Boris Watch

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Damo
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Damo » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:13 pm

Imagine arguing with people then asking the mods to ban people for arguing.
Just ignore posters you dislike
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by evensteadiereddie » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:15 pm

You'll need to read CT's post to see what the problem is/was. I don't think it's the differences in opinion that are the problem, more the incessant need to score a point, irrespective of its relevance to the topic being discussed, far too many threads have been hijacked and ruined. Its hard to ignore posters who seem to take pleasure in disrupting the discussion of vital issues.
If the answer is to split the board into football and other sections, so be it. Everybody wins.
Last edited by evensteadiereddie on Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:21 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:57 pm
Yep, if the general public are not happy with that, I honestly don’t know what more they want.

Think the questioning by the media at these daily events is embarrassing. The lady (forget her name, sorry) is absolutely bossing it and completely showing them up.
Beth Rigby? Shes pretty good. Some of the questioning have come from journalists that are clearly partisan. They clearly fail to be aware that who ever was PM, this virus would have handed them a poison chalice.

An unenviable task of balancing, the natural humanitarian urge to preserve as many lives as is possible. And, trying to ensure that when, God willing, we come out of this horrendous situation. Theres actually a viable economy left to come out to.

The enormity of the task , whoever had to do it. Cannot be overestimated.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Damo » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:24 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:15 pm
You'll need to read CT's post to see what the problem is/was. I don't think it's the differences in opinion that are the problem, more the incessant need to score a point, irrespective of its relevance to the topic being discussed, far too many threads have been hijacked and ruined. Its hard to ignore posters who seem to take pleasure in disrupting the discussion of vital issues.
If the answer is to split the board into football and other sections, so be it. Everybody wins.
"I've better things to do with my time than constantly get sent to this thread because of complaints"

Either ignore him or report him Eddie. You are old enough to do either. Dont do both. Stop egging him on if he winds you up so much
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by evensteadiereddie » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:28 pm

I have. He doesn't.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by NewClaret » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:54 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:21 pm
Beth Rigby? Shes pretty good. Some of the questioning have come from journalists that are clearly partisan. They clearly fail to be aware that who ever was PM, this virus would have handed them a poison chalice.

An unenviable task of balancing, the natural humanitarian urge to preserve as many lives as is possible. And, trying to ensure that when, God willing, we come out of this horrendous situation. Theres actually a viable economy left to come out to.

The enormity of the task , whoever had to do it. Cannot be overestimated.
Not sure it’s partisan, just completely idiotic. Some of them show themselves up so much it’s embarrassing.

Agree - it’s been an extraordinary balancing act and one I think he’s walked brilliantly.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:02 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:54 pm
Not sure it’s partisan, just completely idiotic. Some of them show themselves up so much it’s embarrassing.

Agree - it’s been an extraordinary balancing act and one I think he’s walked brilliantly.
Rishi Sunak and an army of civil servants will be putting a right old shift in. So fair play to them as well.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:17 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:18 pm
Oooh I say he’s getting all angry again!! A couple more posts and I reckon he will be spewing his racist bile again!! Then surely another ban!!

That post deserves an extra big Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr :lol:
...then up pops Elizabeth again.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by NewClaret » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:18 pm

Agreed. DWP, HMRC, the lot of them. Massive respect.

This week has been my busiest I can remember (sorting through all this), but imagine they are pulling some all-nighters, for which the nation should be very grateful.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Elizabeth » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:23 pm

Like the editor says, stop acting like kids
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:26 pm

Manufacturers of medical equipment passed over by Government in favour of consortia, without experience...who are yet to produce anything.

Hospitals and other key personnel like care workers, remain without personal protection equipment.

Ventilators woefully lacking.

UK missed the bulk order set up by EU at best rates and fastest delivery.

Very few people tested, owing to hardly any testing kits.

PM Johnson and his cronies are inadequate and favouring their buddies.

*Also

Holiday companies and airlines keeping everybody's money. Self employed getting shafted not to mention the single most important fact...

The guy tasked with protecting us from it has actually got it himself because he didn't put the country into lockdown fast enough.

Worst prime minister in history.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:31 pm

Damo wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:13 pm
Imagine arguing with people then asking the mods to ban people for arguing.
Just ignore posters you dislike
That'd be too easy, some people are just hellbent on drama.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:35 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:18 pm
Agreed. DWP, HMRC, the lot of them. Massive respect.

