classroom now.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:46 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:54 pm
All the other countries in Europe have taken quicker and stronger measures than we have. Our scientists have advised the government and our government chose the path that leads to more deaths. That is why we have not had lockdowns like they’ve had. Our scientists didn’t say not locking down will reduce the death toll, but gave the government several scenarios. The government - our government - chose the one that would end up with more fatalities, yet keep the economy going. I think they’ve changed that now, but the fact they went for it originally says a lot.

If you disagree, then what’s your take? I promise not to call you a krank.
Absolute poppycock.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by joey13 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:50 am

Bfcboyo wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:45 am
Every government and leader in the world face the same problems. You need to take your little labour dunces cap off and come out of the corner of the classroom now.
I don’t support Labour , so you got that wrong aswell

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by joey13 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:51 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:25 pm
Prime Minister Johnson is simply doing exactly, what Prime Minister, Corbyn/Starmer/Swinson would've had to do.

Which is, listening to the advice of the Chief Medical Officer and his team. That advice would have been the same, regardless of who had the keys to Number 10.

The modelling is based on a fast changing , and , very fluid situation. The variables will be changing by the hour. Importantly, initially, the information on which it was based, was coming from China. More recently it has been coming from Italy. The more information, the more accurate the advice should be.

The one and only reason the PM has changed the government's approach. Is because his advice has now changed.

You'll , no doubt, be familiar with the words of John Maynard Keynes -

"When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?"
You keep your head in the sand , unbelievable

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:51 am

joey13 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:50 am
I don’t support Labour , so you got that wrong aswell
China caused this and tried to cover it up for a short time and you are slating our government.

Wake up.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by joey13 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:52 am

Holtyclaret wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:56 pm
Didn’t see you at our PM’s 5pm press conference today? You speak with such authority I’d expect you to be up there fielding questions and sharing your knowledge with the nation.

No one likes a smart arse.

If Boris said it got dark at night you’d argue with him.

Not a time for snideyness or sniping.
Not for snideyness or sniping and you’ve done exact that , well done

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by joey13 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:55 am

Bfcboyo wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:51 am
China caused this and tried to cover it up for a short time and you are slating our government.

Wake up.
No just Johnson , still we will be turning the tide in 12 weeks , so nothing to worry about

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:56 am

joey13 wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:37 pm
I couldn’t give a toss who is in power , it was obvious what was going to happen at the end of January , when did China or Italy talk about herd immunity, they didn’t, the government and so called experts have and will cost real lives , get that into your head .
It appears you are on the wind up with your facts.
China deceived the world with this and Italy have made the biggest mess of anybody so far.

But hold on let's have a pop at Johnson. As for not being Labour I can only assume you are from that green cult or a libtard.
Last edited by Bfcboyo on Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:00 am

joey13 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:55 am
No just Johnson , still we will be turning the tide in 12 weeks , so nothing to worry about
What would you have him do tell us everything is doomed and we may as well go pillaging . It is being handled to quell the worry of the mindless masses you mix with.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by joey13 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:18 am

Bfcboyo wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:56 am
It appears you are on the wind up with your facts.
China deceived the world with this and Italy have made the biggest mess of anybody so far.

But hold on let's have a pop at Johnson. As far not being Labour I can only assume you are from that green cult or a libtard.
Wrong again , Italy have made the biggest mess , you should be ashamed, people are dying

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:18 am

joey13 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:18 am
Wrong again , Italy have made the biggest mess , you should be ashamed, people are dying
Blaming me now?

You need some sleep I will leave you be.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:36 am

From Trump to Brexit and now on to this pandemic virus the world has been getting crazier and crazier. Im not sure if we have or havent been making the right decisions as a country so I'll reserve both praise and criticism until we are in a position to reflect

What continues to concern me is the handling of communication from those we rely on and the fact we are still seeing lies and misrepresentation when we should facing the hard truths together.

