Boris Watch

[taio]

It seems like some people believe the science and medical advisors are actually responsible for decision making.

No. People are saying scientists and medics are advising and making recommendations to the government and then the government takes the decisions and the responsibility for those decisions.

[arise_sir_charge]

Just another point, had the Government been ignoring the recommendations of the advisers do you honestly think the same people would still be stood side by side with the PM discussing and supporting a policy and plan they disagree with?

They’d have been long gone.

[Cryssys]

The link shows that in actual fact , it was the government's medical advisers who couldn't agree on a consensus as to which was the best approach. Herd immunity or lock down. It was not the government itself.

All governments receive advice from experts on a wide range of issues. The job of those in power is to listen to that advice and then decide what to do. Once you make a decision it becomes your responsibility and you are accountable for it. If that decision turns out to be wrong then it's your fault.

That's how business/politics works, even/especially in times like these.

[Cryssys]

Just another point, had the Government been ignoring the recommendations of the advisers do you honestly think the same people would still be stood side by side with the PM discussing and supporting a policy and plan they disagree with?

Yes. Some of these experts may be tearing their hair out in private but at the end of the day they have to present a united front to the public.

You don't break ranks in situations like these.

[dsr]

All governments receive advice from experts on a wide range of issues. The job of those in power is to listen to that advice and then decide what to do. Once you make a decision it becomes your responsibility and you are accountable for it. If that decision turns out to be wrong then it's your fault.

That's how business/politics works, even/especially in times like these.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You were doing all right until the bolded bit. Yes, it is governemnt's decision to listen to experts and make decisions; it is the government's job to accept responsibility and be accountable for it. But that does not necessarily mean that if it goes wrong, it is the government's fault.

Compare it with other matters of life and death - eg. a surgeon. A surgeon might make all decisions in accordance with best advice and a surgeon will be accountable for the end results. But if a surgeon acts under best advice and with best knowledge and the patient dies, then even if another path of action would have had a better result, it does not make it the surgeon's fault that the patient died.

[Taffy on the wing]

Just another point, had the Government been ignoring the recommendations of the advisers do you honestly think the same people would still be stood side by side with the PM discussing and supporting a policy and plan they disagree with?

They’d have been long gone.

Rubbish!.......they have Mortgages too tha nose.

[TheFamilyCat]

No. People are saying scientists and medics are advising and making recommendations to the government and then the government takes the decisions and the responsibility for those decisions.

No, some posters, and one in particular are finding it difficult to grasp that the experts are only advising and not making the decisions.

[Jakubclaret]

No, some posters, and one on particular is finding it difficult to grasp that the experts are only advising and not making the decisions.

The experts near as damn it make the final decisions by heavily influencing it, it's as good as getting the tea stuff in & paying for it & making & serving the meal & then washing up, the person who eats the tea makes the decision. You might as well say the experts make the decisions if not in name only.

[dsr]

No, some posters, and one in particular are finding it difficult to grasp that the experts are only advising and not making the decisions.

Of course the government are making the decisions. But first, foremost, and above all else, the decision is to do what the advisers tell them to do.

Are there people who genuinely believe that Boris Johnson has listened to what his medical advisers have said and has listened to their advice and said "no, I have a better idea ..."?

And even worse, are there actually people who think that is what he is supposed to be doing?

[Cryssys]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You were doing all right until the bolded bit. Yes, it is governemnt's decision to listen to experts and make decisions; it is the government's job to accept responsibility and be accountable for it. But that does not necessarily mean that if it goes wrong, it is the government's fault.

Fair comment. It's a fine distinction and a lot/most people won't see it like that. For them, it's a simple equation: government makes a decision that turns out to be wrong then the government is at fault. That's the way it works, that's where the buck stops.

[atlantalad]

Interesting read:
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

Given the data the UK is doing better than some other EU counties with similar size or less population. So was initial herd immunity strategy right or wrong?

[tim_noone]

Of course the government are making the decisions. But first, foremost, and above all else, the decision is to do what the advisers tell them to do.

Are there people who genuinely believe that Boris Johnson has listened to what his medical advisers have said and has listened to their advice and said "no, I have a better idea ..."?

And even worse, are there actually people who think that is what he is supposed to be doing?

Quote Gordleman..I Have the Best ideas regarding the covid-19 virus.. period!!

[Darnhill Claret]

Are we all forgetting COBRA in the decision making processes?

[tim_noone]

Are we all forgetting COBRA in the decision making processes?

