PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

[HunterST_BFC]

PPE

this is real

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52319576

clapping won't help.

[thelaughingclaret]

What can actually be done about it though? What can the government do? It’s all well and good everyone saying “the Government should do more!” But no one has come up with any solution. You can’t just magic PPE out of thin air. I imagine most if not all ppe in this country is from abroad but with countries not exporting the same now and keeping things for themselves exactly how are the government meant to produce and or get hold of the amount of PPE needed? How? If these people in the NHS know a solution then please tell us. But all I read is boses saying “The government must do more” without anyone saying how this could be done. Part of the problem or part of the solution?

[HunterST_BFC]

There has been time.
Just no understanding.
Deemed "Non essential workers" already in place could have helped - but NO.

Little thought / action given - to me whatever Party this is wrong.

Warnings were there in advance.

[Taffy on the wing]

What can actually be done about it though? What can the government do? It’s all well and good everyone saying “the Government should do more!” But no one has come up with any solution. You can’t just magic PPE out of thin air. I imagine most if not all ppe in this country is from abroad but with countries not exporting the same now and keeping things for themselves exactly how are the government meant to produce and or get hold of the amount of PPE needed? How? If these people in the NHS know a solution then please tell us. But all I read is boses saying “The government must do more” without anyone saying how this could be done. Part of the problem or part of the solution?

By recruiting British industry to make them!..........WEEKS AGO!

[Damo]

Not wanting to make this thread about brexit, but It makes you wonder, how 40 years of letting the EU move British manufacturing abroad, has affected our response to things like ppe

[timshorts]

Not wanting to make this thread about brexit, but It makes you wonder, how 40 years of letting the EU move British manufacturing abroad, has affected our response to things like ppe

It has nothing to do with the EU. We choose to source our clothing from Bangladesh, India, Ethiopia China, the Philippines etc because the retailers can get away with people being paid 40p per hour or so.

[Grumps]

It could also be poor management in certain NHS trusts and certain care homes
East lancs NHS had to go to the press a few day to state that they had enough PPE in their hospitals, and a process in place to get more when needed. If they can do it, why Carnt other trusts?
I know of care homes who have enough PPE, and always have had, because it was ordered at the right time
It's not always the government's fault.

[Zlatan]

By recruiting British industry to make them!..........WEEKS AGO!

Exactly this.

However, unlike high tech high cost items like incubators which will attract businesses to respond (because there’s money in it for them) whereas a face mask which probably has a unit cost of a few pence is not as attractive to make, albeit probably a lot easier to design and fabricate. There are companies who have offered to make thousands of the face shields (which are also being made by crews of 3D printers at home) but that’s not a story. You can’t 3D print a paper mask, or a plastic apron so it doesn’t portray the “all in this together” narrative that is generated by the 3D printers or the F1 teams.

They managed to set up a hospital (well warehouse with beds) in a couple of weeks, they could have easily organised manufacture of PPE in just as short time, but there was no foresight that it was needed - like others have said, a combination of factors has caused that including NHS bosses not wanting to admit they dropped a ball and the government not taking the lead.

[Firthy]

It could also be poor management in certain NHS trusts and certain care homes
East lancs NHS had to go to the press a few day to state that they had enough PPE in their hospitals, and a process in place to get more when needed. If they can do it, why Carnt other trusts?
I know of care homes who have enough PPE, and always have had, because it was ordered at the right time
It's not always the government's fault.

Spot on. My wife was a nurse for over 40 years and this is exactly what she said. Many Trusts and care homes aren't having problems because they are run efficiently. A lot of it is down to poor management and planning. Especially in Private run care homes which are money making concerns and the owners/managers of them won't stock PPE equipment or pay what's needed to make sure they have enough.

I'm fed up watching the news and seeing the government getting blamed for everything. It was on the news this morning that one care home is telling it's staff, you only get one mask which has to last all day. This is down to the management of the care home not the government but you can bet the government will be blamed for any deaths.

It's a pity there aren't more trusts like East Lancs NHS.

