Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

[dsr]

As I say, they seem to be progressing pretty quickly. Just assuming they'll be slower doesn't seem to be much of an argument. Plus, that isn't the reason the UK gave, it seemed to be an ideological decision from the only response they've given.

I'm suggesting that the big customer may be buying from established ventilator makers. If we had a choice I think most would prefer that route rather than hoping a proposed design passes the tests.

I don't know either way whether we'd be better in or out of the Joint Procurement Scheme but I'd like the decision to be based on something other than "we're not in the EU".

At risk of putting a nationalistic, self-interested slant on it, the UK appears to have found a source for 10,000 ventilators. If we had been in this EU procurement scheme, would we have got more?

[aggi]

At risk of putting a nationalistic, self-interested slant on it, the UK appears to have found a source for 10,000 ventilators. If we had been in this EU procurement scheme, would we have got more?

I've no idea (and obviously there are some caveats with this source for 10,000 ventilators in that they haven't been approved, last week it was G-Tech who had invented a new ventilator for instance https://www.gtech.co.uk/ventilators , and there are quite a few concerns whether they'll be delivered in time).

If we didn't take part because we have already sourced ventilators, PPE, etc and will be getting them quicker than the EU procurement scheme then great. If we didn't take part because we don't want to take part in EU stuff (which seems a bit more the case with the spokesman's "We're not in the EU") then not great.

[aggi]

Government apparently didn’t turn down the EU deal they didn’t get told about it, didn’t get the mail, but can join at a later date if needed.

Given that it's hardly a new scheme (we used to be a part of it) that would be grossly negligent of the UK if we would have been interested but didn't enquire.

EDIT: I've seen the latest story on it https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ilator-row It seems a pretty feeble excuse given the previous comments from the government.

[Oshkoshclaret]

God help us if social media had been around when the big defence contracts were being handed out in World War II

[Sutton-Claret]

One of our neighbours was taken to hospital in the night with suspected Covid. I hear he's been put on one of the new Dyson ventilators and is now picking up nicely....

[Bordeauxclaret]

Too soon?

[IanMcL]

One of our neighbours was taken to hospital in the night with suspected Covid. I hear he's been put on one of the new Dyson ventilators and is now picking up nicely....

Turned out to be fluffy throat?

[Claret]

One of our neighbours was taken to hospital in the night with suspected Covid. I hear he's been put on one of the new Dyson ventilators and is now picking up nicely....

They’ll just collect dust once the pandemic’s over

[Bordeauxclaret]

https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/18 ... tive-says/

Be very odd if this was true.

[Paul Waine]

Too soon?

We need all the hand dryers we can dip our hands into.

[CombatClaret]

Govt has also contacted JCB about making ventilators.

Cronyism at it's finest.

[Devils_Advocate]

Seen in the news that Germany are sending us 60 ventilators and the US have stated we have asked for around 200 from them.

Reminded me of this thread and wondered if anyone had heard what the progress is on the contract Dyson apparently have in place with the govt to provide 10,000 ventilators?

[tim_noone]

Believe me it’s rife across the country - more subtle than brown paper bags these days but nonetheless still very prevalent....and that includes the local councils round these parts who have been in the back pockets of a certain local developer for many years now.

If by these parts you mean Burnley and Pendle... it's an historic thing....going back years.

[Burnley Ace]

On this chat, it's interesting that the UK turned down the offer to be part of the EU joint procurement scheme (and possibly explains why we're looking at left-field options such as a company with no history of making medical equipment getting a major contract).

I've no idea as to whether this was a strategic or ideological decision as the government seem to be keeping schtum about it.

Why would we want to be at the back of the queue of 27 countries, all arguing about who gets priority, when we could be at the front of the queue of one, using British manufacturing to produce equipment that pass our tests?

What was the advantage of being part of the EU procurement process? We could get it cheaper?

[IanMcL]

HOW MANY HAS DYSON MADE SO FAR?

NONE

....................
None of the new mechanical ventilators developed for treating coronavirus patients has obtained UK regulatory approval, a month after the government issued a rallying cry for British industry to help plug a shortage of the devices.

Officials have given conditional commitments to purchase tens of thousands of the life-saving machines which assist patients with respiratory difficulties, subject to safety tests. 

