Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

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TsarBomba
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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by TsarBomba » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:40 pm

Dark Cloud wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:56 pm
I still think we're going down the wrong route and making things much more complicated than they already are if we are trying to factor in an increase in overall capacity. Certain areas of the ground need serious work if not a rebuild and that in itself presents enough problems, but we really don't need extra seats. We only sell out a few times a season and although we could possibly sell maybe a thousand or so more on those few occasions, it wouldn't be something we really need.
This is quite blinkered.

We don’t sell out, in part, because the seats that are left for walk ons are poor.

Families are not going to pay £100+ for a crap view, and the likelihood of getting drenched in the winter.

We absolutely need more premium seating, and I think we would be surprised just how much demand there is.
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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by TsarBomba » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:44 pm

Dark Cloud wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:12 am
I fully understand the club's predicament. A prolonged stay in the PL simply emphasises how dated, tatty, shabby and increasingly unfit for purpose some parts of our ground are becoming, BUT committing to a big investment, say in the most obvious area I.E. the CFS would mean probably a season of disruption with no stand (or revenue) behind the goal. It would also mean a serious sit down with Burnley CC about the best way forward in order to build something worthwhile and progressive and it would inevitably divert funds from strengthening the playing side which is clearly the biggest worry. I actually believe the situation is rapidly becoming critical and as extremely astute chaps Garlick and the board must see that too. But they are in a tough spot and absolutely the last thing they want to do is chuck millions at a shiny new stand and immediately go down to the Championship as everyone would then look rather stupid! One thing that imo opinion makes things SLIGHTLY easier is that we really don't need to be building to increase capacity (maybe a thousand or two, if at all) as 95% of games we won't sell those seats whatever happens in the future.
Another issue is spending millions of pounds on a new shiny stand for the benefit of away fans.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by tim_noone » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:50 pm

TsarBomba wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:40 pm
This is quite blinkered.

We don’t sell out, in part, because the seats that are left for walk ons are poor.

Families are not going to pay £100+ for a crap view, and the likelihood of getting drenched in the winter.

We absolutely need more premium seating, and I think we would be surprised just how much demand there is.
Spot on tsarbomba some people actually do want the Best seats in the house...just being herded about to "this will do" actually won't do. Imo

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by tim_noone » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:52 pm

TsarBomba wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:44 pm
Another issue is spending millions of pounds on a new shiny stand for the benefit of away fans.
Are you saying away fans 'shouldn't be catered for?
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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by TsarBomba » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:58 pm

tim_noone wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:52 pm
Are you saying away fans 'shouldn't be catered for?
Course they should, but it would be ludicrous if away fans had better facilities than us.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Spijed » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:03 pm

TsarBomba wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:40 pm
This is quite blinkered.

We don’t sell out, in part, because the seats that are left for walk ons are poor.

Families are not going to pay £100+ for a crap view, and the likelihood of getting drenched in the winter.

We absolutely need more premium seating, and I think we would be surprised just how much demand there is.
We don't sell out simply because the demand isn't there for teams like Watford or Bournemouth.

Yet we had a record attendance when we played Man U. Strange that.

As for getting drenched, there isn't a ground anywhere that keeps supporters who sit near to the pitch dry!

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by tim_noone » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:03 pm

TsarBomba wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:58 pm
Course they should, but it would be ludicrous if away fans had better facilities than us.
But surely that contradicts your crap view post? Away fans count also. The reason I wont attend Newcastle is how away fans are shepherded into Sh!t seats. As an away fan I count.
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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by claretandy » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:59 pm

Gordaleman wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:54 pm
As the Bob Lord only houses about 2,500 at the moment, I think another 3,000 from 15 rows is stretching it a bit.
The Bob Lord holds 3100, mate.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Gordaleman » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:01 pm

claretandy wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:59 pm
The Bob Lord holds 3100, mate.
Just going off UTC stats.

https://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboa ... hp?t=13441

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Claretforever » Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:50 pm

I tried having a count at one time, and my figures are a few posts down on that thread, GM. I got the Bob Lord to 3,036.

