Boris or Corbyn for our crisis

[AndrewJB]

Yes it could and is likely to become a problem everywhere. I'm saying it's incredible what the NHS and the public bodies have done and continue to do to prepare for that. Substantial initivitaves planned and implemented in days or sometimes hours, which would normally take months.

I don’t think the editor of the Lancet was blaming the NHS for the strategy or absence of equipment. Some of the changes such as making exhibition halls such as Excel into hospitals were already part of long term contingency plans, but in the last two weeks the whole country - including the government - has moved very quickly. I would imagine the inquiry will be looking at the month before the last two weeks.

[taio]

I don’t think the editor of the Lancet was blaming the NHS for the strategy or absence of equipment. Some of the changes such as making exhibition halls such as Excel into hospitals were already part of long term contingency plans, but in the last two weeks the whole country - including the government - has moved very quickly. I would imagine the inquiry will be looking at the month before the last two weeks.

That's balanced. And I'm sure there will naturally and understandably be lessons to be learned as there always are. There's been a lot of criticism about PPE - again understandably because it's very important - but also a lack of appreciation about the mammoth task of distributing tens and tens of millions of kits. The fact that the huge infrastructure of NHS supply chains and the armed forces supporting have found it a challenge should demonstrate that.

[TVC15]

The result hasn't been chaos and panic across the NHS. There are many Trusts that have seen a noticeable drop in demand in the last few weeks - A&E attendances down, emergency admissions down, delayed transfers of care down. The NHS and other government departments have done a great deal to prepare in a very short period of time. Things are about to get really difficult for NHS and other public bodies but they will be ready to respond as best they can - the planning and mobilisation effort has been immense.

When I listen to doctors and nurses who are working day to day in hospitals and in general practice I do not here them saying what you are in terms of being ready to respond and being prepared. My wife is a nurse and every day on the news you are seeing doctors and nurses and the professional bodies that represent them (BMA, RCN, etc) telling you how unprepared they feel and are - whether this be the lack of PPE or the lack of guidance provided by the government.
For example General Practices are now being bombarded with angry patients who after the 1.5m letters went out to the most vulnerable who either want to know why they are on the list and can’t go out or go to work in some cases and then also being rang by people not on the list and think they should. The general practices were receiving lots of abuse in the last couple of days since the letter landed. And do you know what advice / guidance they have had from the government on this ? Zero - not even a copy of the communication sent out....which should have said don’t contact your GP for a start.

[taio]

When I listen to doctors and nurses who are working day to day in hospitals and in general practice I do not here them saying what you are in terms of being ready to respond and being prepared. My wife is a nurse and every day on the news you are seeing doctors and nurses and the professional bodies that represent them (BMA, RCN, etc) telling you how unprepared they feel and are - whether this be the lack of PPE or the lack of guidance provided by the government.
For example General Practices are now being bombarded with angry patients who after the 1.5m letters went out to the most vulnerable who either want to know why they are on the list and can’t go out or go to work in some cases and then also being rang by people not on the list and think they should. The general practices were receiving lots of abuse in the last couple of days since the letter landed. And do you know what advice / guidance they have had from the government on this ? Zero - not even a copy of the communication sent out....which should have said don’t contact your GP for a start.

My wife is an ACP in acute medicine division at a large hospital trust. Her and her colleagues are satisfied they are well prepared and now have the necessary equipment. They are not panicking or in chaos...yet. I work in the NHS as a commissioner and of course I see there's anxienty amongst NHS providers and in primary care. This is a massive challenge so it was never going to be anything other than difficult with mistakes along the way. But there are big positives too in terms of the preparations and response. PPE has been problematic but I'm not surprised by that because it's a supply and logistical nightmare. The staff and professional bodies are right to highlight their concerns.

[IanMcL]

Is that the same proper pay that Corbyn and his labour supporters are blaming a conservative government for not paying our nurses a fair wage???

Not sure of the meaning of the question dp, as the answer is yes. All the gains have been eroded, during the 'austerity regime, for all public workers.

[IanMcL]

So, the UK are second behind the US?