In addition to imports and established medical device makers increasing domestic production, big-name UK engineering companies are finalising ventilators designed from scratch and modifying existing products. 

However, the new models — which include one by Dyson — have yet to receive the green light from the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), according to a government official. 

Among equipment awaiting clearance is a tweaked version of a machine already manufactured domestically by Penlon in Oxfordshire, which is in the final clinical stages, according to people aware of the matter. 

The Cabinet Office confirmed at the weekend that it had withdrawn support for a ventilator under development by a collaboration of Formula 1 teams, called BlueSky, “following a reassessment of the product’s viability in light of the ever developing picture around what is needed to most effectively treat Covid-19”. In a letter of intent, the government had provisionally ordered thousands of machines from BlueSky. 

“We are continuing to work at unprecedented speed with a number of other manufacturers to scale up UK production of ventilators,” it added.

The delays appear to be linked in part to the changing clinical understanding of how to best treat the disease amid disagreements within the medical profession about when to deploy invasive ventilation for coronavirus patients. 

Penlon workers assemble ventilators at its factory in Oxfordshire © UK Cabinet Office/Reuters

In a sign of the fluidity of the discussion surrounding the ventilator production, the Department of Health on Monday posted an announcement notifying potential manufacturers that it was “currently updating” the specification for the Rapidly Manufactured Ventilator System scheme.

“Until the new specification is available you should continue to follow the guidance in this document but be aware of changes to follow,” the notice added.

Government sources said officials would further narrow down the shortlist of potential manufacturers on Tuesday in light of the new guidance.

A government spokesperson said: “Designing and manufacturing a ventilator from scratch usually takes years, but in the four weeks since Ventilator Challenge was launched, we have made rapid progress, with new designs currently being tested by clinicians to ensure they meet the necessary standards for patient safety and effectiveness of treatment.”

Yet the delay also casts doubt on the preparedness of the National Health Service to cope with the peak of cases and follows criticism over a lack of personal protective equipment, such as gloves and masks, for frontline staff. 

Health secretary Matt Hancock told the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show earlier this month that 18,000 ventilators would be needed in the coming weeks, down from an original target of 30,000. 

The NHS now has access to 10,120, including 200 it acquired last week and up from 8,175 in mid-March. Germany is donating 60 ventilators and US president Donald Trump has said the British government asked Washington for 200. 

RecommendedVentilators/UK industry: command performance

One Whitehall official insisted there was adequate intensive care capacity. “There is early evidence of ICU admissions levelling off. We have plenty of ventilator beds across the country so there is confidence that we can meet demand,” they added.

Alison Pittard, the dean of the Faculty of Intensive Care Medicine, which represents intensive care professionals, confirmed that the medical profession had initially requested that UK industry focus on making simpler ventilators for the early-stage treatment of Covid-19 patients. 

The decision was taken after patients in Italy were not found to need highly specialised ventilators in the early stages of their condition, and in recognition of the fact that non-specialist manufacturers would not be able to make high-specification machines at speed.

“It was decided that patients in early stages would go on to simple ventilators, and if they needed to go on for a prolonged period, they would be switched up to another [more sophisticated] device,” she said.

One senior intensive care doctor warned that a fixation on ventilator numbers was not helpful, however. “In terms of providing intensive care beds, it's not just ventilators,” they said. “You need more equipment, hemofiltration machines, [and] staff as well.”

Copyright The Financial Times Limited .

[dsr]

HOW MANY HAS DYSON MADE SO FAR?

However, the new models — which include one by Dyson — have yet to receive the green light from the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), according to a government official. 

Among equipment awaiting clearance is a tweaked version of a machine already manufactured domestically by Penlon in Oxfordshire, which is in the final clinical stages, according to people aware of the matter. 

The Cabinet Office confirmed at the weekend that it had withdrawn support for a ventilator under development by a collaboration of Formula 1 teams, called BlueSky, “following a reassessment of the product’s viability in light of the ever developing picture around what is needed to most effectively treat Covid-19”. In a letter of intent, the government had provisionally ordered thousands of machines from BlueSky. 

“We are continuing to work at unprecedented speed with a number of other manufacturers to scale up UK production of ventilators,” it added.

The delays appear to be linked in part to the changing clinical understanding of how to best treat the disease amid disagreements within the medical profession about when to deploy invasive ventilation for coronavirus patients. 

