THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

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Foreverly Claret
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THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Foreverly Claret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:40 pm

I live between Leeds and Halifax.

My wife is suffering from horrendous toothache.Her dentist is shut but they were running an advisory service...which was good.It closed yesterday and we were advised to contact 111.Service there seemed really good too .They promised to ring us this ( Wednesday ) morning...and they did .GREAT !!

My wife is a bit hard of hearing so I joined in the call.Lady at the other end was sorry she couldn't see anybody to talk about extractions etc BUT she was going to prescribe antibiotics for 5 days.GREAT ..progress.

The prescription will be ready at 2pm .Fantastic . I'll give you the address .

SHEFFIELD !!!!

I said hang on that's an 80 mile round trip..can't you send it to our local chosen pharmacy.No can do . SHEFFIELD !!!

So , having battled the NHS unsuccessfully for the last three months on other matters I though ******** to self isolation we'll have a drive down to Sheffield even though I hate driving in Sheffield...it could be special antibiotics I thought...being charitable.

Found the chemist..tiny little shop near the Uni ,picked up the packet and returned to the car.Wife opens package.

AMOXICILLIN !!! Bloody hell I've driven 40 miles so far to pick up 5 days supply of the most common antibiotic which every bloody chemist in the land must stock...and here am I in soddin' Sheffield .

I should have been staying at home but I HAVE to go to Sheffield.They presume I can drive.They presume I have a car.

I think it must be me .I'm packing for the funny farm

California Colner
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by California Colner » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:45 pm

Sounds like a nice relaxing day for ya both
You must have had a beer 🍺 when ya got home to take the stress out
Look at it this way it could have been far far worse

Zlatan
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Zlatan » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:46 pm

Just wow... I honestly don’t know how you didn’t phone back and ask to escalate it. That is horrendous

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by conyoviejo » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:48 pm

Hope you got home before 2.30 .
Last edited by conyoviejo on Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Pimlico_Claret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:49 pm

When I was a dentist we got penalised for prescribing antibiotics blindly.
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Aclaret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:53 pm

Don't know what's gone wrong there foreverley, my wife is suffering the same, on Monday I drove 2 miles to pick the same up.
Last edited by Aclaret on Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Devils_Advocate
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:54 pm

Your adventure reminds me of a certain 1980's John Cleese movie!!

Image
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Fenwick » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:55 pm

Is this a case of the computer says no ?

Spiral
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Spiral » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:04 pm

That whole sorry mess would have been averted had the govt done the sensible thing and designated dentistry as essential service - which it is - even if reduced to emergency procedures. I remember typing a bit of a post out on another covid thread about dentistry the day full lockdown came into force, before deleting it all after thinking 'what's the point? Some bellend is going to argue with me in favour of the govt no matter what and I honestly can't arsed with the hassle'.

Abscesses, for example, can eventually kill you if not treated. It makes no sense for a person whose infection has spread to their brain to be admitted to an already overburdened hospital where a simple extraction in a dental surgery would have otherwise done the job, allowing the patient to get on with their life as best they can.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:11 pm

It’s a golden rule for me I always hold back antibiotics, I know it’s advised you don’t because the infection could return you should finish the course, I’ve always got away with it & its been a godsend in certain predicaments.
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Spiral » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:20 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:11 pm
It’s a golden rule for me I always hold back antibiotics, I know it’s advised you don’t because the infection could return you should finish the course, I’ve always got away with it & its been a godsend in certain predicaments.
Would it not be better to follow a course of treatment as prescribed by a person who has spent years, even decades of their life studying and practicing medicine? Your luck will eventually run out.
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:20 pm

My local dentist have cancelled all routine check ups and hygiene, but open for emergencies. I'm surprised your dentist couldn't deal with it, or at least put you on to some other dentist.