In preparation yes.

The chancellor has been doing good work. The rest too slow to catch a cold! As Mr J has tested positive,, Covid 19 must be slower than a cold!

[Paul Waine]

Like I care about Brexit.

Simple fact is the bloke that is supposed to protect us from all this has caught it himself because he didn't act fast enough.

Correct me if I'm got this wrong, T-Rex, haven't we seen posts on here where you've mentioned that you live in Spain?

Don't the people in Spain rely on the Spanish gov't to protect the residents of Spain?

Keep safe. Stay healthy, where ever you are.

[taio]

When I listen to doctors and nurses who are working day to day in hospitals and in general practice I do not here them saying what you are in terms of being ready to respond and being prepared. My wife is a nurse and every day on the news you are seeing doctors and nurses and the professional bodies that represent them (BMA, RCN, etc) telling you how unprepared they feel and are - whether this be the lack of PPE or the lack of guidance provided by the government.
For example General Practices are now being bombarded with angry patients who after the 1.5m letters went out to the most vulnerable who either want to know why they are on the list and can’t go out or go to work in some cases and then also being rang by people not on the list and think they should. The general practices were receiving lots of abuse in the last couple of days since the letter landed. And do you know what advice / guidance they have had from the government on this ? Zero - not even a copy of the communication sent out....which should have said don’t contact your GP for a start.

GPs have had access to the shielding letter and guidancehttps://www.england.nhs.uk/coronavirus/ ... -patients/

[TVC15]

GPs have had access to the shielding letter and guidance.

Well it must have been all but my wife’s practice as the only reason they got the letter yesterday was because I sent it as my friend received it earlier in the week. They have still had no guidance. It’s one of the biggest surgeries in Burnley.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Actually, Tony Blair's Government did more for the health service than any since its creation. Buildings and proper pay for the nurses.

Meanwhile the aftermath of the damage done is still being ignored..

[IanMcL]

Not even pennies in today's world.

[taio]

Well it must have been all but my wife’s practice as the only reason they got the letter yesterday was because I sent it as my friend received it earlier in the week. They have still had no guidance. It’s one of the biggest surgeries in Burnley.

It's the fault of the practice. They will have had the letter and guidance at the above link. And in any case the practice has a responsibility to keep up to date with guidance, particularly to GPs and primary care, being issued via gov.uk and by NHS England.

[Paul Waine]

Well I’m not sure who to believe now. Dr Horton of The Lancet, or taio, of UTC.

I think Dr Horton was the guy on QT on Thursday. I wonder what his "back story" is?

I'll go with the Medical and Science guys that we've seen on the gov't daily covid-19 briefings.

[BleedingClaret]

do any of you think Corbyn would have handled the crisis better or worse?
strange that dont you think. One is commonly called by first name and the other his last name.

You pose a question in your first sentence
Then all but answer it in your second

[BleedingClaret]

do any of you think Corbyn would have handled the crisis better or worse?
strange that dont you think. One is commonly called by first name and the other his last name.

You pose a question in your first sentence
Then all but answer it in your second

[Paul Waine]

Never really got the hysteria around bed numbers. 25yrs ago I had an inguinal hernia op, it was 3hrs, I was in hospital 5 days and have a six inch scar. It's now a 1hr outpatient procedure and you end up with 3 half inch long knicks. That's just 1 common operation that advances have massively reduced bed requirements.

It's a very good point. None of us want to be in hospital longer than needed. I'm also sure the doctors and nurses don't want patients in hospital longer than needed. So, a sign of progress with our health care is the need for fewer beds.

Of course, there can be times - and this is one - where there are needs for more resources to treat all those who will become hospitalised with covid-19. Ideally, there will also be capacity to continue to provide health care to all those with other conditions that require treatment in hospital.

[Dejavu]

Johnson chose his advisors based on economical factors rather than human lives. He could clearly see the trajectory of the virus from Italy who we are 2 weeks behind. Should have put lockdown in place 3 weeks ago but chose to ignore the signs.
Chose to use a, clearly wrong both morally and practically, "herd immunity model" against any sane advice, now denies ever using the strategy in the first place.