Penlon workers assemble ventilators at its factory in Oxfordshire © UK Cabinet Office/Reuters

In a sign of the fluidity of the discussion surrounding the ventilator production, the Department of Health on Monday posted an announcement notifying potential manufacturers that it was “currently updating” the specification for the Rapidly Manufactured Ventilator System scheme.

“Until the new specification is available you should continue to follow the guidance in this document but be aware of changes to follow,” the notice added.

Government sources said officials would further narrow down the shortlist of potential manufacturers on Tuesday in light of the new guidance.

So the Dept of Health has changed the spec that existed four weeks ago, and told the manufacturers that they will shortly be changing it again but they don't know what to? Doesn't make it easy, does it.

[aggi]

Why would we want to be at the back of the queue of 27 countries, all arguing about who gets priority, when we could be at the front of the queue of one, using British manufacturing to produce equipment that pass our tests?

What was the advantage of being part of the EU procurement process? We could get it cheaper?

At the moment it seems they're doing better at obtaining PPE than the UK. I don't think your "front of the queue of one" description is particularly accurate unless you think that we are buying everything solely from the UK. The argument is that with more buying power you're more likely to get nearer the front of that queue.

Although my point was more about the obfuscation of the reason why we didn't join. It still seems somewhat opaque.

[Burnley Ace]

At the moment it seems they're doing better at obtaining PPE than the UK. I don't think your "front of the queue of one" description is particularly accurate unless you think that we are buying everything solely from the UK. The argument is that with more buying power you're more likely to get nearer the front of that queue.

Although my point was more about the obfuscation of the reason why we didn't join. It still seems somewhat opaque.

Are they doing better? Are there any published figures showing the demand of each country and how they are being apportioned? If we have the manufacturing capacity in the UK we get the first 10,000 built, if we are buying with the EU we don’t. Who decides how the EU equipment is shared out?

[Devils_Advocate]

So the Dept of Health has changed the spec that existed four weeks ago, and told the manufacturers that they will shortly be changing it again but they don't know what to? Doesn't make it easy, does it.

You've just read it how you want it to sound in your head

The article states the Dept for Health has posted that it going to update the specification but “Until the new specification is available you should continue to follow the guidance in this document but be aware of changes to follow,”

With regards to Dyson this should not have impacted their work and the fact they want them to carry on as normal suggests a tweak rather than a large change

A lot of the article is on Blue Sky who is not the subject of the original thread. Again it more sounds like they were making a more simplistic design which was probably intended to be ready quick but now it has dragged on their type of ventilator is nothing like we need so they are not needed. Is that the fault of the govt for bad planning, the fault of Blue Sky for not being able to produce fast enough or some other factor we just dont know

Could we have done any better with some of the other companies claiming to be able to support or as part of the EU procurement process I very much doubt it and will Dyson come up with the goods well quite possibly

What this has shown me is the people who challenge and question things and dont just wave the Tory pom poms and cheer (like some did) is needed and an important part of holding the govt to account and keep the pressure on so they are on top of absolutely everything. More to the point it is sad that this kind of challenge is dismissed as cheap political point scoring and not as an integral part of politics itself

Time will tell whether the decisions made by the govt were the right ones and whether they were even made for the right reasons. It still however doesn't feel right to me that these type of contracts always seem to find their way to compny's like Dyson who are supporters and backers of the govt that benefit from this govts policies. As has already been pointed out before it stinks of cronyism a smell that is all to familiar with the Torys im afraid

Final thought is just I hope we get the equipment we need quickly enough whoever it ends up coming from

[steve1264b]

A close friend of mine works for large international company, a household name. They won a 2.5 million pound contract for providing a product for these machines. The delivery date was 6 weeks, that was a week ago. These are not hitting the wards when we need them.

[IanMcL]

So the Dept of Health has changed the spec that existed four weeks ago, and told the manufacturers that they will shortly be changing it again but they don't know what to? Doesn't make it easy, does it.

Doesn't say much for the Government or Mr Hancock, who will just say, "We are listening to the science experts".

That, in these instances, is just hiding.

If the original spec produced a working ventilator and we have that need, then that is what should ge produced.

Like Mr Dyson's vacuum cleaner, they upgrade over time.