This week has been my busiest I can remember (sorting through all this), but imagine they are pulling some all-nighters, for which the nation should be very grateful.
A guy on the radio, yesterday, I forget his status, think he was a former top brass in the civil service. Explained that to get from legislation, to law, to actual implementation of the new rules on salaries. Would usually take, the cumbersome machine of , government and public sector to prepare and get upto speed, years. Not weeks. Now, when you consider the very same people are also spinning a whole bunch of plates , like creating hospitals out of thin air, while many of them will be dropping like flies. It really is a grand job they're doing. Nowt but praise from me.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by ecc » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:36 pm

Just been listening to the 24/7 News radio station that is run by the French state.

The guests on there said two or three things about BJ and the UK:

i) Disbelief - there was disbelief over here when we saw the pictures of Johnson shaking hands with all and sundry in a hospital - but now not surprised he's been tested positive. I must add that there was no "sniping". Nobody "normal" wants to see anybody ill or hurt.

ii) Genuine concern that the NHS could collapse if and when - they felt it was a question of "when" - Covid-19 really unleashes itself in the UK. Apparently, the NHS doesn't have anywhere near enough of the necessary equipment to cope with this virus.

I fear this. It's gone past politics. The government can act today -if it hasn't done so already -and try to source the equipment from abroad (just found this link). But it won't be able to cope next week or the week after. I just hope they are wrong in thinking that the virus will spread as it has done in Italy, Spain and France.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... tory-cases
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:39 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:54 pm
Not sure it’s partisan, just completely idiotic. Some of them show themselves up so much it’s embarrassing.

Agree - it’s been an extraordinary balancing act and one I think he’s walked brilliantly.
17,230 beds have been cut from the 144,455 that existed in April-June 2010, the period when the coalition Conservative/Liberal Democrat government took office and imposed a nine-year funding squeeze on the NHS.

The 127,225 figure is the smallest number of beds available in acute hospitals, maternity centres and units specialising in the care of patients with mental health problems and learning disabilities since records began in 1987/88.

More than 10,000 EU nationals have left the NHS since the Brexit referendum, including almost 5,000 nurses.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:40 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-52043767

Coronavirus: Government orders 10,000 ventilators from Dyson

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:44 pm

ecc wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:36 pm
Just been listening to the 24/7 News radio station that is run by the French state.

The guests on there said two or three things about BJ and the UK:

i) Disbelief - there was disbelief over here when we saw the pictures of Johnson shaking hands with all and sundry in a hospital - but now not surprised he's been tested positive. I must add that there was no "sniping". Nobody "normal" wants to see anybody ill or hurt.

ii) Genuine concern that the NHS could collapse if and when - they felt it was a question of "when" - Covid-19 really unleashes itself in the UK. Apparently, the NHS doesn't have anywhere near enough of the necessary equipment to cope with this virus.

I fear this. It's gone past politics. The government can act today -if it hasn't done so already -and try to source the equipment from abroad (just found this link). But it won't be able to cope next week or the week after. I just hope they are wrong in thinking that the virus will spread as it has done in Italy, Spain and France.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... tory-cases
Don't forget the inconsistent and confusing messages and the fact that the delay has cost lives.

I think my favourite part about this so-called brilliant leader was when he told everybody to (maybe) stay out of the pub and his own dad then went on telly to contradict him.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:44 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:39 pm
17,230 beds have been cut from the 144,455 that existed in April-June 2010, the period when the coalition Conservative/Liberal Democrat government took office and imposed a nine-year funding squeeze on the NHS.

The 127,225 figure is the smallest number of beds available in acute hospitals, maternity centres and units specialising in the care of patients with mental health problems and learning disabilities since records began in 1987/88.

More than 10,000 EU nationals have left the NHS since the Brexit referendum, including almost 5,000 nurses.
The number of acute beds has been in decline for decades because medical advancements mean people typically have much reduced length of stay and many more clinical interventions occur in primary and community care.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:45 pm

From Fullfact -


Claim

The number of hospital beds fell by 25,000 in the last six years of the last Labour government.

