Furloughed Pay

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groove
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by groove » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:29 pm

Interesting word furlough. Never heard it used before. How is it pronounced, is it furlow or furloff? I'm gonna start using it myself.

thatdberight
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by thatdberight » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:40 pm

groove wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:29 pm
Interesting word furlough. Never heard it used before. How is it pronounced, is it furlow or furloff? I'm gonna start using it myself.
The former

TVC15
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by TVC15 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:40 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:22 pm
That sounds "a little odd." I'd have expected if staff are still working, staff still get paid their normal pay. Maybe the firm would otherwise be in difficulties? Maybe the firm has agreed 20% pay reduction for the period...but, I don't think they can do it if the employees haven't agreed to these revised terms.

Just my "ordinary joe" opinion. I'm not a lawyer, never mind an employment lawyer.
Depends on their staff contracts of course.
But there has been a few firms cutting salaries in last few weeks presumably on the basis of not making redundancies (or limiting them). Pret A Manger were looking to cut hours to 16 a week and wages by 25% according to the news a couple of weeks ago.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Croydon Claret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:15 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:22 pm
That sounds "a little odd." I'd have expected if staff are still working, staff still get paid their normal pay. Maybe the firm would otherwise be in difficulties? Maybe the firm has agreed 20% pay reduction for the period...but, I don't think they can do it if the employees haven't agreed to these revised terms.

Just my "ordinary joe" opinion. I'm not a lawyer, never mind an employment lawyer.
The employees haven't agreed to it. They're all fully operational at home and therefore don't even qualify for furloughed pay as they're not furloughed. He works for a terrible small company who's bosses are taking advantage and seeking to line their own pockets.

I will look on my own employer much more favourably in future as they've been fab since this all kicked off, even down to insisting that I work from home beyond any official lockdown as I'm in a vulnerable group
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by arise_sir_charge » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:31 pm

If you are furloughed you shouldn’t be working at all. The government are paying the 80% not the employer.

As pointed out people can be given reduced hours but this wouldn’t be furlough. It would be reduced hours with no government support for the employer.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Winstonswhite » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:33 pm

Its happened with my company today.

They could definitely have “ridden the storm” but what’s the point when they can lay everyone off and get the government to foot the bill at 80% to us.

Also it’s to a max of 2500 a month so they’re saving on any staff (the vast majority) who are paid £40k+

BTW I’m not grumbling. Just happy to have a job and a company to go back to at the end of all this.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by BurnleyFC » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:34 pm

Winstonswhite wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:33 pm
Its happened with my company today.

They could definitely have “ridden the storm” but what’s the point when they can lay everyone off and get the government to foot the bill at 80% to us.

Also it’s to a max of 2500 a month so they’re saving on any staff (the vast majority) who are paid £40k+

BTW I’m not grumbling. Just happy to have a job and a company to go back to at the end of all this.
Ditto with my company.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by arise_sir_charge » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:41 pm

Why should companies ride the storm if this scheme is available. I wouldn’t expect them to.

The whole premise of it is job retention so that when this passes people can hopefully go back to where they were and whatever plans that business had for the future can continue having not been hammered by something that was totally outside of their control.

It won’t work for every business and simple changes to how we live in the long term, brought about by the changes being made now, may lead to long term issues for some businesses but this is a great way of trying to protect people in unprecedented times.
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:41 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:31 pm
If you are furloughed you shouldn’t be working at all. The government are paying the 80% not the employer.

As pointed out people can be given reduced hours but this wouldn’t be furlough. It would be reduced hours with no government support for the employer.
That’s true it’s a condition set out in the letter & not up for negotiation it’s all agreed before you are granted the leave of absence.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by No Ney Never » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:01 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:22 pm
That sounds "a little odd." I'd have expected if staff are still working, staff still get paid their normal pay. Maybe the firm would otherwise be in difficulties? Maybe the firm has agreed 20% pay reduction for the period...but, I don't think they can do it if the employees haven't agreed to these revised terms.

Just my "ordinary joe" opinion. I'm not a lawyer, never mind an employment lawyer.
Company cannot claim Furlough if employee still working.
Employee must agree to be Furloughed.