[aggi]

Are they doing better? Are there any published figures showing the demand of each country and how they are being apportioned? If we have the manufacturing capacity in the UK we get the first 10,000 built, if we are buying with the EU we don’t. Who decides how the EU equipment is shared out?

On the ventilators it sounds like most countries are doing badly. On the "new manufacturers" that we're engaging with it sounds like it will be quite some time, if ever, before the new designs are approved.

Again, my concern was that it wasn't clear whether it was for logistical or ideological reasons that we weren't a part of it. Initial responses made it sound ideological. Current responses seem to vary between evasion and incompetence so who knows.

[Burnley Ace]

If the original spec produced a working ventilator and we have that need, then that is what should ge produced.

Like Mr Dyson's vacuum cleaner, they upgrade over time.

Isn’t this the problem- whilst the original spec may have produced a working ventilator they weren’t sufficient for the problem and needed “an upgrade”.

Similarly with some PPE - there is a call from some to just buy anything available but some of it isn’t fit for purpose.

[Burnley Ace]

Well the EU procurement scheme has already signed deals for PPE so they seem to be moving at a decent pace. Which customer would you expect to get priority, the big one or the little one?

Who are these deals signed with? I would expect that the UK government would get priority from UK business, and UK business should be expected to meet UK demand before exporting any PPE.

The needs of one country is smaller than the needs of one group needing to meet the demands of 28+ countries.

[Devils_Advocate]

Isn’t this the problem- whilst the original spec may have produced a working ventilator they weren’t

Thats one possibility. The other is they were never going to be fit for purpose and it was govt incompetency to give their pals a lucrative order to make cheap basic ventilators.

A cynical albeit unsubstantiated view is that If you were attempting to make ventilators it means you can get your factories determined as ‘essential’ and all your production can continue as normal which would be a right result for Dyson



At this stage their is not enough clarity or info to honestly know where (if any) the fault lies but there was plenty of options open to the govt but again they seemed to land on the one where there is a bit of a conflict of interests and thats enough to make me doubt the govt on this

[aggi]

Who are these deals signed with? I would expect that the UK government would get priority from UK business, and UK business should be expected to meet UK demand before exporting any PPE.

The needs of one country is smaller than the needs of one group needing to meet the demands of 28+ countries.

A lot appear to be with China and the like. Countries that have the manufacturing ability to produce huge volumes of low cost items.

[Burnley Ace]

Thats one possibility. The other is they were never going to be fit for purpose and it was govt incompetency to give their pals a lucrative order to make cheap basic ventilators.

A cynical albeit unsubstantiated view is that If you were attempting to make ventilators it means you can get your factories determined as ‘essential’ and all your production can continue as normal which would be a right result for Dyson



At this stage their is not enough clarity or info to honestly know where (if any) the fault lies but there was plenty of options open to the govt but again they seemed to land on the one where there is a bit of a conflict of interests and thats enough to make me doubt the govt on this

Hancock has been told what to order, he’s not just plucked a make and model out of thin air.

A cynical view would be that the Tories give out orders to their “friends” to stockpile unnecessary equipment. Just imagine the outcry, from their political opponents, if it had come to light last year that the Tories had been ordering millions of pounds worth of safety equipment (from their friends) just in case their is a global pandemic and this equipment was just sitting in a warehouse owned by their friends.

Do Labour not have any supporters that run a manufacturing business or is everyone in business a friend of the Tories?

[Devils_Advocate]

Hancock has been told what to order, he’s not just plucked a make and model out of thin air.

A cynical view would be that the Tories give out orders to their “friends” to stockpile unnecessary equipment. Just imagine the outcry, from their political opponents, if it had come to light last year that the Tories had been ordering millions of pounds worth of safety equipment (from their friends) just in case their is a global pandemic and this equipment was just sitting in a warehouse owned by their friends.

Do Labour not have any supporters that run a manufacturing business or is everyone in business a friend of the Tories?

Told by whom, Mr Dyson??? The govt make the decisions and they take the credit for the good ones and are accountable for the bad ones. (just to add Ive admitted we dont know for certain yet but just that it stinks and doesnt look good at the moment)

Yep Labour will have their own problems around this and when in power rightly get scrutinised and hammered when they show any corruption. Its the Tory's in power though and they have been in power for sometime and cronyism and conflict of interests unfortunately is not something new for them

[dsr]

Hancock has been told what to order, he’s not just plucked a make and model out of thin air.