[Siddo]

It could also be poor management in certain NHS trusts and certain care homes
East lancs NHS had to go to the press a few day to state that they had enough PPE in their hospitals, and a process in place to get more when needed. If they can do it, why Carnt other trusts?
I know of care homes who have enough PPE, and always have had, because it was ordered at the right time
It's not always the government's fault.

Are you being serious. My daughter in law, a GP on the East Lancs task force to combat shortages, spent all day yesterday driving to houses of kind local people who are making visors on their 3d printers. She then drove round East Lancs surgeries giving 1 or 2 out at a time. They have no ppe. Repeat, none.
She is wearing ppe she bought herself from Screwfix.
Thank God the government has told us they were ready for the virus, or we really would be in trouble.
Do you know that we in the NW are 2 weeks behind London. The worst is yet to come here, and we have no ppe now.
I've no political axe to grind but my daughter in law and my son in London, who dealt with 122 patients in a 14 hour day last week, are being put at risk by the government. The reason the EL trust has some ppe is that it hasn't yet been tested. However, IT there is full, and the average stay is 13 days.
My son is wearing goggles given to him by a local school and is wearing his own clothes. He was given one set of scrubs last week
Please don't defend the government, they just don't have the ability or wherewithal to cope with this.

[Grumps]

Are you being serious. My daughter in law, a GP on the East Lancs task force to combat shortages, spent all day yesterday driving to houses of kind local people who are making visors on their 3d printers. She then drove round East Lancs surgeries giving 1 or 2 out at a time. They have no ppe. Repeat, none.
She is wearing ppe she bought herself from Screwfix.
Thank God the government has told us they were ready for the virus, or we really would be in trouble.
Do you know that we in the NW are 2 weeks behind London. The worst is yet to come here, and we have no ppe now.
I've no political axe to grind but my daughter in law and my son in London, who dealt with 122 patients in a 14 hour day last week, are being put at risk by the government. The reason the EL trust has some ppe is that it hasn't yet been tested. However, IT there is full, and the average stay is 13 days.
My son is wearing goggles given to him by a local school and is wearing his own clothes. He was given one set of scrubs last week
Please don't defend the government, they just don't have the ability or wherewithal to cope with this.

Iam being totally serious, and not in the habit of making things up. The article regarding the trust is in the press, go and read it, plus I have family who work in the hospitals in question.
The care homes I speak about, I have first hand knowledge.
I will defend the government when it is right to do so, and not defend when it's right to.

[jojomk1]

It has nothing to do with the EU. We choose to source our clothing from Bangladesh, India, Ethiopia China, the Philippines etc because the retailers can get away with people being paid 40p per hour or so.

Given your scenario of 40p or so per hour, would you happily pay 20 times more for a product of similar quality

[Hipper]

Please don't defend the government, they just don't have the ability or wherewithal to cope with this.

Who does?

I'm sure they are doing their best in unprecedented circumstances but making mistakes/misjudgements along the way.

[tim_noone]

It has nothing to do with the EU. We choose to source our clothing from Bangladesh, India, Ethiopia China, the Philippines etc because the retailers can get away with people being paid 40p per hour or so.

More like 15p.

[tim_noone]

PPE

this is real

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52319576

clapping won't help.

So the link relates to the Clapping.....as Happened last night on the news channels...now I may be mistaken but this link and last nights news bulletin shows NHS Workers all grouped together. NO ppe in sight...NO social Distancing. "Clapping"now I'm not sure whether to be sceptical..concerned..or Totally Bewildered. I'm sure some one will be Along to explain cos that cant be right...can it??

[MRG]

My company is selling PPE into the NHS, there is no shortage. I can get unlimited stock Ona 3 week lead time at worst.

What there is an issue with is getting PPE to a trust tomorrow. There seems to be an inability for trusts to plan their requirements, everybody needs it tomorrow.

In relation to UK suppliers there are 2 issues. Firstly most factories have skeleton staff at best meaning they can’t compete with China on lead times and secondly they can’t compete with China dues to cost of labour and raw material even thought freight prices from China and other countries have increased a minimum of x5 but air and sea.

Final point, we are a top 20 supplier to the NHS and we have had no dealings with the government, basically they aren’t involved nor should they be as they have limited knowledge in this area.

