PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

[turbo5]

Supply chain management within the NHS will be no different from any other large public or private sector organisation.
A central purchasing hub will decide which suppliers can supply to the NHS based on Quality Cost Delivery (group purchasing power should ensure your suppliers see you as a major customer and you secure the best price based on volumes, they may dual or triple source some high volume usage PPE)
NHS trusts GPs CCGs etc through their own purchasing teams will then set up schedules with these suppliers based on their individual needs eg normal usage whilst carrying sufficient buffer stock to cover above planned usage, late deliveries, quality issues etc
PPE are relatively short lead-time low-cost goods and stock levels and reordering points will be regular. not too dissimilar from your weekly shopping
The toilet paper issue we faced is a similar analogy. The majority of us buy it in our weekly shop, it's big, bulky and relatively cheap and we cant store months of it at home. normally there is never a supply issue so why would you buy 2-3 months' worth. All of a sudden demand outstripped supply and panic buying followed.
So to compound this there is suddenly a world demand and everybody wants more either for usage or storing to ensure there is enough buffer. Demand is now outstripping manufacturing capabilities, Suddenly your supplier now requotes you can have your regular monthly order of 10K face masks but the other 50k you want have a 2 months lead time. All their customers are asking for a massive increase in demand and your own government is telling you to priorities your own countries stock.
As for people blaming the government and blaming management just think about the toilet roll debacle what would you do differently without hindsight ? tomorrow might be washing powder have you 3 months worth in stock ? Every hospital would have a warehouse bigger than the hospital at the side of it if you planned for every eventually. Normally if you have a problem with one supplier there is always another one to fall back on but with A world crisis this wont happen.
Not all trusts are short of PPE the media are jumping on the ones that are. Due to shortages of certain PPE the higher longer lead time masks are being used ineffectively creating other shortages , the media and political parties love t they can apportion blame because that's what people expect in any crisis , someone to blame !!

[tim_noone]

Not sure what you're on about to be honest pal. Try and make it idiot proof and quick for me. I've work to do. Some of us are still working , someone has to keep the country on its knees you know!

Ok with all the rules on social distancing being preached wide scale. What's your view on all the doctors and nurses being shown on the "clapping" news show. All huddled together in a large group no ppe in sight clapping.

[Siddo]

There is no ppe. A Trust CEO rings the BBC and asks for Burberry's number and says he will take responsibility for the ppe from there not being signed off by the government. They are going to run out of gowns today.

Come back to this post in 2 weeks and then praise the government.
There is a big wave coming our way no matter how much we bicker about it, the deaths over the next 2 weeks will be frightening, and we can clap as much as we like, we are not protecting front line NHS staff.

[houseboy]

Do you know that we in the NW are 2 weeks behind London. The worst is yet to come here, and we have no ppe now.

I'm sorry for just highlighting this part of your post, I don't like taking things out of context and I'm not having a dig, but I hear this statement a lot. My question about this is simply why do we suppose we are going to be anywhere near as bad as London? A virus will spread most quickly in areas of densest population - London is the most densly popluated area in the country. It will be spread more easilly in the most cosmopolitan areas where there are most foreign visitors (or just tourists in general) - again this is London. It would have been spread most rapidly before we even knew it was as bad as it is and again the above criteria still applies. We have been on lockdown as long as London and we are nowhere near at their levels yet. We in East Lancs are an area of relatively small towns, which are nothng like as densly populated as London. Why are we assumng that we are going to be anything like London in terms of numbers? It dosn't really make sense. I'm not sayng it won't get worse, it may well, but where do we get this 'we are 2 weeks behind London' idea when we have been on lockdown for the same time and we are nowhere near their levels? To take an bit of an extreme analogy (due to size and distances) but look at America...New York (even denser than London) has been decimated but there are areas of the country that have been largely untouched due to geographics. Logically there doesn't seem to be any reason to assume that we are going to be anwhere near as bad as London so the idea that we are 2 weeks behind is a bit baffling.

[TheFamilyCat]

Previously-







Now , by your own admittance, you're calling it a "hospital"......



Still no admitting you got it wrong on the social distancing rules.

As for patriotism, Captain Tom has more patriotism in his little finger than you and you merry band of Never Gonna Be Good Enough mongers, will ever have combined.

End of game Combat. Ringo has played his Captain Tom Supertrump.

