Furloughed Pay

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cl40
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Furloughed Pay

Post by cl40 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:38 pm

Now the government furloughed pay scheme is a god send for millions of workers during this unprecedented pandemic but long term I think we’ll be paying the bill for this for the rest of our working lives! 25% & 50% tax rates, VAT 25%??

Some firms who may have kept staff on and rode out the storm are now furloughing them and taking advantage of the generous scheme, all of us with be picking up the tab for this.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Granny WeatherWax » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:45 pm

The whole nation needs protecting, I’m happy to pick up the tab for years to come.

Rishi Sunak’s response has been outstanding.
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cl40
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by cl40 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:50 pm

I don’t disagree I just think there should be some future tax on the companies using the grant, seems unfair if some companies don’t use it?

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Granny WeatherWax » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:00 pm

Extremely complex and difficult to suit all.

I get zero benefit from Rishi’s package but happy to help the less fortunate out.
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Bfcboyo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:26 pm

We need to focus on roof over head and food on table for now.

Let's iron out the crap later. Lot of people a lot worse off than us globally.

Our spoilt lives need a wake up call , not like this but some people might stop making problems and worrying about nothing. A reality check.

Already worrying about paying more tax is pathetic.
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:27 pm

Would you be complaining if companies didn't have this option, had to lay off staff, resulting in an increase of numbers for those claiming Universal credit etc?

Then there would be less companies, less money being spent, leading to more companies going bust in the long term...

That's the path to another 'great depression'

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:33 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:27 pm
Would you be complaining if companies didn't have this option, had to lay off staff, resulting in an increase of numbers for those claiming Universal credit etc?

Then there would be less companies, less money being spent, leading to more companies going bust in the long term...

That's the path to another 'great depression'
That's it, it's only supposed to be a short term measure as a better alternative to redundancy/laid off, it's good that the option is available it definitely benefits me & countless others, nobody should be complaining about it, if the money wasn't spent on this it'd be spent on welfare, this way you've got the flexibility of retention & a fixed skilled workforce when all this finish's.
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Bfcboyo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:35 pm

cl40 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:38 pm
Now the government furloughed pay scheme is a god send for millions of workers during this unprecedented pandemic but long term I think we’ll be paying the bill for this for the rest of our working lives! 25% & 50% tax rates, VAT 25%??

Some firms who may have kept staff on and rode out the storm are now furloughing them and taking advantage of the generous scheme, all of us with be picking up the tab for this.
Jobless fisherman makes huge catch on UTC.

cl40
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by cl40 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:36 pm

Don’t get me wrong I welcome the support the alternative doesn’t bear thinking about. It’s just there’s no incentive for business’s to try to ride it out. I know of one company that rode out the financial crises without laying one person off, with this they’ve decided to shut the firm for 2 months to ‘take advantage’ of the government grant. They won’t be paying for this next year, we all will. There should be some sort of future tax for these businesses using the scheme.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:39 pm

cl40 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:36 pm
Don’t get me wrong I welcome the support the alternative doesn’t bear thinking about. It’s just there’s no incentive for business’s to try to ride it out. I know of one company that rode out the financial crises without laying one person off, with this they’ve decided to shut the firm for 2 months to ‘take advantage’ of the government grant. They won’t be paying for this next year, we all will. There should be some sort of future tax for these businesses using the scheme.
Its obvious you don't understand the difference between a financial crisis and a Pandemic.

During the financial crisis businesses were still able to trade/operate as normal.

During a Pandemic massive numbers of businesses are closed, nothing can be shipped unless its essential work.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by cl40 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:43 pm

My point is being missed, some companies are quite able to continue with a bit of cost cutting, short time, instead the easy option is to furlough everyone and let us all pick up the tab.
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cl40
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by cl40 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:47 pm

I’m genuinely not fishing, the scheme is an absolute god send to millions and I applaud the government for introducing it so quickly. I just feel some businesses are taking advantage of it.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by ClaretMov » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:51 pm

Granny WeatherWax wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:45 pm
The whole nation needs protecting, I’m happy to pick up the tab for years to come.

