Labour Leadership Election

[TVC15]

This isn't really true. A weird thing is that a lot of the antisemitism that came up was actually historic stuff that only came to light when Corbyn was in charge and people started investigating. It was attributed to Corbyn and Momentum because it was convenient but that wasn't the reality.

I'm not saying there wasn't an issue with Corbyn and his response to it but it didn't just start recently.

Are you saying it was an issue for the Labour Party or not before JC / Monentum ?
I can’t recall it ever being an issue for them prior to this.

And I am not saying that there were not incidents / cases before JC but it was never an issue for the party so either they dealt with them differently, it was a lot less prevalent, or they kept it out of the media (or probably all 3).

In reality it’s highly likely that there has been anti Semitic issues in all the political parties at some point just like there will have been other forms of racism.
But for the Jewish leaders / community to come out against JC / the Labour Party in the way that they did does not sound to me like it was no different to previous parties. And there are some wide held views that this rise was linked to the more extreme views / nature of Momentum and some of the supporters it attracted.

I suspect we will never know the reality of it unless some kind of independent review is undertaken by Starmer which is unlikely given it just drags out the whole story for years to come.

I don’t think JC or the vast majority of the party are anti Semitic in any way whatsoever - I just think they dealt with it very badly and agree that once the media get hold of something like this you are in a no win situation with whatever you say or do.

[Damo]

No place in the shadow cabinet for Richard Burgon

That's s decent start for Starmer

[claretandy]

No place in the shadow cabinet for Richard Burgon

That's s decent start for Starmer

That's one village that's got it's idiot back.

[evensteadiereddie]

So you'll move out to make room for him ?

[AndrewJB]

Are you saying it was an issue for the Labour Party or not before JC / Monentum ?
I can’t recall it ever being an issue for them prior to this.

And I am not saying that there were not incidents / cases before JC but it was never an issue for the party so either they dealt with them differently, it was a lot less prevalent, or they kept it out of the media (or probably all 3).

In reality it’s highly likely that there has been anti Semitic issues in all the political parties at some point just like there will have been other forms of racism.
But for the Jewish leaders / community to come out against JC / the Labour Party in the way that they did does not sound to me like it was no different to previous parties. And there are some wide held views that this rise was linked to the more extreme views / nature of Momentum and some of the supporters it attracted.

I suspect we will never know the reality of it unless some kind of independent review is undertaken by Starmer which is unlikely given it just drags out the whole story for years to come.

I don’t think JC or the vast majority of the party are anti Semitic in any way whatsoever - I just think they dealt with it very badly and agree that once the media get hold of something like this you are in a no win situation with whatever you say or do.

I think one problem in terms of understanding the scale of anti-Semitism in the UK, and the Labour Party itself before Corbyn became leader is that it wasn't reported much in the media. You can see from my first link that anti-Semitism was identified as a growing problem in the UK in 2015 (while Miliband was leader of the Labour Party), and that the problem was seen as biggest on the right wing of politics. As the second link shows, between 2015 and 2017, anti-Semitic opinions went down among Labour Party members, and when you contrast it to members of other parties, it is lower than the Tories and LibDems (in both 2015 and 2017 studies).

One thing to bear in mind with this, is there are a lot of people within the Labour Party who support Palestinian freedom. Sometimes that has crossed the line to become anti-Semitic, and there are also some people who equate opposition to Israel at anti-Semitic. Both are wrong, but this has muddied the water a great deal.

There is already an Equalities Commission investigation into anti-Semitism within the party, so we can see what that comes back with. But you can see how the press can create a narrative that could be factually wrong, or at least misleading - and that has consequences for our democracy. With enough senior Labour people joining in, it became a "truth".


https://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uplo ... r-2015.pdf

https://skwawkbox.org/2018/03/29/exclus ... er-corbyn/

[Damo]

I've said this several times, but never seem to get a reply.
Jeremy Corbyn showed how seriously he takes anti-semitism when he appointed Naz Shah as the shadow equality minister

[KateR]

Why do you think the Sun have decided to run a big story today on Starmer being rich and do you think this matters?

And on the back of this what do you think of a couple of people on this thread parroting on about Starmer being middle class, wealthy, from greater London and being knighted?

Sorry for the late reply I took a weekend off from all of this.