The only way things will improve is if trusts and NHS Supply Chain start forecasting their demand better

[Devils_Advocate]

Story surfacing from the HSJ and Peston today about the new Nightingale hospitals which don't look great. Plan to look into it in more detail but at first glance it feels like it was either a really poorly thought out plan or a bit of a PR stunt

[Burnley1989]

Altham company ‘What More’ are producing 60,000 face masks per week.

[tim_noone]

So the link relates to the Clapping.....as Happened last night on the news channels...now I may be mistaken but this link and last nights news bulletin shows NHS Workers all grouped together. NO ppe in sight...NO social Distancing. "Clapping"now I'm not sure whether to be sceptical..concerned..or Totally Bewildered. I'm sure some one will be Along to explain cos that cant be right...can it??

[Devils_Advocate]

Another story that I'll look into in more detail today provided by a scientist talking about the lack of impetus and effort at one of the testing labs

[CombatClaret]

Story surfacing from the HSJ and Peston today about the new Nightingale hospitals which don't look great. Plan to look into it in more detail but at first glance it feels like it was either a really poorly thought out plan or a bit of a PR stunt

Further too this about the ventilators Govt asked companies to make that won't arrive for months anyway.

Ventilator standards set out for UK makers ‘of no use’ to Covid patients

The minimum specification for the UK’s homegrown hospital ventilator programme will not produce machines suitable for treating coronavirus patients, the head of the largest organisation for critical care medical professionals has said.

the government’s request for ventilators that would — at a minimum — stabilise patients “for a few hours” was not in line with what was requested by medical experts last month.

Dr Pittard, who was among a group of medical experts who advised on minimum specifications for ventilators in early March, said the professionals had asked for devices that would work for the duration of a Covid-19 patient’s stay in intensive care.

“If we had been told that that was the case, that the ventilators were only to treat a patient for a few hours. we’d have said: ‘Don’t bother, you’re wasting your time. That’s of no use whatsoever’,” she said.

https://www.ft.com/content/365529f8-bff ... eedff0cfbb
Full Text Here - https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/ ... ers_of_no/

[CombatClaret]

Remember the ventilators being designed by Dyson, JCB & Formula 1.

Well we've quietly canceled the order for thousands of ventilators from the F1 folk because although they met the minimum specs the Govt asked for "clinicians feared the device was not sufficiently complex to be suitable for treating Covid-19."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... oronavirus

[Devils_Advocate]

Further too this about the ventilators Govt asked companies to make that won't arrive for months anyway.

Ventilator standards set out for UK makers ‘of no use’ to Covid patients

The minimum specification for the UK’s homegrown hospital ventilator programme will not produce machines suitable for treating coronavirus patients, the head of the largest organisation for critical care medical professionals has said.

the government’s request for ventilators that would — at a minimum — stabilise patients “for a few hours” was not in line with what was requested by medical experts last month.

Dr Pittard, who was among a group of medical experts who advised on minimum specifications for ventilators in early March, said the professionals had asked for devices that would work for the duration of a Covid-19 patient’s stay in intensive care.

“If we had been told that that was the case, that the ventilators were only to treat a patient for a few hours. we’d have said: ‘Don’t bother, you’re wasting your time. That’s of no use whatsoever’,” she said.

https://www.ft.com/content/365529f8-bff ... eedff0cfbb
Full Text Here - https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/ ... ers_of_no/

FYI this was discussed at length on its own thread. Worth a read as some brilliant insight from DavidEyersLeftFoot on there

https://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboa ... &start=100

[RingoMcCartney]

Story surfacing from the HSJ and Peston today about the new Nightingale hospitals which don't look great. Plan to look into it in more detail but at first glance it feels like it was either a really poorly thought out plan or a bit of a PR stunt

The Nightingale hospitals are a example of various stakeholders coming together in a unbelievable way in what must have been a logistical nightmare to achieve what many would have thought nigh on impossible, on a matter of days.

Local councils, the government, NHS staff, soldiers and countless volunteers have moved mountains to create extra capacity out of thin air. Theyve done this while under the social distancing rules so theyve potentially risked their lives in order to help save others.

