Boris Watch

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ksrclaret
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by ksrclaret » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:53 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:50 pm
The solitary nature of self isolation is clearly getting to you.

Go out and get some fresh air. Do you a power of good.

Hopefully
No not quite, do you give up or would you like to try again petal? Have another look at the letters and you’ll see where you went wrong

Hopefully

tiger76
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by tiger76 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:56 pm

aggi wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:49 pm
My friend is at home, unpaid at the moment. It seems social distancing isn't really possible, there's too much where you need to be in close proximity. However, the owner of the business wants to keep it open regardless and as the government hasn't given clear instructions that is what is happening.
This highlights the problem,the PM constantly repeated that employers should shut up shop,however legally the government doesn't have the powers to enforce their instructions yet,now if and when the emergency measures pass into law this could change,but just now they're relying on companies behaving morally,and history tells us that not all of them will.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by dsr » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:57 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:10 am
The points being made by the Federation was partly because of the lack of consultation with the police and clarity about what they actually can and can’t do (on the spot fines etc were not clear at all in the initial announcement). Then the other big area is how this will be resourced - they cannot cope with what they have to do now so how do they take on what is potentially a huge piece of new work.
Think about it logistically if they are being asked to patrol public places to break up gatherings or stop and deal with this every time they see one - issue a fine at some point etc. Is that more of a priority than going out to a domestic violence response or arresting someone for a drug or alcohol offence ? (by far the biggest things they get called out for every day). If the government think that it is a higher priority then they should tell the police that and temporarily stop responding to some crimes - but the government won’t do that because they know their would be a public outcry so they give the problem to the Police to decide - does that sound fair ?
Of course it sounds fair. If you give the police an impossible job to do fully, then somebody has to decide how the police will do the best they can at it. Who is most qualified to arrange police operations as best they can - the police, or the politicians?

If you want the politicians to work out the operational details of how they will do the job, then what about the NHS? So far as I am aware, it's the medical professionals who are having to make their decisions on how best to do as much of the impossible as they can. Is that wrong? Should the government be making all these decisions?

I think rather than a blanket ban on, say, arrests for drug crimes, it would be better for the police to continue making pragmatic decisions as they do now on who to arrest and who to metaphorically kick in the backside and who to turn a blind eye to. It's not as if the police treat all crimes equally and investigate everything, as it is now.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:29 pm

And the idiot Ringo has managed to screw up yet another thread with his silliness - assuming he's reached rock bottom.
Surely, another ban must be looming. ;)

Please, cut out the crap and let serious discussion continue.
Last edited by evensteadiereddie on Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by TVC15 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:31 pm

dsr wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:57 pm
Of course it sounds fair. If you give the police an impossible job to do fully, then somebody has to decide how the police will do the best they can at it. Who is most qualified to arrange police operations as best they can - the police, or the politicians?

If you want the politicians to work out the operational details of how they will do the job, then what about the NHS? So far as I am aware, it's the medical professionals who are having to make their decisions on how best to do as much of the impossible as they can. Is that wrong? Should the government be making all these decisions?

I think rather than a blanket ban on, say, arrests for drug crimes, it would be better for the police to continue making pragmatic decisions as they do now on who to arrest and who to metaphorically kick in the backside and who to turn a blind eye to. It's not as if the police treat all crimes equally and investigate everything, as it is now.
I’m not expecting the government to organise operationally how the police work - of course. And neither are the Police Federation either - but why do you think they have raised their concerns ?
What I do know that is that dispersing gatherings will be the lowest priority for the police - they will only do it when they have got nothing else to do....which is rare. They will drive right past gatherings if they are going to another call out.
How do I know that ? Cos they have told me in the last couple of days since this came in.

So the policy of the police dispersing gatherings is not going to work - which is a big issue if people do not head the warnings.