I know, and you know why they run these things and no I don't think it matters, it's how he performs plus obviously previous performance. Since I can't comment on previous performance and the fact there is a body that looks at all candidates and elects, that's good enough for me, what matters is what he does in the future, not the day or day after he was elected. Yet you knew, we all knew these things would be said, they were said before the final selection, so it was not a surprise the he won and that they would run these headlines was it?

Similarly middle class, wealthy are irrelevant points, although anyone who has done well ina chosen profession is a good indication that they are willing to work and therefore a plus for me. Greater London is not a reason to be chosen or ignored but I can see some sense in people from the North wanting a change, probably a good PR exercise but in the end of little value to the actual way someone will perform. Being knighted should be recognition of the efforts/work someone has done but again to me irrelevant as to why you are elected, in a way it's like reverse snobbery, when people complain about that.

My original post to you though was around the "logical/constructive thinking" and pushing this line, like others do on here when people don't agree with them, voters always become stupid to some when a vote doesn't go the way they voted and I do object to that. It's the constant line of, certain things happen only because some form of news outlet tells them something that annoys me, yet the same people constantly provide links from a certain outlet plus anyone else, who becomes an expert in their eye, simply because they dovetail nicely.

[AndrewJB]

I've said this several times, but never seem to get a reply.
Jeremy Corbyn showed how seriously he takes anti-semitism when he appointed Naz Shah as the shadow equality minister

Naz Shah isn't anti-Semitic.

[RingoMcCartney]

Naz Shah: My words were anti-Semitic

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-engla ... s-36802075

[Devils_Advocate]

My original post to you though was around the "logical/constructive thinking" and pushing this line, like others do on here when people don't agree with them, voters always become stupid to some when a vote doesn't go the way they voted and I do object to that. It's the constant line of, certain things happen only because some form of news outlet tells them something that annoys me, yet the same people constantly provide links from a certain outlet plus anyone else, who becomes an expert in their eye, simply because they dovetail nicely.

I've cut out a lot of your post because its an area where we agree so thought better just to focus on the last bit and try and explain myself better cos I believe you misunderstand me

The reference I make to critical thinking in this context is not about people who think or vote differently but people who aren't prepared to think about what they read and challenge it internally before taking it as gospel.

If I see something on Twitter that reflects how I feel and validates my position the first thing I do is check the person who has sent it. I then look at how many other people are pushing that opinion. I then look at the discussion and read up on peoples views from both side. If its not clearly supported by blue tick respectable commentators who have 1000's of followers or if there is a good opposing view in the discussion or even if it is someone who I follow and trust but that person is the only person pushing the opinion then I will not share it and I will not use it as a truth.

I am not a Labour member and have only voted for them twice out of six elections and the last one I would have voted for any party to the left of the Tories if it stopped them getting in. If you follow my posts my issue isn't with peoples political views but it is that people just push and share lies and propaganda that with the tiniest amount of research and an open mind can be proved to be at best unclear and at the worst complete bullsh*t

I have already seen articles by the Sun, Mail and the Express and right wing journalist/opinion piece contributors starting the campaign of hate against Starmer and my dig is at the people who will just believe it at face value without and critical thinking and will just share it around like a puppet

My disgust is the way we have become so tribal that our leaders dont even need to pretend to be telling the truth because telling the right lie and winning the argument is all that matters.

I am not always right but I try and approach my views like a scientist and prove myself wrong before I tell others something is true

[KateR]

DA,
thank you for the clarity.
My disgust is the way we have become so tribal that our leaders dont even need to pretend to be telling the truth because telling the right lie and winning the argument is all that matters. I agree, you don't have to be a leader and the lie, it equally applies to dogma and numerous posters, which there is a lot of on here.

I am not always right but I try and approach my views like a scientist and prove myself wrong before I tell others something is true It's a good approach, I would not view myself as reviewing like a scientist and have definitely been wrong before, I also don't mind asking and learning, to many are afraid that it would be a show of ignorance to actual ask regarding something except for the usual, give me facts and attack others views. I personally think debate is good but insults are not (even though I have fallen in to that trap myself) and I do get frustrated by a certain contingent here, not disgust, sometimes the frustration is in myself for not getting my point/thoughts over well enough for someone to respond in a civil manner.

In regard to Sir KS, I really don't know him well enough to make any comments, I will however be listening to him and am sure given time I will form an opinion, plus I wish him the best of luck, it's a very tough job he has, just IMO of course.

