INCIDENT: Josh King scores an opener for Bournemouth from a corner. A VAR review overrules the goal, because of a handball in the build-up.

DERMOT'S VERDICT: "I've lost count of the times I've watched this but I was told the angle from the GDS shows it strikes the badge on the sleeve of the shirt, which is part of the arm and that's why it's disallowed.

"According to the VAR it's the correct decision, because they say they're quite clear it has hit the badge."

INCIDENT: With Burnley leading 1-0, Callum Wilson scores an equaliser for Bournemouth on the break. Before play restarts, VAR rules against Bournemouth defender Adam Smith for a handball in his own box moments before, disallows the goal and awards Burnley a penalty.

DERMOT'S VERDICT: "I thought that was a handball. The difference here is, he extends his arm out. When the VAR looked at it, they thought it was handball.

"I predicted this season someone would give a penalty away and go up the other end and score, it's taken 27 match round but that's what's happened.

"Without a doubt, in my mind, it's a handball. He's got to go back and give the penalty and disallow the goal. It seems very unfair to Bournemouth, but the original offence was the handball."

Finally I get to agree with Dermot

Ref Watch: "Who are you and what have you done with Dermot Gallagher? You know you are not allowed to say VAR was correct in giving Burnley anything!"

I thought both incidents were called correctly by the VAR, but now Dermot Gallagher agrees I'm starting to doubt myself.

Exactly what I posted on Sunday. Both struck the “M” logo, which is well below the shoulder.
Nothing to get excited about he is still backing his ex-colleagues but on this occasion he is right.

Not helping with the Bournemouth fans on Twitter. The number of times they say neither was clear and obvious is becoming tiring. They cannot grasp the first one didnt need to be clear and obvious..and the second was clear and obvious. Dean missed a blatant handball (it clearly strikes his arm where his armband is). The firat goal is harsh and if it had stood i doubt any of us would have batted an eyelid. The second and we would have been up in arms about how he didnt give the handball.
I have made the point that with the second they were hoping to profit from a refereeing mistake and are actually more upset that VAR has come to the correct decision.

On the second VAR incident not only does the Bournemouth player lean into the ball he also extends and changes his body shape. Also as well there is a black strap on the sleeve of the Bournemouth shirt midway between the shoulder and the elbow, the ball hits it! It's not even up for debate imo

Linesman perfectly placed to help the ref too.

More and more these people appear to be bottling officiating the game on the pitch, instead they're giving control for decision making over to VAR.
How far into the future will we no longer have officials on the pitch, instead for every throw in, corner, free kick, etc. everyone will simply look at a large screen for the decision.

VAR was even used in the Fury/Wilder fight

They awarded a penalty to Liverpool

As I put on another thread Smith’s reaction as the ball heads for Burnley’s net tells you everything you need to know. He knows he’s handled it and knows that VAR means he won’t get away with it. He stands with hands on head when he should have been starting to celebrate knowing the inevitability of what is about to unfold.

Zlatan wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:55 pm

Finally I get to agree with Dermot

Thank you.

martin_p wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:07 am

As I put on another thread Smith’s reaction as the ball heads for Burnley’s net tells you everything you need to know. He knows he’s handled it and knows that VAR means he won’t get away with it. He stands with hands on head when he should have been starting to celebrate knowing the inevitability of what is about to unfold.

2229F445-4281-4F32-BBA8-7D149EC707E0.jpeg

Thats a great pic

"Linesman perfectly placed to help the ref too"

Agreed

"More and more these people appear to be bottling officiating the game on the pitch"

Interesting perception.

What you don't know is what the referees pre match instruction to his team was.
This may be a bit of a shocker to some people but here goes..

Penalty decisions instructions will often go something like:

"99% on me. I see it, I give it, I turn it down and will make clear.
Under no,circumstances undermine that.
On the odd time I may be out of position look at me first. If I am inviting you in be bold and brave and make the decision. "

This will probably explain why the AR doesnt come in on this occasion as from memory the referee was in and around the penalty area. Therefore it is his credibility to make that decision and not the ARs.

Now I am not saying that is the right or the wrong way to do it, that is what happens.
Having the comms kit on I would hope the AR is saying handball handball. However if the referee is saying no then you do not stick your flag up ever.

The expression used is "assist not insist"

Please don't shoot the messenger, I am only trying to provide you with an insight.

As i remember dp,one of your children is learning to be a ref?
Is this what they are instructed to do?Genuine question.