I Dont know what it means....might google it.

[TheFamilyCat]

Of course the government are making the decisions. But first, foremost, and above all else, the decision is to do what the advisers tell them to do.

Are there people who genuinely believe that Boris Johnson has listened to what his medical advisers have said and has listened to their advice and said "no, I have a better idea ..."?

And even worse, are there actually people who think that is what he is supposed to be doing?

As far as I am aware the two particular experts, or at least the two with hin during the press conferences are the Chief Medical Officer for England Chris Whitty and Chief Scientific Adviser. Now I don't doubt them on the medical knowledge nor the advice and recommendations they are providing. However, they are not, as far as I am aware financial or economic experts; the government has to balance the medical advice against all other factors and make the decisions.

[Cryssys]

Of course the government are making the decisions. But first, foremost, and above all else, the decision is to do what the advisers tell them to do.

Are there people who genuinely believe that Boris Johnson has listened to what his medical advisers have said and has listened to their advice and said "no, I have a better idea ..."?

And even worse, are there actually people who think that is what he is supposed to be doing?

There will be roomfuls of experts advising on a whole range of concerns including medical, social, economic and ethical issues. Not all the advice will be the same, some of it will be contradictory so he can't always do what his advisers tell him to do. Advisers will be influenced by the area of policy they are advising on. In the end the government has no choice other than ignore the advice of some experts in favour of others.

I'm not suggesting that BJ is saying he has better ideas, just that he will be presented with a lot of ideas and he has choose which ones to go with and which ones to ignore. What happens next depends on the decisions he makes now and that is what he will be judged on.

[IanMcL]

Yes. Some of these experts may be tearing their hair out in private but at the end of the day they have to present a united front to the public.

You don't break ranks in situations like these.

There is at least a knighthood at stake.

[IanMcL]

I had a call from my MP today.
A couple of days ago, he drew the short straw for fronting the commons, when the answers were coming the following day!

Anyway, he has gone off to try and help sort an issue for me. Cannot ask more than that, especially at this time.

Lucky for him the match was postponed today!

[joey13]

So , as a way of trying to, unsuccessfully, have a pop at our government . You hold up an example of another countries approach. Any plans to hold the same level of expectation and belief in a, "one size fits all " approach towards the German, Spanish, Italian governments and the EU?

Pathetic.

Really , you will always defend the serial liar Johnson ,it’s clear that due to his negligence more people are dying UK the trajectory is higher than Italy’s
Germany and Spain but you carry on defending the fraud if it keeps your simple mind happy .

[arise_sir_charge]

Rubbish!.......they have Mortgages too tha nose.

Utter ********. You should be ashamed.

[dsr]

There is at least a knighthood at stake.

If that's a joke, it's in poor taste.

On the other hand, if it's not a joke, and you genuinely believe that these two gentlemen would allow people to die so they could get a knighthood ... let's just call it a joke, shall we?

[RingoMcCartney]

Did we know that we have no immunity to this virus? Yes. Did we know how fast it spreads? Yes. Did we understand the fatality rate? Yes. We knew all of this before the virus got here. Therefore decisions taken to do little or nothing were taken in full knowledge of how many people it was likely to kill. As I've pointed out, other countries locked down quicker than us. The virus doesn't act any differently in Austria than it does in France or here.

Why are you twisting and turning on this? You're effectively saying "on no account can Johnson or the government be held responsible for decisions made during this crisis". It doesn't work that way. He's the PM. We'll see when the report comes out - if they release it.

You're one of the most partisan posters on this board. Entirely unable to accept criticism of the Tory Party, and like many, full of double standards. I've heard you claim "Labour over spent" when last in office - when we all know there was a financial crash. That was the last crisis the country had before this one. By your reasoning whatever state the economy is in after this crisis, it will be the fault of the Tory Party.

Labour didn't overspend?

When they left office a note was left in the treasury it was left by Labours Liam Byrne, chief secretary to the treasury under Gordon Brown. It said ,

"Sorry, there is no money"



For the love of God, stop your ceaseless , repetitive, predictable, and ultimately, pointless, sniping at the government.

Please, please, please, accept the simple, undeniable truth that had the government been a Corbyn Government, it would be faced with exactly the same unenviable, horrendous set of circumstances. Having to seek advice and guidance, from the very same medical experts , as this government is having to do.

[RingoMcCartney]

All governments receive advice from experts on a wide range of issues. The job of those in power is to listen to that advice and then decide what to do. Once you make a decision it becomes your responsibility and you are accountable for it. If that decision turns out to be wrong then it's your fault.