Rishi Sunak’s response has been outstanding.
Well said
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Bfcboyo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:01 pm

cl40 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:47 pm
I’m genuinely not fishing, the scheme is an absolute god send to millions and I applaud the government for introducing it so quickly. I just feel some businesses are taking advantage of it.
Please tell us how there is no bloody portal yet to apply , and no sign of any money for a while . If you no how advantage is being taken please disclose.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by cl40 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:03 pm

I gave an example earlier

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:06 pm

cl40 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:43 pm
My point is being missed, some companies are quite able to continue with a bit of cost cutting, short time, instead the easy option is to furlough everyone and let us all pick up the tab.
A number of companies are trying to continue trading, thus putting their staff at risk when really they should be closed.

Cost cutting usually means cutting jobs, so we go back to my point about people being put onto benefits..

Furlough isn't an easy option, it's a necessity in times like this for many businesses.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by claret2018 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:07 pm

If a business can continue without its staff I would question why it had them in the first place

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by cl40 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:12 pm

This is an open forum for people to discuss topics and opinions, your responses have made me consider mine so fair do’s. I suppose we won’t know the true effects until it’s all over.

Be safe and healthy everyone.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:14 pm

claret2018 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:07 pm
If a business can continue without its staff I would question why it had them in the first place
It's not continuing as such, it's temporarily paused, the place where I worked had no choice the supply chains & customers paused, the order book is full before the virus there couldn't get the parts out of the door fast enough. Nothings stopping full term just pausing.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Bfcboyo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:14 pm

cl40 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:03 pm
I gave an example earlier
Firms would have clearly laid people off verbally or written . They cannot then furlough them after laying them off. How could they take advantage?

Please explain.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by cl40 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:22 pm

It is possible to furlough staff who were laid off before the scheme was announced although these are not the examples I was talking about.

I know of a firm that has shut completely for 2 months to take ‘advantage’ of the government scheme, this firm did not necessarily have to shut down and without the scheme wouldn’t have.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Bfcboyo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:24 pm

cl40 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:22 pm
It is possible to furlough staff who were laid off before the scheme was announced although these are not the examples I was talking about.

I know of a firm that has shut completely for 2 months to take ‘advantage’ of the government scheme, this firm did not necessarily have to shut down and without the scheme wouldn’t have.
They did well. It's only been out a week you clown.

Do they know May's lotto numbers?
Last edited by Bfcboyo on Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:25 pm

cl40 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:22 pm
It is possible to furlough staff who were laid off before the scheme was announced although these are not the examples I was talking about.

I know of a firm that has shut completely for 2 months to take ‘advantage’ of the government scheme, this firm did not necessarily have to shut down and without the scheme wouldn’t have.
You've got to notify & designate the worker furloughed prior whilst in employment.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by cl40 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:31 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:24 pm
They did well. It's only been out a week you clown.

Do they know May's lotto numbers?
This is a discussion, why are you calling me names?

They have made the decision to close the business for 2 months, now if I’m wrong and they can’t put a time on it then fair enough, it’s just what I’ve been told.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by gandhisflipflop » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:31 pm

It clearly states on the BBC website that companies can take advantage of this scheme even if employees have already been laid off, so long as they get them back into the workforce and designate them as a furloughed worker.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Bfcboyo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:35 pm

cl40 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:31 pm
This is a discussion, why are you calling me names?

They have made the decision to close the business for 2 months, now if I’m wrong and they can’t put a time on it then fair enough, it’s just what I’ve been told.
Stress son stress.

Apologies.

Now accept we all are going to work together and pay more taxes if needed.

Millions are about to die possibly.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:36 pm

gandhisflipflop wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:31 pm
It clearly states on the BBC website that companies can take advantage of this scheme even if employees have already been laid off, so long as they get them back into the workforce and designate them as a furloughed worker.
True, but by then if you’ve already decided to go down the laying off the route it’d be highly unlikely you’d rehire the worker to furlough, most places it’s either route & no backtracking it’d just complicate matters.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by cl40 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:41 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:35 pm
Stress son stress.

Apologies.