If I remember correctly DP is himself a qualified referee

No Ney Never wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:21 am

More and more these people appear to be bottling officiating the game on the pitch, instead they're giving control for decision making over to VAR.
How far into the future will we no longer have officials on the pitch, instead for every throw in, corner, free kick, etc. everyone will simply look at a large screen for the decision.

Go on, give FIFA more ideas!

After seeing the video on THE VAR thread and convincing myself that the first goal was deliberate handball and seeing the photo of Smith on here and deciding that Bournemouth took advantage of the refs indecision and Burnley players hesitancy for the second, I have now decided that they are just a team of cheats

rob63 wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:22 pm

Go on, give FIFA more ideas!

FIFA have already been experimenting with technology which could be used for ball in and out of play, similar to goal line technology and, as they already have a VAR system for offside, it could be just a matter of time until the ARs are no longer needed and technology will rule!
Of course, everything will then be 100% correct and everyone will be happy ----won't they?

If the linesman sees an handball in the area, and the ref doesn’t seem to have. Shouldn’t the linesman put his flag up to assist the ref in this case. When the ref looks across at his linesman, he then puts his flag across his chest to signal a penalty?

The lino probably didn’t have the best view of that from the picture as the ball is the other side of the player. Tbh linesmen need to stop being trigger happy anyway now we have VAR. I’ve seen a few offsides given that we’re marginal at best where if play carries on we could have scored...

RammyClaret61 wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:24 am

If the linesman sees an handball in the area, and the ref doesn’t seem to have. Shouldn’t the linesman put his flag up to assist the ref in this case. When the ref looks across at his linesman, he then puts his flag across his chest to signal a penalty?

As dp explained further up the thread, it all depends on the insturctions which Mike Dean has given to his ARs before going out on the pitch.
You also have to remember that ARs have been given instructions not to flag in certain circumstances, however, they are in communication anyway so it is possible that something was said, in fact, I wonder whether that was why Smith was seen as he wasin that picture because he possibly heard the AR saying something.
The AR no longer puts his flag across his chest to signal a penalty, this changed last season.

Not sure why there needs to be pre game instructions from a ref. They should all do the same thing every game, I.e give the Lino the authority if they have the better view...this is why the refs are so bad because they are either the look at me type or shrinking violets.

There should be no need for specific game instructions if there are pre defined roles.

Stevie2112 wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:58 pm

As i remember dp,one of your children is learning to be a ref?
Is this what they are instructed to do?Genuine question.

Stevie2112 you are quite correct my daughter took up the whistle last year and seems to be doing very well. She is off to St George's Park on Sunday for a young referees development day.
These days are for the youngsters showing great potential. She also did the England pathway event over the summer at Warwick uni.

Interesting point re what they are being taught at youth level.
As she has club assistants most of the time who dont want to be there or havent got a clue what they are doing. She has to learn to take ownership of 95% of all decisions including some offsides - you have all seen what subs etc are like. That flag goes up quicker than a rat up a drain pipe.

As she doesnt work with neutral,assistants very often it isnt specifically taught to them at this age.
However the training events we all attend as we progress up the list do steer you in this direction.

I have had a couple of referees say to me this season "let them live and die by their decision after all it is their co ck on the block."

I got told to put.my flag down last weekend when on the far side to me a player came from an offside position to challenge the back of the defender. Whilst acknowledging that he hadn't actually touched the ball he was certainly interfering with play. What I couldnt see was that the ball had just gone out of the field of play at the point my flag went up. Now if I had comms I would be telling the referee "waiting waiting on the offside". He would be telling me "ball out ball out". Therefore no need to flag. Doesn't look messy that way.
Now I ask the question is it more beneficial for the defensive team to have the ball on the floor for the offside and be able to lump it in the other half or have the throw in. Logic would say the former option. They actually scored from the play following the throw in.

Ultimately the referee is the leader of the team and what he or she says goes.

BigF wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:23 pm

If I remember correctly DP is himself a qualified referee

Good memory BigF

Hibsclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:53 am

Not sure why there needs to be pre game instructions from a ref. They should all do the same thing every game, I.e give the Lino the authority if they have the better view...this is why the refs are so bad because they are either the look at me type or shrinking violets.

There should be no need for specific game instructions if there are pre defined roles.

Absolutely crucial for pre.match instructions. Referees are not robots and all have different methods, positions, tolerance levels.

You.may have not worked with a particular AR before or changed something in your game since the last time you worked together.
Briefings can be 5 -20 min long depending on the above.

What I do agree with is that a lot of instructions are very similar but I know I have little quirks in my game that I need my AR to do things slightly differently.