[Paul Waine]

When I listen to doctors and nurses who are working day to day in hospitals and in general practice I do not here them saying what you are in terms of being ready to respond and being prepared. My wife is a nurse and every day on the news you are seeing doctors and nurses and the professional bodies that represent them (BMA, RCN, etc) telling you how unprepared they feel and are - whether this be the lack of PPE or the lack of guidance provided by the government.
For example General Practices are now being bombarded with angry patients who after the 1.5m letters went out to the most vulnerable who either want to know why they are on the list and can’t go out or go to work in some cases and then also being rang by people not on the list and think they should. The general practices were receiving lots of abuse in the last couple of days since the letter landed. And do you know what advice / guidance they have had from the government on this ? Zero - not even a copy of the communication sent out....which should have said don’t contact your GP for a start.

This isn't my area of expertise, TVC. I think the 1.5 m letters were explained by the medical person on the daily covid-19 briefing. I think she, (if I remember correctly) said that the 1.5 million were based on the records that were available and some who had the conditions mentioned wouldn't be in these records and others may receive the letter but they no longer had the condition (maybe even there were errors in the records...). I'm pretty sure it said contact your GP if you are concerned....

I know my medical records are available in electronic form - as set up by my GP. I also know that the records are far from complete, both with earlier stuff and with more recent stuff. If I was concerned about receiving a medical letter.... I just might have tried to call my GP to assist....

[TVC15]

This isn't my area of expertise, TVC. I think the 1.5 m letters were explained by the medical person on the daily covid-19 briefing. I think she, (if I remember correctly) said that the 1.5 million were based on the records that were available and some who had the conditions mentioned wouldn't be in these records and others may receive the letter but they no longer had the condition (maybe even there were errors in the records...). I'm pretty sure it said contact your GP if you are concerned....

I know my medical records are available in electronic form - as set up by my GP. I also know that the records are far from complete, both with earlier stuff and with more recent stuff. If I was concerned about receiving a medical letter.... I just might have tried to call my GP to assist....

I’m no expert either Paul - I’m just going off the real life experience of people who are in the middle of it and not administrative officials or government officials. The communication I was sent did not mention ringing your GP - infact all the government advice so far on Corona has been specifically not to contact your GPs. Presumably because they are breaking at the seams with staff sickness and having to fulfil all of their normal appointments.

I would be amazed if this is not the case at all GPs - it certainly is at mine which is a different practice to where my wife works.

We need to bear in mind the state of hospitals and GPs before this crisis - it’s been deteriorating for many years. So no real big surprise that they feel unprepared and massively under pressure now. Pointing out a link on a government website doesn’t really fix it when from the minute they walk into work to leaving 10 or 12 hours later they do not have a minute to catch a breath - let alone be briefed or discuss new guidelines and how they need to deal with them. That is the reality.

[CardyTheClaret]

In preparation yes.

The chancellor has been doing good work. The rest too slow to catch a cold! As Mr J has tested positive,, Covid 19 must be slower than a cold!

Than Spain & Italy?

[AndrewJB]

I think Dr Horton was the guy on QT on Thursday. I wonder what his "back story" is?

I'll go with the Medical and Science guys that we've seen on the gov't daily covid-19 briefings.

Dr Horton's backstory is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Horton_(editor)

On QT he didn't come out with anything particularly contentious. He simply asked why, in the month before Johnson declared the partial lockdown, we hadn't stockpiled equipment we need, like testing kits, ventilators, and protective gear. We had the time, but we didn't do it.

This article suggests we actually had nine weeks: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... squandered

Some very good questions in this article. I'm going to quote two paragraphs: "The UK’s head start in managing the outbreak continued as our confirmed case count remained lower than our neighbours’. However, on 12 March, Boris Johnson announced that all minor testing and contact tracing would stop and passive self-isolation would be introduced for those with symptoms, all part of a herd immunity strategy supposedly endorsed by the “best science”. After a backlash from scientists, the government clarified that it was not explicitly pursuing herd immunity, but would be taking measures at the “right time guided by the evidence”, all according to a plan which it did not share with the public."