Conclusion

Correct, the number of overnight beds in the English NHS actually fell by slightly more—about 26,000—between 2003/04 and 2009/10.

https://fullfact.org/health/number-hosp ... s-falling/

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by NewClaret » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:25 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:39 pm
17,230 beds have been cut from the 144,455 that existed in April-June 2010, the period when the coalition Conservative/Liberal Democrat government took office and imposed a nine-year funding squeeze on the NHS.

The 127,225 figure is the smallest number of beds available in acute hospitals, maternity centres and units specialising in the care of patients with mental health problems and learning disabilities since records began in 1987/88.

More than 10,000 EU nationals have left the NHS since the Brexit referendum, including almost 5,000 nurses.
Don’t doubt it. Number of beds in ordinary circumstances is not an issue for me. In that time my family have had numerous calls on the NHS hospitals (at least 10 times) - never had an issue getting a bed. Nor have I ever heard of anyone not having access to an NHS bed when they need it.

We need more now in extraordinary circumstances and are building them quickly. Good job.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by NewClaret » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:27 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:44 pm
Don't forget the inconsistent and confusing messages and the fact that the delay has cost lives.

I think my favourite part about this so-called brilliant leader was when he told everybody to (maybe) stay out of the pub and his own dad then went on telly to contradict him.
Think his brother, sister and Dad have all been complete idiots in all this. If I were him I’d never speak to any of them again.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:37 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:27 pm
Think his brother, sister and Dad have all been complete idiots in all this. If I were him I’d never speak to any of them again.
Yeah, don't forget three men leading the UK’s response to the pandemic – Johnson, Hancock and Whitty – must now do so from quarantine because they've contracted it themselves by not taking it seriously enough.

Inspiring.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by dsr » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:39 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:00 pm
I've just got this via WhatsApp. No idea of the original source but if there's any substance to it, surely it would have formed part of today's briefing.

"This is a text from an NHS worker:

As of tomorrow, do not leave home for bread for anything! Because the worst begins tomorrow as the incubation date is met and many people that are positive with the virus start to peak!! It’s at this time other people are most vulnerable! so it is very important to stay home and not to be in contact with anybody, even members of your family if possible!! Being very careful is very important and very crucial at this time!!

As from tomorrow we are going to see the start of the peak of those that are positive, then there will be two weeks of calm and then two weeks where it decreases.

* What happened in Italy is that they neglected the contagion period and that is why all the cases turned out together and so badly, plus they didn’t know what they were dealing with *.

* And finally, please do not receive visits from anyone, not even from the same family. This is all for the good of all. *

WE WILL BE IN THE MAXIMUM STAGE OF INFECTION.

* DO NOT HOLD ON TO THIS MESSAGE, PASS IT ON TO ALL YOUR CONTACTS *"
Any post that says "as of tomorrow" without giving a date is a post designed to cause panic, by someone who thinks it's fun to encourage the panic to go on as long as possible. Anyone in the know would put a date on it so we knew when we had to panic.

If the worst is in fact tomorrow, then it will be only slightly worse than today or Sunday. You aren't talking about 10% chance Friday, 80% Saturday, 10% Sunday. You're talking about perhaps 10-11-10 - the worst day (there must be one) is only very slightly different from the next worst.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by dsr » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:49 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:39 pm
17,230 beds have been cut from the 144,455 that existed in April-June 2010, the period when the coalition Conservative/Liberal Democrat government took office and imposed a nine-year funding squeeze on the NHS.

The 127,225 figure is the smallest number of beds available in acute hospitals, maternity centres and units specialising in the care of patients with mental health problems and learning disabilities since records began in 1987/88.

More than 10,000 EU nationals have left the NHS since the Brexit referendum, including almost 5,000 nurses.
Records began a lot earlier than 1987. You're saying that the NHS didn't know how many beds it had between 1948 and 1987? I doubt that.

In 1948, incidentally, it had 480,000 beds. Every government since then has cut the numbers, at an average of 5,000 per year. 17,000 in 10 years is quite a bit below the average, FWIW.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by NewClaret » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:32 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:37 pm
Yeah, don't forget three men leading the UK’s response to the pandemic – Johnson, Hancock and Whitty – must now do so from quarantine because they've contracted it themselves by not taking it seriously enough.