Yet you, in your ceaseless need to want to criticise the government, while they're in the middle of an unprecedented global pandemic. Want to try and describe the, never done before, creating of several hospitals as "a really poorly thought out plan or a bit of a PR stunt"

Have you ever heard of the phrase, " prepare for the worst, hope for the best"?

Well that's exactly what the government's done. If the Nightingale hospitals are under used then surely that's a good thing!

Or are you going to blame the government for not enough people being ill !?

I wouldn't put it past you.

Nightingale hospitals a "PR stunt"!?

Pathetic.

[CombatClaret]

Local councils, the government, NHS staff, soldiers and countless volunteers have moved mountains to create extra capacity out of thin air.

If the hospital sending a patient to Nightingale has to also send it's own staff and an equipment with them, it's not really creating capacity rather just moving it around surely.
Bed's in buildings isn't the problem it's ICU staff and specialist equipment.

[Devils_Advocate]

Waffle, waffle, waffle

Waffle, waffle, waffle

Waffle, waffle, waffle

Waffle, waffle waffle

If the Nightingale hospitals are under used then surely that's a good thing!

Or are you going to blame the government for not enough people being ill !?

I wouldn't put it past you.

Nightingale hospitals a "PR stunt"!?

Pathetic.

The question being asked which is the important point is why the hospitals are being underused. If its cos they are not needed and other hospitals are coping comfortably then its great news

If its for some of the reasons outlined in the report (I need to do a bit more reading) then it doesn't look good

Now take a deep breath, count to 10 and relax Ringo

[tim_noone]

The Nightingale hospitals are a example of various stakeholders coming together in a unbelievable way in what must have been a logistical nightmare to achieve what many would have thought nigh on impossible, on a matter of days.

Local councils, the government, NHS staff, soldiers and countless volunteers have moved mountains to create extra capacity out of thin air. Theyve done this while under the social distancing rules so theyve potentially risked their lives in order to help save others.

Yet you, in your ceaseless need to want to criticise the government, while they're in the middle of an unprecedented global pandemic. Want to try and describe the, never done before, creating of several hospitals as "a really poorly thought out plan or a bit of a PR stunt"

Have you ever heard of the phrase, " prepare for the worst, hope for the best"?

Well that's exactly what the government's done. If the Nightingale hospitals are under used then surely that's a good thing!

Or are you going to blame the government for not enough people being ill !?

I wouldn't put it past you.

Nightingale hospitals a "PR stunt"!?

Pathetic.

Ringo..as you are quoting social distancing can you give me a view as to my quoting the OP and again quoting my own post on the subject? Cheers. Confused tbh.

[RingoMcCartney]

If the hospital sending a patient to Nightingale has to also send it's own staff and an equipment with them, it's not really creating capacity rather just moving it around surely.
Bed's in buildings isn't the problem it's ICU staff and specialist equipment.

In a previous post your claimed "I'm not going to diminish the achievement of what's been done"

This sounds an awful lot like you're trying your very best to play down the achievements of the government, the NHS staff , the army and countless others who've pulled of a minor miracle.

-It wasn't out of thin air, the building and all utilities were already in place and it's specifically designed for large get ins/get outs.

Wrong. 10 days ago, had you fallen ill with Coronavirus, you would not have been able to be treated at the Nightingale Hospital. Today you would.

"-It's not a working hospital it's a large ward with one purpose in mind that will be deconstructed afterward."

Wrong. Every TV channel, every radio station, every paper, every TV presenter, every political commentator, every politician, every political commentator, even Robert Peston, Prince Charles, has described it as a hospital. The clue is in the name that has been universally accepted. - Nightingale HOSPITAL. Apart from one guy on a football message board !

-Workers did not do it under social distancing rules."

Wrong. Social distancing rules were already in place during the building of this hospital. The people responsible for achieving this monumental challenge just chose to put protocol to one side and put their lives at risk , in order to save others.

[Grumps]

Remember the ventilators being designed by Dyson, JCB & Formula 1.