Now accept we all are going to work together and pay more taxes if needed.

Millions are about to die possibly.
I’ve already stated previously this discussion has made me consider my opinions. I know we’re going to be paying more taxes in the future and am more than happy to do so rather than millions lose theirs jobs, homes and sanity.

My point was there should be some sort of future tax for firms that use it to stop them closing the business when in reality it could stay open.

This is a crap time for most people including myself I really do wish all my fellow clarets well during these bad times.

UTC

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:45 pm

cl40 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:41 pm
I’ve already stated previously this discussion has made me consider my opinions. I know we’re going to be paying more taxes in the future and am more than happy to do so rather than millions lose theirs jobs, homes and sanity.

My point was there should be some sort of future tax for firms that use it to stop them closing the business when in reality it could stay open.

This is a crap time for most people including myself I really do wish all my fellow clarets well during these bad times.

UTC
They can’t stay open if the supply chains stop, unless you want people producing fresh air.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Tall Paul » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:59 pm

cl40 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:22 pm
It is possible to furlough staff who were laid off before the scheme was announced although these are not the examples I was talking about.

I know of a firm that has shut completely for 2 months to take ‘advantage’ of the government scheme, this firm did not necessarily have to shut down and without the scheme wouldn’t have.
What does a company gain from furloughing its workers if it doesn't need to?

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by TVC15 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:03 pm

Tall Paul wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:59 pm
What does a company gain from furloughing its workers if it doesn't need to?
Not saying I agree with any of the above but is not the answer to your question they get 80% of the wage bill paid by the government rather than have to pay this themselves ??

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by gandhisflipflop » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:04 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:36 pm
True, but by then if you’ve already decided to go down the laying off the route it’d be highly unlikely you’d rehire the worker to furlough, most places it’s either route & no backtracking it’d just complicate matters.
It depends on the situation. If they genuinely didn't want to let the employer go in the first place and saw no other alternative at the time, then yes it would make sense for the companies to do this for the staff they have let go. That's what it is for. Employees are being let go temporarily because of work stopping due to the virus. It isn't like they are being let go because of the economy being bad like in 2008.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:12 pm

gandhisflipflop wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:04 pm
It depends on the situation. If they genuinely didn't want to let the employer go in the first place and saw no other alternative at the time, then yes it would make sense for the companies to do this for the staff they have let go. That's what it is for. Employees are being let go temporarily because of work stopping due to the virus. It isn't like they are being let go because of the economy being bad like in 2008.
True, will be odd exceptions here & there I won’t disagree with that, if it’s skilled worker who you didn’t want to lose to a rival competitor, just talking generally before when you’ve already applied for the grant with the numbers, circumstances you’ve mentioned usually arise with a slow build up to a demise, not bang wallop like we’ve got here.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Tall Paul » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:16 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:03 pm
Not saying I agree with any of the above but is not the answer to your question they get 80% of the wage bill paid by the government rather than have to pay this themselves ??
They wouldn't have to pay them, they'd have laid them off.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by duncandisorderly » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:27 pm

By furloughing staff a company still has to pay 20% wages despite not being able to make use of that worker.
The only benefit to furloughing staff is the compromise between paying 100% wages (unfair on employer) or laying staff off (unfair on staff).

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:29 pm

Tall Paul wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:16 pm
They wouldn't have to pay them, they'd have laid them off.
It’s not just that, it’d be devastating for small firms with staff with long service records & apprenticeships, the redundancy packages would be high & the skilled personnel you’d have to let go, it’d be crippling, the bigger firms are more equipped to cushion the blow.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by clansman » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:35 pm

As I understand it the company pays the full wages and then claims back the 80 per cent government grant. Problem with that is that it could be 2-3 months before they get the money. For the construction industry in particular that will lead to business failures. Cash is key and in that industry 3 months draining cash with little or nothing coming in spells disaster.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by TVC15 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:58 pm

Tall Paul wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:16 pm
They wouldn't have to pay them, they'd have laid them off.
In reality what I believe is happening in businesses I am talking to is that they would not have laid workers off this quickly due to the downturn in revenue. A number of businesses would have enough liquidity to get through this period for a while - in the knowledge that at some point business would pick back up.
They may have also gone down the route of giving staff the option of paid leave or unpaid leave...or a 3 day week etc as a temporary measure rather than laying staff off.
The government offer means they don’t have to go down any of these routes at this stage. This is particularly the case for companies with highly skilled staff where recruiting new staff would be very difficult.