15 extra rows would add around 2,400 seats to the Bob Lord, but even configured for fans, I’d imagine the Max you’d get is 10 rows, so about 1,600, maybe 1,700. You’d then have to factor in loss of seats through extra exits higher up. Perhaps you could get it to 4,500.

I think what they should do is as I mentioned on this thread though, and create a couple of levels of Exec boxes on top of the current offices, start the stand roof at Harry Potts Way to cover the stand. Changes seats to plastic would give you a further 400 normal seats anyway, unless we creat a sense of quality with it being the main stand, and install comfy seats. Arsenal/Brighton type padded ones.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Tricky Trevor » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:02 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:53 am
Redeveloping the Bob Lord would be more than just increasing capacity.

Increasing premium seating.
Upgrading the corporate facilities.
Building new changing rooms in there that belong in there.
Better press facilities.
Cameras on that side for when the low sun causes problems. Although the new stand might stop them.

It will give a lot more revenue than a new cricketfield stand.
You are looking at a brand new stand. My method would just be an extension and a damn site cheaper. We are still only little old hard up Burnley.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Tricky Trevor » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:04 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:33 pm
The club won't own up to the kerb edge though. Although no practical reason why they couldn't extend as far as the club shop frontage. But that would be a relatively small amount of extra seats gained for quite a large expense. I would suggest replacing the wooden seats with smaller plastic seats would be the most efficient way to increase the attendance.
Not sure about that. I know with your house the plans go out to the middle of the road. It would require planning permission either way.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Claretmatt4 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:34 pm

One big stand to replace both Bob Lord and CFS a bit like at Stoke. Can be as tall as CFS is now. Put away fans in the corner out of the way, put new changing rooms under Bob Lord.

Easy

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by tim_noone » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:46 pm

Claretmatt4 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:34 pm
One big stand to replace both Bob Lord and CFS a bit like at Stoke. Can be as tall as CFS is now. Put away fans in the corner out of the way, put new changing rooms under Bob Lord.

Easy
I don't get this "Burnley" new? thing of wanting away fans put in a corner out of the way etc.attitude..... it really stinks. Nothing Better in the 60s and 70s on a match day or under the lights when thousands turned up and gave the games a real buzz of Excitement. It Adds to the atmosphere Fu..ing enjoy!

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Tricky Trevor » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:52 pm

As away fans coaches are on Harry Potts Way why not give them town end of BL and allow Clarets to fill CFS and really get an atmosphere going?
Flexible separation could be moved allowing for away tickets sold.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by tim_noone » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:00 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:52 pm
As away fans coaches are on Harry Potts Way why not give them town end of BL and allow Clarets to fill CFS and really get an atmosphere going?
Flexible separation could be moved allowing for away tickets sold.
The easiest one for me......away fans come off belvedere road.share upper and Lowe longside. Obvious segregation.Burnley fans access Rest of Long side via Jimmy mac end.quite easy really.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Claretmatt4 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:02 pm

tim_noone wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:46 pm
I don't get this "Burnley" new? thing of wanting away fans put in a corner out of the way etc.attitude..... it really stinks. Nothing Better in the 60s and 70s on a match day or under the lights when thousands turned up and gave the games a real buzz of Excitement. It Adds to the atmosphere Fu..ing enjoy!
Burnley thing?

Lots of teams do it. I don't like away fans behind the goal as they help 'suck goals in' late on in games.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by tim_noone » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:11 pm

Claretmatt4 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:02 pm
Burnley thing?

Lots of teams do it. I don't like away fans behind the goal as they help 'suck goals in' late on in games.
Yea well I'm from an Era That Had fans Behind the Goals or shared... Like the old Blackpool Kop Boothen End.. Sheffield utd. Etc...... And just loved the olympiakos fans suck a goal in at the emirates.where these days we take a coach load.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Dressinggown » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:15 pm

Re-roofing the CFS is surely not an option?

The rear wall is buckling and cracks are plainly evident. I'm surprised that we get a safety certificate. It would be bonkers to try and replace the roof.