A cynical view would be that the Tories give out orders to their “friends” to stockpile unnecessary equipment. Just imagine the outcry, from their political opponents, if it had come to light last year that the Tories had been ordering millions of pounds worth of safety equipment (from their friends) just in case their is a global pandemic and this equipment was just sitting in a warehouse owned by their friends.

Do Labour not have any supporters that run a manufacturing business or is everyone in business a friend of the Tories?

You would think that manufacturers of medical equipment would be more likely to be friends of Labour, considering how often we are told that Labour spends vast sums that the Tories don't on NHS expenses generally.

[IanMcL]

Isn’t this the problem- whilst the original spec may have produced a working ventilator they weren’t sufficient for the problem and needed “an upgrade”.

Similarly with some PPE - there is a call from some to just buy anything available but some of it isn’t fit for purpose.

I think I would rather have a ventilator that has been deemed ok, up to now, rather than nothing at sll.

Start with a working Vauxhall and work up to a Rolls Royce!

[Paul Waine]

I think I would rather have a ventilator that has been deemed ok, up to now, rather than nothing at sll.

Start with a working Vauxhall and work up to a Rolls Royce!

Hmm, that may be Ian, but if I'm stuck 40cm in mud, metaphorically speaking, I'd want a tractor to pull me out, not a Rolls Royce or a Vauxhall Viva. And, if I need assistance with breathing to assist my recovery from a new virus, I'm sure most of us would chose something that will work over something that isn't suitable.

Maybe, just maybe, as the medical profession learns about covid-19, it is also revising the recommendations on the treatment for this disease, including what equipment is helpful in the treatment and what equipment isn't. However, maybe in the initial stages it is just a mad rush to get something done, anything done and then revise and learn later.

[Paul Waine]

You've just read it how you want it to sound in your head

The article states the Dept for Health has posted that it going to update the specification but “Until the new specification is available you should continue to follow the guidance in this document but be aware of changes to follow,”

With regards to Dyson this should not have impacted their work and the fact they want them to carry on as normal suggests a tweak rather than a large change

A lot of the article is on Blue Sky who is not the subject of the original thread. Again it more sounds like they were making a more simplistic design which was probably intended to be ready quick but now it has dragged on their type of ventilator is nothing like we need so they are not needed. Is that the fault of the govt for bad planning, the fault of Blue Sky for not being able to produce fast enough or some other factor we just dont know

Could we have done any better with some of the other companies claiming to be able to support or as part of the EU procurement process I very much doubt it and will Dyson come up with the goods well quite possibly

What this has shown me is the people who challenge and question things and dont just wave the Tory pom poms and cheer (like some did) is needed and an important part of holding the govt to account and keep the pressure on so they are on top of absolutely everything. More to the point it is sad that this kind of challenge is dismissed as cheap political point scoring and not as an integral part of politics itself

Time will tell whether the decisions made by the govt were the right ones and whether they were even made for the right reasons. It still however doesn't feel right to me that these type of contracts always seem to find their way to compny's like Dyson who are supporters and backers of the govt that benefit from this govts policies. As has already been pointed out before it stinks of cronyism a smell that is all to familiar with the Torys im afraid

Final thought is just I hope we get the equipment we need quickly enough whoever it ends up coming from

DA, you spoil a good post by your conclusion that if a "Tory gov't wants to spend money it will always spend that money with their friends."

[RingoMcCartney]

I wonder if companies in the private sector in Germany, South Korea and Taiwan have helped their respective health services?

[IanMcL]

'However, maybe in the initial stages it is just a mad rush to get something done, anything done and then revise and learn later.'

That's all I am saying Paul. Better something to help me breathe now, rather than a promise for the future.

[Paul Waine]

Coronavirus ventilators: at least 10 designs waiting for approval

Sean O’Neill, Chief Reporter
Wednesday April 15 2020, 12.00am, The Times

Regulators have yet to approve any new intensive care ventilators despite industry putting forward a range of designs in response to the government’s call for a national effort against the coronavirus.

The Times understands that at least ten ventilators are at an advanced design stage and under review by the medical regulator. One components supplier said he had firm orders to provide parts for the manufacture of more than 50,000 ventilators.

An explanation for some of the hold-ups lies in changing specifications for the new machines as doctors gain a better understanding of how Covid-19 affects the lungs.