[AndrewJB]

Naz Shah: My words were anti-Semitic

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-engla ... s-36802075

Indeed, but she is not. She apologised, and learned from the matter, unlike our Attorney General who used deeply offensive anti-Semitic language in a speech a year ago, and has not (as far as I'm aware) apologised. In the Tory Party, anti-Semitism is no bar to the top jobs.

As the link I provided above shows, in 2015 40% of Tory members polled subscribed to one or more anti-Semitic beliefs. Here's our previous brilliant speaker talking about Tory anti-Semitism to the Jewish Chronicle:

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/john ... s-1.496302

[RingoMcCartney]

Indeed, but she is not. She apologised, and learned from the matter, unlike our Attorney General who used deeply offensive anti-Semitic language in a speech a year ago, and has not (as far as I'm aware) apologised. In the Tory Party, anti-Semitism is no bar to the top jobs.

As the link I provided above shows, in 2015 40% of Tory members polled subscribed to one or more anti-Semitic beliefs. Here's our previous brilliant speaker talking about Tory anti-Semitism to the Jewish Chronicle:

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/john ... s-1.496302

Why do you feel Naz Shah felt the need to apologise Andrew?

[Sarum]

"I suspect we will never know the reality of it unless some kind of independent review is undertaken by Starmer which is unlikely given it just drags out the whole story for years to come".

TVC, there's an independent investigation well underway, as explained below. Hopefully the Labour party (and others) will learn from it...

I seldom comment on political threads because I genuinely don't have sufficient knowledge of/interest in political parties to give an informed opinion. Some years ago, however, whilst driving home to Wiltshire after a Burnley night match I listened to an interview with Ken Livingstone regarding accusations of antisemitism levelled against him. I don't have any connections with Jewish families or political parties but the topic was new to me and caught my interest. Over the following months every now and then the Ken L story would crop up on the radio and I would listen to the latest developments.

Since then a number of Jewish members of the Labour party have spoken about their experience of antisemitism from other party members; this led to an internal investigation. But, independently of that, as the Guardian article linked below explains, in May 2019 the Equality and Human Rights Commission "had placed Labour under formal investigation over whether the party had unlawfully discriminated against, harassed or victimised people because they were Jewish." Around the time of the General Election I heard it mentioned that approx 60 Labour party members had made statements to the Commission and that the outcome of investigation was expected mid 2020.

When answering questions in the run up to the GE about antisemitism I did hear Jeremy Corbyn reaffirm his view that antisemitism is abhorrent. He also said that under his leadership measures had been taken to combat antisemitism within the party. He also stated that members of the Jewish community had written him letters of support. Yet in the two interviews I heard/saw I didn't hear Jeremy Corbyn once acknowledge/recognise the importance of the Equality and Human Rights Commission's independent investigation: i.e. its importance to complainants, the public and, going forwards, to the Labour party itself.

I found this article online from the Guardian quite informative:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ed-to-know

[tiger76]

Final shadow cabinet line-up revealed,pretty good overall,but Thornberry shadow international trade secretary,David Lammy shadow justice secretary,and Rebecca Long-Bailey shadow education secretary,are the 3 that could prove problematic once the CV crisis has passed.

Bringing Ed Miliband back into frontline politics,he's shadow business secretary.Is an astute move.Ian Murray as shadow Scotland secretary was a no-brainer,Rosena Allen-Khan at shadow mental health makes sense,especially as she's going back to the NHS frontline in the coming days.

I'm stunned Lord Falconer shadow attorney general is still around i thought he'd been put to pasture,he'll bring experience that's true,but he also brings a lot of baggage from the Blair years,and if some people are correct the right wing press could have a field day,bringing up details of his past misdemeanours.

The rest i don't have enough knowledge to pass comment on yet,so i'll reserve my judgement until they've had some time in office.

Chakrabarti's gone as well,and i was right no place for Jess Phillips.

I'll give Keir a 7/10,a vast improvement on Corbyn's selections,but not perfect by any means.

[aggi]

Are you saying it was an issue for the Labour Party or not before JC / Monentum ?
I can’t recall it ever being an issue for them prior to this.

And I am not saying that there were not incidents / cases before JC but it was never an issue for the party so either they dealt with them differently, it was a lot less prevalent, or they kept it out of the media (or probably all 3).

In reality it’s highly likely that there has been anti Semitic issues in all the political parties at some point just like there will have been other forms of racism.
But for the Jewish leaders / community to come out against JC / the Labour Party in the way that they did does not sound to me like it was no different to previous parties. And there are some wide held views that this rise was linked to the more extreme views / nature of Momentum and some of the supporters it attracted.