That's how business/politics works, even/especially in times like these.

Agreed.

Looking at the opinion polls , the vast majority of the people feel that the government is getting it right.

[BennyD]

I Dont know what it means....might google it.

COBRA stands for Cabinet Office Briefing Room Alpha. It’s merely the place where high level meetings take place, so the people in those meetings are known as COBRA.

[RingoMcCartney]

Really , you will always defend the serial liar Johnson ,it’s clear that due to his negligence more people are dying UK the trajectory is higher than Italy’s
Germany and Spain but you carry on defending the fraud if it keeps your simple mind happy .

Oh dear.

[tim_noone]

COBRA stands for Cabinet Office Briefing Room Alpha. It’s merely the place where high level meetings take place, so the people in those meetings are known as COBRA.

It was in response to gordleman baiting me.COBR the A denotes a Door? He knows everything though..so I may be wrong.

[tim_noone]

Really , you will always defend the serial liar Johnson ,it’s clear that due to his negligence more people are dying UK the trajectory is higher than Italy’s
Germany and Spain but you carry on defending the fraud if it keeps your simple mind happy .

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt Joey to be fair.... the great British public in parts are dumb.

[IanMcL]

If that's a joke, it's in poor taste.

On the other hand, if it's not a joke, and you genuinely believe that these two gentlemen would allow people to die so they could get a knighthood ... let's just call it a joke, shall we?

Not a joke.

Nor do I believe they are allowing folk to die, in exchange for a knighthood. No one is allowing folk to die.

What they are though, are 'experts' without real expertise, as these things do not necessarily follow the pattern you would wish or predict. They give an opinion- probably more than one option/outcome and the politicians make a choice. They don't break ranks and they get a knighthood.

The guy they put on tv, from Wiltshire Council, who 'worked with the agencies, on behalf of WC', during Novichok, got an OBE.

These are 'top of the tree' folk, so a knighthood!

[Somethingfishy]

Did we know that we have no immunity to this virus? Yes. Did we know how fast it spreads? Yes. Did we understand the fatality rate? Yes. We knew all of this before the virus got here. Therefore decisions taken to do little or nothing were taken in full knowledge of how many people it was likely to kill. As I've pointed out, other countries locked down quicker than us. The virus doesn't act any differently in Austria than it does in France or here.

Why are you twisting and turning on this? You're effectively saying "on no account can Johnson or the government be held responsible for decisions made during this crisis". It doesn't work that way. He's the PM. We'll see when the report comes out - if they release it.

You're one of the most partisan posters on this board. Entirely unable to accept criticism of the Tory Party, and like many, full of double standards. I've heard you claim "Labour over spent" when last in office - when we all know there was a financial crash. That was the last crisis the country had before this one. By your reasoning whatever state the economy is in after this crisis, it will be the fault of the Tory Party.

Quite an astounding comment from one of..if not the most partisan..Labour are the cure to all our problems and can do no wrong..Corbyn is a demi-god posters on the board. You may have some basis in accusing Ringo of what you have but i would say people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones comes to mind. Genuinely aghast and amused that you of all people have thrown that accusation at someone.

[timshorts]

Quite an astounding comment from one of..if not the most partisan..Labour are the cure to all our problems and can do no wrong..Corbyn is a demi-god posters on the board. You may have some basis in accusing Ringo of what you have but i would say people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones comes to mind. Genuinely aghast and amused that you of all people have thrown that accusation at someone.

To be fair, Andrew is probably spot on with that last paragraph. You probably are too, but then andrew didn't deny that he was partisan himself.
It's not unhelpful for us to know what the party lines are on these types of threads. We don't have to agree with either of them.

[Midmoorclaret]

"What they are though, are 'experts' without real expertise, as these things do not necessarily follow the pattern you would wish or predict. They give an opinion- probably more than one option/outcome and the politicians make a choice. They don't break ranks and they get a knighthood."

Ian, I don't think SIR Patrick Vallance can get ANOTHER knighthood if he's one of the two you are referring to.

[joey13]

Oh dear.
[/https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2005755

You keep denying the facts

[Devils_Advocate]

Sunday Times leading with the powerful story today that Cummings led the govt strategy of herd immunity and the initial focus on the need to avoid economic and social disruption.