BurnleyFC
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by BurnleyFC » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:14 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:41 pm
Why should companies ride the storm if this scheme is available. I wouldn’t expect them to.

The whole premise of it is job retention so that when this passes people can hopefully go back to where they were and whatever plans that business had for the future can continue having not been hammered by something that was totally outside of their control.

It won’t work for every business and simple changes to how we live in the long term, brought about by the changes being made now, may lead to long term issues for some businesses but this is a great way of trying to protect people in unprecedented times.
I know for a fact that some of our furloughed workers won’t be given their jobs back when the scheme ends, it’s simply being used as a sweetener and to clear out some dead wood.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by arise_sir_charge » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:42 pm

Well that’s good news for them then and fortunate this scheme offers them some protection. They could have been out of work at a terrible time to be out of work.

Paul Waine
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:02 pm

No Ney Never wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:01 pm
Company cannot claim Furlough if employee still working.
Employee must agree to be Furloughed.
I agree. My post was comment on an earlier post that said employer was cutting wages on staff wfh.

Tall Paul
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Tall Paul » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:15 pm

Greekclaret wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:42 pm
I have been furloughed. I’m on 80%. Still unclear as to what I’ll be receiving. A lot of my wage is made up from overtime pay. Would this be included? I’m not on salary so my wage fluctuates quite dramatically from month to month depending on what overtime hours I put in. Work have said 80% basic pay no OT. Surely it should be 80% of my average wage which includes OT as that’s my wage.
The HMRC guidance says it should be 80% of your average wage. You need to take it up with your employer.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by tarkys_ears » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:32 am

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:31 pm
If you are furloughed you shouldn’t be working at all. The government are paying the 80% not the employer.

As pointed out people can be given reduced hours but this wouldn’t be furlough. It would be reduced hours with no government support for the employer.
You're more than welcome to take a temp job, say delivering for Tesco or Waitrose.

Enjoy your 150-200% salary whilst you can!

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by taio » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:38 am

Tall Paul wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:15 pm
The HMRC guidance says it should be 80% of your average wage. You need to take it up with your employer.
Pretty sure bonuses, commission or overtime aren't included.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by taio » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:39 am

tarkys_ears wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:32 am
You're more than welcome to take a temp job, say delivering for Tesco or Waitrose.

Enjoy your 150-200% salary whilst you can!
Not straightforward. And could result in a breach of employment contract.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by thatdberight » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:50 am

taio wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:39 am
Not straightforward. And could result in a breach of employment contract.
For some people. But for most, as long as it's not in conflict with the other job, it's not a problem.

The government advice is not clear. It says you can work for another existing employer but is silent on taking another job. Maybe there's a moral argument.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:55 am

thatdberight wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:50 am
For some people. But for most, as long as it's not in conflict with the other job, it's not a problem.

The government advice is not clear. It says you can work for another existing employer but is silent on taking another job. Maybe there's a moral argument.
Employers are actively encouraged to follow the ACAS code of conduct.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by taio » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:58 am

thatdberight wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:50 am
For some people. But for most, as long as it's not in conflict with the other job, it's not a problem.

The government advice is not clear. It says you can work for another existing employer but is silent on taking another job. Maybe there's a moral argument.
As you say it isn't clear. But it's worth highlighting that it could be a problem rather than suggesting it's easy. I've looked at a range of legal advice on behalf of a friend and it pretty much all suggests caution in the context of contractual terms and conditions.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by taio » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:59 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:55 am
Employers are actively encouraged to follow the ACAS code of conduct.
I couldn't see any clarity on this through ACAS.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:02 am

taio wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:59 am
I couldn't see any clarity on this through ACAS.
No but if it results in dismissal you could well do, employment tribunals look out to see if it’s been followed.


http://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/if-t ... -workplace

More clarification.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by taio » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:05 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:02 am
No but if it results in dismissal you could well do, employment tribunals look out to see if it’s been followed.


http://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/if-t ... -workplace

More clarification.
Doesn't help. The government needs to clarify.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:09 am

The government have already consulted with ACAS everything’s there. ACAS haven’t decided this upon themselves.