I saw a quote today from the ending scene of the brilliant Chernobyl TV series and I really think this is what has become of countrys like the US and the UK (and no doubt many others)

“When the truth offends, we lie and lie until we can no longer remember it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid.”
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Cryssys » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:26 am

bfcjg wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:48 pm
I am just grateful that for the last few years we have had a government that has attempted to limit immigration or we could have a population even bigger then the one we are struggling to cope with now.
That seems a strange comment given that a lot of people in the UK were claiming that immigration was out of control and was one of the main reasons for voting leave.

No doubt the ratio of population and food production and water supply ratio per head of population is ignored by the anti Boris brigade, obviously unless they will personally give to the people on the beaches of France their hoarded organic nuts.
Think you need to go to bed fella. Sleep well

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Gordaleman » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:35 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:36 am
From Trump to Brexit and now on to this pandemic virus the world has been getting crazier and crazier. Im not sure if we have or havent been making the right decisions as a country so I'll reserve both praise and criticism until we are in a position to reflect

What continues to concern me is the handling of communication from those we rely on and the fact we are still seeing lies and misrepresentation when we should facing the hard truths together.

I saw a quote today from the ending scene of the brilliant Chernobyl TV series and I really think this is what has become of countrys like the US and the UK (and no doubt many others)

“When the truth offends, we lie and lie until we can no longer remember it is even there. But it is still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid.”
Some would say that we are fighting a war against Covid 19, and In 1918 US Senator Hiram Warren Johnson is purported to have said: "The first casualty when war comes is truth." That's almost certainly the case now.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:42 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:25 pm
Prime Minister Johnson is simply doing exactly, what Prime Minister, Corbyn/Starmer/Swinson would've had to do.

Which is, listening to the advice of the Chief Medical Officer and his team. That advice would have been the same, regardless of who had the keys to Number 10.

The modelling is based on a fast changing , and , very fluid situation. The variables will be changing by the hour. Importantly, initially, the information on which it was based, was coming from China. More recently it has been coming from Italy. The more information, the more accurate the advice should be.

The one and only reason the PM has changed the government's approach. Is because his advice has now changed.

You'll , no doubt, be familiar with the words of John Maynard Keynes -

"When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?"
Stop peddling this utter fallacy. The facts have not changed. We've known for a long time now what demographic the virus hits, how easy it is to catch, and the fatality rate. Those facts haven't changed. Scientists don't tell the government what to do.They give the government options. Option A fight the virus to the fullest, and lock down the country. Option B try to contain the virus at the cost of 250K dead. Option C do nothing at the cost of 580K dead. The government, by not testing, not closing down schools and public places, not stopping travel, and by the PM's own admission; "we are going to lose a lot of our nearest and dearest" started off with Option C. They have since moved to Option B. Perhaps Cummings worked out that they'd lose too many voters?
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Cryssys » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:48 am

Bfcboyo wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:00 am
What would you have him do tell us everything is doomed and we may as well go pillaging . It is being handled to quell the worry of the mindless masses you mix with.

In times like these I expect leaders to be positive and I also expect them to be economical with the truth in order to avoid panic. That doesn't mean they have to lie though because there will come a time when anyone who can be shown to have been lying to the public will have to pay the price. To that extent you have to be careful in what you say. BJ's comment that we can turn the tide 12 weeks may yet come back to haunt him.

The steps taken by the government to with regard to wages and trying to protect peoples financial security are remarkable and way beyond anything we have ever seen before and exceeded my expectations, for that I congratulate them.

We are in the very early stages of this crisis and the worst is yet to come. It will be interesting see what government does in the next few weeks and whether it can maintain the level of popularity it has at the moment.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:00 am

Cryssys wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:48 am
In times like these I expect leaders to be positive and I also expect them to be economical with the truth in order to avoid panic. That doesn't mean they have to lie though because there will come a time when anyone who can be shown to have been lying to the public will have to pay the price. To that extent you have to be careful in what you say. BJ's comment that we can turn the tide 12 weeks may yet come back to haunt him.