I suspect we will never know the reality of it unless some kind of independent review is undertaken by Starmer which is unlikely given it just drags out the whole story for years to come.

I don’t think JC or the vast majority of the party are anti Semitic in any way whatsoever - I just think they dealt with it very badly and agree that once the media get hold of something like this you are in a no win situation with whatever you say or do.

It was an issue for the Labour Party before JC / Monentum . I think it was the 2015 election where Maureen Lipman said she wouldn't vote for Milliband due to anti-semitism and the Naz Shah one referenced above was back in 2014 or so.

There have always been issues with the labour party and what is anti-semitism and what is criticism of Israel and it can be very hard to split the two and I know for a lot of people criticism of one is criticism of the other.

It may have been a little worse under Corbyn and he was as ineffective as ever at getting things under control and getting his message across but the traditional media also played their part in blowing the story up and there were a lot of people on social media and the like who were more than willing to propagate any stories (whereas I suspect the same people wouldn't have cared so much about the islamophobia that the Tory party displayed as it was more in line with their views).

Your last line pretty much sums it up.

[AndrewJB]

Why do you feel Naz Shah felt the need to apologise Andrew?

She apologised because she caused offence. That's what normal people do when they cause offence. It doesn't matter whether or not she intended to cause offence. She did the decent thing and apologised anyway.

Has Suella Braverman ever apologised for the offence she caused? Nadine Dorries for her anti-Semitism? Rees Mogg for his? Did Johnson apologise for offending gay people, black people, women, and Muslim women? The difference is one of human decency.

[RingoMcCartney]

She apologised because she caused offence. That's what normal people do when they cause offence. It doesn't matter whether or not she intended to cause offence. She did the decent thing and apologised anyway.

Has Suella Braverman ever apologised for the offence she caused? Nadine Dorries for her anti-Semitism? Rees Mogg for his? Did Johnson apologise for offending gay people, black people, women, and Muslim women? The difference is one of human decency.

Which community in particular did she cause offence to, and why in particular, was the content of what she said, deemed so offensive , to warrant an apology Andrew?

[AndrewJB]

Which community in particular did she cause offence to, and why in particular, was the content of what she said, deemed so offensive , to warrant an apology Andrew?

They've all offended the Jewish community. Braverman used the term "cultural marxism" in a speech to a think tank. She refused to apologise, even after an attendee questioned her on its use. Dorries - the utter hyp0crite, though probably far too stupid to realise it - has banged on about George Soros funding the remain campaign, and referred to a Jewish LibDem MP - who is also a doctor - as "Doctor Death". And Rees Mogg has made a few dog whistle anti-Semitic comments about Soros, even going as far as suggesting he was a chief funder for the remain campaign. Shah shared a post created by an American Jewish man that, whether rightly or wrongly, offended some Jewish people in Britain. She apologised for that. Have any of the Tories I mentioned apologised? Where's the enquiry into the appalling levels of Islamophobia in the Tory Party? I suspect it's linked to their anti-Semitism.

[RingoMcCartney]

She had to apologise because she's an anti semite and , quite rightly called out for it.

Naz Shah: "My words were anti-Semitic"

[Devils_Advocate]

So when Johnson apologised last Nov for Islamophobia in the Tory party and "for all the hurt and offence that has been caused" it was because the Tory party is Islamophobic in the same way Shah is anti-Semitic.

[AndrewJB]

She had to apologise because she's an anti semite and , quite rightly called out for it.

Naz Shah: "My words were anti-Semitic"

Not; "I'm an anti-Semite."

As I've pointed out, Braverman, Dorries, Rees Mogg, (and I have no doubt the list is a lot longer), have all said, written or shared anti-Semitic things. Shah apologised. They haven't. The difference is in human decency.

[Bfcboyo]

Bringing Ed Miliband back into frontline politics,he's shadow business secretary.Is an astute move to keep the Tories in power for as long as possible.

[RingoMcCartney]

Not; "I'm an anti-Semite."

As I've pointed out, Braverman, Dorries, Rees Mogg, (and I have no doubt the list is a lot longer), have all said, written or shared anti-Semitic things. Shah apologised. They haven't. The difference is in human decency.

Ah aah! Ye olde "My words are anti semitic but I'm certainly no anti semite, me!" technique!

Oswald Mosely could've gone a long way if only he'd have used it. He'd be kicking himself Andrew.

