Labour Leadership Election

[taio]

however plausible he is, we live in a country of docile idiots, Ant and Dec clowns and the SUN and its docile herd of thicknecks will be able to disregard any value there might have been in a new leader.
a nation that drools over soaps and reality tv shows is not the stuff of considered debate and honest values.
The "our boys " mob will always win.

You forgot Talksport

[RingoMcCartney]

however plausible he is, we live in a country of docile idiots, Ant and Dec clowns and the SUN and its docile herd of thicknecks will be able to disregard any value there might have been in a new leader.
a nation that drools over soaps and reality tv shows is not the stuff of considered debate and honest values.
The "our boys " mob will always win.

Sounds like you're totally disenchanted by the place to be honest.

Given that nobody has a gun held to their head, and isn't obliged to remain in a country of "docile idiots, Ant and Dec clowns and the SUN and its docile herd of thicknecks ". A country where, "The "our boys" mob will always win".

Where would you suggest that someone who , perhaps, feels the same way as you appear to do, should move to?

Anywhere spring to mind?

[ksrclaret]

however plausible he is, we live in a country of docile idiots, Ant and Dec clowns and the SUN and its docile herd of thicknecks will be able to disregard any value there might have been in a new leader.
a nation that drools over soaps and reality tv shows is not the stuff of considered debate and honest values.
The "our boys " mob will always win.

Spot on. And what's more, you've reeled in a couple of snowflakes. Well done. Good work.

[AndrewJB]

It also shows that the membership were not in line with a lot of its core supporters.
When momentum took over by an organised infiltration of constituency parties, through the mobilisation of young radicals, they left behind the people they were supposed to represent.
If Keir Starmer hopes to make Labour electable again, one of his first targets has to be reversing that.

"Infiltrating" - exactly how the Sun would describe people joining a political party and contributing to debate. Yet again I'm arguing against the press version of how things went - and you're probably going to tell me you don't read newspapers. You get your news through the horoscopes presumably?

Labour might become electable in the next election by pointing out how the Tories have wrecked our economy by running a massive deficit (spending too much money - for the Sun readers), and allowing companies to fail.

[Damo]

Momentum is a bit more than a political entity though isn't it? I think most people voted Tory at the last couple of GE's because they felt it would make them financially better off long term. Most people dont see the party they voted for as anything to be emotionally attached to. Can see the pro's and cons of having them in government etc, but it's a bit different with the momentum arm of the labour party.
It's on full view on here, but even more so on other social media platforms.
The blind devotion, and the defence of every slight criticism of Corbyn and momentum is really weird.
You can only blame Rupert Murdoch and every news outlet that doesn't toe the line for so long, before normal people start to see through the facade
Labour have had some serious issues throughout the last couple of campaign's (their own prejudices, anti semitism, the royal family, anyone privately educated etc) the inability to do simple maths at the top level of the party. Proclaiming to be staunch and forthright, then having complete about turns on party policy to try and gain a few voters (Brexit) and offering the world on a stick to try and mobilise people who traditionally dont do politics.
I know full well the response to this post will be along the lines of "you read the sun/daily mail/mein kampf" etc, because that has been the answer to every perceived slight for the past 4 or 5 years, but if labour are going to get in touch with the ordinary man, then they need to look a bit closer to home.
And I doubt very much the tories are terrified of momentum. They have been an absolute gift to them, and allowed them to get away with blunder after blunder, because most people didn't have a credible option at the ballot box.
I'd hazard a guess the next GE wont be such a one sided hammering as the previous one

[Stayingup]

They should rebrand the Labour party just like Blair did with 'New Labour', maybe they could call it 'London Labour Pressure Group' because this guy Starmer isn't going to win back Scotland, he's not going to get votes in the North the only area where they are going to strengthen their vote is in London.

This is the guy that came up with Labour's Brexit policy at the last election, which was to negotiate a deal with the EU then have a referendum on that deal, a deal which he would have voted against.

The wilderness years will continue for Labour.

Hes also the guy who furthered crimonal rights over victims rights. He's an out of touch wet dope.

[Stayingup]

I see the Sun is already attacking Starmer and looking at ways to smear him before he started.

The right wing press will be doing a real hatchet job on him to make sure the Tory's don't have any opposition and the idiots who lack any critical thinking skills will just lap it up and let it become their new truth

Critical thinkinh skills!!! Wow. After that comment and the recent annihilation of the Metro Wokes in the election I am afraid that you must go into that bracket yourself.