And it fundamentally all comes down to a lack of resources that has gone way beyond trying to juggle a few plates. The police federation are not raising these issues to try and be obstructive - and they are far closer to the ground as to what is happening day to day than any politician.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:37 pm

Apparently, police are checking motorists' destinations in Devon (easier than typing Combeinteignhead :lol: ) but only when the traffic lights their police car is near turn to red.
Nowt else to do and/or getting in practice for the real thing ?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Caballo » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:53 pm

Visible presence? Seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do to me.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:24 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:31 pm
I’m not expecting the government to organise operationally how the police work - of course. And neither are the Police Federation either - but why do you think they have raised their concerns ?
What I do know that is that dispersing gatherings will be the lowest priority for the police - they will only do it when they have got nothing else to do....which is rare. They will drive right past gatherings if they are going to another call out.
How do I know that ? Cos they have told me in the last couple of days since this came in.

So the policy of the police dispersing gatherings is not going to work - which is a big issue if people do not head the warnings.

And it fundamentally all comes down to a lack of resources that has gone way beyond trying to juggle a few plates. The police federation are not raising these issues to try and be obstructive - and they are far closer to the ground as to what is happening day to day than any politician.
Lancashire Constabularly is increasing its activity to enforce the measures and I'm certain other constabularies will do the same.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:39 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:05 pm
Point being, it's all good & well asking difficult questions but it's also helpful if you are also prepared to answer the same questions yourself, the question you asked was turned back onto yourself without a forthcoming answer, but you expected somebody to answer a question you couldn't answer yourself, I could & I did.
I set out my thoughts yesterday at 3:48pm and 11:19pm in a fair bit of detail. My questions were related to criticisms of the thoughts in these posts.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:46 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:39 pm
I set out my thoughts yesterday at 3:48pm and 11:19pm in a fair bit of detail. My questions were related to criticisms of the thoughts in these posts.
Yes I realise that, but in changing situations opinions & thoughts change, it’s no good thinking in the past when things have moved on, it’s here & now we are talking about, that still doesn’t answer the current question dealing with today & past that?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:49 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:18 am
Herd immunity isn’t a way stop to full lockdown. It’s an alternative approach. The government chose this over full lockdown originally, and then switched more toward a full lockdown - without going as far as a full lockdown. There were still a lot of people on the tube this morning - and that’s because the governments definition of key worker is very wide. Why are construction workers considered key workers? Did medical experts make that call? :)

The switch from herd immunity to fuller lockdown represents a mistake was made in initially going for herd immunity. As you say the inquiry will bring that decision to light. In my opinion not going for a bigger lockdown will be seen as a mistake, and again the inquiry will bring that to light. All of it will be weighed against the death toll, and the ultimate responsibility sits with Johnson.
I dont know whether you just don't understand the rationale behind herd immunity, or just choosing to ignore it.
We could have gone into lockdown 2 weeks after China had its first cases. Very few would get infected, and possibly no one dies. The problem with that option, even though safer, is we would have to lock down for years. As soon as we lifted the lockdown coronavirus would still have hit us, because although the rest of the world would now be immune to it, WE wouldn't.
We NEED people to contract this and recover, so that WE become immune ourselves. It has to be done in such a way that the NHS can cope, because if it is allowed to go on (herd immunity) for too long the NHS would be swamped.
We're still waiting to see if the timing was right but whether it is or isn't, the rationale behind it was.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:48 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:49 pm
I dont know whether you just don't understand the rationale behind herd immunity, or just choosing to ignore it.
We could have gone into lockdown 2 weeks after China had its first cases. Very few would get infected, and possibly no one dies. The problem with that option, even though safer, is we would have to lock down for years. As soon as we lifted the lockdown coronavirus would still have hit us, because although the rest of the world would now be immune to it, WE wouldn't.
We NEED people to contract this and recover, so that WE become immune ourselves. It has to be done in such a way that the NHS can cope, because if it is allowed to go on (herd immunity) for too long the NHS would be swamped.
We're still waiting to see if the timing was right but whether it is or isn't, the rationale behind it was.
Not for the first time, you're grasping at extremes to make the government's actions seem reasonable. Read this article for a better understanding of how we could deal with this better: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... c-cummings

The most successful country so far has been South Korea, which has flattened the curve without restricting freedom unduly. They've done this by testing widely, and being firmly on top of the reality of how many people have the virus, where they are, and they also have the medical facilities and equipment to look after those who've caught it. We haven't been able to follow this path, because we haven't been able to test even nearly as much, and don't have the equipment or facilities (and those things themselves are scandals).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... s-outbreak

So we really had no choice but to lock down, and even that hasn't been done to the degree it should. The fact tube trains are crowded is testimony to that. It's all been too little, and too late.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:59 pm

I think someone posted the question of "Is the cure worse than the disease?" something I'd paraphrase as "why do I have to suspend my business and income just because other people might die?". It's not that Mike Ashley has to get on a crowded tube train in order to go to work, and likely that if it involved his own personal risk he might have a different opinion.