And: "We had a choice early on in the UK’s trajectory to go down the South Korean path of mass testing, isolating carriers of the virus (50% of whom are asymptomatic), tracing all contacts to ensure they isolate as well, and at the same time taking soft measures to delay the spread. Instead, we watched and waited, and whether it was academic navel-gazing, political infighting, a sense of British exceptionalism, or a deliberate choice to minimise economic disruption over saving lives, we have ended up in a position where we are now closer to the Italy scenario than anticipated, and are faced with taking more and more drastic measures."

I'd imagine the conversations and advice that led to the 12th March announcement by Johnson will be pored over by the inquiry.

[Jakubclaret]

Never really got the hysteria around bed numbers. 25yrs ago I had an inguinal hernia op, it was 3hrs, I was in hospital 5 days and have a six inch scar. It's now a 1hr outpatient procedure and you end up with 3 half inch long knicks. That's just 1 common operation that advances have massively reduced bed requirements.

That true & all the advancements will minimise bed requirements, you will get gains & losses, with some new diseases & some already existing gathering at a debilitating pace.

[Paul Waine]

Dr Horton's backstory is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Horton_(editor)

On QT he didn't come out with anything particularly contentious. He simply asked why, in the month before Johnson declared the partial lockdown, we hadn't stockpiled equipment we need, like testing kits, ventilators, and protective gear. We had the time, but we didn't do it.

This article suggests we actually had nine weeks: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... squandered

Some very good questions in this article. I'm going to quote two paragraphs: "The UK’s head start in managing the outbreak continued as our confirmed case count remained lower than our neighbours’. However, on 12 March, Boris Johnson announced that all minor testing and contact tracing would stop and passive self-isolation would be introduced for those with symptoms, all part of a herd immunity strategy supposedly endorsed by the “best science”. After a backlash from scientists, the government clarified that it was not explicitly pursuing herd immunity, but would be taking measures at the “right time guided by the evidence”, all according to a plan which it did not share with the public."

And: "We had a choice early on in the UK’s trajectory to go down the South Korean path of mass testing, isolating carriers of the virus (50% of whom are asymptomatic), tracing all contacts to ensure they isolate as well, and at the same time taking soft measures to delay the spread. Instead, we watched and waited, and whether it was academic navel-gazing, political infighting, a sense of British exceptionalism, or a deliberate choice to minimise economic disruption over saving lives, we have ended up in a position where we are now closer to the Italy scenario than anticipated, and are faced with taking more and more drastic measures."

I'd imagine the conversations and advice that led to the 12th March announcement by Johnson will be pored over by the inquiry.

Thanks, Andrew. Interesting back story. It appears he qualified as a doctor but then didn't spend a long time being a doctor. Wikipedia references Lancet and Wakefield anti-vaccination article - and Lancet being very slow to retract. And, quite a bit of other stuff that suggests Horton has some particular points of view. I expect we will see more of him on QT/other BBC stuff.

As for the Guardian article.....29-Feb UK's first local case of transmission....then next sentence says UK had 9 weeks. But, Guardian article published 23-Mar, so that's just 23 days - 3 weeks and 2 days. It's wonderful all this stuff that can be done with hindsight and," but if we'd started doing this earlier...." wishful thinking.

[Woodleyclaret]

Whose Corbyn I thought he resigned long ago?

[THEWELLERNUT70]

I'm guessing both would do an equal job as they would have the same medical advisors.

A bit of a stupid question in the 1st place if you ask me

[Top Claret]

Just been talking to my neighbour who is a nurse at Manchester Royal. I asked her about the coronavirus and how she is coping, she went on to say that she works in surgery and is not aware of anyone at the hospital with the virus, staff or patients

[taio]

I’m no expert either Paul - I’m just going off the real life experience of people who are in the middle of it and not administrative officials or government officials. The communication I was sent did not mention ringing your GP - infact all the government advice so far on Corona has been specifically not to contact your GPs. Presumably because they are breaking at the seams with staff sickness and having to fulfil all of their normal appointments.