Spiral
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Spiral » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:24 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:20 pm
My local dentist have cancelled all routine check ups and hygiene, but open for emergencies. I'm surprised your dentist couldn't deal with it, or at least put you on to some other dentist.
Should not be down to the discretion of the individual practice, though, which it appears to be from what I've heard. Govt should have designated dentistry as essential, even if caveated by 'for emergency procedures'.
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Jakubclaret
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:27 pm

Spiral wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:20 pm
Would it not be better to follow a course of treatment as prescribed by a person who has spent years, even decades of their life studying and practicing medicine? Your luck will eventually run out.
It’s a win win, if it does return you simply finish the course, it’s unlikely you will need them again for a year or so anyway more than enough time to establish if it was to return, you shouldn’t pump your body full of antibiotics anyway.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by ksrclaret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:29 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:27 pm
It’s a win win, if it does return you simply finish the course, it’s unlikely you will need them again for a year or so anyway more than enough time to establish if it was to return, you shouldn’t pump your body full of antibiotics anyway.
You're giving the surviving bacteria more time to acquire antibiotic resistance genes by not finishing the course.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:31 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:29 pm
You're giving the surviving bacteria more time to acquire antibiotic resistance genes by not finishing the course.
Well so far so good, the other poster might be right & my luck will run out 1 day, it’s the chance I’m willing to take because I think it’s worth it.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by ksrclaret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:35 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:31 pm
Well so far so good, the other poster might be right & my luck will run out 1 day, it’s the chance I’m willing to take because I think it’s worth it.
It's not just your luck that will run out. If your actions give rise to bacteria that are newly-resistant to an antibiotic, that presents a problem for all of us.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:37 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:35 pm
It's not just your luck that will run out. If your actions give rise to bacteria that are newly-resistant to an antibiotic, that presents a problem for all of us.
It’s a grey area.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... study-says

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Spiral » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:38 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:27 pm
It’s a win win, if it does return you simply finish the course, it’s unlikely you will need them again for a year or so anyway more than enough time to establish if it was to return, you shouldn’t pump your body full of antibiotics anyway.
No offence, Jakub, but idiots like you end up costing our health service a lot more money than those who just followed the damned advice they were given. If a shorter course of antibiotic treatment were a 'win/win', you'd be prescribed a shorter course of treatment. I'm stunned, I truly am, that in these time, of all times, you'd place your own misguided, and frankly dangerous, notions of common sense above the professional opinions of trained clinicians.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:43 pm

Spiral wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:38 pm
No offence, Jakub, but idiots like you end up costing our health service a lot more money than those who just followed the damned advice they were given. If a shorter course of antibiotic treatment were a 'win/win', you'd be prescribed a shorter course of treatment. I'm stunned, I truly am, that in these time, of all times, you'd place your own misguided, and frankly dangerous, notions of common sense above the professional opinions of trained clinicians.
If you read the article I posted, groups of experts believe I’m right & within the article plenty of valid reasons exist, I suggest you read not what I’m saying on a message board but what experts & professors are saying, opinions & facts are changing.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:46 pm

Spiral wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:04 pm
That whole sorry mess would have been averted had the govt done the sensible thing and designated dentistry as essential service - which it is - even if reduced to emergency procedures. I remember typing a bit of a post out on another covid thread about dentistry the day full lockdown came into force, before deleting it all after thinking 'what's the point? Some bellend is going to argue with me in favour of the govt no matter what and I honestly can't arsed with the hassle'.