This article from yesterday skewers that argument: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... and-health

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by tiger76 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:06 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:48 pm
Not for the first time, you're grasping at extremes to make the government's actions seem reasonable. Read this article for a better understanding of how we could deal with this better: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... c-cummings

The most successful country so far has been South Korea, which has flattened the curve without restricting freedom unduly. They've done this by testing widely, and being firmly on top of the reality of how many people have the virus, where they are, and they also have the medical facilities and equipment to look after those who've caught it. We haven't been able to follow this path, because we haven't been able to test even nearly as much, and don't have the equipment or facilities (and those things themselves are scandals).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... s-outbreak

So we really had no choice but to lock down, and even that hasn't been done to the degree it should. The fact tube trains are crowded is testimony to that. It's all been too little, and too late.
Funny lock down when thousands are still commuting to work,yes lots of those will be essential staff,but many will not,this is what happens when the government sends mixed messages,you can blame the employers to some extent,but ultimately the buck lies with those in charge to make the tough calls,that's what they're elected for after all.

The problem isn't confined to London either,https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/n ... s-crisis/

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Colburn_Claret » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:57 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:48 pm
Not for the first time, you're grasping at extremes to make the government's actions seem reasonable. Read this article for a better understanding of how we could deal with this better: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... c-cummings

The most successful country so far has been South Korea, which has flattened the curve without restricting freedom unduly. They've done this by testing widely, and being firmly on top of the reality of how many people have the virus, where they are, and they also have the medical facilities and equipment to look after those who've caught it. We haven't been able to follow this path, because we haven't been able to test even nearly as much, and don't have the equipment or facilities (and those things themselves are scandals).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... s-outbreak

So we really had no choice but to lock down, and even that hasn't been done to the degree it should. The fact tube trains are crowded is testimony to that. It's all been too little, and too late.
I'm not grasping at anything. I'm pointing out what the government said at the very beginning. The rationale behind it still stands good, although we don't know yet how successful, or not, it will be.
The problem with testing everybody is there aren't enough kits anyway. If you did take a test it only tells you if you have the virus today, it doesn't stop you going out and catching it 2 days later, 2 weeks later, or 2 months later. Therefore the testing would have to be continuous, that is simply unrealistic.
The people on the front line who come into contact with this on a daily basis, are the only ones that need to take regular checks, the rest of us should just carry out social distancing, and self isolate if you have any of the symptoms.
It goes back to the herd immunity. If we want the country to recover from this, then the more people who have had this virus, and recovered, the better. It doesn't matter if they've been tested, because for the vast majority of people it's nothing. It's no danger to them, but they are a danger to others. Follow the government guidelines and it will be contained, ignore them and anything could happen.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:33 pm

I haven't said "testing everybody", and that's not what South Korea did anyway. If we want to learn lessons from this, because we're far from being world leaders in the way we've responded, then we have to look at places that have been successful. Because South Korea stayed so on top of this (by testing a lot more than we did, and identifying people carrying it, and then testing the people they came into contact with, etc) and have now flattened the curve, they are our best example to follow.

As the links I posted say, we've had failure of policy, and failure of our modelling.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:06 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:33 pm
I haven't said "testing everybody", and that's not what South Korea did anyway. If we want to learn lessons from this, because we're far from being world leaders in the way we've responded, then we have to look at places that have been successful. Because South Korea stayed so on top of this (by testing a lot more than we did, and identifying people carrying it, and then testing the people they came into contact with, etc) and have now flattened the curve, they are our best example to follow.