Like you say she apologised, and theres no anti semite like a "humanly decent" one eh!?

Keep polishing it Andrew. Any glitter!? God loves a tryer!

[tiger76]

What's your gripe with Ed Miliband bfcboyo,Starmer's got to have some experience in his shadow team,and Miliband offers that in spades.

[ksrclaret]

Not; "I'm an anti-Semite."

As I've pointed out, Braverman, Dorries, Rees Mogg, (and I have no doubt the list is a lot longer), have all said, written or shared anti-Semitic things. Shah apologised. They haven't. The difference is in human decency.

Wasting your time. He'll never, ever, ever acknowledge what you've just posted about his heroes. The silence is deafening.

Needs a decent shag, does Ringo. Every time I log on his name is at the top of the board posting about politics.

[RingoMcCartney]

Wasting your time. He'll never, ever, ever acknowledge what you've just posted about his heroes. The silence is deafening.

Needs a decent shag, does Ringo. Every time I log on his name is at the top of the board posting about politics.

Simple, dont log on.

Everybody's Happy!

[AndrewJB]

Simple, dont log on.

Everybody's Happy!

Three Tory anti-Semites to one Labour. I guess you're winning!

[TVC15]

The “old I was banned from this board for posting racist comments, but I’m not really racist” technique.

If only Nick Griffin would have thought of that.

[RingoMcCartney]

The “old I was banned from this board for posting racist comments, but I’m not really racist” technique.

If only Nick Griffin would have thought of that.

Your assertion is as wrong as your utterly utterly
inappropriate timing.

Point scoring while the nation comes together and puts party politics to one side and hopes and prays that the Prime Minister makes a full recovery.

Please go away , you are despicable.

[TVC15]

Aaaah bless.

[Erasmus]

Ringo's crusade against point scoring. How delicious.

[TVC15]

Ringo's crusade against point scoring. How delicious.

Yep it takes a twisted mind that on a thread that is about the Labour election that he talks about bad taste and despicable timing etc without once ounce of self awareness that he has just spent the very same afternoon / evening posting more than any body else on this thread.

[AndrewJB]

"I suspect we will never know the reality of it unless some kind of independent review is undertaken by Starmer which is unlikely given it just drags out the whole story for years to come".

TVC, there's an independent investigation well underway, as explained below. Hopefully the Labour party (and others) will learn from it...

I seldom comment on political threads because I genuinely don't have sufficient knowledge of/interest in political parties to give an informed opinion. Some years ago, however, whilst driving home to Wiltshire after a Burnley night match I listened to an interview with Ken Livingstone regarding accusations of antisemitism levelled against him. I don't have any connections with Jewish families or political parties but the topic was new to me and caught my interest. Over the following months every now and then the Ken L story would crop up on the radio and I would listen to the latest developments.

Since then a number of Jewish members of the Labour party have spoken about their experience of antisemitism from other party members; this led to an internal investigation. But, independently of that, as the Guardian article linked below explains, in May 2019 the Equality and Human Rights Commission "had placed Labour under formal investigation over whether the party had unlawfully discriminated against, harassed or victimised people because they were Jewish." Around the time of the General Election I heard it mentioned that approx 60 Labour party members had made statements to the Commission and that the outcome of investigation was expected mid 2020.

When answering questions in the run up to the GE about antisemitism I did hear Jeremy Corbyn reaffirm his view that antisemitism is abhorrent. He also said that under his leadership measures had been taken to combat antisemitism within the party. He also stated that members of the Jewish community had written him letters of support. Yet in the two interviews I heard/saw I didn't hear Jeremy Corbyn once acknowledge/recognise the importance of the Equality and Human Rights Commission's independent investigation: i.e. its importance to complainants, the public and, going forwards, to the Labour party itself.

I found this article online from the Guardian quite informative:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ed-to-know

I can remember when that story first came out. Livingstone had been doorstopped by a reporter while leaving a function, and when Livingstone refused to give an interview the reporter said: "I'm just doing my job." Livingstone then told him this was an excuse used by concentration camp guards during WW2, and it was deemed as "no excuse." The reporter then said: "Do you know I'm Jewish?" and "that's a very insulting thing to say to me?"

Livingstone is a street fighter politician. He was never going to bend his knee to that reporter, or the press in general. And this helped defeat him three years later, all dragged up as him being "anti-Semitic." Livingstone isn't anti-Semitic, but his bullheaded attitude toward the issue allowed the press to paint him as one.