The steps taken by the government to with regard to wages and trying to protect peoples financial security are remarkable and way beyond anything we have ever seen before and exceeded my expectations, for that I congratulate them.

We are in the very early stages of this crisis and the worst is yet to come. It will be interesting see what government does in the next few weeks and whether it can maintain the level of popularity it has at the moment.
The part about turning the tide in 12 weeks was clearly a rallying call to get the public to adjust their way of life in the short term by following government instructions. He said something like if people do what we're telling them we can turn the tide in 12 weeks. A smart move in my view.
Last edited by taio on Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:03 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:42 am
Stop peddling this utter fallacy. The facts have not changed. We've known for a long time now what demographic the virus hits, how easy it is to catch, and the fatality rate. Those facts haven't changed. Scientists don't tell the government what to do.They give the government options. Option A fight the virus to the fullest, and lock down the country. Option B try to contain the virus at the cost of 250K dead. Option C do nothing at the cost of 580K dead. The government, by not testing, not closing down schools and public places, not stopping travel, and by the PM's own admission; "we are going to lose a lot of our nearest and dearest" started off with Option C. They have since moved to Option B. Perhaps Cummings worked out that they'd lose too many voters?
This is ********. Yes they give government options but also make a clear and evidence based recommendation.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:11 am

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:10 pm
If the tories said that they would give a billion pounds to every child in poverty you would ask why it wasn’t a billion and one! You lot are so blinkered about the cult of Corbyn you can’t see that what the tories have actually done today is a good thing. The tories have done huge damage over the last ten years but today was a good day for them, you’re just too obsessed to admit it!
I criticise specific things, and I'm consistent. If you go far back enough on the previous board, you'll find me criticising the Labour government over the Iraq War, and over tuition fees. The really blinkered people are those who voted Tory in the last election because it meant a change away from austerity, or those who championed the last budget after claiming during the election that Labour would bankrupt the country.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:15 am

taio wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:03 am
This is ********. Yes they give government options but also make a clear and evidence based recommendation.
The government makes the final decision. I'm pleased they changed direction.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:25 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:15 am
The government makes the final decision. I'm pleased they changed direction.
Of course they do. Typically based on a recommendation from subject matter experts. That's how it works across all major government policy decisions. It's also why there are cross party scrutiny committees to influence and shape decision making based on the advice and recommendations of experts. Take the NHS Long Term Plan for example. Do you think that the Secretary of State came up with the plan and recommendations, or do you think NHS England did based on conversations with clinicians, organisations and public representatives, which the Secretary of State approved based on expert advice and then navigated it through the political system?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:36 am

dsr wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:07 am
Are you saying that the government is wrong to consider the economy at all, or that they were right to consider it but with the wrong weighting?
There should be a plan in place for eventualities like these. It's not like we didn't know it might happen. If there was no plan, then the government and civil service have questions to answer. If there was a plan and it wasn't implemented, then again questions should be answered.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:45 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:36 am
There should be a plan in place for eventualities like these. It's not like we didn't know it might happen. If there was no plan, then the government and civil service have questions to answer. If there was a plan and it wasn't implemented, then again questions should be answered.
The UK is brilliant at contingency and continuity planning. The efforts that are going on are quite remarkable but you obviously can't see it because you are just blinded by your political views. People, communities, organisations and politicians are coming together to tackle this crisis - thankfully the majority of people aren't distracted by political maneuvering and game playing.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Spijed » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:13 pm

taio wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:45 am
The UK is brilliant at contingency and continuity planning. The efforts that are going on are quite remarkable but you obviously can't see it because you are just blinded by your political views. People, communities, organisations and politicians are coming together to tackle this crisis - thankfully the majority of people aren't distracted by political maneuvering and game playing.
Really?

It's now clearly obvious that the government had got it horribly wrong with it's initial view on herd immunity with the UK being the outlier in terms of scientific advice.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10 ... s-approach
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taio
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:16 pm

Spijed wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:13 pm
Really?