As the links I posted say, we've had failure of policy, and failure of our modelling.
I'll listen to the views of the deputy chief medical officer who has just very articulately explained the approach to testing in the UK including:

"The clue regarding WHO is in its title"

"Its addressing all countries across the word with entirely different health infrastructures particularly public health"

"We have an extremely well developed public health system"

"The point is the WHO is addressing every country"

"When you come to the UK we have made it very, very clear that there has been a plan right the way through this which is entirely consistent with the science and epidemiology"

"There comes a point in a pandemic when that (testing) is not an appropriate intervention and that is the point where we moved into delay"

"At that point we need to focus on the clinical management"

"We need to focus where it would be clinically most valuable"
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by randomclaret2 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:09 pm

Come off it taio, the critics on uptheclarets know better than some deputy chief medical officer..
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:27 pm

taio wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:06 pm
I'll listen to the views of the deputy chief medical officer who has just very articulately explained the approach to testing in the UK including:

"The clue regarding WHO is in its title"

"Its addressing all countries across the word with entirely different health infrastructures particularly public health"

"We have an extremely well developed public health system"

"The point is the WHO is addressing every country"

"When you come to the UK we have made it very, very clear that there has been a plan right the way through this which is entirely consistent with the science and epidemiology"

"There comes a point in a pandemic when that (testing) is not an appropriate intervention and that is the point where we moved into delay"

"At that point we need to focus on the clinical management"

"We need to focus where it would be clinically most valuable"
And what she didn’t say: “We don’t have enough testing kits to test to the same degree as has been suggested” She also didn’t complain about the lack of protective and other equipment, but this is true as well.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by randomclaret2 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:31 pm

She is doing a hell of a job under astonishingly difficult circumstances.

taio
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:39 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:27 pm
And what she didn’t say: “We don’t have enough testing kits to test to the same degree as has been suggested” She also didn’t complain about the lack of protective and other equipment, but this is true as well.
Why would should she say that when she is clear the plan has been followed that is entirely consistent with science and epidemiology taking account of the specific conditions in the UK.

On your PPE point, this is a very important matter but at the same time I can appreciate delivering tens of millions of PPE items to tens of thousands of organsiations is a colossal challenge which is stretching even the very best e.g. NHS supply chains and logistics planning from the army.

The reality is that the country is having to plan and implement decisions in days or even hours when just one aspect alone would normally take months.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:42 pm

I'm assuming Boris, or some other tory, failed to autograph something for AndrewJB, or ignored him, when he was younger?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:58 pm

Got to be honest here, I know I like Boris (less so the Tories in general) and I think he is right not to have us totally locked down. Just enough to keep us within NHS capacity.

But......

I think this crisis will finish him, finish the Tories, and finish Brexit. Just an instinct.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:00 pm

taio wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:39 pm
Why would should she say that when she is clear the plan has been followed that is entirely consistent with science and epidemiology taking account of the specific conditions in the UK.

On your PPE point, this is a very important matter but at the same time I can appreciate delivering tens of millions of PPE items to tens of thousands of organsiations is a colossal challenge which is stretching even the very best e.g. NHS supply chains and logistics planning from the army.

The reality is that the country is having to plan and implement decisions in days or even hours when just one aspect alone would normally take months.
We don’t have enough testing kits for anything other than a limited testing regime. And this is us being serious about the ventilators: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ilator-row

Not exactly inspiring confidence.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:02 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:42 pm
I'm assuming Boris, or some other tory, failed to autograph something for AndrewJB, or ignored him, when he was younger?
It was when they took my milk.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:04 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:00 pm
We don’t have enough testing kits for anything other than a limited testing regime. And this is us being serious about the ventilators: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ilator-row

Not exactly inspiring confidence.
As the deputy medical officer confirmed we tested significantly in the contain stage and in the delay stage have focused on clinical management which means testing will increase going forward. In terms of ventilators let's see in time if the UK run shorts.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:07 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:58 pm
Got to be honest here, I know I like Boris (less so the Tories in general) and I think he is right not to have us totally locked down. Just enough to keep us within NHS capacity.

But......