[AndrewJB]

Momentum is a bit more than a political entity though isn't it? I think most people voted Tory at the last couple of GE's because they felt it would make them financially better off long term. Most people dont see the party they voted for as anything to be emotionally attached to. Can see the pro's and cons of having them in government etc, but it's a bit different with the momentum arm of the labour party.
It's on full view on here, but even more so on other social media platforms.
The blind devotion, and the defence of every slight criticism of Corbyn and momentum is really weird.
You can only blame Rupert Murdoch and every news outlet that doesn't toe the line for so long, before normal people start to see through the facade
Labour have had some serious issues throughout the last couple of campaign's (their own prejudices, anti semitism, the royal family, anyone privately educated etc) the inability to do simple maths at the top level of the party. Proclaiming to be staunch and forthright, then having complete about turns on party policy to try and gain a few voters (Brexit) and offering the world on a stick to try and mobilise people who traditionally dont do politics.
I know full well the response to this post will be along the lines of "you read the sun/daily mail/mein kampf" etc, because that has been the answer to every perceived slight for the past 4 or 5 years, but if labour are going to get in touch with the ordinary man, then they need to look a bit closer to home.
And I doubt very much the tories are terrified of momentum. They have been an absolute gift to them, and allowed them to get away with blunder after blunder, because most people didn't have a credible option at the ballot box.
I'd hazard a guess the next GE wont be such a one sided hammering as the previous one

Let’s test the blind devotion theory. Tory propaganda claims Momentum are “far left”. If this is true, what evidence can you put forward, or do you blindly believe Tory propaganda? Show me an article from the right wing press in which Momentum haven’t been portrayed negatively to prove they haven’t been under constant attack. Just one article over the last three and a half years, from any of The Sun, Mail, Telegraph, Express. What are your genuine criticisms of Momentum? To show you’re not blindly devoted to Tory propaganda, you’ll be able to do this. And to show you I’m not blindly devoted to Momentum, I’ll graciously accept them. And then we can move on from silly accusations like this.

[TVC15]

Let’s test the blind devotion theory. Tory propaganda claims Momentum are “far left”. If this is true, what evidence can you put forward, or do you blindly believe Tory propaganda? Show me an article from the right wing press in which Momentum haven’t been portrayed negatively to prove they haven’t been under constant attack. Just one article over the last three and a half years, from any of The Sun, Mail, Telegraph, Express. What are your genuine criticisms of Momentum? To show you’re not blindly devoted to Tory propaganda, you’ll be able to do this. And to show you I’m not blindly devoted to Momentum, I’ll graciously accept them. And then we can move on from silly accusations like this.

To be fair AB I am a lifelong voter of Labour and it’s pretty easy for me to come up with plenty of examples of what is wrong with Momentum so it’s not going to be that hard for those who are more right wing than me !

Let’s start with :
1) proven anti Semitic
2) proven bullying
3) and if we want to get more complex a complete lack of self awareness of what the public perception of who they are and what they stand for....ask the vast majority of the general public this question and it will not be a pretty answer. Ask that same general public what they believe has been the main reasons for the demise of the Labour Party and JC and Momentum will be the main reasons mentioned. (And it matters not whether this is accurate or not)

[Stayingup]

Fact is that whoever labour elected would have had a problem in uniting the party. The metro know-it-alls and woke luvvies and the traditional voters outside the big cities are a long way apart from the tradtional voters in the country at large.

So, they decided to elect Keir Starmer. A man who is as much to blame as Corbyn for the disastrous election result. He is two faced. He said he would respect the referendum result and then tried his level best to thwart it. Voters saw through it. Now he proposes to take the UK back into a disastrous EU. A real vote winner. Perhaps Lisa Nandy was my personal tip but made a hash of it with her gender stance etc. Wokism is dead now in the current climate and hopefully wont re-appear because 90% of the country is not interested anyway.

One other thing. Who does read the Sun?

[Erasmus]

That's an interesting three point response, TVC15. On those points I might say:

1. Anti-semitism. I'm not convinced that's right. There have been a few statements made by a few individuals that are racist but at the same time there has been a systematic campaign by supporters of Israel to represent anti-Zionism as anti-semiticism. They are not the same. The policies of land seizure and ethnic cleansing by the Israeli government are an expression of Zionism and have rightly been condemned as unacceptable. That is not anti-semitism; it is in many ways a position of opposition to the racism of the Israeli government.