Nobody is asking for them to be robots, just for them to understand the game (as well as the rules) and be consistent. How on earth can you have consistency when the assistant refs have to work differently with every ref. It makes no sense. Applying the laws of a game of football does not need little quirks it needs both the assistants and the ref to understand what they have to do in every game irrespective of who they are working with.

I assume the pre match briefings include watching out for certain players and their traits, effectively partially reffing the game before it begins. In order to achieve more consistency which is what everyone wants refs need to buy into the fact that their job should be done in a consistent way.

That’s before we even talk about the VAR inconsistencies...but the same people applying their little quirks means that one guy is sent off one week for something another stays on for the following week.

The bit about players is generally no. Every player starts with a clean sheet at the beginning of every game. If they choose to breach the permitted guidelines then the referee manages accordingly.

Law is applied consistently however mistakes can be made. As before they are not robots. Law is full of little quirks whether we like it or not. There is a section within regarding interpretation of those laws and hence the " apparent discrepancies" in application of them.
Rest assured there are no two identical tackles in the history of football. Yes there maybe similarities but never identical. Therefore a referee has to use his judgement.

Consistency is a strange one. Ask anyone who has refereed at a decent level about players and their demands for consistency.
Example you play advantage for one team however their skill factor is greatly higher than that of their opponents. They score a goal. Play the same advantage to the weaker team who in effect lose the ball a couple of passes later. Where is the advantage you are asked.
So do you not play advantage at all or do you blow up for every foul and be seen as being fussy / picky / busy ?
What is consistency?

Fans forget that there are 3 teams on the field at a match, hence the need for the referee, who is in overall charge or, at least he was until VAR reared its ugly head, discusses exactly what he requires from his team and they each go onto the field knowing exactly what they are required to do.

dp asks "What is consistency?"
You would only get consistency if you had a robot refereeing because everything else is down to human interpretation and human error and, as can be seen from almost every topic on this board, human beings are all different and have different interpretations, particularly when it comes down to The Laws of the Game. Such is life.

But how can it help having assistant referees working differently every week to the quirks of each referee...they must be unclear whether to flag one week and not the next for certain things if the refs have advised them differently before the game?

The people who have reffed on here are always going to defend and hide behind the interpretations but the fact is that VAR is being done by the same refs that have their onfield quirks and tolerance levels, hence, we get Son sent off and Maguire not for the same thing.

We also get linos that are quick to flag one week and not so the next week...nobody is expecting them to get everything right and they never will. However, working differently with a different person to apply the same laws is a recipe for disaster and that’s what we see every week.

Usually Dermot backs the inconsistencies every week too which highlights where the real problems lie...

Hibsclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:41 pm

But how can it help having assistant referees working differently every week to the quirks of each referee...they must be unclear whether to flag one week and not the next for certain things if the refs have advised them differently before the game?

The people who have reffed on here are always going to defend and hide behind the interpretations but the fact is that VAR is being done by the same refs that have their onfield quirks and tolerance levels, hence, we get Son sent off and Maguire not for the same thing.

We also get linos that are quick to flag one week and not so the next week...nobody is expecting them to get everything right and they never will. However, working differently with a different person to apply the same laws is a recipe for disaster and that’s what we see every week.

Usually Dermot backs the inconsistencies every week too which highlights where the real problems lie...

Sadly people do expect them to get everything right. That's why we now have VAR

You will find that at elite level they often work in the same groups. I think it is 2 referees and 3 assistants rotating between ref/ 4th and AR and week off. Forgive me if the numbers arent quite right but u get my jist.
The thing to realise is that refereeing you develop different strategies within a game. If you find something works well for you then you continue to use it in the game. If things dont go as well you try and find another way of dealing with the incident.
Hence the little quirks.

Hibsclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:41 pm

But how can it help having assistant referees working differently every week to the quirks of each referee...they must be unclear whether to flag one week and not the next for certain things if the refs have advised them differently before the game?

The people who have reffed on here are always going to defend and hide behind the interpretations but the fact is that VAR is being done by the same refs that have their onfield quirks and tolerance levels, hence, we get Son sent off and Maguire not for the same thing.

We also get linos that are quick to flag one week and not so the next week...nobody is expecting them to get everything right and they never will. However, working differently with a different person to apply the same laws is a recipe for disaster and that’s what we see every week.

Usually Dermot backs the inconsistencies every week too which highlights where the real problems lie...

As has always been the case --the only thing which is new is VAR and all that does is introduce 2 other human opinions as to what has happened, The good thing is that this is not the case in all English leagues outside the Premier League so we should be thankful for that.
If you think that things are all great in other countries where VAR is in use you would be wrong and it is because it is not being operated by robots.