I think this crisis will finish him, finish the Tories, and finish Brexit. Just an instinct.
Oh, I’ll just add - despite me thinking he is doing a great job on the whole. Saw an Imperial report tonight forecasting 5000 deaths versus loads more in France, USA, Italy, Spain. That would be a huge win in the circumstances, like winning a war but losing lives along the way.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:08 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:00 pm
We don’t have enough testing kits for anything other than a limited testing regime. And this is us being serious about the ventilators: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ilator-row

Not exactly inspiring confidence.
Not sure if you're aware, but other news outlets are available, not everything you link needs to be from the lefty leaning, anti tory, Pro-EU Guardian..

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by tiger76 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:22 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:08 pm
Not sure if you're aware, but other news outlets are available, not everything you link needs to be from the lefty leaning, anti tory, Pro-EU Guardian..
Yep but he's a metropolitan London dweller,criticism of the government is perfectly valid,and they have made mistakes during this crisis,but whatever they do Andrew will find fault somewhere.There's no middle ground for him or Ringo unfortunately.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:37 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:08 pm
Not sure if you're aware, but other news outlets are available, not everything you link needs to be from the lefty leaning, anti tory, Pro-EU Guardian..
I find this Guardian report interesting and useful - it fills a gap in my knowledge.

When Andrew doesn't post a Guardian link I sometimes find myself googling specifically guardian articles. Of course, I also use other sources for my news and information gathering.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by dsr » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:27 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:02 pm
It was when they took my milk.
Edward Short, Labour, 1968, took your milk. If that's all it was, then perhaps you need to change your policies.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by martin_p » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:02 pm

dsr wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:27 pm
Edward Short, Labour, 1968, took your milk. If that's all it was, then perhaps you need to change your policies.
Not if you were in primary school at the time.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:02 pm

Bernie Sanders praises the UK government's approach to looking after workers-

"The senator also went on to praise the U.K's stimulus approach. "The approach that they are taking which makes sense to me is to basically say to employers, if you keep your workers on the job, even if they're not working right now, we will pay in the U.K. case 80 percent of their salary.

"I think that is the direction we should have gone. "


https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders ... us-1494372

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:18 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:08 pm
Not sure if you're aware, but other news outlets are available, not everything you link needs to be from the lefty leaning, anti tory, Pro-EU Guardian..
I link the Guardian more because it has no paywall. The standard of journalism is fairly high - you're not going to get made up stories, unless they're carrying one that's been made up elsewhere and is generally being reported as fact. They weren't hauled over the Leveson coals as much as other papers, and although opinion pieces can be quite savage on the government, they don't hold back on other parties either (in fact they were all over the last Labour government on a lot of issues). The news itself is reported more factually and without the deeply ingrained bias you get in many other papers. Over the last few years I'd say their news reporting has been better than the BBC, who too often have just reported something a minister has said without even seeming to give it the most cursory of checks. They also actually do investigative journalism, which you just don't see in a lot of UK papers anymore (depending on how you define "investigative"). Which other news outlets would you recommend?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:50 pm

Did you just state the Guardian is less biased than other papers?
I think you're wrong there, every paper has a bias, especially the Guardian and Mail.
They're also good at twisting things to suit their political agenda, just like the right leaning Mail

As for paywall, a number of papers are free online, but it all depends on which way you lean as to which you'll use.

As for recommendations, I don't have a preferred source for my news, I just sift through various ones.
I'll watch an interview live and then amusingly see what slant the papers put on it, similar to what happens on here.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by aggi » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:19 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:08 pm
Not sure if you're aware, but other news outlets are available, not everything you link needs to be from the lefty leaning, anti tory, Pro-EU Guardian..
Once you knock out the paywalled Times, Telegraph and FT you're not left with a great deal beyond the Guardian and BBC.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:25 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:50 pm
Did you just state the Guardian is less biased than other papers?
I think you're wrong there, every paper has a bias, especially the Guardian and Mail.
They're also good at twisting things to suit their political agenda, just like the right leaning Mail

As for paywall, a number of papers are free online, but it all depends on which way you lean as to which you'll use.

