Self Employed

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:58 am

Grumps wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:24 am
Don't take this as 100 per cent correct, but I was talking to a small business owner, and they say if you are eligible for the grant aspect of the help, that doesn't need paying back

Thanks, I do need to have a good read through yesterdays news, and also ring the accountant etc Monday just to see what's what.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:21 am

Yeah, grants arent repayable.

They'll have to bring in further measures for the self-employed, surely.

Dy1geo · Post by **Dy1geo** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:51 am

HMRC will have records of tax returns so at this time I have no sympathy for the “self employed” that for many years have persisted in their line of career whilst only having a profit after tax below the Personal Allowance or even the NI Threshold. If you are self assessing an income of £8000. - £12,000 £100 a week or so UC is not that bad a drop.

There are though many that earn more being self employed that will see a huge drop in earnings that up to Feb this year will have earned normal earnings and in Jan have to pay tax for 2019-20 tax year albeit offset by Jan 2020 1st payment on account but given the possible huge reduction in earnings that payment may be hard to pay and should be deferred until July 2021.

There will always be losers when situations like this arise

Grumps · Post by **Grumps** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:53 am

Tall Paul wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:21 am
Yeah, grants arent repayable.

They'll have to bring in further measures for the self-employed, surely.

You would hope so. I've been really impressed with the government response so far, hopefully it will continue and the self employed get the help they need.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:19 am

The self employed and small business owners are vital to the economy. Tory governments normally want to encourage free enterprise and entrepreneurism which I am all in favour off. If they make provision for employees and not the self employed or small business owners I won’t be voting for them again. It’s sends out completely the wrong message imo.

Heathclaret · Post by **Heathclaret** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:21 am

Dy1geo wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:51 am
HMRC will have records of tax returns so at this time I have no sympathy for the “self employed” that for many years have persisted in their line of career whilst only having a profit after tax below the Personal Allowance or even the NI Threshold. If you are self assessing an income of £8000. - £12,000 £100 a week or so UC is not that bad a drop.

There are though many that earn more being self employed that will see a huge drop in earnings that up to Feb this year will have earned normal earnings and in Jan have to pay tax for 2019-20 tax year albeit offset by Jan 2020 1st payment on account but given the possible huge reduction in earnings that payment may be hard to pay and should be deferred until July 2021.

There will always be losers when situations like this arise

I understand your point, but would you see people suffer because they played the tax game.

I think everyone should be given the amount they need to live. Self employed and company owners have taken the **** for years with their fiddles, working in construction I see it all the time, but I wouldn’t wish terrible hardship on them.

Although some of them would think losing the Range Rover Sport is a hardship.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:36 am

Many here talking about the self employed the same as they talk about the "immigrant".

They all do this, they all do that... etc
Most of it negative, not grounded with and statistics, all anecdotal and most of it ********.

Have we got the Daily Mail to thank for this too?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:49 am

CombatClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:36 am
Many here talking about the self employed the same as they talk about the "immigrant".

They all do this, they all do that... etc
Most of it negative, not grounded with and statistics, all anecdotal and most of it ********.

Have we got the Daily Mail to thank for this too?

Some very disappointing posts on here showing little or no empathy for a huge sector of society. This "cash in hand" argument that some put forward is simply a deflection from the fact that there are many who have no income.
As a couple we're extremely lucky because I have a Teacher's Pension to fall back on - hopefully, but all my wife's contracts (none of them cash in hand and some of them abroad) are cancelled until November and contracts beyond that have not been signed off yet and put on hold, so she's about £20,000 down, though admittedly this is gross so it probably will work out at about 50% of that. I also do a bit of freelance work [teaching etc], (again all paid by bank transfer) and I'm about £3000 down, but that only takes me up to the autumn so if it continues into the autumn term then the losses will continue.
I don't see anything in the measures announced so far to help us.
I repeat however that we are very fortunate that I have a regular income from my pension. It's the others that I really worry about.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:57 am

Not all self employed are taking cash payments although it is rife in catering, taxi hire, hair dressing and building work. Any payments that could be offered though would only be based on declared income so people will only benefit based on how honest they have been.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:59 am

There is always a lowest common denominator. I think it must have a magnetic force, given its attraction.

barba · Post by **barba** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:43 am

Blackrod wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:57 am
Not all self employed are taking cash payments although it is rife in catering, taxi hire, hair dressing and building work. Any payments that could be offered though would only be based on declared income so people will only benefit based on how honest they have been.