It's now clearly obvious that the government had got it horribly wrong with it's initial view on herd immunity with the UK being the outlier in terms of scientific advice.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10 ... s-approach
Yes really. And it's not clearly obvious they got it horribly wrong at all - scaremongering nonsense.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Spijed » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:18 pm

taio wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:16 pm
Yes really. And it's not clearly obvious they got it horribly wrong at all - scaremongering nonsense.
Why is the herd immunity theory now deemed dangerous by that vast majority of scientists, and why aren't the government still trying to implement it?
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:23 pm

Spijed wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:18 pm
Why is the herd immunity theory now deemed dangerous by that vast majority of scientists, and why aren't the government still trying to implement it?
Can you evidence and quantify vast majority of scientists? How about waiting to see how things play how out and comparing say infection and mortality rates later before saying they have got it horribly wrong.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:35 pm

Im not posting the below article to say anybody got it right or wrong or that the article is right on all its opinions.

But for those pedaling a somewhat simple view that the experts advise and recommend and the govt just implement their advice then this article shows how much more complex it is.

When you have experts disagreeing, ministers disagreeing and different starting ideology's the governments leadership through decision making is absolutely key and they have to ultimately be accountable for both the good and bad outcomes their decisions lead to

Im still not prepared to comment on whether Johnson has made the right or wrong decisions throughtout this crisis as I just dont have enough info and understanding to know myself. That said this idea he is just implementing a single recommendation and not presiding over lots of different and conflicting sets of evidence, advice and options where his decision is crucial is just ridiculous

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10 ... s-approach

Its an unbelievably tough job for Johnson and his team which I dont envy and we shouldnt be using it to score points and undermine him but at the same time the well being of this nation is in his hands and there has to be room for people to challenge and hold to account without being ostricised for not being seen to just support the govt no matter what
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:39 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:35 pm
Im not posting the below article to say anybody got it right or wrong or that the article is right on all its opinions.

But for those pedaling a somewhat simple view that the experts advise and recommend and the govt just implement their advice then this article shows how much more complex it is.

When you have experts disagreeing, ministers disagreeing and different starting ideology's the governments leadership through decision making is absolutely key and they have to ultimately be accountable for both the good and bad outcomes their decisions lead to

Im still not prepared to comment on whether Johnson has made the right or wrong decisions throughtout this crisis as I just dont have enough info and understanding to know myself. That said this idea he is just implementing a single recommendation and not presiding over lots of different and conflicting sets of evidence, advice and options where his decision is crucial is just ridiculous

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10 ... s-approach

Its an unbelievably tough job for Johnson and his team which I dont envy and we shouldnt be using it to score points and undermine him but at the same time the well being of this nation is in his hands and there has to be room for people to challenge and hold to account without being ostricised for not being seen to just support the govt no matter what
I wasnt suggesting it was simple and without disagreement. I was making the point about the process which I know to be correct. Of course proposals have complex nuances and ultimately the government has to make and be responsible for its decision and adapt and change course as conditions change. I want our government to learn and be decisive rather than have a fixed and stubborn view - that to me is good leadership.

Fair play to your points which are balanced.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:46 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:41 am
Careful Ringo they will try and twist this to say its racist the labour hardcore lefties. Or now the monster raving loony party as I like to call them.
I know you're jesting, but there's more than a grain of truth in what you're saying.

Not last week, the week before, on the Coronavirus thread. I suggested that the border posts that have been allowed to fall into disrepair due to borderless Schengen zone rules that exist on free movement of people in the EU, could have been utilised in helping slow the spread of the virus and quarantining.

3 or 4 unthinking, logic lacking , clowns, piled in with the hysterical "you're racist " card! Lowbankclaret even threw in " Ringo Adolf Hitler McCartney " winning the award for, "Most Inappropriate, Frothing At The Mouth, Over Reaction Of The Year! "

The following days saw Austria, Slovenia, Slovakia, Poland, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Malta, New Zealand, Israel, Turkey, Pakistan and many many more announce they were introducing greatly restricted border controls. Belatedly, even the EU itself, announced its external borders were effectively shut. Followed by a further announcement that the Schengen Zone itself was to be temporarily suspended!!