As for recommendations, I don't have a preferred source for my news, I just sift through various ones.
I'll watch an interview live and then amusingly see what slant the papers put on it, similar to what happens on here.
The Guardian's opinion pieces carry bias, but their news reporting has very little, and is more fact based. As an example, here's the same link I posted earlier about the ventilators, which has now been updated to include a statement by the PM's spokesperson: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ilator-row

Nowhere in that article is negative language used about the government (think terms like hapless, or muddled, etc), the update giving more of the government's voice was added (they could have just left it out). The story itself isn't flattering for the government, but it's not reported in anything other than neutral language. The Telegraph and Times also run the story, as do the BBC (who describe it as a "mix-up" - which is quite charitable). The Daily Mail, Sun, and Express don't appear to be running the story at all, so not informing the public. Happy to consider other news stories for comparison, but I can't see how the Guardian is anything remotely as biased as the Daily Mail. Not even close.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:43 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:34 am
If you think that then you don't understand this thread. This isn't a balanced view, it's a snipe at Boris view.
Whatever he does, whatever he says he's wrong. If he's right it's only because the Labour Party forced him into that position.

It's a very difficult situation, and there is very little right or wrong because we are walking uncharted territory. It's right to point out fault if there is one, but there is a tiny minority on here, led by Andrew, who don't want any reasoned debate, they just want to have a whinge, point the finger and come up with wild allegations.
The proof of the pudding is Boris's popularity in the polls, and I know many who didn't vote for him who think he has done a good job through this crisis. The better he does, the louder they'll moan. You are right it shouldn't be about backslapping, I-told-you-so, or any other form of one-upmanship, but it shouldn't be about perpetual bias either.
I say this not just because it suits my agenda, but because I think it's a genuine possibility:

- Coronacrisis hasn't really hit yet. Boris announces increasingly stringent measures, gives very solemn press conferences etc. Most people think, 'He's got a handle on this'. Boris high in the opinion polls.
- Crisis hits, people dying, videos/pictures on social media of NHS units overwhelmed. More and more coverage/people listening to critical accounts: 'They didn't act quick enough', 'They gutted the NHS through a decade of austerity'. Boris low in the polls.

The assumption is that there is no middle ground between 'Boris and Cummings wanted to kill the elderly to reduce social costs until they were found out' and 'The government's handling of this pandemic has been without reproach'. Regardless of whether most people think the government has done well, and regardless of whether people loved or loathed Boris Johnson before, we can still say that 'there is evidence this approach worked better...' etc. Criticism is not just an important part of democracy, but necessary for its success: China can just command people. It's highly centralised, and there are no issues with simply compelling companies and individuals to do what's necessary. A democratic government functions differently. It has more issues to contend with. It might only act if there is pressure for it to act from other people/institutions. That's not a peculiar failing.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:13 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:28 am
According to the latest opinion polls and personal ratings, it's a minority one.
Come on Ringo.

- The minority opinion in a region is incorrect if most people think it is incorrect.

- In 1543, most people in Western Europe believed the earth was at the centre of the solar system.
- In 1543, Copernicus published his theory that the sun, not the earth, was in fact at the centre of the solar system.

The government is telling us very clearly that it is following the science in its response to the pandemic. Whether its response is correct then too becomes a scientific question.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:17 am

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:13 am
Come on Ringo.

- The minority opinion in a region is incorrect if most people think it is incorrect.

- In 1543, most people in Western Europe believed the earth was at the centre of the solar system.
- In 1543, Copernicus published his theory that the sun, not the earth, was in fact at the centre of the solar system.

The government is telling us very clearly that it is following the science in its response to the pandemic. Whether its response is correct then too becomes a scientific question.
And, I've got to add: the effusive praise heaped on the government by certain posters on this forum is not a good guide to the mood of the country, not just in places like East London, but in Burnley too.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Colburn_Claret » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:33 am

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:43 am
I say this not just because it suits my agenda, but because I think it's a genuine possibility:

- Coronacrisis hasn't really hit yet. Boris announces increasingly stringent measures, gives very solemn press conferences etc. Most people think, 'He's got a handle on this'. Boris high in the opinion polls.
- Crisis hits, people dying, videos/pictures on social media of NHS units overwhelmed. More and more coverage/people listening to critical accounts: 'They didn't act quick enough', 'They gutted the NHS through a decade of austerity'. Boris low in the polls.