Knock it down and start again. This doesn't need to be a massive project:

Single tier, standing room ready, 5,000 capacity with any corporate facilities located at the rear.

Any increase in ground capacity, if required, could be the next stage, linking the CFS with a new reprofiled BLS. However, the BLS has similar attributes to multi storey carparks.

Knock it down and start again .
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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by tim_noone » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:20 pm

Dressinggown wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:15 pm
Re-roofing the CFS is surely not an option?

The rear wall is buckling and cracks are plainly evident. I'm surprised that we get a safety certificate. It would be bonkers to try and replace the roof.

Knock it down and start again. This doesn't need to be a massive project:

Single tier, standing room ready, 5,000 capacity with any corporate facilities located at the rear.

Any increase in ground capacity, if required, could be the next stage, linking the CFS with a new reprofiled BLS. However, the BLS has similar attributes to multi storey carparks.

Knock it down and start again .
Papering over the cracks is a very northern tight fisted Pastime though.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Rileybobs » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:48 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:04 pm
Not sure about that. I know with your house the plans go out to the middle of the road. It would require planning permission either way.
Ownership would only extend to the middle of the road if the road is private. Harry Potts Way is an adopted road therefore in the council’s ownership. BFC only own up to the extent of the building, maybe slightly further, so would not be able to build over the footpath.
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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Dressinggown » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:05 pm

Capacity increase should be quite far down our list of priorities with regard to the ground.

The JHS and JMS are rarely full. As has been said in many other posts, any increase in capacity will only result in more away fans attending.. We have created a good bit of an atmosphere in the CFS which has been lacking for many years. Visitors beware .

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by rob63 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:00 am

Tricky Trevor wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:04 pm
Not sure about that. I know with your house the plans go out to the middle of the road. It would require planning permission either way.
Think your plans only go out to the middle of the road if you're on a freehold housing development, the downside of it is that you're also responsible for the upkeep of your section of the road & pathway. Older terraced houses tended to be on leasehold & the footprint of the property was within the walls of the building itself, the council being responsible for the street & path.
As Rileybobs points out, Harry Potts Way is an adopted road & the local/County council is responsible for it's upkeep in lieu of using it as a main thoroughfare for the town. The footprint of the area owned is usually highlighted on the building plans.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by snapcrackleandpop » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:07 am

I know the ground needs doing it is very poor, but where do the displaced fans go whilst it’s being done.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Bosscat » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:20 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:48 pm
Ownership would only extend to the middle of the road if the road is private. Harry Potts Way is an adopted road therefore in the council’s ownership. BFC only own up to the extent of the building, maybe slightly further, so would not be able to build over the footpath.
Bradford did it with the Midland Road Stand...
Valley Parade.jpg.gallery.jpg
Valley Parade.jpg.gallery.jpg (53.86 KiB) Viewed 642 times

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:24 am

snapcrackleandpop wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:07 am
I know the ground needs doing it is very poor, but where do the displaced fans go whilst it’s being done.
This is why the extra tier on Bob Lord has to be done first.
The design and contract, both allow for the lower tier Bob Lord to remain open during construction
and made safe for each home match.
Once this large upper tier is complete, relocate to Bob Lord whilst CFS redeveloped.
Upper Tier Bob Lord would easily house the 4,500 needed from CFS.

Civil Engineer here, this can be done, it would cost, but no loss in capacity whilst it's happening.
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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by snapcrackleandpop » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:27 am

When can you start :lol:

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by aggi » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:34 am

Wasn't there issues with a Bob Lord of increased size (whether new or on top of the existing one) potentially not being approved as it would block light to the properties across the road.

(Although looking at a map I'd expect the sun to come from the other side so maybe I've just imagined that.)

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Bosscat » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:42 am

aggi wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:34 am
Wasn't there issues with a Bob Lord of increased size (whether new or on top of the existing one) potentially not being approved as it would block light to the properties across the road.

(Although looking at a map I'd expect the sun to come from the other side so maybe I've just imagined that.)
As the Bob Lord Stand is on the South side of Turf Moor how much light would be blocked.......