I'm expecting some further measures for SEs, but incredibly complicated and can only be be done via self assessments. I'm self-employed and although I don't foresee needing assistance it would be nice to know that if it goes on for a significant period of time then there could be help. I've declared every penny i've earned in the last 15 years

Dy1geo · Post by **Dy1geo** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:50 am

Heathclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:21 am
I understand your point, but would you see people suffer because they played the tax game.

I think everyone should be given the amount they need to live. Self employed and company owners have taken the **** for years with their fiddles, working in construction I see it all the time, but I wouldn’t wish terrible hardship on them.

Although some of them would think losing the Range Rover Sport is a hardship.

No I don’t want people to suffer but the point I was making is that if you are used to living off a low Net profit the drop down to the Universal Credit is not too bad especially if you have a little income still coming in. Surely you can’t be saying the government should cover their net income in full.

You said the tax game but it is these very people who will moan that the NHS is underfunded with the shortage in ventilators.

If you are employed and your employer lays you off it is pretty transparent as the tax system can see you have no income and thus it is easy to cover the 80% but with the self employed you can’t just pay 80% of Net Profit as some may still have income whilst other’s may see it as a chance to not work when they could do.

Sadly there will be many losers with what is going on and virtually everyone will be affected. They will be those who earn over £30k who will be laid off and base their lifestyles around that income who will suffer dropping to 80% subject to the £2500 cap.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:52 pm

Grumps wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:27 am
Hairdressers, barbers etc, places where people don't want to go will suffer greatly, they Carnt carry on regardless because people arnt going in the shops!!

It's good you've used that particular example, people will do appointment only or go mobile, there's always ways around everything if you look hard enough, I'm not saying there'll be better off than normal but far from down & out & destitute.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:56 pm

Grumps wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:27 am
Hairdressers, barbers etc, places where people don't want to go will suffer greatly, they Carnt carry on regardless because people arnt going in the shops!!

If people aren't going to shops the shops wouldn't be empty, there can't stock the shelves up fast enough, if anything you could argue people are going to the shops too often & overbuying when there get there, that's where the problems are, people buy like there's no tomorrow.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:07 pm

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:56 pm
If people aren't going to shops the shops wouldn't be empty, there can't stock the shelves up fast enough, if anything you could argue people are going to the shops too often & overbuying when there get there, that's where the problems are, people buy like there's no tomorrow.

You are either

or

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:12 pm

My daughter and partner are self employed.
Daughter is a musician, who works with young and old and infirmed. Music for lung health, Boogie Mites, dementia etc. All gone in a flash.

Partner teaches languages, one to one for exams etc... all gone in a flash.

Not sure what they do now. Await the detail.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:14 pm

IanMcL wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:12 pm
Partner teaches languages, one to one for exams etc... all gone in a flash.

Is teaching online via tools such as Skype, possible?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:48 pm

FactualFrank wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:14 pm
Is teaching online via tools such as Skype, possible?

Yes, but try persuading people to pay for it in the present climate. Quite a number of our friends are setting up things like this at present and advertising the service, but getting very little response.

Grumps · Post by **Grumps** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:51 pm

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:52 pm
It's good you've used that particular example, people will do appointment only or go mobile, there's always ways around everything if you look hard enough, I'm not saying there'll be better off than normal but far from down & out & destitute.

How ill informed you are. The one I know about personally closes today and is appointment only anyway but nobody is making appointments. Still have to pay rent. That's both people in the household without work, young baby to look after and at the moment are to get 80 quid a week? Other shops in same city have had to do same, so close to down and out, but then you obviously know better

Grumps · Post by **Grumps** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:52 pm

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:56 pm
If people aren't going to shops the shops wouldn't be empty, there can't stock the shelves up fast enough, if anything you could argue people are going to the shops too often & overbuying when there get there, that's where the problems are, people buy like there's no tomorrow.

Barbers and hairdressers shops, I wasn't talking about anything else

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:04 pm

FactualFrank wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:14 pm
Is teaching online via tools such as Skype, possible?

It is FF. However, my partner suffers from a phone phobia, so that is a non starter. One company she accesses pupils through has a 'classroom'. That, too is currently a step too far, although I am presently encouraging investigation.