I would be amazed if this is not the case at all GPs - it certainly is at mine which is a different practice to where my wife works.

We need to bear in mind the state of hospitals and GPs before this crisis - it’s been deteriorating for many years. So no real big surprise that they feel unprepared and massively under pressure now. Pointing out a link on a government website doesn’t really fix it when from the minute they walk into work to leaving 10 or 12 hours later they do not have a minute to catch a breath - let alone be briefed or discuss new guidelines and how they need to deal with them. That is the reality.

There is simply no justifiable reason why a GP practice shouldn't have kept on top of critical communications aimed directly at them. They have practice managers and support staff to assist them too and are being supported by their local CCG. I don't if you live in Lancashire but practices locally have seen less demand and presentations within practices for obvious reasons in the last two weeks. Which practices are you referring to?

[AndrewJB]

Thanks, Andrew. Interesting back story. It appears he qualified as a doctor but then didn't spend a long time being a doctor. Wikipedia references Lancet and Wakefield anti-vaccination article - and Lancet being very slow to retract. And, quite a bit of other stuff that suggests Horton has some particular points of view. I expect we will see more of him on QT/other BBC stuff.

As for the Guardian article.....29-Feb UK's first local case of transmission....then next sentence says UK had 9 weeks. But, Guardian article published 23-Mar, so that's just 23 days - 3 weeks and 2 days. It's wonderful all this stuff that can be done with hindsight and," but if we'd started doing this earlier...." wishful thinking.

Nine weeks from mid January - when the first human to human transmission was substantiated. The NHS won't be considering responses to a disease only from the first local UK transmission - thankfully. Nine weeks! As for Horten, I can see you'd love to be able to discredit him, but that still wouldn't undermine the validity of his questions. Why was the government unable to supply first line staff with the equipment they need to do their jobs and remain safe - considering the government had at least a month if not nine weeks to prepare?

[Jakubclaret]

Just been talking to my neighbour who is a nurse at Manchester Royal. I asked her about the coronavirus and how she is coping, she went on to say that she works in surgery and is not aware of anyone at the hospital with the virus, staff or patients

To be honest that's not surprising according to the guidelines the advice is remain at home, the last thing they'd want is people turning up at the hospitals already infected, the idea is to isolate indoors & purge the virus out of the system, even repeat prescriptions & going to the surgery can be avoided by using the App & simply going to the chemist, as much distance from Covid-19 & people already poorly with other ailments is the idea.

[Greenmile]

That's a pathetic response. Do you not realise that there are different views from experts and Dr Horton is just one opinion?.Which bit about my post did you particularly disagree with? Demand down in many Trusts? It's all well a good sitting on the sidelines pointing the finger but the response from so many public bodies including the NHS has been tremendous.

The bit that directly contradicts what the editor-in-chief of The Lancet says.

[Greenmile]

I think Dr Horton was the guy on QT on Thursday. I wonder what his "back story" is?...

Still struggling with how Google works, Paul?

[taio]

The bit that directly contradicts what the editor-in-chief of The Lancet says.

I said not all Trusts are in chaos and panic yet and the ones I work alongside have seen a reduction in demand so far. This has given them space to contingency plan in a measured and controlled way and be well placed to respond to the upsurge. As you disagree with that point, what are you basing it on? Are you saying that some NHS providers haven't seen a drop in activity and have not prepared well during this time?

[AlargeClaret]

The bit that directly contradicts what the editor-in-chief of The Lancet says.

You’re seriously using Horton for a credible balanced view ? A raving left wing lunatic whose usually using his elevated status ranting about climate change and Palestine within the journal .He’s an attention seeking absolute whore . He acts like a glorified union rep , It’s Dick’s way or the highway is his only tactic .

[Greenmile]

I said not all Trusts are in chaos and panic yet and the ones I work alongside have seen a reduction in demand so far. This has given them space to contingency plan in a measured and controlled way and be well placed to respond to the upsurge. As you disagree with that point, what are you basing it on? Are you saying that some NHS providers haven't seen a drop in activity and have not prepared well during this time?