2. On bullying. I agree with that. The attitude of some on the left wing of the Labour Party towards those who have different views is appalling and in my view incompatible with a socialist outlook on the world, which should be based on an attitude of compassion and goodwill to all. Where momentum take their hostile, heartless and sometimes vicious approach towards others they are betraying the true principles that underly socialist values.

3. Their political views make them unelectable, for whatever reasons. Sadly I think this is also true and reflects badly on the state of our democracy in which the wealthy owners of media outlets have such an influence over the public. As Marx repeatedly argues, real power lies with the economic system and its controllers, so there is only a limited amount that politicians will be permitted to do in achieving equality and social justice. It may seem like a surrender but it is better to focus on what gains are achieveable than to 'tilt at windmills.'

What is missing from your analysis, however, is any critique of policies and this is a consistent theme from right wing voices here on this forum and elsewhere. Plenty of mud-slinging about metropolitan bubbles etc but nothing of any substance by way of criticism of left wing policies. Before the election I asked a few of the more sensible right wing voices on here what their proposed solution might be for the chronic underfunding of social care and other public services, and the answers I got were generally 'That is a really difficult question.' Yes it is, but unless an answer is given then the run down of public services will continue, and we are presently seeing very starkly the consequences of underfunding our health and social care services. For all their faults, Momentum and the like to have a solution to propose and it is one that is certainly worthy of proper debate.

[TheFamilyCat]

One other thing. Who does read the Sun?

34,000,000 people, according to this.

https://www.newsworks.org.uk/the-sun

[AndrewJB]

To be fair AB I am a lifelong voter of Labour and it’s pretty easy for me to come up with plenty of examples of what is wrong with Momentum so it’s not going to be that hard for those who are more right wing than me !

Let’s start with :
1) proven anti Semitic
2) proven bullying
3) and if we want to get more complex a complete lack of self awareness of what the public perception of who they are and what they stand for....ask the vast majority of the general public this question and it will not be a pretty answer. Ask that same general public what they believe has been the main reasons for the demise of the Labour Party and JC and Momentum will be the main reasons mentioned. (And it matters not whether this is accurate or not)

The founder and current leader of Momentum is Jewish. Anti Semitic behaviour will get you kicked out of Momentum. There might be some anti Semites in Momentum, but the organisation itself is definitely not. To put this into perspective, out of all the accusations and press coverage of antiSemitism within the Labour Party, only one person has been charged by police. That’s not a “party rife with antiSemitism”. It’s a subject curiously absent from the news since Corbyn announced he was going. You could say it’s done its job.

The claims of bullying - I’m not a member, so not something I’ve experienced. The people I know who are members are decent ordinary people. The poster “If it be your will” who was also a leave advocate was a member, and without a bullying nature. I’m sure some members have crossed the line between political passion, and bullying, but I wouldn’t say the organisation itself is. Some Labour MPs have blamed the organisation for orchestrating deselection attempts (often without evidence), and the same MPs have demanded people be expelled from the party, so effectively wanting one rule for themselves and a different one for others. You could have a point regarding bullying (I don’t know), but to put it in perspective there isn’t a culture of bullying, and nobody has committed suicide (as happened in the Young Tories some years back).

Public perception has been negative. The question remains how did these perceptions arise? How, for example, did you conclude that Momentum is anti-Semitic? Why do many people describe them as “far left”? If you go to their website you won’t find a Marxist wish list, but a set of entirely reasonable aims. We already know that Labour Party figures attacked the movement because they supported Corbyn, and that Tories feared them because of their campaigning potential, so I would say the public’s perception has been informed by these attacks more so than what the movement itself has done.

[TVC15]

I’m not getting it a long debate with you.
As you well know there has been several cases of anti semitism that have arose parallel to the growth of momentum - before JC and momentum this had not been an issue for the Labour Party. There is a reason why Starmer has said this is his no 1 priority.
As for bullying to try and deny that this has not been present in the last few years is pretty ridiculous. There are many many examples of lifelong labour members and supporters who have evidenced this and a number resigned on the back of it.

And finally you can’t blame the press for every single thing that is wrong with the Labour Party. I admire your loyalty and all that but whatever it was that they were trying to build did not work..for lots of reasons and Momentum did not work either.