Well we've quietly canceled the order for thousands of ventilators from the F1 folk because although they met the minimum specs the Govt asked for "clinicians feared the device was not sufficiently complex to be suitable for treating Covid-19."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... oronavirus

There was also news yesterday that the ventilators that are most needed are being built and will be available from next week, hundreds being built every day. I Carnt remember the companies, but certainly included one F1 team.

[Grumps]

The question being asked which is the important point is why the hospitals are being underused. If its cos they are not needed and other hospitals are coping comfortably then its great news

If its for some of the reasons outlined in the report (I need to do a bit more reading) then it doesn't look good

Now take a deep breath, count to 10 and relax Ringo

The one being built in the North East may never get used, but only because they don't think they will need the capacity, a good news story of sorts.

[CombatClaret]

Wrong. Every TV channel, every radio station, every paper, every TV presenter, every political commentator, every politician, every political commentator, even Robert Peston, Prince Charles, has described it as a hospital. The clue is in the name that has been universally accepted. - Nightingale HOSPITAL. Apart from one guy on a football message board !

I'm flattered I get you all hot under the collar.

A lot more of the press are now referring to the Nightingales as 'Field Hospitals' which is a far more accurate term.

In a previous post your claimed "I'm not going to diminish the achievement of what's been done"
This sounds an awful lot like you're trying your very best to play down the achievements of the government, the NHS staff , the army and countless others who've pulled of a minor miracle.

Playing the man, not the argument. If all else fails attack his scene of patriotism.

[Grumps]

The question being asked which is the important point is why the hospitals are being underused. If its cos they are not needed and other hospitals are coping comfortably then its great news

If its for some of the reasons outlined in the report (I need to do a bit more reading) then it doesn't look good

Now take a deep breath, count to 10 and relax Ringo

Or.... Don't post stories till you know the facts..... Do your reading first perhaps?

[RingoMcCartney]

The question being asked which is the important point is why the hospitals are being underused. If its cos they are not needed and other hospitals are coping comfortably then its great news

If its for some of the reasons outlined in the report ( I need to do a bit more reading) then it doesn't look good

Now take a deep breath, count to 10 and relax Ringo

You call it waffle.

I'd say its calling you out as being a , never going to be good enough, trying to pick holes in fabulous achievements, whining , sniping someone who by their own admittance, "needs to do more reading" person. Till then, take your own advice and resist the knee jerk reaction to call what was virtually unachievable, but achieved, a "PR stunt"

Again , pathetic.

[CombatClaret]

Wrong. Social distancing rules were already in place during the building of this hospital. The people responsible for achieving this monumental challenge just chose to put protocol to one side and put their lives at risk , in order to save others.

The logistics of creating a working hospital out of thin air, in normal times, would have been challenging. But to do it under social distancing rules and everything else associated with this current unprecedented situation is nothing short of a miracle.

In your original post you claimed the Field Hospital was constructed whilst under social distancing. It was pointed out you were wrong, so instead you changed to saying how marvelous it was that they chose to ignore social distancing. Thus glossing over the face you just made something up.

[Devils_Advocate]

The one being built in the North East may never get used, but only because they don't think they will need the capacity, a good news story of sorts.

Yes Ive no problem with that and agree with Ringo's sentiments about better to have them and not need them than not need them at all.

If on the other hand they aren't being used for other reasons like being highlighted by the HSJ and Robert Peston and are not providing the relief to normal hospitals they were designed for then this should be questioned and reviewed

Is that not a pretty fair stance to take?

[LeadBelly]

OP starts what is basically yet another thread that people can endlessly spout their political allegiances on. There will be nothing new raised here nor any debating breakthroughs.

[Grumps]

Yes Ive no problem with that and agree with Ringo's sentiments about better to have them and not need them than not need them at all.

If on the other hand they aren't being used for other reasons like being highlighted by the HSJ and Robert Peston and are not providing the relief to normal hospitals they were designed for then this should be questioned and reviewed

Is that not a pretty fair stance to take?

The one that opens today in Manchester is classed as a recovery facility, so is never going to have the critically ill patients.
As for relying on Peston...... Really?