I’m basing it on the words of the Editor-in-Chief of The Lancet, which I’m giving a little more weight to than the word of some random person on a football messageboard.

I’m one of those rare folk who hasn’t “had enough of experts” yet, you see. Even the ones that believe in anthropogenic climate change or the rights of Palestinians (that bit’s for ALargeClaret).

[taio]

I’m basing it on the words of the Editor-in-Chief of The Lancet, which I’m giving a little more weight to than the word of some random person on a football messageboard.

I’m one of those rare folk who hasn’t “had enough of experts” yet, you see. Even the ones that believe in anthropogenic climate change or the rights of Palestinians (that bit’s for ALargeClaret).

Dull as per. There are many and varying views from experts. His is just one. You've offered nothing meaningful or interesting on this thread. Cheerio.

[AlargeClaret]

Even the ones that believe in anthropogenic climate change or the rights of Palestinians (that bit’s for ALargeClaret).

Actually it’s a bit far using his editorial status of a medical journal to highlight his own hobby horses ( regardless of their gravity )

[SmudgetheClaret]

It doesnt matter which dont forget its "Goverment advisors" who run this country people who we didnt vote for or even know the names of.

[TVC15]

There is simply no justifiable reason why a GP practice shouldn't have kept on top of critical communications aimed directly at them. They have practice managers and support staff to assist them too and are being supported by their local CCG. I don't if you live in Lancashire but practices locally have seen less demand and presentations within practices for obvious reasons in the last two weeks. Which practices are you referring to?

Not saying which for obvious reasons.
Not sure how you think you would know whether the reasons are justified or not...the staff levels are lower due to sickness and they are already booked up every minute of the day with appointments.
The nurses / doctors are individually reading up on the virus of course and being sent stuff from the practice managers.
Does not mean that there is a still large amount of ambiguity or that they have the answers or time to deal with patients ringing them up about things like this weeks communication when they are not supposed to ring their GP.

Things may be all calm and prepared at your end - they are not everywhere....as is abundantly clear from the doctors, nurses and professional bodies across the country who are the news every morning saying this.

Not looking for a reply from you on this btw as it’s fine if you want to think or put forward a view that everything is fine across the NHS and there is no chaos etc that’s up to you. There’s examples close to home for me where I’m being told the opposite and stuff on the news regularly which gives me a different view...and I’m happy to rationalise that some areas are coping a lot better than others too.

[Greenmile]

Dull as per. There are many and varying views from experts. His is just one. You've offered nothing meaningful or interesting on this thread. Cheerio.

Show me the expert view (yours doesn’t count) that directly contradicts Dr Horton’s as you did, and I might be persuaded.

If you can manage to do it without trying to insult me along the way, you’ve even more chance of bringing me ‘round to your way of thinking - i suspect you might find that bit a little tricky though.

[taio]

Not saying which for obvious reasons.
Not sure how you think you would know whether the reasons are justified or not...the staff levels are lower due to sickness and they are already booked up every minute of the day with appointments.
The nurses / doctors are individually reading up on the virus of course and being sent stuff from the practice managers.
Does not mean that there is a still large amount of ambiguity or that they have the answers or time to deal with patients ringing them up about things like this weeks communication when they are not supposed to ring their GP.

Things may be all calm and prepared at your end - they are not everywhere....as is abundantly clear from the doctors, nurses and professional bodies across the country who are the news every morning saying this.

Not looking for a reply from you on this btw as it’s fine if you want to think or put forward a view that everything is fine across the NHS and there is no chaos etc that’s up to you. There’s examples close to home for me where I’m being told the opposite and stuff on the news regularly which gives me a different view...and I’m happy to rationalise that some areas are coping a lot better than others too.

Hang on a minute I've never suggested for one second everything is fine and there is not chaos in some settings. You are trying to put words into my mouth. I'm just giving balance and facts. Unlike your post about the letter to the 1.5m shielded which was misinformed.