This seems consistent the messaging from both Hancock and Johnson especially how Johnson boasted about shaking in hands with people and encouraging people to continue to act as normal

Those present with Cummings when he first started to push his strategy say it "herd immunity, protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die than so bad"

Im sure there's a lot more to come from both sides but if true this is absolutely damning for Johnson and his govt and those who think we should just be blowing smoke up Johnson's arse and dont think we should be having political discussion on this crisis and challenging the govt on their actions need to have a good long look at themselves

To try and shut down political debate and attack those criticising the govt are more the actions of people playing out their party politics and wanting to point score than those wanting a genuine debate about are we getting things right and are we holding those in charge to account

[TVC15]

Listen to what doctors and nurses are saying and choose whether you believe them or Johnson and his lying cronies.

Doctors and nurses are being asked to go “over the top” like the First World War without the correct masks, equipment and without having the test to see if they have the virus. The government are telling people that the NHS has been equipped with adequate protection - that is a lie.
Anyone who knows a nurse or doctor ask them about the paper flimsy mask that some of them might have received last week or the pathetic plastic apron.
Why is what they are being provided not in line with World Health advice ? Why are the likes of South Korea and many other countries providing much better protection and testing ?

[taio]

Listen to what doctors and nurses are saying and choose whether you believe them or Johnson and his lying cronies.

Doctors and nurses are being asked to go “over the top” like the First World War without the correct masks, equipment and without having the test to see if they have the virus. The government are telling people that the NHS has been equipped with adequate protection - that is a lie.
Anyone who knows a nurse or doctor ask them about the paper flimsy mask that some of them might have received last week or the pathetic plastic apron.
Why is what they are being provided not in line with World Health advice ? Why are the likes of South Korea and many other countries providing much better protection and testing ?

Those doctors and nurses should certainly be listened to. The government and NHS England is also clear this needs to be resolved urgently:

 "Our NHS should feel that they are able to interact with patients with perfect security and protection.

"There is a massive effort going on, comparable to the effort to build enough ventilators, to ensure that we have adequate supplies of PPE equipment not just now, but throughout the outbreak."

It's obviously an enormous strain on NHS supply chains but I understand that millions of items of PPE kit continue to be distributed to hospital trusts, GP practices, care providers etc.

[RingoMcCartney]

You keep denying the facts

Days That Changed Britain: "Heated" Debate Between Scientists Forced Boris Johnson To Act On Coronavirus


https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10 ... s-approach


There was no consensus. Several of the scientists frantically argued that the UK must immediately introduce social distancing to halt the spread of the virus. Some pleaded with the government to change tack or face dire consequences.

But others continued to believe that introducing social distancing now would be unsustainable for a long period and would lead to a more disastrous second wave of infection.

The days-long debate between the experts themselves and with the government was “heated” and “extremely difficult”, multiple sources familiar with the discussions told BuzzFeed News. Vallance admitted as much at a health select committee hearing this week: “If you think SAGE is a cosy consensus of agreeing, you're very wrong indeed”.

The extent of the disagreement between the nation’s top scientists and the government can be revealed at the end of one of the most extraordinary weeks in modern British history.

Had the government been a Corbyn government. It would've had to have taken the same guidance and advice from the same advisors, who would've been having the same disagreements.

That is a FACT that YOU need to stop denying.

[TheFamilyCat]

Please, please, please, accept the simple, undeniable truth that had the government been a Corbyn Government, it would be faced with exactly the same unenviable, horrendous set of circumstances. Having to seek advice and guidance, from the very same medical experts , as this government is having to do.

You keep repeating this but you do realise that on receipt of this advice, the government then has to make decisions don't you? And those decisions have far more factors to consider than just medical. And others with input into these are members of the government or party advisors.

No long winded response required; just a yes or a no. Do you realise there is a decision making process involved?

[RingoMcCartney]

Sunday Times leading with the powerful story today that Cummings led the govt strategy of herd immunity and the initial focus on the need to avoid economic and social disruption.

This seems consistent the messaging from both Hancock and Johnson especially how Johnson boasted about shaking in hands with people and encouraging people to continue to act as normal

Those present with Cummings when he first started to push his strategy say it "herd immunity, protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die than so bad"

Im sure there's a lot more to come from both sides but if true this is absolutely damning for Johnson and his govt and those who think we should just be blowing smoke up Johnson's arse and dont think we should be having political discussion on this crisis and challenging the govt on their actions need to have a good long look at themselves

To try and shut down political debate and attack those criticising the govt are more the actions of people playing out their party politics and wanting to point score than those wanting a genuine debate about are we getting things right and are we holding those in charge to account

Days That Changed Britain: "Heated" Debate Between Scientists Forced Boris Johnson To Act On Coronavirus


https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10 ... s-approach


There was no consensus. Several of the scientists frantically argued that the UK must immediately introduce social distancing to halt the spread of the virus. Some pleaded with the government to change tack or face dire consequences.