But as said let’s agree to disagree.

[bobinho]

At a risk of bringing this debate to its base level, How can someone be a member of the Labour Party, be a supporter of the momentum movement AND be anti-Semitic? Surely the two things are at odds with each other?

If the basics are out of kilter, the whole thing thereafter loses credibility doesn’t it?

[TVC15]

At a risk of bringing this debate to its base level, How can someone be a member of the Labour Party, be a supporter of the momentum movement AND be anti-Semitic? Surely the two things are at odds with each other?

If the basics are out of kilter, the whole thing thereafter loses credibility doesn’t it?

I don’t think it was part of the official eligibility criteria !
It’s more that the massive increase in membership which took place under JC meant that it was inevitable that more extreme views shall we say sneaked into the Labour Party.
Not sure all the vetting was strict because the priority of the party was to get numbers up and try and put this down to JC popularity

Thereafter it was the terrible way that the party dealt with the issue that led to them being described as anti Semitic and that reputation pretty much has stuck whatever they have tried to do to get rid of it.
For some people that reputation will now be there forever whatever Starmer does.

[Colburn_Claret]

Speaking of the massive increase in membership, what was the demographic of these new members. Mostly students, through the student unions. People who are naturally more left wing, as most of us were when we were young. I seem to remember, though I might be mistaken, that they brought in a special cheap membership rate for students. It all helped in the rise of Momentum.
As for bullying in the constituency parties, Frank Field, and many other old school moderate Socialists spoke about the bullying and toxic atmosphere these new members brought to the party. Many of these same moderate MPs faced deselection, just because they were against the extremes that Momentum and these new members wanted.
As many others have said, the Labour party was leaving its traditional supporters. Many Labour voters didn't want to move to the left, even if they couldn't stand the Tories. I don't think that has changed today, or ever will. A far left Labour party is unelectable and always will be.

[Devils_Advocate]

Labours traditional voters left Labour and not the other way round. Labour has always been about unity, equality and breaking down barriers which the working class folk of places like Burnley relied on to stand up to the rich and powerful elite

nationalistic populism and small minded bigotry and xenophobia sold by the right wing to divide and conquer seems to matter more to some of the old Labour voters and Im glad the Labour party doesn't represent these kind of views

You may think you are on the winning side voting for the Tory's but you are gonna lose in real terms just as much as the Labour voters are from having these self serving charlatans in power

[AndrewJB]

I’m not getting it a long debate with you.
As you well know there has been several cases of anti semitism that have arose parallel to the growth of momentum - before JC and momentum this had not been an issue for the Labour Party. There is a reason why Starmer has said this is his no 1 priority.
As for bullying to try and deny that this has not been present in the last few years is pretty ridiculous. There are many many examples of lifelong labour members and supporters who have evidenced this and a number resigned on the back of it.

And finally you can’t blame the press for every single thing that is wrong with the Labour Party. I admire your loyalty and all that but whatever it was that they were trying to build did not work..for lots of reasons and Momentum did not work either.

But as said let’s agree to disagree.

Starmer hasn’t taken a different line on this than Corbyn already took.

I should also clarify, I’m not blaming the rightwing press for everything. I’ve already said the failure of the party to unite behind the leader was at least equally the cause of reduced popularity. The party will have to do better with getting their messages across too. Momentum will probably be given a key role in that.

[AndrewJB]

Speaking of the massive increase in membership, what was the demographic of these new members. Mostly students, through the student unions. People who are naturally more left wing, as most of us were when we were young. I seem to remember, though I might be mistaken, that they brought in a special cheap membership rate for students. It all helped in the rise of Momentum.
As for bullying in the constituency parties, Frank Field, and many other old school moderate Socialists spoke about the bullying and toxic atmosphere these new members brought to the party. Many of these same moderate MPs faced deselection, just because they were against the extremes that Momentum and these new members wanted.
As many others have said, the Labour party was leaving its traditional supporters. Many Labour voters didn't want to move to the left, even if they couldn't stand the Tories. I don't think that has changed today, or ever will. A far left Labour party is unelectable and always will be.

Here’s an article on the membership surge: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/th ... 73141.html

It begs the question, where did you get your information, or did you just make it up? Just like the “far left” description, of policies that wouldn’t look out of place in Germany’s centre right government.