I suggested that , given what I'd suggested , had been adopted by countries all over the globe, without them being accused of "racist bile" . They should retract their facile and vacuous labelling me as a "racist"

With the exception of Gordale man, ( fair play to him) non of them had the humility to admit theyd over reacted big time , when they threw their communal adolescent level imbecilic hissy fit. Ksr claret, an A level teacher, decided to upload a photo a rat , saying saying like the rat I pop up and carry the virus!!

They are as classy as they are moronic....

When you say " free movement of people = free movement of the virus " and you're branded "racist" by left wing zealots. Its would be easy to dismiss them. The right thing to do, in my opinion, is to feel a bit sorry for them.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:48 pm

taio wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:39 pm
I wasnt suggesting it was simple and without disagreement. I was making the point about the process which I know to be correct. Of course proposals have complex nuances and ultimately the government has to make and be responsible for its decision and adapt and change course as conditions change. I want our government to learn and be decisive rather than have a fixed and stubborn view - that to me is good leadership.
I know you have been discussing the issue prior to my post but it wasnt aimed at you or anyone specific. I have seen a narrative developing on here that Johnson cant get it wrong he can only act on the info provided.

I am challenging this saying that all country's and their leaders will all have lots of advice, scientific evidence and a whole range of options and they are the leaders because they are the ones we elect and trust to take on all that info and take the decision and course they believe will be best.

Again im not saying Johnson has got it wrong and Ive stated its an impossible job but the fact is we live and die by his decisions and therefore they need to be questioned as does his ability to lead the country if his decisions prove to be flawed and costly in the long run

On the flip side if he steers us through it better than other countrys he will rightly be lauded and credited for doing so

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:54 pm

joey13 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:51 am
You keep your head in the sand , unbelievable

Who ever was PM, this virus would have handed them a poison chalice.

An unenviable task of balancing, the natural humanitarian urge to preserve as many lives as is possible. And, trying to ensure that when, God willing, we come out of this horrendous situation. There's actually a viable economy left to come out to.

The enormity of the task , whoever had to do it. Cannot be overestimated.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:59 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:48 pm
I know you have been discussing the issue prior to my post but it wasnt aimed at you or anyone specific. I have seen a narrative developing on here that Johnson cant get it wrong he can only act on the info provided.

I am challenging this saying that all country's and their leaders will all have lots of advice, scientific evidence and a whole range of options and they are the leaders because they are the ones we elect and trust to take on all that info and take the decision and course they believe will be best.

Again im not saying Johnson has got it wrong and Ive stated its an impossible job but the fact is we live and die by his decisions and therefore they need to be questioned as does his ability to lead the country if his decisions prove to be flawed and costly in the long run

On the flip side if he steers us through it better than other countrys he will rightly be lauded and credited for doing so
Your points are good and fair. I appreciate you were making a general point but my specific point was to counter the ridiculous suggestion that the experts just present a bunch of options and say to Johnson "here are some choices, pick which one you want because we are not going to advise you on the best one"

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:08 pm

taio wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:59 pm
Your points are good and fair. I appreciate you were making a general point but my specific point was to counter the ridiculous suggestion that the experts just present a bunch of options and say to Johnson "here are some choices, pick which one you want because we are not going to advise you on the best one"
Sounds like we are not that far apart in our own views but just coming at things from a slightly different angle

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:10 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:42 am
Stop peddling this utter fallacy. The facts have not changed. We've known for a long time now what demographic the virus hits, how easy it is to catch, and the fatality rate. Those facts haven't changed. Scientists don't tell the government what to do.They give the government options. Option A fight the virus to the fullest, and lock down the country. Option B try to contain the virus at the cost of 250K dead. Option C do nothing at the cost of 580K dead. The government, by not testing, not closing down schools and public places, not stopping travel, and by the PM's own admission; "we are going to lose a lot of our nearest and dearest" started off with Option C. They have since moved to Option B. Perhaps Cummings worked out that they'd lose too many voters?
Other European countries have different , unique, needs, strengths, weaknesses, demographics, infrastructure, resources. An example being that the Austrian and Slovenian governments closed their borders Tuesday last week. Where as, the German government didn't do it till Monday this week. Almost a full week behind. There's clearly not a one size fits all approach to tackling this horrendous epidemic.