Inspiring.
Or, have put their own health at risk to help lead the country though these very difficult times. Just like many of our NHS and key workers are doing every day.

Inspiring.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:47 pm

According to the Tories on here the initial mistake of going for herd immunity was all down to the experts - whose instructions Johnson was following. Now it appears he rolled up his sleeves and built some hospitals all by himself. If people begin dying in greater numbers I’m going to guess that will be the fault of the experts again.

All predictable and uncreative.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by taio » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:54 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:47 pm
According to the Tories on here the initial mistake of going for herd immunity was all down to the experts - whose instructions Johnson was following. Now it appears he rolled up his sleeves and built some hospitals all by himself. If people begin dying in greater numbers I’m going to guess that will be the fault of the experts again.

All predictable and uncreative.
But you're the same just the other way round. Mistakes you'll pin on Johnson. Successes you'll credit the experts. Same principle applies. As always there's a big space in between.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by atlantalad » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:15 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:37 pm
Yeah, don't forget three men leading the UK’s response to the pandemic – Johnson, Hancock and Whitty – must now do so from quarantine because they've contracted it themselves by not taking it seriously enough.

Inspiring.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:05 am
UK Citizens won't be able to afford to travel abroad after Brexit, thank god.


So, what's it like in Spain T-Rex?
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:35 am

atlantalad wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:15 am
Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:05 am
UK Citizens won't be able to afford to travel abroad after Brexit, thank god.


So, what's it like in Spain T-Rex?
It's hard to go beyond the personal because we don't leave our flat of course, I believe this may even be our third weekend.
As a writer I work from home anyway so there's no change there, my wife is also working from home and Vito, my little boy is doing schoolwork on his laptop and playing fortnite. He would literally play twenty-four hours a day, so would his mates which isn't a bad thing. We are exercising in the front room. We are lucky because we are still working, I think boredom would be more of an issue if we weren't, our flat isn't massive but it has a large balcony and we went on the roof yesterday which we'll start doing more of as this thing goes on.
Spanish Doctors and Nurses are working flat-out and loads of them getting infected, the Spanish health service is under incredible strain but the last two days has seen the rise in new infections go down slightly which is the only decent bit of good news I can find.
We went into lockdown quite quickly, maybe there was a delay of a day or two when we, the general population felt it should have been treated with more gravitas but then everything went into lockdown very quickly and efficiently.
The majority of the people seem to be observing it impeccably, Spanish people on the whole are very non-confrontational, in all the years I've lived here I've never seen an actual fight like a decent Burnley town centre ramsammy. If you punch somebody over here, outside of the tourist towns where the Police are a little more understanding you'd be arrested. So I would say the Spanish are naturally more law-abiding, observing the lockdown and social distancing from the start has been easier to implement here than in other places, I think. Again, I can only really go off what I see from my window.
We're all doing the going out and applauding at 8 and yeah, I think everybody is doing alright, we've a minimum of another two weeks to go.

The scariest thing for me is that the news is only coronavirus, I feel saturated and I don't really know what it is. Yesterday we went on the roof and I had a plastic bag on my hand to turn a key and open a few doorhandles. When we got in I gargled with antiseptic and washed my hands. I see everybody going to the shops with facemasks and respirators and I'm wearing a scarf but then I also don't know if my town and particularly the supermarket is infected, it seems that the chances are small but I'd feel safer with a mask and gloves, I wonder why the governments aren't posting these things out to people, one set per household, I know we'd all wear them.

The financial stimulus package is about the same as the UK but wages are lower here, I think you can be temporarily unemployed and the government pays 80% of your wages which gives the company the stimulus to the pay the other 20%. I'm pretty sure many smaller cafes and restaurants will go bust but that's very much a normal part of life here, many cafes change hands after only about six months, with some it goes on years.

The hardest thing is reading the news, we went into lockdown rapidly and efficiently in comparison to Italy, who, to be fair, were the first European country to get massively affected, so it was new to them, but every day there are more cases and more deaths. Considering we are at the end of the first lockdown period, which has now been extended, this is the scariest thing.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:16 am

In these difficult times you appreciate what you've got and the decisions you've made so far and I must say, I'm really happy I didn't marry a flat-chested lass.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:20 pm

taio wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:54 pm
But you're the same just the other way round. Mistakes you'll pin on Johnson. Successes you'll credit the experts. Same principle applies. As always there's a big space in between.
I think it's possible to see the line between political decisions, and those informed very much by science in this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... squandered
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by tiger76 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:05 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:42 pm
Whether you agree with my opinion or not.) I've voted for pretty much every party in my time.)