[Colburn_Claret]

Here’s an article on the membership surge: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/th ... 73141.html

It begs the question, where did you get your information, or did you just make it up? Just like the “far left” description, of policies that wouldn’t look out of place in Germany’s centre right government.

That article paints the demograph of a particular cp, it doesn't address the demographic of the new members anywhere. They might well average 53 in age, it might well have been 58 before the surge in membership, which is my contention. This doesn't answer the question.

[TheFamilyCat]

I'm not sure how much influence Starmer, or the Labour Party will have on the next GE. When the dust settles on the CV-19 crisis, the government will rightly be judged on how they handled it. If, in the end they did a good job, they will win the next GE and vice versa.

[Stayingup]

Labours traditional voters left Labour and not the other way round. Labour has always been about unity, equality and breaking down barriers which the working class folk of places like Burnley relied on to stand up to the rich and powerful elite

nationalistic populism and small minded bigotry and xenophobia sold by the right wing to divide and conquer seems to matter more to some of the old Labour voters and Im glad the Labour party doesn't represent these kind of views

You may think you are on the winning side voting for the Tory's but you are gonna lose in real terms just as much as the Labour voters are from having these self serving charlatans in power

Labour in the past was the choice of most working class people. But now Labour is unrecognisable from the party it was and mainly represents a metro elite and the bureaucracy. Meantime has standards of living have increased people have started to ask would I prefer to spend my money how I want or let the government decide where it should be spent. And often that could be construed as mis - spent. Its not a question of winni g side although the people won the Brexit 'war' with whole of the countries bureaucracy and most of the media arraigned against them. Thats Democracy in action.

[tiger76]

Away from the bickering the shadow cabinet's been announced.

Labour leadership hopeful Lisa Nandy has been appointed shadow foreign secretary in Keir Starmer's new shadow cabinet.

Other appointments include Anneliese Dodds as shadow chancellor and Nick Thomas-Symonds as shadow home secretary.

Rachel Reeves has been appointed as the shadow chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Jonathan Ashworth stays as shadow health secretary.

Nick Brown has been re-appointed chief whip and Angela Smith remains shadow leader of the Lords.

More announcements on Sir Keir's team are expected on Monday.

Emily Thornberry, former shadow foreign secretary, has not yet been appointed to a role but remains in the shadow Cabinet.

It was all going so well until the last sentence,surely he's not entertaining the idea of keeping Thornberry in the Shadow cabinet.

Big promotion for Lisa Nandy that's wise,no mention of Rebecca Long-Bailey,but i'd imagine she'll be given something.

[AndrewJB]

Labour in the past was the choice of most working class people. But now Labour is unrecognisable from the party it was and mainly represents a metro elite and the bureaucracy. Meantime has standards of living have increased people have started to ask would I prefer to spend my money how I want or let the government decide where it should be spent. And often that could be construed as mis - spent. Its not a question of winni g side although the people won the Brexit 'war' with whole of the countries bureaucracy and most of the media arraigned against them. Thats Democracy in action.

If we test your statements against reality, they don’t hold up. You say Labour no longer represents the working person? Labour’s last manifesto set out to increase rights for working people, invest in green industry, spread investment away from London, as well as building more council houses, funding schools and the NHS better, and increasing the minimum wage. A whole raft of things for working people. Far more than what the Tories promised. In what way is that “not being there for working people”?

[RingoMcCartney]

Looks like theyve found a replacement for Diane Abbot.

5 minutes into the job!

'It's ok for people with big houses to say that': Labour's new deputy leader Angela Rayner blasts Matt Hancock for saying people shouldn't sunbathe on lockdown


Perhaps, someone needs to remind her about her newly elected leaders 1.75 million quid place in Islington!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ncock.html

[AndrewJB]

Looks like theyve found a replacement for Diane Abbot.

5 minutes into the job!

'It's ok for people with big houses to say that': Labour's new deputy leader Angela Rayner blasts Matt Hancock for saying people shouldn't sunbathe on lockdown


Perhaps, someone needs to remind her about her newly elected leaders 1.75 million quid place in Islington!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ncock.html

Do you think Starmer would call a £250k salary “chicken feed” like Johnson once did?

[Bosscat]

Do you think Starmer would call a £250k salary “chicken feed” like Johnson once did?