Your claim that "the facts havent changed" is fundamentally wrong. The modelling, used by the Chief Medical Officer and his team , is based on a fast changing , and , very fluid situation. The variables will be changing by the hour. Importantly, initially, the information on which it was based, was coming from China. More recently it has been coming from Italy. The more information, the more accurate the advice should be.

You , Andrew, whether you agree or not , are not privy to information regarding-

supply chains,
infrastructure strengths and weaknesses,
armed forces deployment availability,
potential reserves capabilities,
existing medical supplies,
medical resources,
staffing,
the very real potential for civil unrest, how to mitigate it and just how quickly this can all be actioned.
And a whole host of variables and contingencies that are literally changing by the hour

For the love of God, stop your ceaseless , repetitive, predictable, and ultimately, pointless, sniping at the government.

Please, please, please, accept the simple, undeniable truth that had the government been a Corbyn Government, it would be faced with exactly the same unenviable, horrendous set of circumstances. Having to seek advice and guidance, from the very same medical experts , as this government is having to do.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by joey13 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:11 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:54 pm
Who ever was PM, this virus would have handed them a poison chalice.

An unenviable task of balancing, the natural humanitarian urge to preserve as many lives as is possible. And, trying to ensure that when, God willing, we come out of this horrendous situation. There's actually a viable economy left to come out to.

The enormity of the task , whoever had to do it. Cannot be overestimated.
Maybe read this before congratulating your glorious leader
https://www.wired.com/story/taiwan-is-b ... -the-same/

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:24 pm

joey13 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:11 pm
Maybe read this before congratulating your glorious leader
https://www.wired.com/story/taiwan-is-b ... -the-same/
So , as a way of trying to, unsuccessfully, have a pop at our government . You hold up an example of another countries approach. Any plans to hold the same level of expectation and belief in a, "one size fits all " approach towards the German, Spanish, Italian governments and the EU?

Pathetic.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Holtyclaret » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:33 pm

Spijed wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:18 pm
Why is the herd immunity theory now deemed dangerous by that vast majority of scientists, and why aren't the government still trying to implement it?
Because of new evidence, learning all the time. Like every other country.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by BennyD » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:38 pm

Just about to fire up the bbq for a neighbours self isolation celebration. Got lots of Corona in, so it should go well.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:07 pm

Spijed wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:13 pm
Really?

It's now clearly obvious that the government had got it horribly wrong with it's initial view on herd immunity with the UK being the outlier in terms of scientific advice.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10 ... s-approach
The link shows that in actual fact , it was the government's medical advisers who couldn't agree on a consensus as to which was the best approach. Herd immunity or lock down. It was not the government itself.

If your going to upload a link , you may want to check that it does actually support your assertion.
Spijed wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:13 pm
Why is the herd immunity theory now deemed dangerous by that vast majority of scientists, and why aren't the government still trying to implement it?
So, let me get this straight. If the government had continued pursuing the herd immunity approach following initial advice from the Chief medical officer and his team. Whereas other countries had gone down the lockdown route. I think it's fair to say youd have been criticising the government for something on the lines of, stubborn, ploughing a lonely furrow, misguided, out of step with scientific consensus, having the interests of big business at heart, not giving a toss about the workers, looking after the banks, putting the economy before human life. Youd have had a field day!

But when the scientists advising the government, in unprecedented, rapidly, changing circumstances, did arrive at a consensus and recommended the government take a different approach. Which they duly did. Then your want is to criticise them again for simply simply changing their minds, as did the science!!!!