But others continued to believe that introducing social distancing now would be unsustainable for a long period and would lead to a more disastrous second wave of infection.

The days-long debate between the experts themselves and with the government was “heated” and “extremely difficult”, multiple sources familiar with the discussions told BuzzFeed News. Vallance admitted as much at a health select committee hearing this week: “If you think SAGE is a cosy consensus of agreeing, you're very wrong indeed”.

The extent of the disagreement between the nation’s top scientists and the government can be revealed at the end of one of the most extraordinary weeks in modern British history.

Had the government been a Corbyn government. It would've had to have taken the same guidance and advice from the same advisors, who would've been having the same disagreements.


Perhaps, just perhaps, what you describe as "Dominic Cummings Strategy" was simply the advice by from the chief medical officer who was advising and guiding the government.

It would have been the same advice had there been a labour government.

[RingoMcCartney]

You keep repeating this but you do realise that on receipt of this advice, the government then has to make decisions don't you? And those decisions have far more factors to consider than just medical. And others with input into these are members of the government or party advisors.

No long winded response required; just a yes or a no. Do you realise there is a decision making process involved?

Do not patronize me.

This was part of an answer I gave to the utterly blinkered Andrew JB 3 days ago before you popped up.

Thursday Mar 19, 2020 11:26 am

"supply chains,
infrastructure strengths and weaknesses,
armed forces deployment availability,
potential reserves capabilities,
existing medical supplies,
medical resources,
staffing,
the very real potential for civil unrest, how to mitigate it and just how quickly this can all be actioned.
And a whole host of variables and contingencies that are literally changing by the hour."

So yes, I do realise "that on receipt of this advice, the government then has to make decisions. And those decisions have far more factors to consider than just medical."

So wind your neck in.

[Devils_Advocate]

Days That Changed Britain: "Heated" Debate Between Scientists Forced Boris Johnson To Act On Coronavirus


https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10 ... s-approach


There was no consensus. Several of the scientists frantically argued that the UK must immediately introduce social distancing to halt the spread of the virus. Some pleaded with the government to change tack or face dire consequences.

But others continued to believe that introducing social distancing now would be unsustainable for a long period and would lead to a more disastrous second wave of infection.

The days-long debate between the experts themselves and with the government was “heated” and “extremely difficult”, multiple sources familiar with the discussions told BuzzFeed News. Vallance admitted as much at a health select committee hearing this week: “If you think SAGE is a cosy consensus of agreeing, you're very wrong indeed”.

The extent of the disagreement between the nation’s top scientists and the government can be revealed at the end of one of the most extraordinary weeks in modern British history.

Had the government been a Corbyn government. It would've had to have taken the same guidance and advice from the same advisors, who would've been having the same disagreements.


Perhaps, just perhaps, what you describe as "Dominic Cummings Strategy" was simply the advice by from the chief medical officer who was advising and guiding the government.

It would have been the same advice had there been a labour government.

Nope Cummings started pushing this at the end of Feb based on his take on the numbers. More likely is that when someone with as much power and influence as Cummings is driving an idea forward you will get a section of experts and advisers who will try and please and try and find a case for his position being correct.

The assertion of this story (IF correct as also stated in my other post) is that this strategy is completely the work of Cummings and he lent on Johnson and team to back his view to the hilt

A Corbyn govt would not have had such an unscrupulous egotistical maniac as Cummings anywhere near them so no the discussions and arguments would not just have been the same

Get your head out of your arse for once in your life cos some of your posting on these Covid-19 threads have been an embarrassment.

I've been keeping out of the childish bickering and Im not gonna get dragged into it by the messageboards biggest bore so enjoy your sunday and remember to wipe Johnson's sh*t off your nose when youre finished

[taio]

One thing is clear to me despite being a Tory supporter, Cummings is a complete t**t who has been given far too much power.

[jrgbfc]

One thing is clear to me despite being a Tory supporter, Cummings is a complete t**t who has been given far too much power.

Cummings is basically running the country, Boris is just a puppet.

[TheFamilyCat]

Do not patronize me.

This was part of an answer I gave to the utterly blinkered Andrew JB 2 days ago before you popped up.