Whether its referendums, general elections, EU parliamentary elections or whatever. How I've voted has been how the majority of people in this country has voted.

That includes voting for Tony Blair! TWICE!!!!

So like it or not, I'm not the Ying, for Andrew JBs Yang. I'm not the far right extremist to balance his far left agenda. I hold a mainstream, majority view. A mainstream majority view, that doesn't feel the need to take to the street. Doesn't feel obliged to spew bile on Twitter.

No. It simply goes to the polling station and calmly puts an "X" in the appropriate box.
I actually do agree with your opinion most of the time,i also voted for Blair in his early years,the Iraq war was the moment i changed,and i haven't voted Labour since,i also voted for brexit,but that doesn't mean i favour crashing out with a no deal,and like the majority i voted Conservative in December,i never referred to you as far right BTW,and the irony is it's a Conservative government that's spending record amounts to ensure our economy recovers from the impact of covid-19,and yet despite these commitments many on the left such as Andrew JB can't find it in themselves to give the sitting government any credit during these tough times,let's get real would people rather have Corbyn,McDonnell,and Abbott in the cabinet,because i certainly wouldn't,that's not to say the government's immune to scrutiny,but on balance they're doing their best in extraordinary times,and anyone who thinks Labour would have handled this crisis in a better manner is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Like yourself I've never marched,and i don't use Twitter,i find the most effective way of making my voice heard is through the ballot box,and until the Labour Party wises up and realises they need to appeal to the centre ground,they'll remain in the political wilderness,maybe under a new leader they'll become more centrist,but i wouldn't guarantee it with Momentum still pulling the strings.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:16 pm

https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1241991593806217216

As a reminder, Steve Hilton (the man on the video) was David Cameron's director of strategy, so he'll have first hand knowledge of the decisions taken that led to these deaths. Here he is on Fox News, arguing that saving lives now will lead to too much debt, and more lives lost in the future.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by dsr » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:08 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:16 pm
https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1241991593806217216

As a reminder, Steve Hilton (the man on the video) was David Cameron's director of strategy, so he'll have first hand knowledge of the decisions taken that led to these deaths. Here he is on Fox News, arguing that saving lives now will lead to too much debt, and more lives lost in the future.
Leaving aside the accuracy or otherwise of his predictions; as a matter of principle, if by allowing people to die now you will be saving lives in the future, would you accept that as a good thing? Or would you still do all you could to save lives this year at the expense of other lives next year and beyond?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:22 pm

dsr wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:08 pm
Leaving aside the accuracy or otherwise of his predictions; as a matter of principle, if by allowing people to die now you will be saving lives in the future, would you accept that as a good thing? Or would you still do all you could to save lives this year at the expense of other lives next year and beyond?
Is this to do with climate change, or some sort of military analogy (thinking the Jervis Bay)? I'd have to understand the circumstances, but there are certainly situations in which people risk or give up their lives so that others can live.

I don't accept that our efforts to deal with this virus now will cause more deaths in the future though. This article by Jonathan Portes puts that one to bed better than I could: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... and-health

Another article on the subject here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ives-trump

I listened to an American Senator (or possibly state official?) say he'd put his life on the line in order to safeguard the US economy, and I wondered how he'd accomplish that. Expose himself to the virus, and then refuse all medical assistance? And how would that help the US economy?

What could be done in my opinion to save the economy is put it on pause. I've already set this idea out, but by putting non essential companies into a kind of suspended animation, they'd incur no costs and earn no money, and all the people working for it could go into self isolation without worrying about rent, mortgages, or major bills, and if the government then paid out a living allowance to everyone, then once the measures are no longer required, we can get back to work again. Also rather than looking at all these weeks as a net loss to the economy, with some local or national organisation it's more than possible to give people an opportunity to skill up, or skill out - learn more or different job skills - or just take up something that they enjoy. Online it's not hard to set up communities of similar interest, etc. This time in isolation should be seen as an opportunity.