Its Sir Keir Starmer to you AJB

[RingoMcCartney]

Do you think Starmer would call a £250k salary “chicken feed” like Johnson once did?

In public? Doubt it!

But what's that got to do with Angela Raynors severe case of Foot In Mouth Disease!?

Labour -

Used to be the Working class party.

Now it's an Islington Dinner Party.

[jrgbfc]

Looks like theyve found a replacement for Diane Abbot.

5 minutes into the job!

'It's ok for people with big houses to say that': Labour's new deputy leader Angela Rayner blasts Matt Hancock for saying people shouldn't sunbathe on lockdown


Perhaps, someone needs to remind her about her newly elected leaders 1.75 million quid place in Islington!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ncock.html

I'd be more concerned with how your beloved Tories are bungling the current crisis tbh Ringo. How's the testing and PPE coming along?

[AndrewJB]

Its Sir Keir Starmer to you AJB

I was told he prefers people not use the "sir" bit.

[Devils_Advocate]

We found a replacement for Dianne Abbot ages ago in the Tory cabinet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYi217FEnYg

[TheFamilyCat]

In public? Doubt it!

But what's that got to do with Angela Raynors severe case of Foot In Mouth Disease!?

Labour -

Used to be the Working class party.

Now it's an Islington Dinner Party.

I don't think there was too much wrong in the point she was making (probably didn't need to throw in the inadequate housing bit) but no surprise that you chose to focus on just one line.

[Colburn_Claret]

If we test your statements against reality, they don’t hold up. You say Labour no longer represents the working person? Labour’s last manifesto set out to increase rights for working people, invest in green industry, spread investment away from London, as well as building more council houses, funding schools and the NHS better, and increasing the minimum wage. A whole raft of things for working people. Far more than what the Tories promised. In what way is that “not being there for working people”?

without saying so, you paint this image of downtrodden working class man, flat cap and whippets, who dofts his hat to the local gentry, while trying to fit his 6 kids into 2 bedrooms.
The reality is, working class man has more disposable income than at anytime in history, ever. He drives a nice car, enjoys holidays abroad, and most of them probably own their own home. Labour doesn't offer these working class men anything. A party of minority groups and unemployed. You don't win GE when you only appeal to a narrow base like that.
I don't need to go into, again, the dangers of Labours election promise costs. Its not that I wouldn't like to see more council houses, but the cost is beyond the means of government and councils, which is why it is incumbent on new estate builders to incorporate social housing as part of the contract. Its the only affordable way to provide housing for all.
The Tory plan too early certain departments out of London will be just as beneficial as spreading investment.

As it is the costs of the coronavirus is going to scupper the plans of whichever party is in power. None of the necessary steps taken are invested, so a lot of either governments flexibility has gone.

[RingoMcCartney]

I'd be more concerned with how your beloved Tories are bungling the current crisis tbh Ringo. How's the testing and PPE coming along?

Since you ask, According to the latest opinion polls the majority of the British people believe the government is handling pretty good.



https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... s-its-gove

For the first time in nearly a decade, Britain approves of its government

More dramatically still, the latest YouGov data shows, that as a result of the coronavirus crisis, the government now has net positive approval ratings for the first time in almost a decade.

The results show that 52% of Britons approve of the government’s record, compared to just half that number (26%) who disapprove.

A lot of this shift has come from Labour voters, with over a fifth (22%) now saying they approve of the government’s performance, despite not voting for it just four months ago.

This current net approval figure of +26 is the highest that YouGov has ever recorded in the 1,400 times we have asked the question since 2003.

The thread is about labour and I just thought I'd pass comment on Rayners first day in her new job!

She's obviously not seen Sir Keirs "big house" then.

[AndrewJB]

without saying so, you paint this image of downtrodden working class man, flat cap and whippets, who dofts his hat to the local gentry, while trying to fit his 6 kids into 2 bedrooms.
The reality is, working class man has more disposable income than at anytime in history, ever. He drives a nice car, enjoys holidays abroad, and most of them probably own their own home. Labour doesn't offer these working class men anything. A party of minority groups and unemployed. You don't win GE when you only appeal to a narrow base like that.
I don't need to go into, again, the dangers of Labours election promise costs. Its not that I wouldn't like to see more council houses, but the cost is beyond the means of government and councils, which is why it is incumbent on new estate builders to incorporate social housing as part of the contract. Its the only affordable way to provide housing for all.
The Tory plan too early certain departments out of London will be just as beneficial as spreading investment.