taio
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by taio » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:13 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:09 am
The government have already consulted with ACAS everything’s there. ACAS haven’t decided this upon themselves.
I must have missed it because I cant see explicit advice from the government or Acas about whether or not people can be paid by another new (not existing) employer. Where is it? So until it's clear it would sensible to get permission from existing employer unless very confident it wouldn't breach contract.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by thatdberight » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:29 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:55 am
Employers are actively encouraged to follow the ACAS code of conduct.
I don't really see any relevance in that to be honest. The ACAS link is equally silent about the precise question being asked and, in any case, some generic advice doesn't override what may be in a specific contract of employment.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:33 am

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/so ... -sick-pay/
These are government endorsed referrals scroll to the bottom you will see the acas link.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by thatdberight » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:41 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:33 am
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/so ... -sick-pay/
These are government endorsed referrals scroll to the bottom you will see the acas link.
I've seen the link. I don't doubt it's from ACAS. But it's silent on the point we're discussing. It doesn't answer the question.

And, to repeat, even if there is a government source that says it's OK to take a second job, that doesn't override all employment law and people would be well-advised to check before taking one. I think, for most people, it's unlikely to be an issue but some contracts bar it.

I think you just like arguing without reading things thoroughly.
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by taio » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:43 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:33 am
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/so ... -sick-pay/
These are government endorsed referrals scroll to the bottom you will see the acas link.
Not clear about a new and additional employer which is the point being discussed

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:48 am

If someone has more than 1 job each job is treated separately you can work for either, it applies to people already with 2 or more jobs, whilst furloughed you cannot accept any other job if your contract states you can’t as you are still legally employed, then states check your existing contract to gain approval. It’s down to the persons employment contract, but 1 thing for certain you cannot carry out any work for the same company the government are paying the 80% to.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by thatdberight » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:08 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:48 am
If someone has more than 1 job each job is treated separately you can work for either, it applies to people already with 2 or more jobs, whilst furloughed you cannot accept any other job if your contract states you can’t as you are still legally employed, then states check your existing contract to gain approval. It’s down to the persons employment contract, but 1 thing for certain you cannot carry out any work for the same company the government are paying the 80% to.
I think we're all in absolute agreement.

If there's a bit in any of those documents that says about, "... then states check your existing contract to gain approval", it would be interesting if you could link that or quote it precisely. I couldn't see that and am interested in it personally. Thanks.

Terry Cochrane
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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Terry Cochrane » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:14 am

There’s some issues about furlough in professional rugby where some clubs have furloughed their players.

These players are training at home so arguably there is a thin dividing line between working and not working for your employer.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Burnley87 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:53 am

I own a company that has 7 pubs and employs 54 people. How would you expect anyone to trade threw this without government help. We are probably going to be the hardest hit out of all of this with the fact we will probably be the last able to reopen.

I think the only way this is going to improve is for people spending when we come out of this and get the wheels moving again. The majority have benefited from the Chancellor so we will all have to contribute to the debts and the recovering of the economy

You say it’s helping business, but realistically without it it’s protecting the employees equally because without it they would be no jobs

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Burnley1989 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:03 am

I do wonder if this will change the way some people act going forward, perhaps some folk that did frequent the pubs may decide they actually don’t mind staying at home and saving money.

I think less companies will travel for meetings, hopefully more people will also look to put an hour to one side to exercise everyday. I’d like to think more manufacturing companies will have a huge push on automation, it was one thing that concerned me when I read on social media some factory workers desperate to sit at home on 80%, business owners might just see automation as a way to keep running should we have this problem in the future.

Of course this could have the opposite effect, time will tell. I’ll probably always frequent my local pubs, I’ve never been a city/town centre drinker and enjoy pub grub and an hour or so on a Friday/Saturday/Sunday.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Tall Paul » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:48 am

taio wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:38 am
Pretty sure bonuses, commission or overtime aren't included.
Bonuses and commission are specifically excluded, but there's no mention of overtime.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by thatdberight » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:24 am

taio wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:43 am
Not clear about a new and additional employer which is the point being discussed
https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/news ... s-answered

"On the question of whether staff can work for another employer, Ranjit Dhindsa, partner and head of employment, pensions, immigration and compliance at Fieldfisher, explained that while workers are furloughed an employment relationship still exists, so staff should not be working for anyone else during those contracted hours."