The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) is expected to license one device — a modification of an existing intensive care ventilator — this week. The machine, made by Penlon in collaboration with the VentilatorChallengeUK consortium, is being trialled in hospitals.
Other new ventilators, however, will not be available until the peak of the outbreak is expected to have passed.

One medical supplies company said it had received orders to provide parts for tens of thousands of ventilators in addition to supplying components for the NHS’s existing stock. “We are at full stretch at the moment . . . we have tripled our workforce,” a supplier said. “My order book is full supplying the NHS and the new consortia that are making ventilators. The fact they are placing firm orders and in some cases paying up front suggests they believe that they will get MHRA approval and get it soon. Everyone in medical devices is in the same situation. We’re really pushed but we’re responding.”

The Cabinet Office, led by Michael Gove, is co-ordinating the ventilator effort and said that it was in discussions with manufacturers and suppliers.

Officials said the new ventilators had to be tailored to remove fluids from lungs more frequently than machines used in other respiratory illnesses. This guidance meant that one design put forward by the Renault and Red Bull Formula One teams had to be ruled out.

The consortium making the Penlon device includes Airbus, Dell, Ford, Meggitt, Rolls-Royce and other leading companies. It has already scaled up production of the ParaPAC portable ventilator used by ambulance crews.

Other designs under advanced consideration include a device from Dyson, which is working with JCB, and which has prepared a new production line in Wiltshire. The entrepreneur Sir James Dyson aims to make 15,000 ventilators for the NHS and the global effort against the virus.

The defence industry giant Babcock has worked with a medical manufacturer to produce a design and is waiting for approval from the MHRA. Jon Hall, Babcock’s managing director for technology, said: “Combining our engineering expertise with advances in medical technology has resulted in a solution that will help the NHS save lives.”

Also in the queue for approval are devices made by Smith & Nephew, which is poised to manufacture thousands in Hull, and Plexus, which has sites in Kelso in the Scottish Borders and Livingston, West Lothian. Sagentia, based in Cambridge, is also at an advanced stage with its ventilator bid.
The MHRA has approved a number of oxygen support devices for use outside intensive care, including one put forward by the Mercedes F1 team.

A Cabinet Office spokesman said: “The ventilator challenge is delivering the prime minister’s vision to manufacture safe, easy-to-use and effective ventilators in the fight against Covid-19.

“We have put clinicians at the forefront of this process, and are continually reviewing the clinical evidence to ensure we are providing the NHS with the tools it needs. The government has always maintained all devices are subject to rigorous standards set out by the MHRA, including clinical trials in hospitals.”

[Paul Waine]

'However, maybe in the initial stages it is just a mad rush to get something done, anything done and then revise and learn later.'

That's all I am saying Paul. Better something to help me breathe now, rather than a promise for the future.

Hi Ian, assuming The Times report is accurate, it appears that ventilators to treat patients with covid-19 need to do something that existing ventilators don't do. Maybe this is what medical science is learning as they try to save the lives of patients requiring ventilation. So, maybe "rushing these things too quickly" wouldn't do anyone any good.

"Officials said the new ventilators had to be tailored to remove fluids from lungs more frequently than machines used in other respiratory illnesses."

If this is the reason for modifications to specifications and one or two potential suppliers failing to obtain regulatory approval, then this is what is should be.

[aggi]

Hi Ian, assuming The Times report is accurate, it appears that ventilators to treat patients with covid-19 need to do something that existing ventilators don't do. Maybe this is what medical science is learning as they try to save the lives of patients requiring ventilation. So, maybe "rushing these things too quickly" wouldn't do anyone any good.

"Officials said the new ventilators had to be tailored to remove fluids from lungs more frequently than machines used in other respiratory illnesses."

If this is the reason for modifications to specifications and one or two potential suppliers failing to obtain regulatory approval, then this is what is should be.

From what I've seen elsewhere this is something that existing ventilators do do. However, the plan was to make these new ventilators less complex and hence more easy to manufacture so it may have been sacrificed from those specs.

[Paul Waine]

From what I've seen elsewhere this is something that existing ventilators do do. However, the plan was to make these new ventilators less complex and hence more easy to manufacture so it may have been sacrificed from those specs.

Hi aggi, have you a source? Doing something more frequently doesn't suggest to me that the new ventilators would be less complex. Not sure what you mean by "sacrificed from those specs."