[Grumps]

OP starts what is basically yet another thread that people can endlessly spout their political allegiances on. There will be nothing new raised here nor any debating breakthroughs.

Don't read, or partake in it then

[Devils_Advocate]

You call it waffle.

I'd say its calling you out as being a , never going to be good enough, trying to pick holes in fabulous achievements, whining , sniping someone who by their own admittance, "needs to do more reading" person. Till then, take your own advice and resist the knee jerk reaction to call what was virtually unachievable, but achieved, a "PR stunt"

Again , pathetic.

I haven't picked any holes, Ive just brought some attention to a breaking news story from a leading health journal and a leading political journalist.

I think it is worthy of discussion as opposed to diatribe and name calling your posts contain.

I'll leave it there cos as I said I hope to see some decent discussion if anyone is interested and not Im gonna spend the day bickering with you

[RingoMcCartney]

I'm flattered I get you all hot under the collar.

A lot more of the press are now referring to the Nightingales as 'Field Hospitals ' which is a far more accurate term.



Playing the man, not the argument. If all else fails attack his scene of patriotism.

Previously-

"-It's not a working hospital it's a large ward with one purpose in mind that will be deconstructed afterward."

Now , by your own admittance, you're calling it a "hospital"......

A lot more of the press are now referring to the Nightingales as 'Field Hospitals ' which is a far more accurate term.

Still no admitting you got it wrong on the social distancing rules.

As for patriotism, Captain Tom has more patriotism in his little finger than you and you merry band of Never Gonna Be Good Enough mongers, will ever have combined.

[Firthy]

The OP asked for non political angles. He should have also asked for non personal angles. Yet another thread that is degenerating into people having a go at each other.

[Devils_Advocate]

The one that opens today in Manchester is classed as a recovery facility, so is never going to have the critically ill patients.
As for relying on Peston...... Really?

The story is about the London hospital. Im not relying on Peston but once he has broke it you see discussion from all sorts of experts and journalists so I will be following those discussion to form a view. Peston picked up the story from the HSJ so have you got a problem with them

You sound genuinely interested so rather than just taking a position why dont you have a look into it. You might not change your position but you might be able to provide me and others the reasons why the report is rubbish

As with Ringo im not gonna just bicker on a messageboard especially with someone who hasnt even bothered to look into the subject being discussed

[evensteadiereddie]

Go on, it's Friday after all...

[RingoMcCartney]

I haven't picked any holes, Ive just brought some attention to a breaking news story from a leading health journal and a leading political journalist.

I think it is worthy of discussion as opposed to diatribe and name calling your posts contain.

I'll leave it there cos as I said I hope to see some decent discussion if anyone is interested and not Im gonna spend the day bickering with you

Fabulous news!

Maybe you could catch up on that much needed reading you admit you need to do!

Everybody's happy!

[evensteadiereddie]

So far, so good.

[RingoMcCartney]

In your original post you claimed the Field Hospital was constructed whilst under social distancing. It was pointed out you were wrong, so instead you changed to saying how marvelous it was that they chose to ignore social distancing. Thus glossing over the face you just made something up.

This is some fabulous rewriting of history!

The building of the Nightingale hospitals was indeed, done while social distancing rules were in place. And still are.

You said youd watched a timeline video of its construction and it was clear to you that social distancing had not been respected by those building the hospital.

Consequently, I said that of that was the case then it's even more of a fabulous achievement, that in building the hospital, people has potentially put their lives at risk, in order to help save others .

I said it was a " fabulou" rewriting of history. I reckon a more accurate one would be desperate, clutching at straws!

[tim_noone]

Ringo..as you are quoting social distancing can you give me a view as to my quoting the OP and again quoting my own post on the subject? Cheers. Confused tbh.

[RingoMcCartney]

Not sure what you're on about to be honest pal. Try and make it idiot proof and quick for me. I've work to do. Some of us are still working , someone has to keep the country on its knees you know!

[Damo]

Peston
Cant believe people are quoting him, given his form during this pandemic. In fact given his form since the the last recession.

[evensteadiereddie]

He has Hancock flopping around like a beached cod. Painful to see a minister so horribly humiliated.