"supply chains,
infrastructure strengths and weaknesses,
armed forces deployment availability,
potential reserves capabilities,
existing medical supplies,
medical resources,
staffing,
the very real potential for civil unrest, how to mitigate it and just how quickly this can all be actioned.
And a whole host of variables and contingencies that are literally changing by the hour."

I quoted it from a post you made in the early hours of this morning.

Your defence of the government "whoever was in charge would have got the same advice" demonstrates an incredible level of naivety.

I notice you failed to answer the question.

[taio]

Cummings is basically running the country, Boris is just a puppet.

I dislike Cummings and he's got far too much control but the above is fallacy.

[RingoMcCartney]

Nope Cummings started pushing this at the end of Feb based on his take on the numbers.

So you have access to Number 10 then?

I've been keeping out of the childish bickering and Im not gonna get dragged into it by the messageboards biggest bore so enjoy your sunday and remember to wipe Johnson's sh*t off your nose when youre finished

I reckon you've just shot yourself in the foot.

[TVC15]

Another thread ruined by this tit

[RingoMcCartney]

I quoted it from a post you made in the early hours of this morning.

Your defence of the government "whoever was in charge would have got the same advice" demonstrates an incredible level of naivety.

I notice you failed to answer the question.

Can you actually read!?

You asked -

" you do realise that on receipt of this advice, the government then has to make decisions don't you? And those decisions have far more factors to consider than just medical. And others with input into these are members of the government or party advisors.. Do you realise there is a decision making process involved?"

I then posted a list,

"supply chains,
infrastructure strengths and weaknesses,
armed forces deployment availability,
potential reserves capabilities,
existing medical supplies,
medical resources,
staffing,
the very real potential for civil unrest, how to mitigate it and just how quickly this can all be actioned.
And a whole host of variables and contingencies that are literally changing by the hour."

Surely you can compute that when I mention "armed forces " that means defence chiefs will be part of the decision making process. The biggest give away was the line - "a whole host of variables and contingencies that are literally changing by the hour."

But hey, you try and pretend I didn't answer you, and wasnt already saying there was a whole host of factors in the decision making process on Thursday Mar 19, 2020 11:26 am

If you arent able to read the thread, to see if people have already confirmed what you're asking. And when they explain that in a answer to you personall and you're unable to simply absorbing it. It really is perhaps is time to wind your neck in.

[RingoMcCartney]

Who ever was PM, this virus would have handed them a poison chalice.

An unenviable task of balancing, the natural humanitarian urge to preserve as many lives as is possible. And, trying to ensure that when, God willing, we come out of this horrendous situation. Theres actually a viable economy left to come out to.

The enormity of the task , whoever had to do it. Cannot be underestimated.

[joey13]

Days That Changed Britain: "Heated" Debate Between Scientists Forced Boris Johnson To Act On Coronavirus


https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10 ... s-approach


There was no consensus. Several of the scientists frantically argued that the UK must immediately introduce social distancing to halt the spread of the virus. Some pleaded with the government to change tack or face dire consequences.

But others continued to believe that introducing social distancing now would be unsustainable for a long period and would lead to a more disastrous second wave of infection.

The days-long debate between the experts themselves and with the government was “heated” and “extremely difficult”, multiple sources familiar with the discussions told BuzzFeed News. Vallance admitted as much at a health select committee hearing this week: “If you think SAGE is a cosy consensus of agreeing, you're very wrong indeed”.

The extent of the disagreement between the nation’s top scientists and the government can be revealed at the end of one of the most extraordinary weeks in modern British history.

Had the government been a Corbyn government. It would've had to have taken the same guidance and advice from the same advisors, who would've been having the same disagreements.

That is a FACT that YOU need to stop denying.

So now you have changed your defence of Johnson to saying that a Corbyn government would have done the same , says it all really , goodbye

[RingoMcCartney]

So now you have changed your defence of Johnson to saying that a Corbyn government would have done the same , says it all really , goodbye

Prime Minister Johnson is simply doing exactly, what Prime Minister, Corbyn/Starmer/Swinson would've had to do.

Which is, listening to the advice of the Chief Medical Officer and his team. That advice would have been the same, regardless of who had the keys to Number 10.

The modelling is based on a fast changing , and , very fluid situation. The variables will be changing by the hour. The more information, the more accurate the advice should be.

The one and only reason the PM has changed the government's approach. Is because his advice has now changed.

As a socialist, you'll , no doubt, be familiar with the words of John Maynard Keynes -

"When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?"

Goodbye