[Devils_Advocate]

Hi Ian, assuming The Times report is accurate, it appears that ventilators to treat patients with covid-19 need to do something that existing ventilators don't do. Maybe this is what medical science is learning as they try to save the lives of patients requiring ventilation. So, maybe "rushing these things too quickly" wouldn't do anyone any good.

"Officials said the new ventilators had to be tailored to remove fluids from lungs more frequently than machines used in other respiratory illnesses."

If this is the reason for modifications to specifications and one or two potential suppliers failing to obtain regulatory approval, then this is what is should be.

According to the the dean of the professional body for intensive care practitioners medical experts advised the govt 4 weeks ago that the ventilators they were looking to get manufactured would be no use for Covid-19 patients

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1250 ... 71681.html

https://www.ft.com/content/365529f8-bff ... eedff0cfbb

[IanMcL]

A f*** up of huge proportions, leading to death.

[Paul Waine]

According to the the dean of the professional body for intensive care practitioners medical experts advised the govt 4 weeks ago that the ventilators they were looking to get manufactured would be no use for Covid-19 patients

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1250 ... 71681.html

https://www.ft.com/content/365529f8-bff ... eedff0cfbb

So, DA, are you saying this is the reason why the specification for the ventilators have been changed. Are the ventilators that are in the process of getting approval (I think The Times said one manufacturing group has now got approval) the ones that the "dean of the professional body for intensive care practitioners medical experts" are advising are required? Good news, I think, if we are getting the machines we need. Would you agree?

[Devils_Advocate]

So, DA, are you saying this is the reason why the specification for the ventilators have been changed. Are the ventilators that are in the process of getting approval (I think The Times said one manufacturing group has now got approval) the ones that the "dean of the professional body for intensive care practitioners medical experts" are advising are required? Good news, I think, if we are getting the machines we need. Would you agree?

Yes its good news if we start to get the ones we need. Its not so good news that the Govt ignored the experts and have wasted 4 weeks in the middle of a pandemic crisis asking for ventilators that are useless for Covid 19 patients

Im sure we must be able to agree on that at the very least?

[Paul Waine]

Yes its good news if we start to get the ones we need. Its not so good news that the Govt ignored the experts and have wasted 4 weeks in the middle of a pandemic crisis asking for ventilators that are useless for Covid 19 patients

Im sure we must be able to agree on that at the very least?

How long have there been experts who already knew how to treat covid-19 patients with a new design of ventilator? Are we talking Jan? Feb? March? How would anyone know in Jan, China hadn't admitted that they had covid-19 at that time? So, are we saying UK experts knew that new design of ventilators were required in Feb? or was this some time in March?

When was it that the gov't started speaking about the need for more ventilators? Was that before of after the 23 March "lock down?" (I lose track). If before then, why were the media not asking the gov't about new ventilators, rather than, as they seemed to be, asking why did Germany have more of the old style ventilators than the UK did?

When did you first know about new style ventilators? I can't find any mention of this when this "Dyson" thread got started, can you?

So, can you prove that UK gov't has been "ignoring the [ventilator] experts" for 4 weeks or is this just your interpretation of what must have occurred because you can't think that it may be some other way?

[mdd2]

A f*** up of huge proportions, leading to death.

Given that we have not as yet apparently been in a situation where we had no ventilators (today apparently there are/were 2000 empty ITU beds)
I am not sure that statement is correct.

[keith1879]

How long have there been experts who already knew how to treat covid-19 patients with a new design of ventilator? Are we talking Jan? Feb? March? How would anyone know in Jan, China hadn't admitted that they had covid-19 at that time?

Can I just point out that China had shared information about Covid19 during the first half of January. Not sure how it contributes to this discussion but at least it's accurate information. https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/novel-cor ... round-2019

[Devils_Advocate]

How long have there been experts who already knew how to treat covid-19 patients with a new design of ventilator? Are we talking Jan? Feb? March? How would anyone know in Jan, China hadn't admitted that they had covid-19 at that time? So, are we saying UK experts knew that new design of ventilators were required in Feb? or was this some time in March?

When was it that the gov't started speaking about the need for more ventilators? Was that before of after the 23 March "lock down?" (I lose track). If before then, why were the media not asking the gov't about new ventilators, rather than, as they seemed to be, asking why did Germany have more of the old style ventilators than the UK did?