Regarding the video I posted, so often the number of 130K additional deaths has been hotly disputed by people - many of whom insist the actual number is much less. I understand Hilton is using the figure to prove a point, but if one of the architects of recent austerity accepts a policy he had a hand in writing was responsible for people dying early, then I think it takes the ground away from those who insist austerity didn't kill.
Last edited by AndrewJB on Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:25 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:41 am

Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:41 am

This isn’t a party political issue.

Over a week of being hoist by his own petard

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:31 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:25 pm
Over a week of being hoist by his own petard
Quoting people out of context to attempt to prove a point is sad. It's a political thread about the shortcomings of our supposed PM, Johnson. The issue of the virus is not political - and if you'd quoted me fully it would have said; "I'd be complaining about any political party were they making as many mistakes as this government has" (or something like that). Great white - beached on the sand.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:39 pm

Had a quick skim but its hard to see the good posts for the arguing to be honest. A plea:

We’re all locked down during a worrying period, its really important to stay connected socially with people and share useful observations and advice (on whichever social media people choose to frequent). Some people need that. Others can steer clear.

There are three big threads relating to this outbreak - the taxation one, the political one, and the covid one. All with useful stuff, but at this time scoring points seems pointless (ironic though that may seem). We need to stick to useful contributions and who knows, one useful bit of advice spotted rather than not spotted may save a life or save somebodies finances.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:59 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:05 pm
I actually do agree with your opinion most of the time,i also voted for Blair in his early years,the Iraq war was the moment i changed,and i haven't voted Labour since,i also voted for brexit,but that doesn't mean i favour crashing out with a no deal,and like the majority i voted Conservative in December,i never referred to you as far right BTW,and the irony is it's a Conservative government that's spending record amounts to ensure our economy recovers from the impact of covid-19,and yet despite these commitments many on the left such as Andrew JB can't find it in themselves to give the sitting government any credit during these tough times, let's get real would people rather have Corbyn,McDonnell,and Abbott in the cabinet,because i certainly wouldn't,that's not to say the government's immune to scrutiny,but on balance they're doing their best in extraordinary times,and anyone who thinks Labour would have handled this crisis in a better manner is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Like yourself I've never marched,and i don't use Twitter,i find the most effective way of making my voice heard is through the ballot box,and until the Labour Party wises up and realises they need to appeal to the centre ground,they'll remain in the political wilderness,maybe under a new leader they'll become more centrist,but i wouldn't guarantee it with Momentum still pulling the strings.
Tiger76, the vast majority of people do exactly what we do. Ive spoke to relatives in various parts of the country today. They all do it too. Just quietly get on with their lives. Despite what the ludicrous, twisted noisy lefties think. They are not easily lead gullible sheep, who have been manipulated by the evil genius, Rupert Murdoch. They are the silent majority. The silent majority that speaks via the ballot box. The majority that the noisy , often metropolitan bubble dwelling, minority never come into contact with. No, they live in a self-reaffirming echo chamber. A world of Guardian reading confirmation bias riddled "anybody that has a different world view to us, reads the wrong newspapers ".

This minority are left absolutely gobsmacked after each election/referendum. They cannot believe it. After a brief period of calm they resort to their default position of delusion and begin to embolden each other with vksimd that "they didn't know what they were voting for" " we may have lost the election, but we won the arguement " or " brainwashed by the right wing media " . Never, never ever does it occur to them that they're in the minority and their views simply aren't popular! It's as if they believe that if they drill down and keep repeating the same tired lines, eventually, all us misguided fools will experience the same enlightened opinions they hold. Until that I'd, another electoral trouncing that leaves them in , yet another, state of utter bewilderment!

As for John McDonnell. I think this typifies the Left and their point blank refusal to give any credit to the government.


A week Last Thursday, after days of bleating, "what about the workers" while the government were sorting out business. The government announced the 80% / upto £2500 measures to protect workers incomes.

BBC Newsnight had John Mcdonnell as a guest. Presenter kirsty Wark, Turned to McDonnell and said this.

"John McDonnell, the government has guaranteed workers income upto 2500 or 80% of their wage. This is a move that you , as chancellor, could only dream of. It's unprecedented and is as generous as anything we've ever seen , from other countries. Surely, John McDonnell, even you can give the tory government credit, where credits due!?"