As I said further up the thread, FIFA are experimenting using technology for ball in and out of play etc. and, as they already have the means to judge offside, you may get your wish and have the consistency that you desire except for foul play, however, I am sure that they will devise a system to get rid of onfield officials and officiate the game with robots. Football at the top level is getting beyond a joke with the game taking a back seat to the advance of technology which now provides the talking points week in and week out. All media driven and yet they moan as much as anyone about it!

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:55 pm

If you think that things are all great in other countries where VAR is in use you would be wrong and it is because it is not being operated by robots.

I certainly don’t think it is great in other countries. Last season in a Serie A game I saw a penalty given in the 93rd minute and taken in the 103rd minute when it shouldn’t have even been a penalty.

My initial point was about linesmen being trigger happy and then not agreeing with the pre game instructions done by refs. The pre game instructions should be even less crucial if it is broadly the same groups of officials used in games.

My main gripe with officials is that they understand the laws but not the game. This has been further enhanced by VAR nonsense outcomes like our one at Leicester for example. How can that be a foul if you understand the game....

Hibsclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:45 pm

I certainly don’t think it is great in other countries. Last season in a Serie A game I saw a penalty given in the 93rd minute and taken in the 103rd minute when it shouldn’t have even been a penalty.

My initial point was about linesmen being trigger happy and then not agreeing with the pre game instructions done by refs. The pre game instructions should be even less crucial if it is broadly the same groups of officials used in games.

My main gripe with officials is that they understand the laws but not the game. This has been further enhanced by VAR nonsense outcomes like our one at Leicester for example. How can that be a foul if you understand the game....

I know several officials who do certainly know the game as well as being very conversant with The Laws of the Game, however, directives are given and, as an employee, you stick to the directives otherwise you end up out of a job, which has happened to some and one is still awaiting a severance payment.
I was against VAR right from the outset because all it does is introduce more opinions and, in my opinion, undermines the authority of the onfield officials and detracts from the game itself, as happened on Saturday.

People talk about the World Cup and how well VAR worked ---did it? You will never convince me that, in the final, Argentinian referee, Nestor Pitana, was not instructed to award France the penalty which saw them go ahead. He originally gave a goal kick, however, it should have been a corner the ball having come off the Croatian, Perisic. The French protested because they wanted a penalty and Pitana was told to look at the monitor by the Italian VAR official. He looked and was on his way back on to the field to award the corner, however, he was again summoned back to the monitor and it is at this point that I thnk he could well have been told that he had to award the penalty which would then be the justification for the use of VAR which was FIFA's new toy. The consequence of his not doing this would result in his not featuring at International level again.
I have no proof, however, the more that you look at it, the more it seems to be the case.

Anyway, the bottom line is that VAR is here to stay and referees will ontinue to brief their officials because it is what they do. Mistakes will still be made by players, managers, coaches and officials and everyone will still be arguing about VAR rather than a good game of football.
The digital age is taking over and that is what players, managers, coaches, pundits, many fans and some officials want.
Everything must be 100% correct and this is their way of achieving it! Sad, isn't it?

When the AR is eventually phased out by technology, I hope we can expect robots to be shooting tasers at players stealing more than a foot at a throw in.

Players at almost every throw in gain yards of advantage because the AR ( and Referee) allow blatant cheating to go unchecked. I'm sure this, along with the ball 'overhanging the corner quadrant' wasn't as prevelant a few years ago.

JohnMac wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:08 pm

When the AR is eventually phased out by technology, I hope we can expect robots to be shooting tasers at players stealing more than a foot at a throw in.

Players at almost every throw in gain yards of advantage because the AR ( and Referee) allow blatant cheating to go unchecked. I'm sure this, along with the ball 'overhanging the corner quadrant' wasn't as prevelant a few years ago.

It probably wasn't, however, in order to speed up the modern game the directive is that it is OK as long as the throw or free kick is taken in the vicinity of where the ball went out or the offence took place then that is acceptable.
This was never the case when I was officiating because I made sure that the restart was taken very near where the offence happened, however, I have been retired and away from the abuse for years now.

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:28 pm

Everything must be 100% correct and this is their way of achieving it! Sad, isn't it?

When football reaches this point, or even somewhere near, the game will be dead as a spectator sport.

I now only watch Burnley games on tv. Can’t be bothered with the rest. Sad.

JohnMac wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:08 pm

When the AR is eventually phased out by technology, I hope we can expect robots to be shooting tasers at players stealing more than a foot at a throw in.

I now have an image of jedi lightsaber training droids patrolling the line at matches zapping players when they make a mistake......