When did you first know about new style ventilators? I can't find any mention of this when this "Dyson" thread got started, can you?

So, can you prove that UK gov't has been "ignoring the [ventilator] experts" for 4 weeks or is this just your interpretation of what must have occurred because you can't think that it may be some other way?

Before this thread started and before Dyson were shouting about what they had agreed with the govt.

Dont be so disingenuous and trying over complicate the issue to deflect cos its quite simple

At least 4 weeks ago the govt asked for some British company's to help them deliver much needed ventilators to help support Covid 19 patients

The specifications they required and provided to the manufacturers were very basic and their experts told them this and advised that the ventilators would be no use

The ventilators made to that spec were proved to be of no use and we wasted 4 weeks before the govt for whatever reason finally followed the experts advice

There's lots of other stuff could be debated and disagreed on but the simple points above are basic errors. You've proved on this forum your an intelligent and bright individual so you are only showing up your integrity when you are not able to criticise or at the very least just not defend your side of the political debate

Try and spin it as much as you like but you are well into peak DSR territory on this discussion at the moment

[keith1879]

Given that we have not as yet apparently been in a situation where we had no ventilators (today apparently there are/were 2000 empty ITU beds)
I am not sure that statement is correct.

I'm inclined to agree. Apparently one of the new designs is on the verge of going into production...https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -regulator

[IanMcL]

Given that we have not as yet apparently been in a situation where we had no ventilators (today apparently there are/were 2000 empty ITU beds)
I am not sure that statement is correct.

Well either the ventilators made to the old spec are no up to the Covid job or we could have been making ventilators before now.

Can't have it both ways.

[Paul Waine]

Before this thread started and before Dyson were shouting about what they had agreed with the govt.

Dont be so disingenuous and trying over complicate the issue to deflect cos its quite simple

At least 4 weeks ago the govt asked for some British company's to help them deliver much needed ventilators to help support Covid 19 patients

The specifications they required and provided to the manufacturers were very basic and their experts told them this and advised that the ventilators would be no use

The ventilators made to that spec were proved to be of no use and we wasted 4 weeks before the govt for whatever reason finally followed the experts advice

There's lots of other stuff could be debated and disagreed on but the simple points above are basic errors. You've proved on this forum your an intelligent and bright individual so you are only showing up your integrity when you are not able to criticise or at the very least just not defend your side of the political debate

Try and spin it as much as you like but you are well into peak DSR territory on this discussion at the moment

We know what the gov't was doing, it was covered in the daily press conferences etc etc. Where is the evidence that "ventilator experts" were telling the gov't that the NHS specification for ventilators was inadequate for the treatment of covid-19 patients? Where is the commentary that German ventilators were of a different specification than UK ventilators? Where is the evidence that the EU's procurement of ventilators was of a different specification than the spec originally issued by UK gov't? Where, for that matter is the article in the Lancet describing the requirement for a different spec for ventilator? or, mention by the Lancet editor, is his name Horton, when he's been on QT or other media interviews?

I'm not looking for spin, I'm not trying to spin. I'm looking for collaboration of the claim that the "ventilator experts" have been telling the UK gov't for the past several weeks that they've ordered the wrong spec and the UK gov't was ignoring them. That's what you've claimed, that's what you are saying is "wasted 4 weeks." Where is your evidence?

[Devils_Advocate]

We know what the gov't was doing, it was covered in the daily press conferences etc etc.

Yep and this was one prophetic response to it on the 16th March

https://twitter.com/AVO8OHM/status/1239521863619018752

Where is the evidence that "ventilator experts" were telling the gov't that the NHS specification for ventilators was inadequate for the treatment of covid-19 patients?

This exactly what Alison Pittard has done and is the basis for the whole article. She is a highly regarded and respected expert in her field and there has been no denial from anyone in the govt around what she has stated

If youre argument is there is no proof apart from her unchallenged word then we're in the realms of Trump territory and fake news. If thats your position then I cannot argue against it I just know how worthless you value senior sources and experts integrity and honesty

Ive no idea what you are going on about Germany and EU procurement towards me for as it has nothing to do with what i've argued. My assertion is simple that the govt went against expert advice for some reason or another and that course of action has proved to be the wrong one