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/news ... ecruitment
"Denis Lynn, chair of food supplier Finnebrogue Artisan, told Buzzfeed that his company was finding it impossible to hire workers from hospitality businesses, and were therefore facing major staff shortages, because of the rules around the government’s furlough scheme, which stipulate that those temporarily laid off must not work for another employer in the hours they were contracted to work for their original organisation"

A reputable source rather than a direct quote but looks like there may be some complications within the scheme itself - presumably in order to try and stop people people getting "double bubble" through this issue.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by SmudgetheClaret » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:15 am

The Goverment is using its credit card and we will be picking up the payments 8-)

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Murger » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:27 am

Just received an email from my employer about us going on furloughed pay. It says they don't think the government scheme for the government to pick up people's wages will be in place til may. In the meantime, they are struggling to find a revenue stream to pay us. Worrying times.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:27 am

thatdberight wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:08 am
I think we're all in absolute agreement.

If there's a bit in any of those documents that says about, "... then states check your existing contract to gain approval", it would be interesting if you could link that or quote it precisely. I couldn't see that and am interested in it personally. Thanks.
All the necessary information is available if one/you can't be bothered to read it & understand it there's nothing more I can do, I've tried my best to explain what the rules are when furloughed, my last post on this subject it's become too tiresome.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by thatdberight » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:32 am

Murger wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:27 am
Just received an email from my employer about us going on furloughed pay. It says they don't think the government scheme for the government to pick up people's wages will be in place til may. In the meantime, they are struggling to find a revenue stream to pay us. Worrying times.
Yes. Portal not available to even make the claim until end of April so cash flow hit is now for companies.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by thatdberight » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:34 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:27 am
All the necessary information is available if one/you can't be bothered to read it & understand it there's nothing more I can do, I've tried my best to explain what the rules are when furloughed, my last post on this subject it's become too tiresome.
Very helpful as usual.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Tall Paul » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:03 pm

thatdberight wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:32 am
Yes. Portal not available to even make the claim until end of April so cash flow hit is now for companies.
This is what the business interruption loan scheme is intended for. Companies with cashflow difficulties should be speaking to their banks about accessing these loans to cover paying their furloughed staff until the money from the government is available.

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Re: Furloughed Pay

Post by Touchline » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:11 pm

I’m an employer and we are reviewing our position on furloughing at the moment. We have 20+ people.
I can see that some firms can take advantage of the government and ultimately us (future taxpayers) in this situation.Its an excellent scheme introduced for the right reasons at the right time. It’s inevitable that certain people will manipulate it, sadly. I would imagine when the government portal actually opens it will crash immediately with the numbers involved.
We carry out construction consultancy services. New Instructions have stopped and building sites are closing. So, the need for our service is falling away. We have time but it’s an income wedge. Less billings as each month passes. We have fixed office costs and rent of course. Everyone has been WFH for two weeks already.
We know Covid-19 will eventually pass so business continuity is crucial to us and everyone. If we furlough people then we have job retention. They can do no work at all for now,for us or anyone else. So, looking on the bright side you receive 80% salary for staying home. Literally. That’s fine if your salary is 30k but not so fine if it’s 60k. The max the govt pay is £2,500 per month. You can top up though has the employer by 20%. Some of our staff will soon by running at only 20-50% of capacity in income and input terms. Or less. So, we have no choice but to furlough and use other govt initiatives.Vat deferral for example. Otherwise our cash will dry up.
The big issue is that furlough needs staff agreement. Someone on 30k more likely to buy in than the 60k person. Understandable but what do you do then? Cash is still drying up. Overdraft, loan (CBILS loan - useless), HR action - termination of contract, redundancy, less pay less hours etc. Negotiate revised terms. The key is people have to be reasonable,otherwise disputes can arise. So, my point is; it’s a good thing, won’t suit everyone, can be misused/abused and we have to look at other options as well. If someone has been with you for 10 years @ 60k pa and they refuse to be furloughed. And they have no work. Then it’s redundancy which they can challenge and it’s costly. You could of course furlough more cheaper people to subsidise the reluctant but that’s not good for anyone.
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