As it is the costs of the coronavirus is going to scupper the plans of whichever party is in power. None of the necessary steps taken are invested, so a lot of either governments flexibility has gone.

I didn't say anything about flat caps or whippets. I gave you a list of things Labour offer to working people - all recent and relevant things, and you're still insisting on this fiction that Labour don't offer anything to working people? It's in black and white on their manifesto.

You talk about the cost of building council houses, but not of the cost of not building council houses. They're needed, and it's an investment. Just build them.

[RingoMcCartney]

Starmer’s victory means that 11 of the last 12 Labour leaders went to selective or private school.

Of The Few, Not The Many.

[TheFamilyCat]

Looks like theyve found a replacement for Diane Abbot.

5 minutes into the job!

'It's ok for people with big houses to say that': Labour's new deputy leader Angela Rayner blasts Matt Hancock for saying people shouldn't sunbathe on lockdown


Perhaps, someone needs to remind her about her newly elected leaders 1.75 million quid place in Islington!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ncock.html

I can't believe you're criticising her when she has a life-threatening virus. Appalling timing, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[claretonthecoast1882]

I can't believe you're criticising her when she has a life-threatening virus. Appalling timing, you should be ashamed of yourself.

I take it you have already said this many times on here to those criticising Johnson and you yourself haven’t criticised him ?

[Devils_Advocate]

Kier Starmer was the son of a nurse and tool maker with four brothers/sisters. He passed his 11+ to get into a free voluntary aided grammar school (taking an 11+ to try and get into a grammar school was pretty standard across the middle and working classes in those days but probably not so common for the rich elite who ended up at places like Eton)

The school became a private fee paying school whist Starmer was already attending which is hardly something to criticise both him or the Labour party for but some will

Starmer from his more humble beginnings worked hard and made it into the law profession and continued to work hard and move upwards. From his teenage years through to today he was always involved in Labour politics and the kind of work he took on as a lawyer often reflected this.

Starmer is another example of how if you work hard and take every chance you get you can make something a lot more of your life and prove that you don't have to be a public school toff to get on in business and politics

The party of aspiration and opportunity is what the Labour party is about and it's really sad that people who support the likes of Johnson, Ress-Mogg and Farage use wealth and success as a stick to beat Labour with even if people like Starmer and Corbyn are using the position they have forged for themselves to try and look after the working classes who may need support and help.

[evensteadiereddie]

Beautifully put, DA.
I love how the Mail and its disciples hate the idea of an ordinary bloke from an ordinary family becoming a top lawyer, earning the rewards that go with it and, gasp, buying an expensive, by Burnley standards, house. Funny but these guys used to cream themselves over Thatcher doing exactly the same thing.
Mind you, at least its a house and not a "bubble" or " ivory tower" - both terms used under strict copyright, of course.
I've heard Starmer even wears shoes ! Traitor !
He has a car ! Hang the ******* !

[TheFamilyCat]

Kier Starmer was the son of a nurse and tool maker with four brothers/sisters. He passed his 11+ to get into a free voluntary aided grammar school (taking an 11+ to try and get into a grammar school was pretty standard across the middle and working classes in those days but probably not so common for the rich elite who ended up at places like Eton)

The school became a private fee paying school whist Starmer was already attending which is hardly something to criticise both him or the Labour party for but some will

Starmer from his more humble beginnings worked hard and made it into the law profession and continued to work hard and move upwards. From his teenage years through to today he was always involved in Labour politics and the kind of work he took on as a lawyer often reflected this.

Starmer is another example of how if you work hard and take every chance you get you can make something a lot more of your life and prove that you don't have to be a public school toff to get on in business and politics

The party of aspiration and opportunity is what the Labour party is about and it's really sad that people who support the likes of Johnson, Ress-Mogg and Farage use wealth and success as a stick to beat Labour with even if people like Starmer and Corbyn are using the position they have forged for themselves to try and look after the working classes who may need support and help.

If you are going to copy and paste directly from The Sun I think it is only right that you reference your source.

[evensteadiereddie]

[jrgbfc]

Gotta love the irony of Tories having a pop at someone like Keir Starmer for going to a private school, when their heroes are the likes of Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Mogg.