In a moment I wont forget in a disbelieving hurry. The bitter shadow chancellor , with all the jealous and barely hidden resentment he could summon , replied,

"Kirsty, workers have effectively had a 20% pay cut"

And in that sentence he summed up perfectly, the attitude of tiny rump of , never going to be good enough, noisy lefties.

I rolled my eyes and thought of a certain merry band on here. Who's tiny minority motto appears to be ,

"Never let a good crisis go to waist "
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:09 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:31 pm
Quoting people out of context to attempt to prove a point is sad. It's a political thread about the shortcomings of our supposed PM, Johnson. The issue of the virus is not political - and if you'd quoted me fully it would have said; "I'd be complaining about any political party were they making as many mistakes as this government has" (or something like that). Great white - beached on the sand.
To which I replied.
RingoMcCartney wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:55 am
You're absolutely correct Andrew. It's not party political issue. Had it been a Green or Labour government they would still be following the advice, the very same advice, from the very same Chief medical officer , from whom , the Conservative government takes guidance from. Therefore your grievance lays not with the government itself, but with their advisers.
That's still remains the case. Nevertheless you've continued to criticise, tirelessly, the government.

Genuine Question-

It's been well over a week since you posted that. Do you feel that for all your posting you've done.

1 Have you managed to change anybody's opinion on here about the government's handling of this unprecedented crisis?

2 In the real world out there, have more people will have come round to your way of thinking about Boris Johnson and the government?







(Bet he doesn't answer. Shhhhhhh let's see !!!!!!
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:19 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:09 pm
To which I replied.



That's still remains the case. Nevertheless you've continued to criticise, tirelessly, the government.

Genuine Question-

It's been well over a week since you posted that. Do you feel that for all your posting you've done -

1 you've managed to change anybody's opinion on here about the government's handling of this unprecedented crisis?

2 in the real world out there, more people will have come round to your way of thinking about Boris Johnson and the government?




(Bet he doesn't answer. Shhhhhhh let's see !!!!!!
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by dsr » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:25 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:22 pm
Is this to do with climate change, or some sort of military analogy (thinking the Jervis Bay)? I'd have to understand the circumstances, but there are certainly situations in which people risk or give up their lives so that others can live.

I don't accept that our efforts to deal with this virus now will cause more deaths in the future though. This article by Jonathan Portes puts that one to bed better than I could: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... and-health

Another article on the subject here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ives-trump

I listened to an American Senator (or possibly state official?) say he'd put his life on the line in order to safeguard the US economy, and I wondered how he'd accomplish that. Expose himself to the virus, and then refuse all medical assistance? And how would that help the US economy?

What could be done in my opinion to save the economy is put it on pause. I've already set this idea out, but by putting non essential companies into a kind of suspended animation, they'd incur no costs and earn no money, and all the people working for it could go into self isolation without worrying about rent, mortgages, or major bills, and if the government then paid out a living allowance to everyone, then once the measures are no longer required, we can get back to work again. Also rather than looking at all these weeks as a net loss to the economy, with some local or national organisation it's more than possible to give people an opportunity to skill up, or skill out - learn more or different job skills - or just take up something that they enjoy. Online it's not hard to set up communities of similar interest, etc. This time in isolation should be seen as an opportunity.

Regarding the video I posted, so often the number of 130K additional deaths has been hotly disputed by people - many of whom insist the actual number is much less. I understand Hilton is using the figure to prove a point, but if one of the architects of recent austerity accepts a policy he had a hand in writing was responsible for people dying early, then I think it takes the ground away from those who insist austerity didn't kill.
Nothing to do with climate change. Where you and I differ (one of the many) is our view of what the government can do - specifically, your view that the government can print unlimited "new" money and we will be as rich as we always have been.

Which obviously begs the question, why doesn't everybody do it? Why doesn't Senegal, for example, print money and become rich?

Answer - because you can't generate stuff that isn't already there. Senegal can print all the Senegali currency it wants, but if they haven'tr enough food, the paper they write the notes on won't create it.