Abscesses, for example, can eventually kill you if not treated. It makes no sense for a person whose infection has spread to their brain to be admitted to an already overburdened hospital where a simple extraction in a dental surgery would have otherwise done the job, allowing the patient to get on with their life as best they can.
I'd an appointment booked at 11 yesterday in Burton for a follow up to emergency treatment for an abscess I picked up about a month ago.
Absolute agony, seen, antibiotics, so far so good. Pole up to the surgery yesterday, expecting quick in, extraction and then out, no the door's locked with a receptionist mouthing that they were shut. Completely.
I told her I'd had a phone call three days earlier to say come in Tuesday at 11. Emergency follow up. No good, they're shut to everyone for as long as it takes. Didn't I get a text, she asked. No, I didn't.
I just hope to God it doesn't blow again. What I don't understand is that if you have an abscess and there is swelling, the dentist has to see you within 24 hours. I'm assuming it's an A and E job now if it does go again which is a pretty stupid and potentially dangerous waste of resources.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by ksrclaret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:49 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:37 pm
It’s a grey area.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... study-says
Interesting article, though I'm tempted to disagree. It suggests that increased exposure to antibiotics can lead to resistance - sorry but that doesn't make any sense. If the antibiotics have been prescribed correctly, the bacteria should be killed by the antibiotics. Unless of course the article is assuming all prescriptions are prophylactic? And in any case, acquisition of a mutation is a random event and doesn't depend whatsoever on whether antibiotics are present. They can exert a selection pressure, but the mutation will occur with or without them there because it is a random event. The crux of the issue is this - if bacteria are surviving there's a chance they are mutating.

So for now I'm tempted to stick rather than twist. The longer the population of bacteria survive, the higher the chance of mutation acquisition.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by boatshed bill » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:51 pm

Spiral wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:20 pm
Would it not be better to follow a course of treatment as prescribed by a person who has spent years, even decades of their life studying and practicing medicine? Your luck will eventually run out.
You used to be able to buy them off the shelf in Spain, perhaps you still can.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:53 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:49 pm
Interesting article, though I'm tempted to disagree. It suggests that increased exposure to antibiotics can lead to resistance - sorry but that doesn't make any sense. If the antibiotics have been prescribed correctly, the bacteria should be killed by the antibiotics. Unless of course the article is assuming all prescriptions are prophylactic? And in any case, acquisition of a mutation is a random event and doesn't depend whatsoever on whether antibiotics are present. They can exert a selection pressure, but the mutation will occur with or without them there because it is a random event. The crux of the issue is this - if bacteria are surviving there's a chance they are mutating.

So for now I'm tempted to stick rather than twist. The longer the population of bacteria survive, the higher the chance of mutation acquisition.
I can engage better when I’m not called a idiot, like I said it’s a grey area & it’s not simple, some experts & professors believe I’m right & that’s good enough for me.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Spiral » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:05 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:37 pm
It’s a grey area.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... study-says
If peer-reviewed study after peer-reviewed study were to establish a new scientific consensus on the appropriate use of antibiotics, then great. That's what an advance in medicine looks like. But, notwithstanding the worrying over-prescribing of antibiotics by clinicians fearful of ambulance-chasing lawyers to demanding, idiotic patients who don't value their GP's opinions, we aren't at a point, scientifically.
Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:43 pm
If you read the article I posted, groups of experts believe I’m right & within the article plenty of valid reasons exist, I suggest you read not what I’m saying on a message board but what experts & professors are saying, opinions & facts are changing.
You're taking a cowboy approach to medicine. Your rationale is that the cost/benefit of an incomplete course of treatment is to have a few antibiotic tablets in the cupboard in the event you ever get a bit sick in the future. Possibly because those tablets make you feel safe. Security, that's what's driving you. But that isn't how medicine works. You don't care for the scientific value of a study. You're drawn to whatever noise you believes validates your choice to keep a few antibiotics in the house for a later date. You're pursuing evidence in support of a conclusion you've already drawn.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Spiral » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:35 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:46 pm
I'd an appointment booked at 11 yesterday in Burton for a follow up to emergency treatment for an abscess I picked up about a month ago.
Absolute agony, seen, antibiotics, so far so good. Pole up to the surgery yesterday, expecting quick in, extraction and then out, no the door's locked with a receptionist mouthing that they were shut. Completely.
I told her I'd had a phone call three days earlier to say come in Tuesday at 11. Emergency follow up. No good, they're shut to everyone for as long as it takes. Didn't I get a text, she asked. No, I didn't.
I just hope to God it doesn't blow again. What I don't understand is that if you have an abscess and there is swelling, the dentist has to see you within 24 hours. I'm assuming it's an A and E job now if it does go again which is a pretty stupid and potentially dangerous waste of resources.
If it ends up causing you genuine distress I don't think there's anything you can do but go to the A&E if that's your last resort. Yes, they're overburdened (generally), and yes, it isn't the kind of thing you'd typically visit for, but you've paid for a health service all your life. It isn't your fault, or the NHS' fault (more's the pity), that the govt can't get organised. You don't want a tooth problem escalating to a spinal cord infection. Don't put your health at risk. If it comes back and you can't reach a dentist, at the very least phone a GP if it's causing you sleeplessness etc.
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Stanbill05
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Stanbill05 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:49 pm