The assumption is that there is no middle ground between 'Boris and Cummings wanted to kill the elderly to reduce social costs until they were found out' and 'The government's handling of this pandemic has been without reproach'. Regardless of whether most people think the government has done well, and regardless of whether people loved or loathed Boris Johnson before, we can still say that 'there is evidence this approach worked better...' etc. Criticism is not just an important part of democracy, but necessary for its success: China can just command people. It's highly centralised, and there are no issues with simply compelling companies and individuals to do what's necessary. A democratic government functions differently. It has more issues to contend with. It might only act if there is pressure for it to act from other people/institutions. That's not a peculiar failing.
I don't disagree with that, I'm sure there are things that could be done better, especially with hindsight. I have no problem with anyone saying Boris made a mistake there, or that could have been better. The problem is the minority of moaners on here, led by Andrew who find fault with everything he does, before during and after every decision. Everything Boris does today is wrong, everything he does tomorrow is wrong. That isn't justifiable criticism, it's just moaning for the sake of it, because they don't like Boris. That isn't a reasoned argument, it's just pathetic, and most posters/readers on here, just want a reasoned discussion.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by martin_p » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:49 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:33 am
I don't disagree with that, I'm sure there are things that could be done better, especially with hindsight. I have no problem with anyone saying Boris made a mistake there, or that could have been better. The problem is the minority of moaners on here, led by Andrew who find fault with everything he does, before during and after every decision. Everything Boris does today is wrong, everything he does tomorrow is wrong. That isn't justifiable criticism, it's just moaning for the sake of it, because they don't like Boris. That isn't a reasoned argument, it's just pathetic, and most posters/readers on here, just want a reasoned discussion.
Has Andrew said the 80% furloughing is wrong?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:44 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:33 am
I don't disagree with that, I'm sure there are things that could be done better, especially with hindsight. I have no problem with anyone saying Boris made a mistake there, or that could have been better. The problem is the minority of moaners on here, led by Andrew who find fault with everything he does, before during and after every decision. Everything Boris does today is wrong, everything he does tomorrow is wrong. That isn't justifiable criticism, it's just moaning for the sake of it, because they don't like Boris. That isn't a reasoned argument, it's just pathetic, and most posters/readers on here, just want a reasoned discussion.
I criticise specific things. The direction of herd immunity without a vaccine, for example, was a mistake, since acknowledged by the government U-turn. I find there are a lot of people unable to see this and other basic facts for themselves, and it’s difficult having a reasoned debate if something as obvious as the sky being blue is questioned all the time. I watched Question Time last night, and the medical panelist was far more scathing of the government than I have been. He said the government had a whole month’s notice that testing kits need to be prepared and PPE kit distributed. He said the Germans are testing half a million people per week, and we haven’t tested a hundred thousand in total. Considering we came up with the test first, that’s a remarkable lot of ground lost. As for protective gear, it’s still not been distributed. He described it as a scandal.

That’s me quoting the editor of the Lancet. Not “sniping with boring predictability” or “exhibiting the usual far left Boris bashing claptrap”.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by ElectroClaret » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:19 am

Boris Johnson tests positive for Coronavirus.
(Sky news)

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by ClaretAndJew » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:20 am

Shaking hands with Covid-19 patients.

He should have just washed his hands.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:25 am

ElectroClaret wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:19 am
Boris Johnson tests positive for Coronavirus.
(Sky news)
There will be some celebrating this

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by evensteadiereddie » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:27 am

You think ?
I think your silly comment shows more about you than your enemies on here, claret.
Last edited by evensteadiereddie on Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Sutton-Claret » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:27 am

That's pretty serious news - especially with the number of people he's been in contact with over the last couple of weeks

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:29 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:27 am
You think ?
I think your silly comment shows more about you than your enemies on here, Claret.

I didn't limit it to just on here. Give it an hour or 2

If you have a doubt search Boris Johnson on twitter @mike_jones96 @Syndo14 @starslut

took a while didn't it

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:33 am

Always likely to get it with the amount of people he’ll have to liaise with each day.
Hopefully they’ll continue to be mild symptoms.

Locked