[aggi]

Your assertion is as wrong as your utterly utterly
inappropriate timing.

Point scoring while the nation comes together and puts party politics to one side and hopes and prays that the Prime Minister makes a full recovery.

Please go away , you are despicable.

I must admit, this really did make me laugh.

[RingoMcCartney]

Wasting your time. He'll never, ever, ever acknowledge what you've just posted about his heroes. The silence is deafening.

Needs a decent shag, does Ringo. Every time I log on his name is at the top of the board posting about politics.

Classic playing the man not the ball

[RingoMcCartney]

The “old I was banned from this board for posting racist comments, but I’m not really racist” technique.

If only Nick Griffin would have thought of that.

Some senses the gangs here

[RingoMcCartney]

The “old I was banned from this board for posting racist comments, but I’m not really racist” technique.

If only Nick Griffin would have thought of that.

Your assertion is as wrong as your utterly utterly
inappropriate timing.

Point scoring while the nation comes together and puts party politics to one side and hopes and prays that the Prime Minister makes a full recovery.

Please go away , you are despicable.

[RingoMcCartney]

Aaaah bless.

Bully showing his true colours

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo's crusade against point scoring. How delicious.

More come running to join in.

Posts getting "likes" as they pat each other on the back

[RingoMcCartney]

Yep it takes a twisted mind that on a thread that is about the Labour election that he talks about bad taste and despicable timing etc without once ounce of self awareness that he has just spent the very same afternoon / evening posting more than any body else on this thread.

Really getting going now!

[RingoMcCartney]

I must admit, this really did make me laugh.

Yep, the pack was out that night.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Is it Friday already?

[TVC15]

CoRINGO Virus

Definition :

Never stops spreading it’s sh-ite

Evidence of tendency to attack ethnic minorities

Very likely to come back and repeat (again and again and again)

Everybody is sick to back teeth of it

Likely to be more than one variation of it

World will be a better place without it

[TVC15]

Bully showing his true colours

That’s me

CoRINGO Virus

Definition :

Never stops spreading it’s sh-ite

Evidence of tendency to attack ethnic minorities

Very likely to come back and repeat (again and again and again)

Everybody is sick to back teeth of it

Likely to be more than one variation of it

World will be a better place without it

[dermotdermot]

I thought that the return of this thread might have something to do with today’s prime ministers question time where it seems that Corbyn the Deluded hasn’t quite taken it on board that he is no longer the leader. His intervention was totally unnecessary, simply reiterating a question that Kier Starmer had already asked about the delay in response to the pandemic. He didn’t ask any of these questions when he was sitting around ‘reflecting’ for the four months prior to his exit, so what validity do they have now. Will we ever see the back of him or does he intend to just plague his party forever, not giving the public the chance to just forget him and think about perhaps returning the Labour Party to power. It’s going to take a long time and, if he just hangs around, it will take even longer.

[dermotdermot]

And seeing Barry Gardiner’s stupid image on the webcam didn’t help either. They are the faces of failure and I wish that they’d just go away.

[tiger76]

I posted on the other thread,for his debut Starmer was very good,stuck to the issues and didn't get sidetracked by partisanship,thank goodness at last we've got an effective opposition that can hold the government to account,because by heavens they need holding to account.

[AndrewJB]

I see Ringo has resurrected the thread. Still nothing from him about Tory anti-Semitism, though he was insistent that Naz Shah was one. For anyone interested, here's an interview with the man who's tweet she shared which got her into the mess, and which she has since apologised for:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... sm-scanda/

Beyond the controversy here, it's an interesting insight into politics and Israel.

[AndrewJB]

I posted on the other thread,for his debut Starmer was very good,stuck to the issues and didn't get sidetracked by partisanship,thank goodness at last we've got an effective opposition that can hold the government to account,because by heavens they need holding to account.

I admire the way you look to facts to determine the truth, rather than inbuilt prejudice. However I think you're missing some facts if you think the opposition is only now properly opposing. If we put brexit to one side, Labour moved under the last leader from hardly opposing austerity, to calling it out for what it is. They moved from abstaining on key Windrush enabling legislation to absolutely opposing it. The change was huge - show me how the party didn't properly oppose the government, within the confines of being an opposition party. The manifestos were radically different from the previous years in terms of saying: "The path we have taken is wrong, and this is how we'll change it." There were lots of things wrong with the Labour Party under Corbyn, but it certainly did provide effective opposition.