[AndrewJB]

You’re seriously using Horton for a credible balanced view ? A raving left wing lunatic whose usually using his elevated status ranting about climate change and Palestine within the journal .He’s an attention seeking absolute whore . He acts like a glorified union rep , It’s Dick’s way or the highway is his only tactic .

He has a different view on climate change and Palestinian rights than you, so he’s a “raving left wing lunatic”? His questions about why the government hasn’t supplied enough equipment to the NHS despite having over a month to prepare is therefore invalid?

[Greenmile]

Hang on a minute I've never suggested for one second everything is fine and there is not chaos in some settings. You are trying to put words into my mouth. I'm just giving balance and facts. Unlike your post about the letter to the 1.5m shielded which was misinformed.

Looks like I may have misunderstood your point, so I’ll apologise for that.

I now think you’re saying that because there hasn’t been chaos and panic in every individual part of the NHS, there hasn’t been chaos and panic “across the NHS” as claimed by Dr Horton, in which case you’re no doubt right, but I think that’s a fairly narrow and pedantic interpretation of what he was saying.

[TVC15]

Hang on a minute I've never suggested for one second everything is fine and there is not chaos in some settings. You are trying to put words into my mouth. I'm just giving balance and facts. Unlike your post about the letter to the 1.5m shielded which was misinformed.

What was misinformed about it ? I said that the nurses in the practices I was referring to had not been briefed and they were having patients ring up, abuse them over the phone in a number of cases and that they did not have the answers.
It’s unlikely that these were the only 2 practices in the country experiencing this but I cannot say for sure because that’s the only ones I was directly told about by people working there.

As for putting words in your mouth I’m pretty sure you have been putting forward the view that the NHS is well prepared, there is no chaos or panic and that they are being briefed clearly. Apologies if that’s not what your saying but that’s what it sounds like.
I have a different view based on what I am hearing, seeing and reading.

[Jakubclaret]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 31311.html
I mentioned a couple of nights ago money played a part in shortages & I was shot down for it, money or should I say lack of will always impact the NHS, some equipment should have been on standby far sooner but for advice ignored 3 years ago, if the money was spent there & then better preparation would have surely ensued now, yes I also get the argument hindsight’s a wonderful thing, some of that same equipment could have been used now.

[taio]

Looks like I may have misunderstood your point, so I’ll apologise for that.

I now think you’re saying that because there hasn’t been chaos and panic in every individual part of the NHS, there hasn’t been chaos and panic “across the NHS” as claimed by Dr Horton, in which case you’re no doubt right, but I think that’s a fairly narrow and pedantic interpretation of what he was saying.

It's not pedantic. I know many Trusts are under unprecedented pressure, especially London based, but many aren't yet, especially in these parts. I can evidence this when statutory returns are published. I work in the NHS alongside clinicians and my wife is a clinician very much at the coal face in a large acute hospital and in the departments that will be the first line of health care provision for those suffering from COVID-19. I also listen to her and her colleagues who are calm and prepared.

[taio]

What was misinformed about it ? I said that the nurses in the practices I was referring to had not been briefed and they were having patients ring up, abuse them over the phone in a number of cases and that they did not have the answers.
It’s unlikely that these were the only 2 practices in the country experiencing this but I cannot say for sure because that’s the only ones I was directly told about by people working there.

As for putting words in your mouth I’m pretty sure you have been putting forward the view that the NHS is well prepared, there is no chaos or panic and that they are being briefed clearly. Apologies if that’s not what your saying but that’s what it sounds like.
I have a different view based on what I am hearing, seeing and reading.

I was referring to when you said GP practices had received zero advice and guidance or a copy of the letter. You obviously thought it to be true but it's not true. If a practice can't communicate clear and important messages it has received to its staff that's not the fault of anyone else other than the practice itself.

I have said that parts of the NHS is now well prepared and not currently in chaos. In fact my opening message referred to some experiencing lower ED attendances and emergency admissions. I've in no way said that is the case across the NHS, nor have I said it will be maintained.