[aggi]

Momentum is a bit more than a political entity though isn't it? I think most people voted Tory at the last couple of GE's because they felt it would make them financially better off long term. Most people dont see the party they voted for as anything to be emotionally attached to. Can see the pro's and cons of having them in government etc, but it's a bit different with the momentum arm of the labour party.
It's on full view on here, but even more so on other social media platforms.
The blind devotion, and the defence of every slight criticism of Corbyn and momentum is really weird.
You can only blame Rupert Murdoch and every news outlet that doesn't toe the line for so long, before normal people start to see through the facade
Labour have had some serious issues throughout the last couple of campaign's (their own prejudices, anti semitism, the royal family, anyone privately educated etc) the inability to do simple maths at the top level of the party. Proclaiming to be staunch and forthright, then having complete about turns on party policy to try and gain a few voters (Brexit) and offering the world on a stick to try and mobilise people who traditionally dont do politics.
I know full well the response to this post will be along the lines of "you read the sun/daily mail/mein kampf" etc, because that has been the answer to every perceived slight for the past 4 or 5 years, but if labour are going to get in touch with the ordinary man, then they need to look a bit closer to home.
And I doubt very much the tories are terrified of momentum. They have been an absolute gift to them, and allowed them to get away with blunder after blunder, because most people didn't have a credible option at the ballot box.
I'd hazard a guess the next GE wont be such a one sided hammering as the previous one

I don't think this is unique to Labour and Momentum. I'm sure you've seen on here some posters who talk about their political party like a football club with constant references to "we won, you lost" and a list of their "victories". The refusal to accept that your party can do any wrong is embarrassing for many.

[RingoMcCartney]

I can't believe you're criticising her when she has a life-threatening virus. Appalling timing, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Now then. I made my post around 9.30 last night. I don't know who you're referring to when you say "she" whether its Diane Abbot or Angela Raynor. If its subsequently, emerged that either of them has developed the virus since I posted then , obviously, I wish who ever it is well and a speedy recovery.

I referred to both women without any knowledge of either of their health only on relevant comments one of them had made.

Unlike the some of the comments on the thread titled "PM in hospital " which has quite rightly been deleted. Due to crass , callous and repulsive posts from a handful of partisan far left loons. Who were making totally inappropriate remarks on hearing the news that Boris Johnson had been hospitalised.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

[TheFamilyCat]

Now then. I made my post around 9.30 last night. I don't know who you're referring to when you say "she" whether its Diane Abbot or Angela Raynor. If its subsequently, emerged that either of them has developed the virus since I posted then , obviously, I wish who ever it is well and a speedy recovery.

I referred to both women without any knowledge of either of their health only on relevant comments one of them had made.

Unlike the some of the comments on the thread titled "PM in hospital " which has quite rightly been deleted. Due to crass , callous and repulsive posts from a handful of partisan far left loons. Who were making totally inappropriate remarks on hearing the news that Boris Johnson had been hospitalised.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

You should probably read the story that you posted the link to then.

[RingoMcCartney]

You should probably read the story that you posted the link to then.

Perhaps I should. My mistake.

Perhaps , those shouting "appalling timing, you should be ashamed of yourself" when someone is actually unaware of a politician's health. Should wind their neck in , after repeatedly doing what they wrongly accused others of. While in full knowledge that their target is poorly.

Glass houses.

[aggi]

I’m not getting it a long debate with you.
As you well know there has been several cases of anti semitism that have arose parallel to the growth of momentum - before JC and momentum this had not been an issue for the Labour Party. There is a reason why Starmer has said this is his no 1 priority.
As for bullying to try and deny that this has not been present in the last few years is pretty ridiculous. There are many many examples of lifelong labour members and supporters who have evidenced this and a number resigned on the back of it.

And finally you can’t blame the press for every single thing that is wrong with the Labour Party. I admire your loyalty and all that but whatever it was that they were trying to build did not work..for lots of reasons and Momentum did not work either.

But as said let’s agree to disagree.

This isn't really true. A weird thing is that a lot of the antisemitism that came up was actually historic stuff that only came to light when Corbyn was in charge and people started investigating. It was attributed to Corbyn and Momentum because it was convenient but that wasn't the reality.

I'm not saying there wasn't an issue with Corbyn and his response to it but it didn't just start recently.

[RingoMcCartney]

I take it you have already said this many times on here to those criticising Johnson and you yourself haven’t criticised him ?

This.