The other driver to cancellation is the 'no exams' scenario.

atlantalad · Post by **atlantalad** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:18 pm

"Self employed and company owners have taken the **** for years with their fiddles, working in construction I see it all the time, "

Exactly.

That's - karma. If they don't support the social system then why should they expect to benefit from it. It may be a hard stance but anyone on a low wage who has been fairly and honestly contributing into the tax system would rightly feel it is unjust for their contributions to be diverted to support the self employed who manipulate their tax returns.

A % £ support based on a previous average yearly self assessment tax return would be a fair way to support the honest self employed.

fwiw, my father worked is whole life self employed and always kept a sum aside for potential rainy days - so I know there are fiddles going on through the industry.

expoultryboy · Post by **expoultryboy** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:23 pm

Blackrod : i run a small taxi company and 90% of our work comes through school/council contracts . Therefore by Monday a large amount of our business will disappear ( we haven't been told how many of our kids will still be going in ) . By January 31st , we all sent our tax returns in and paid our taxes . So the fairest way would be to pay every self employed person , 80% of the nett figure they declared if they've no work . In this way , the people who've been "fiddling " their figures would only get a pittance . I'd of thought the hmrc system should be able to do this quite easily .

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:20 pm

All this " tax dodging" and "fiddling " talk for the self employed is a bit hard to read.
I've been a plumber and seen bosses take cash in hand etc.

Having moved to a complete new job and being self employed I CANNOT not run my business 100% squeaky clean, most of my work comes through the government or councils, and all done via transfers after invoices.

I'm not naive to think some self employed dont take cash and skim of money for the weekends Leisure activities, but some of the posts on here stringing everyone up and lack of empathy isn't nice.

Appears last months "be kind" has been replaced with "fcuk you, I'm alright"

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:25 pm

MACCA wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:20 pm
All this " tax dodging" and "fiddling " talk for the self employed is a bit hard to read.
I've been a plumber and seen bosses take cash in hand etc.

Having moved to a complete new job and being self employed I CANNOT not run my business 100% squeaky clean, most of my work comes through the government or councils, and all done via transfers after invoices.

I'm not naive to think some self employed dont take cash and skim of money for the weekends Leisure activities, but some of the posts on here stringing everyone up and lack of empathy isn't nice.

Appears last months "be kind" has been replaced with "fcuk you, I'm alright"

Good to see Leisure Active at weekends..

Grumps · Post by **Grumps** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:27 pm

MACCA wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:20 pm
All this " tax dodging" and "fiddling " talk for the self employed is a bit hard to read.
I've been a plumber and seen bosses take cash in hand etc.

Having moved to a complete new job and being self employed I CANNOT not run my business 100% squeaky clean, most of my work comes through the government or councils, and all done via transfers after invoices.

I'm not naive to think some self employed dont take cash and skim of money for the weekends Leisure activities, but some of the posts on here stringing everyone up and lack of empathy isn't nice.

Appears last months "be kind" has been replaced with "fcuk you, I'm alright"

I think a lot of people are making assumptions based on ignorance. Most self employed I know get paid via bank transfer, or card payments, all of which are traceable, yes there will be cash only jobs, but not on the grand scale some on here think.
I think the intelligence of those criticising on here, is shown by old Jakubclaret, who at a time of social distancing, or isolation, his answer to it all is to set up a business that relies on going into people's homes, and get that close to them to cut their hair

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:22 pm

Grumps wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:52 pm
Barbers and hairdressers shops, I wasn't talking about anything else

There's no magic solution to any personal or particular circumstance, it is what it is, folk will get by, whether it's tightening the belt/making cutbacks, people are far more resilient than you give them credit for. People who are homeless (some) with nothing survive & get by, nevermind people dependant on steady incomes, it'll all sort itself out.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:30 pm

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:22 pm
There's no magic solution to any personal or particular circumstance, it is what it is, folk will get by, whether it's tightening the belt/making cutbacks, people are far more resilient than you give them credit for. People who are homeless (some) with nothing survive & get by, nevermind people dependant on steady incomes, it'll all sort itself out.

I'm alright Jack.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:33 pm

taio wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:30 pm
I'm alright Jack.

Yes at this juncture I'm ok, if it continues which is likely I won't be, it's too early in the day for anybody to be certain about next week nevermind next month & so on.

tarkys_ears · Post by **tarkys_ears** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:46 pm

It's amazing how many lefties are tax dodgers and abusers of benefits.