That study was massively controversial at the time, and there is a reason the advice for antibiotic use hasn’t changed anywhere in the world since. Antibiotic resistance is real and is potentially as dangerous as this shitstorm we’re currently suffering. Different infections come with different risks on that front. Risks you are in no position to evaluate. You’ve decided to believe every word of that unproven study which never claimed to be definitive, yet the rest of the medical world remain unconvinced it is valid. Still, as long as you have your stockpile..

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:01 pm

https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/ ... Pass=false
Yet another article that supports my view, I’m sorry I just believe the experts.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Tall Paul » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:09 pm

Jakub gonna jakub.
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Spiral » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:21 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:01 pm
https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/ ... Pass=false
Yet another article that supports my view, I’m sorry I just believe the experts.
Your expressed rationale for withholding a full course of treatment, in the context of a thread in which a poster was not easily able to access prescribed antibiotics, was that the 'surplus' you have is a "godsend" (your words). Don't think so low of us to believe we'd think you of being possessed of a genuinely inquisitive mind after so clearly stating your reasons for ignoring medical advice. As I've said above, you're looking for validation for your behaviour. You don't give a pi$$ for science, hence why you're placing your faith in outlier opinions. You don't care for antibiotic resistance, or for the implications of over-prescribing antibiotics. I suspect you've thought nought of it at all before tonight. The folks on here challenging you, however, might well have read a book or two on the subject, perhaps. Layman as their understanding (and mine) might be, it's undoubtedly better than yours, evidenced by the fact they aren't scouring search engines for articles that might in the most contrived and convoluted ways point towards support for hoarding medicine.
Last edited by Spiral on Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by tim_noone » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:27 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:51 pm
You used to be able to buy them off the shelf in Spain, perhaps you still can.
Have you been watching the news lately bill?

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by dsr » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:51 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:27 pm
It’s a win win, if it does return you simply finish the course, it’s unlikely you will need them again for a year or so anyway more than enough time to establish if it was to return, you shouldn’t pump your body full of antibiotics anyway.
If it returns then the remainder won't kill it off. Simple arithmetic.

Suppose you have these bacteria and you are prescribed antibiotics to get rid of them, and the doctor thinks 5 days will only kill 95% of them, 10 days is what you need to be safe. So you take them for 5 days and feel as whole lot better because you have got rid of most of the bacteria, and you stop taking them.

Then the surviving 5% multiply, as bacteria are prone to do, and you feel rotten again. So you take the other half of the course and kill 95% of what's left. By which time, regardless of what your medical epxerts might say, the surviving bacteria are getting quite used to the idea of being plastered with this antibiotic.

What do you say when you go to the doctor? Hi doctor, I hope you realise that I know better than you so I won't do what you told me?

Whoever first advised of this plan was an idiot. Put it from your mind.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Bullabill » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:44 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:11 pm
It’s a golden rule for me I always hold back antibiotics, I know it’s advised you don’t because the infection could return you should finish the course, I’ve always got away with it & its been a godsend in certain predicaments.
Foolish, foolish, foolish. You'll be sorry.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Taffy on the wing » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:30 am

Foreverly Claret wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:40 pm
I live between Leeds and Halifax.