Towards the government, you seem to have the attitude that, whatever they did its -

"Heads I win, tales you lose"

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by dsr » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:36 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:36 am
There should be a plan in place for eventualities like these. It's not like we didn't know it might happen. If there was no plan, then the government and civil service have questions to answer. If there was a plan and it wasn't implemented, then again questions should be answered.
Fortunately there was a plan, and it was implemented. If what you were hoping for was a day-by-day plan setting out exactly how any possible crisis will pan out, perhaps that'#s why you're so disappointed with the results.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Gordaleman » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:39 pm


AndrewJB
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:57 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:10 pm
Other European countries have different , unique, needs, strengths, weaknesses, demographics, infrastructure, resources. An example being that the Austrian and Slovenian governments closed their borders Tuesday last week. Where as, the German government didn't do it till Monday this week. Almost a full week behind. There's clearly not a one size fits all approach to tackling this horrendous epidemic.

Your claim that "the facts havent changed" is fundamentally wrong. The modelling, used by the Chief Medical Officer and his team , is based on a fast changing , and , very fluid situation. The variables will be changing by the hour. Importantly, initially, the information on which it was based, was coming from China. More recently it has been coming from Italy. The more information, the more accurate the advice should be.

You , Andrew, whether you agree or not , are not privy to information regarding-

supply chains,
infrastructure strengths and weaknesses,
armed forces deployment availability,
potential reserves capabilities,
existing medical supplies,
medical resources,
staffing,
the very real potential for civil unrest, how to mitigate it and just how quickly this can all be actioned.
And a whole host of variables and contingencies that are literally changing by the hour

For the love of God, stop your ceaseless , repetitive, predictable, and ultimately, pointless, sniping at the government.

Please, please, please, accept the simple, undeniable truth that had the government been a Corbyn Government, it would be faced with exactly the same unenviable, horrendous set of circumstances. Having to seek advice and guidance, from the very same medical experts , as this government is having to do.
Did we know that we have no immunity to this virus? Yes. Did we know how fast it spreads? Yes. Did we understand the fatality rate? Yes. We knew all of this before the virus got here. Therefore decisions taken to do little or nothing were taken in full knowledge of how many people it was likely to kill. As I've pointed out, other countries locked down quicker than us. The virus doesn't act any differently in Austria than it does in France or here.

Why are you twisting and turning on this? You're effectively saying "on no account can Johnson or the government be held responsible for decisions made during this crisis". It doesn't work that way. He's the PM. We'll see when the report comes out - if they release it.

You're one of the most partisan posters on this board. Entirely unable to accept criticism of the Tory Party, and like many, full of double standards. I've heard you claim "Labour over spent" when last in office - when we all know there was a financial crash. That was the last crisis the country had before this one. By your reasoning whatever state the economy is in after this crisis, it will be the fault of the Tory Party.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:03 pm

Spijed wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:18 pm
Why is the herd immunity theory now deemed dangerous by that vast majority of scientists, and why aren't the government still trying to implement it?
They did implement it. It was always a case, as they stated from day 1, how long they ran with the herd immunity. They decided that this was the week when it should be pulled, on the grounds that enough people had contracted it to make self isolation worth while. I haven't read anywhere that the theory was deemed dangerous, only the timing of stopping it could prove dangerous. Too late and too many people will die, too early and not enough people will contract it and we will be going through exactly the same process again in 2 months time.
One thing that does seem to have caught them is London. It appears that it has spread quicker than expected in the capitol, and one area of the midlands. Everywhere else, if people follow the governments guidelines will be fine. I'm sure there must be, but I don't know of anyone who has it within 50 miles of me. Therein is the problem, some parts of the country it was always likely to spread quicker than others.
It's possible to go out and carry on with our daily lives without coming into contact or close proximity of other people, but those who choose to ignore the advice given by the government are a danger, sadly more probably to others than themselves.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:08 pm

It seems like some people believe the science and medical advisors are actually responsible for decision making.

Locked