Truly.

Grumps · Post by **Grumps** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:55 pm

tarkys_ears wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:46 pm
It's amazing how many lefties are tax dodgers and abusers of benefits.

Truly.

So right-handed folk are OK then?

rob63 · Post by **rob63** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:04 pm

The moderators really need to shut this thread down asap, I've never read such a collection of ill-informed, bigoted self-serving & envious claptrap in my life!

Like Grumps says, most legit businesses are paid by bacs, card or electronic means these days if they're doing work for legit companies, as are most of their outgoing bills too. If someone is taking mainly cash, then he must be operating mainly on a labour-only basis rather than trading in goods, you can't make legitimately bought materials disappear because there's a paper trail & a profit percentage to maintain, particularly if VAT registered.

Also Bill, self-employed people pay both Income tax & National insurance at a percentage rate on their profits, as it's treated as part of their income, -so if you paid very little of either you were either running a glorified hobby or you're the worlds shi****st businessman if you weren't actually fiddling!

If anyone feels so aggrieved about their "mates" fiddling the system I suggest they call the HMRC hotline & shop them.....now, more than ever you can see what the NHS could do with the extra money, how many ventilators could that buy & how many lives could be saved?....... & before you say "I'm no grass" I'd suggest you're not much of a man either if you don't.

Don't bother replying to this post as I won't be reading your replies as you've pi**ed me off so much with your ill-informed comments!!!!!

tarkys_ears · Post by **tarkys_ears** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:04 pm

Shame all these IR35 tax Dodgers didn't decide to go PAYE before the deadline... They could be sitting at home now with a nice little income.

Don't expect people to feel sorry for you.

P.s enjoy the benefits of what you were resisting!

Longsidebogs · Post by **Longsidebogs** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:11 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:52 pm
Unbelievable, what a joke of a government.

4.8 million people just got hung out to dry.

Johnson is already going down as the worst, most useless prime minister in history.

Erm.....no he is not!

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:21 pm

rob63 wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:04 pm
The moderators really need to shut this thread down asap, I've never read such a collection of ill-informed, bigoted self-serving & envious claptrap in my life!

Also Bill, self-employed people pay both Income tax & National insurance at a percentage rate on their profits, as it's treated as part of their income, -so if you paid very little of either you were either running a glorified hobby or you're the worlds shi****st businessman if you weren't actually fiddling!

Don't bother replying to this post as I won't be reading your replies as you've pi**ed me off so much with your ill-informed comments!!!!!

That's a shame, because you are making ill-informed comments of the very highest order.
Tax dodging is one thing, and I neither do it or approve of it. However, reinvesting profits back into a business (or glorified hobby if it suits you) rather than paying tax on those profits is perfectly legitimate.
Mind your anger, you may give yourself stress related heart problems at a very dangerous time.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:38 pm

Just to throw something else in for the benefit of those who don't know, (which appears to be a quite few on here). If you're self-employed and have had a contract abroad, then most likely they will have taken tax out of your pay at source. (Tax on the GROSS amount by the way, and at a higher rate than here). You can put this on your UK tax return at the end of the tax year, and under the Double Taxation Agreements we have with many countries you won't pay tax twice, but you've still lost the money at source. So many self-employed people have already paid a good lump of tax even before they fill in a tax form, (maybe months and months later).

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:48 am

My wife is badly affected by this.

3 days a week supply teaching. She is registered with 6 agencies, they deduct PAYE and NI etc.
I suppose this is like a zero hours contract.
Plus she works 2 morning per week teaching music to toddlers and babies. (self employed/sole trader).
Both of these sources of income are declared annually on a self assessment (SA) form.

Both sources of income have dried up overnight.

Surely a fair way of doing it is to look at the last submitted SA form (18/19 tax year)
and for HMRC to pay her 80% of her income from the employed part
and 80% of the declared net profit from the SA part?

That way then 30% of the working population are being treated the same as the other 70%?

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:56 am

2 Bee Holed wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:48 am
My wife is badly affected by this.

3 days a week supply teaching. She is registered with 6 agencies, they deduct PAYE and NI etc.
I suppose this is like a zero hours contract.
Plus she works 2 morning per week teaching music to toddlers and babies. (self employed/sole trader).
Both of these sources of income are declared annually on a self assessment (SA) form.