[KateR]

interesting reading the discussions between the three of you, for me it seemed to be the three of you were saying similar things at the end of the same thread line and it looks like you are now meeting in the middle. This is good, well at least I hope you are, it's not all good and not all bad, is it? Some worse that others, which for the ill informed, with poor real knowledge like me it gives a balanced view of what I would have expected, as noted you'd expect things to be worse in London.

If JC had won at the last election he would have been just as ill prepared as BJ was, the supply chain and equipment was simply not there to be able to turn a switch on, I would like to believe that I would never have criticized him during this outbreak. Same as I am not blaming BJ, have mistakes been made yes of course but no one could convince me that JC reaction would have been faultless, therefore I see little merit in the thread title at all. Yet I have enjoyed some of the comments, which gives real life insights rather than sensational headlines from people trying to sell news.

[TVC15]

I was referring to when you said GP practices had received zero advice and guidance or a copy of the letter. You obviously thought it to be true but it's not true. If a practice can't communicate clear and important messages it has received to its staff that's not the fault of anyone else other than the practice itself.

I have said that parts of the NHS is now well prepared and not currently in chaos. In fact my opening message referred to some experiencing lower ED attendances and emergency admissions. I've in no way said that is the case across the NHS, nor have I said it will be maintained.

The messages are not clear though are they ? And neither is the guidance. The capacity that practices have to go through this as a team and try and clarify ambiguity with the government to come up with consistent and informative answers to their patients is not there - at the practices I know about.
And I’m not just referring to the 1.5m letters either - it’s been the case since the start of this that GPs have had little clarity and a lot of ambiguity as to how they respond to patients - and they have only just started to receive PPE in the last couple of days.
But again that’s just what I am being told and the situation maybe a lot better elsewhere

[taio]

The messages are not clear though are they ? And neither is the guidance. The capacity that practices have to go through this as a team and try and clarify ambiguity with the government to come up with consistent and informative answers to their patients is not there - at the practices I know about.
And I’m not just referring to the 1.5m letters either - it’s been the case since the start of this that GPs have had little clarity and a lot of ambiguity as to how they respond to patients - and they have only just started to receive PPE in the last couple of days.
But again that’s just what I am being told and the situation maybe a lot better elsewhere

I think the messages on the 1.5m shielded were crystal clear. That's what I was referring to. Some of the other communications have been unclear but on the whole I think the guidance has been good. PPE has been a big concern although significant progress has been made over the past week or so. But on both communications and PPE, I feel there needs to be more realism and moderating of expectations. These are enormously challenging and fast changing times, meaning mistakes will be made and there will be lessons to be learned. I keep saying that decisions are being made and plans implemented in days or even hours, that would normally take many months.

[TVC15]

interesting reading the discussions between the three of you, for me it seemed to be the three of you were saying similar things at the end of the same thread line and it looks like you are now meeting in the middle. This is good, well at least I hope you are, it's not all good and not all bad, is it? Some worse that others, which for the ill informed, with poor real knowledge like me it gives a balanced view of what I would have expected, as noted you'd expect things to be worse in London.

If JC had won at the last election he would have been just as ill prepared as BJ was, the supply chain and equipment was simply not there to be able to turn a switch on, I would like to believe that I would never have criticized him during this outbreak. Same as I am not blaming BJ, have mistakes been made yes of course but no one could convince me that JC reaction would have been faultless, therefore I see little merit in the thread title at all. Yet I have enjoyed some of the comments, which gives real life insights rather than sensational headlines from people trying to sell news.

Good points - trying not to politicise things as it’s absolutely pointless and ruins every thread.
My daughter is on the frontline in the police and I know their force still has no PPE - that in my view is a disgrace and I would feel the same whoever was in power.

I do think that both the police and health service are suffering from the austerity measures and cut backs - I thought this before but it’s only in the last few months that hearing the reality from my daughter that I know 100% that there is a massive amount of ignorance in the country about what the police do and how big the impact has been of cutting their numbers and all the support services.

It’s the same in the NHS too - the cuts went way too far. And I realise that nobody could have predicted this pandemic but the service was already on its knees.