Which brings us back to the UK. We have more food than Senegal, but nothing like enough to feed everybody here - at least, not to anything like the luxurious standard we have become accustomed to. So if you put our economy on hold, thereby reducing Sterling's value to next to nothing; and replace it with a new type of currency which by its definition will be worth nothing; then how are we going to buy food?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:44 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:35 am
It's hard to go beyond the personal because we don't leave our flat of course, I believe this may even be our third weekend.
Interesting post, T-Rex, on your experiences in Spain.

Can I ask, why do you have so much "concern" for the UK and the UK's gov't if you live in Spain?

How does the Spanish health care system compare with NHS? Is it "tax payer funded" and "free at the point of use" as with NHS or is it set up differently? Can an expat (Brit or other nationalities) access the Spanish health care system, or do you need your own health insurance?
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by martin_p » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:46 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:39 pm
Had a quick skim but its hard to see the good posts for the arguing to be honest. A plea:

We’re all locked down during a worrying period, its really important to stay connected socially with people and share useful observations and advice (on whichever social media people choose to frequent). Some people need that. Others can steer clear.

There are three big threads relating to this outbreak - the taxation one, the political one, and the covid one. All with useful stuff, but at this time scoring points seems pointless (ironic though that may seem). We need to stick to useful contributions and who knows, one useful bit of advice spotted rather than not spotted may save a life or save somebodies finances.
Well that fell on deaf ears.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:53 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:09 pm
To which I replied.



That's still remains the case. Nevertheless you've continued to criticise, tirelessly, the government.

Genuine Question-

It's been well over a week since you posted that. Do you feel that for all your posting you've done.

1 Have you managed to change anybody's opinion on here about the government's handling of this unprecedented crisis?

2 In the real world out there, have more people will have come round to your way of thinking about Boris Johnson and the government?







(Bet he doesn't answer. Shhhhhhh let's see !!!!!!
My answer to how a Labour, or Green or Libdem, or SNP, or PC, or any combination thereof would have responded to the same scientific advice:

I don’t think any other party would have aimed at herd immunity - which, in the absence of a vaccine is just a kind of eugenics in this country (small and joined up). I also don’t think any other party would have passed up the opportunity to work with the EU to source equipment and work together. From these two points, I’d also say any other party would have gone for a greater testing regime.

The biggest problems we face now are; not enough equipment, and not enough testing. We don’t know where the cases will come from, and can only guess how many will come. It’s a purely reactive regime - and this means we can’t allocate resources intelligently.

The initial aim at herd immunity (eugenics - let those who won’t make it die) meant the government could avoid the expense of millions of testing kits, and also keep everything business as usual (until they or the public realised the scale of the casualties), and so were a week or so late with everything else - allowing the virus to spread beyond their control. That’s how I see it, and I can’t imagine another party putting money before people in that way.

Sunak’s budget reprieve for families was therefore a week late. And then it took another week before he had anything for the self employed. He looked after business first, and then small business. I don’t think any other party would have had this priority.

So I think you're wrong.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:01 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:53 pm
My answer to how a Labour, or Green or Libdem, or SNP, or PC, or any combination thereof would have responded to the same scientific advice:

I don’t think any other party would have aimed at herd immunity - which, in the absence of a vaccine is just a kind of eugenics in this country (small and joined up). I also don’t think any other party would have passed up the opportunity to work with the EU to source equipment and work together. From these two points, I’d also say any other party would have gone for a greater testing regime.

The biggest problems we face now are; not enough equipment, and not enough testing. We don’t know where the cases will come from, and can only guess how many will come. It’s a purely reactive regime - and this means we can’t allocate resources intelligently.

The initial aim at herd immunity (eugenics - let those who won’t make it die) meant the government could avoid the expense of millions of testing kits, and also keep everything business as usual (until they or the public realised the scale of the casualties), and so were a week or so late with everything else - allowing the virus to spread beyond their control. That’s how I see it, and I can’t imagine another party putting money before people in that way.

Sunak’s budget reprieve for families was therefore a week late. And then it took another week before he had anything for the self employed. He looked after business first, and then small business. I don’t think any other party would have had this priority.

So I think you're wrong.


Genuine Question-

It's been well over a week since you posted that. Do you feel that for all your posting you've done -

1 you've managed to change anybody's opinion on here about the government's handling of this unprecedented crisis?

2 in the real world out there, do you think more people will have come round to your way of thinking about Boris Johnson and the government?

Locked