Both sources of income have dried up overnight.

Surely a fair way of doing it is to look at the last submitted SA form (18/19 tax year)
and for HMRC to pay her 80% of her income from the employed part
and 80% of the declared net profit from the SA part?

That way then 30% of the working population are being treated the same as the other 70%?

Her PAYE income should be covered under the scheme announced by the chancellor the other day. Although it goes on the SA tax return, the employer also reports it to HMRC when they pay her.

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:11 am

Tall Paul wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:56 am
Her PAYE income should be covered under the scheme announced by the chancellor the other day. Although it goes on the SA tax return, the employer also reports it to HMRC when they pay her.

I wish it was Tall Paul.
You would have thought so and I appreciate the situation is very fluid.
However, the agencies are saying no, they are advising her to claim Job seekers allowance/UC.

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:14 am

Tall Paul wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:56 am
Her PAYE income should be covered under the scheme announced by the chancellor the other day. Although it goes on the SA tax return, the employer also reports it to HMRC when they pay her.

They are simply day to day contracts, covering teachers who are off sick/training.
I suppose this is like a zero hours contract, there must be millions in my wife's position.
Trouble is, she is in the 'vulnerable group' too.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:20 am

2 Bee Holed wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:11 am
I wish it was Tall Paul.
You would have thought so and I appreciate the situation is very fluid.
However, the agencies are saying no, they are advising her to claim Job seekers allowance/UC.

That doesn't sound right by the agencies, assuming they are classed as her employer (which it sounds like they are if they're deducting PAYE and NI). They said that people on zero hours contracts should be able to claim based on their average weekly/monthly wages, similar to sick pay.

I run the payroll for my employer so I'll need to look into the detail of the scheme this week. I'll let you know.

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:47 am

Tall Paul wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:20 am
That doesn't sound right by the agencies, assuming they are classed as her employer (which it sounds like they are if they're deducting PAYE and NI). They said that people on zero hours contracts should be able to claim based on their average weekly/monthly wages, similar to sick pay.

I run the payroll for my employer so I'll need to look into the detail of the scheme this week. I'll let you know.

That would be great Tall Paul, thanks.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:02 am

Easiest and most fair way to do it would offer 80% of the self employed Net from the last set of accounts.

Therefore anyone "fiddling" or who had doing mostly "cash" jobs would only get a % of the declared funds, so have only been effecting themselves.

Those who have done everything by the book, get the same benefits as everyone else.

I'm yet to hear or see a tradesmen, self employed or business owner etc say they want to carry on making money or profits at their previous rate.
Most I speak to are quite happy having enough just to get by, feed their families, pay the bills and make sure the business is still there at the other side if this.

I certainly dont want any more than the minimum needed to come out at the other side still with a job.

Ptgclaret · Post by **Ptgclaret** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:34 am

That's a great idea. Don't see how they can demand more from the system than they officially earn.

expoultryboy · Post by **expoultryboy** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:00 pm

Macca : that's what I put in my post yesterday .

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:02 pm

MACCA wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:02 am
Easiest and most fair way to do it would offer 80% of the self employed Net from the last set of accounts.

Therefore anyone "fiddling" or who had doing mostly "cash" jobs would only get a % of the declared funds, so have only been effecting themselves.

Those who have done everything by the book, get the same benefits as everyone else.

I'm yet to hear or see a tradesmen, self employed or business owner etc say they want to carry on making money or profits at their previous rate.
Most I speak to are quite happy having enough just to get by, feed their families, pay the bills and make sure the business is still there at the other side if this.

I certainly dont want any more than the minimum needed to come out at the other side still with a job.

100% agree with all of that.

I'm self employed.......

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:37 pm

expoultryboy wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:00 pm
Macca : that's what I put in my post yesterday .

Well I'm sure if a couple of northern dimwits

can come up with that, im sure the clever blokes running the country can think of something similar..... hopefully

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:57 pm

There's a word in your post that isn't applicable and it's not 'dimwits'.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:44 pm

Billy Balfour wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:57 pm
There's a word in your post that isn't applicable and it's not 'dimwits'.

That's a matter of opinion, if you'd like to share it I can comment or respond accordingly

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:49 pm

MACCA wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:44 pm
That's a matter of opinion, if you'd like to share it I can comment or respond accordingly

The word was 'clever'. HTH.