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:45 am

Light is not a Planning Issue.

If anything it is a civil issue.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:51 am

2 Bee Holed wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:45 am
Light is not a Planning Issue.

If anything it is a civil issue.
Not strictly true. There is planning policy regarding overshadowing and loss of light so this will be considered by planning authorities.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Quickenthetempo » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:17 pm

snapcrackleandpop wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:07 am
I know the ground needs doing it is very poor, but where do the displaced fans go whilst it’s being done.
As long as we don't employ Barnfield or do it on the cheap, we could get it done over the summer months.

The job would need manning up though, and night work for the inside jobs.

With big penalties for firms not sticking to schedules. When I used to work on shopping centres for Bovis, there was generally a £10k a day fine for over running the completion date.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:13 pm

Claretforever wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:33 am
We do need to redevelop. We have to improve what we’ve got while we have money, as there’ll come a time when we need to improve and we have none.

Comments about the last time we did those stands we dropped down the league, although factual, don’t paint the full picture.

Back then we spend the equivalent of around 3 years turnover on the redevelopment. That would be like us spending £400 million on two stands now. The reality being that it would cost nearer a tenth of that, and over a few years of design and development would be a fraction of our turnover.

The Bob Lord doesn’t need another tier. What it need is extending backwards to the boundary of the club land like the old Brunshaw Road stand, and a new goalpost/cantilever roof adding. It doesn’t even need more seats, and that extra space could be for executive boxes at the back, maybe even on two levels, as we are short of them apparently.

The Cricket Field needs rebuilding though I suspect, unless they can re-roof it, build a corner stand for the changing facilities which would make the concourse much bigger, and make it rail seating in there. You could even add a walkway on a mezzanine type structure at the back for extra egress, like Bramall Lane’s Kop, if we could acquire/rent a 10-15m plot of land from BCC which is currently used as practice and storage.

Totally capacity: same/slight increase due to Exec areas.
Brentford's ground opens next season and cost 71 million, so unlikely to cost a tenth.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:55 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:51 am
Not strictly true. There is planning policy regarding overshadowing and loss of light so this will be considered by planning authorities.
Rileybobs: Too complicated to discuss on here and I am no expert.

However, my instinct is Section (237?) of Town and Country Planning Act 1990 would look favourably
upon an application with such social and economic benefits to the town.

These houses are south of the Bob Lord, they must be around 12 to 15m away from the BFC's land.
I am not sure exactly what light they would be losing.

BFC will never know unless they try!

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Rileybobs » Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:37 pm

2 Bee Holed wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:55 pm
Rileybobs: Too complicated to discuss on here and I am no expert.

However, my instinct is Section (237?) of Town and Country Planning Act 1990 would look favourably
upon an application with such social and economic benefits to the town.

These houses are south of the Bob Lord, they must be around 12 to 15m away from the BFC's land.
I am not sure exactly what light they would be losing.

BFC will never know unless they try!
Not disagreeing, I doubt increasing the depth and height of the BLS would have any significant impact on the properties opposite. Just that it will be a planning consideration.

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Claretforever » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:57 pm

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:13 pm
Brentford's ground opens next season and cost 71 million, so unlikely to cost a tenth.
Brentford are building an entire new stadium and residential blocks, with the sale of residential properties eventually going towards build costs. It’s also being built in one of the more expensive areas of the country.

Burnley FC need two stands built in one of the cheapest areas of the country.

£40-50m is a fair estimate of build costs considering we managed to build two stands 24 years ago for £5m. It’s also nearer a tenth of the cost of our turnover over that period of time, as I stated.

What we’re you thinking it would cost to build a new stand at the CF end, and develop the Bob Lord?

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Re: Next redevelopment at the Turf .... ?

Post by Claretforever » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:04 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:37 pm
Not disagreeing, I doubt increasing the depth and height of the BLS would have any significant impact on the properties opposite. Just that it will be a planning consideration.
It will be, you’re right.

The old Brunshaw Road stand used to stand 45 feet high at the point where the offices now start. How tall is the current Bob Lord stand because it appears smaller?

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