It’s not the case for all businesses - especially in lower paid high staff turnover type sectors as these may have laid off lots of their people as they know when business picks up they can recruit staff that are easy to train etc.

I don’t think this is fudging the system btw - they are genuinely losing revenue by having to close their doors and this is helping significantly to cover a big part of their costs

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Wile E Coyote » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:05 pm

Furlough is definately a name that needs dumping from daily speech immediately.
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Bosscat » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:16 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:05 pm
Furlough is definately a name that needs dumping from daily speech immediately.
Definitely ;) needs dumping Wile E :D
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by If it be your will » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:20 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:27 pm
By furloughing staff a company still has to pay 20% wages despite not being able to make use of that worker.
The only benefit to furloughing staff is the compromise between paying 100% wages (unfair on employer) or laying staff off (unfair on staff).
The employer only has to pay the employee 80%, the same as the grant they receive. In the section under 'How much you'll get':

can choose to pay you more than the grant - but they do not have to

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-yo ... ion-scheme
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by ecc » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:38 pm

"We need to focus on roof over head and food on table for now. Let's iron out the crap later."

"Already worrying about paying more tax is pathetic."

Bit harsh that.

The two concerns are not, in my humble opinion, mutually exclusive.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Tricky Trevor » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:30 am

Not a tory fan but the Chancellor has been very impressive so far. Unlike his boss who, as usual, is a total waste of good oxygen.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Top Claret » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:58 am

Tricky Trevor wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:30 am
Not a tory fan but the Chancellor has been very impressive so far. Unlike his boss who, as usual, is a total waste of good oxygen.
Boris is doing a fantastic job, leading from the front and delegating. God help us if this had have been 12 months ago with the dithering dimwit Theresa May at the helm.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Caballo » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:36 am

cl40 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:41 pm

My point was there should be some sort of future tax for firms that use it to stop them closing the business when in reality it could stay open.
Who says there won't be? There are taxes specific to business that are equally likely to go up as taxes on the general public. Can you an give an example of these businesses that could stay open?

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by cl40 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:04 pm

EasyJet has just payed it’s shareholders £174 million in dividends then days later uses the furlough scheme to pay its staff. This is a fine example of companies taking advantage of the government scheme.
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Damo » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:19 pm

I'm classed as a key worker, and I'm currently working more hours than I would normally.
I'd prefer to work and be paid 100% of my wage than be stood down on 80% and I assume lots of people would rather be in my position than being furloughed.
If it means we have to pay a bit more tax to cover it then so be it.
A small price to pay when you consider the alternative

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Greekclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:42 pm

I have been furloughed. I’m on 80%. Still unclear as to what I’ll be receiving. A lot of my wage is made up from overtime pay. Would this be included? I’m not on salary so my wage fluctuates quite dramatically from month to month depending on what overtime hours I put in. Work have said 80% basic pay no OT. Surely it should be 80% of my average wage which includes OT as that’s my wage.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Croydon Claret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:49 pm

My brother in law's firm are insisting on only paying 80% wages despite everybody working effectively from home because of "government rules"

Bunch of chancers just taking advantage and saving 20% on wages

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:22 pm

Croydon Claret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:49 pm
My brother in law's firm are insisting on only paying 80% wages despite everybody working effectively from home because of "government rules"

Bunch of chancers just taking advantage and saving 20% on wages
That sounds "a little odd." I'd have expected if staff are still working, staff still get paid their normal pay. Maybe the firm would otherwise be in difficulties? Maybe the firm has agreed 20% pay reduction for the period...but, I don't think they can do it if the employees haven't agreed to these revised terms.

Just my "ordinary joe" opinion. I'm not a lawyer, never mind an employment lawyer.
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