My wife is suffering from horrendous toothache.Her dentist is shut but they were running an advisory service...which was good.It closed yesterday and we were advised to contact 111.Service there seemed really good too .They promised to ring us this ( Wednesday ) morning...and they did .GREAT !!

My wife is a bit hard of hearing so I joined in the call.Lady at the other end was sorry she couldn't see anybody to talk about extractions etc BUT she was going to prescribe antibiotics for 5 days.GREAT ..progress.

The prescription will be ready at 2pm .Fantastic . I'll give you the address .

SHEFFIELD !!!!

I said hang on that's an 80 mile round trip..can't you send it to our local chosen pharmacy.No can do . SHEFFIELD !!!

So , having battled the NHS unsuccessfully for the last three months on other matters I though ******** to self isolation we'll have a drive down to Sheffield even though I hate driving in Sheffield...it could be special antibiotics I thought...being charitable.

Found the chemist..tiny little shop near the Uni ,picked up the packet and returned to the car.Wife opens package.

AMOXICILLIN !!! Bloody hell I've driven 40 miles so far to pick up 5 days supply of the most common antibiotic which every bloody chemist in the land must stock...and here am I in soddin' Sheffield .

I should have been staying at home but I HAVE to go to Sheffield.They presume I can drive.They presume I have a car.

I think it must be me .I'm packing for the funny farm
All i can say is......Hope you didn't vote Conservative!.......because if you did............

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:20 am

JakubClaret- Irrespective of if you think finishing the course is beneficial to you. How long do you think they last for you to stockpile?

A quick google suggests a year after being prescribed.

I'm sure you could just get another dose prescribed if needed?

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by boatshed bill » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:00 am

tim_noone wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:27 pm
Have you been watching the news lately bill?
No Tim, it's depressing

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:44 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:20 am
JakubClaret- Irrespective of if you think finishing the course is beneficial to you. How long do you think they last for you to stockpile?

A quick google suggests a year after being prescribed.

I'm sure you could just get another dose prescribed if needed?
I work off a tried & trusty old method as the old saying goes, if something isn't broken don't bother fixing it & it works, back to the question I don't really use medicine past it's expiry date I have done before in the past without problems it's not something that I come across, if it's 12mths past I'd probably bin depending what their are.

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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Siddo » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:47 pm

Spiral wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:04 pm
That whole sorry mess would have been averted had the govt done the sensible thing and designated dentistry as essential service - which it is - even if reduced to emergency procedures. I remember typing a bit of a post out on another covid thread about dentistry the day full lockdown came into force, before deleting it all after thinking 'what's the point? Some bellend is going to argue with me in favour of the govt no matter what and I honestly can't arsed with the hassle'.

Abscesses, for example, can eventually kill you if not treated. It makes no sense for a person whose infection has spread to their brain to be admitted to an already overburdened hospital where a simple extraction in a dental surgery would have otherwise done the job, allowing the patient to get on with their life as best they can.
I've had two abscesses and on both occasions the dentist told me that the tooth must not be pulled until the infection has gone.
This was 2 different dentist s incidentally.

Pimlico_Claret
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by Pimlico_Claret » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:01 pm

Siddo wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:47 pm
I've had two abscesses and on both occasions the dentist told me that the tooth must not be pulled until the infection has gone.
This was 2 different dentist s incidentally.
Often an acutely infected tooth won't anaesthetise sufficiently, or they may be a danger of spreading infection with the injection if very local to the tooth.
However, as with all things medical, there is no blanket reason, I've taken many an abscessed tooth out, much to the patients relief.

IanMcL
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Re: THE SYSTEM IS MAD !!!

Post by IanMcL » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:11 pm

A trip out in the car is not to be sneezed at!
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