[tim_noone]

I'm sorry for just highlighting this part of your post, I don't like taking things out of context and I'm not having a dig, but I hear this statement a lot. My question about this is simply why do we suppose we are going to be anywhere near as bad as London? A virus will spread most quickly in areas of densest population - London is the most densly popluated area in the country. It will be spread more easilly in the most cosmopolitan areas where there are most foreign visitors (or just tourists in general) - again this is London. It would have been spread most rapidly before we even knew it was as bad as it is and again the above criteria still applies. We have been on lockdown as long as London and we are nowhere near at their levels yet. We in East Lancs are an area of relatively small towns, which are nothng like as densly populated as London. Why are we assumng that we are going to be anything like London in terms of numbers? It dosn't really make sense. I'm not sayng it won't get worse, it may well, but where do we get this 'we are 2 weeks behind London' idea when we have been on lockdown for the same time and we are nowhere near their levels? To take an bit of an extreme analogy (due to size and distances) but look at America...New York (even denser than London) has been decimated but there are areas of the country that have been largely untouched due to geographics. Logically there doesn't seem to be any reason to assume that we are going to be anwhere near as bad as London so the idea that we are 2 weeks behind is a bit baffling.

So the UK were two weeks behind Italy ..was that also Baffling? It Happened. Basically the poster is regionalising the numbers and forecasting the northwest to have more casualties than London. He may be correct. I'm not sure myself what to think either way.

[TheFamilyCat]

I'm sorry for just highlighting this part of your post, I don't like taking things out of context and I'm not having a dig, but I hear this statement a lot. My question about this is simply why do we suppose we are going to be anywhere near as bad as London? A virus will spread most quickly in areas of densest population - London is the most densly popluated area in the country. It will be spread more easilly in the most cosmopolitan areas where there are most foreign visitors (or just tourists in general) - again this is London. It would have been spread most rapidly before we even knew it was as bad as it is and again the above criteria still applies. We have been on lockdown as long as London and we are nowhere near at their levels yet. We in East Lancs are an area of relatively small towns, which are nothng like as densly populated as London. Why are we assumng that we are going to be anything like London in terms of numbers? It dosn't really make sense. I'm not sayng it won't get worse, it may well, but where do we get this 'we are 2 weeks behind London' idea when we have been on lockdown for the same time and we are nowhere near their levels? To take an bit of an extreme analogy (due to size and distances) but look at America...New York (even denser than London) has been decimated but there are areas of the country that have been largely untouched due to geographics. Logically there doesn't seem to be any reason to assume that we are going to be anwhere near as bad as London so the idea that we are 2 weeks behind is a bit baffling.

I don't think there's a suggestion that there will be as many cases and deaths as London, just that the trajectory will be similar and follow the same trend. That said, as you point out, logically the trajectory should change due to the measures brought in during the two weeks we are supposedly behind.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ok with all the rules on social distancing being preached wide scale. What's your view on all the doctors and nurses being shown on the "clapping" news show. All huddled together in a large group no ppe in sight clapping.

I guess the nature of their work, if they're front line staff , probably means its nigh on impossible to observe the social distancing rules as they might like . Consequently, if they're spending their working day close to one another , lifting, turning patients over etc. Then to start social distancing later would perhaps be pointless. To be really honest with you, if they cant observe the rules for practical reasons and are committed enough to do the job anyway. Therefore, putting their own lives at risk , as they try and save others. Then they deserve the nations appreciation even more so.

I only came on this thread because someone called the Nightingale hospitals a " PR stunt"

Hope that answers your question Tim. I'm bowing out for now. The work doesn't look like it's going to do itself anytime soon.

Keep well and I hope you and yours stay safe.

[RingoMcCartney]

End of game Combat. Ringo has played his Captain Tom Supertrump.

He played the patriotism card first. I raised him with the truth about Captain Tom.


Toodle pip.

[tim_noone]

I guess the nature of their work, if they're front line staff , probably means its nigh on impossible to observe the social distancing rules as they might like . Consequently, if they're spending their working day close to one another , lifting, turning patients over etc. Then to start social distancing later would perhaps be pointless. To be really honest with you, if they cant observe the rules for practical reasons and are committed enough to do the job anyway. Therefore, putting their own lives at risk , as they try and save others. Then they deserve the nations appreciation even more so.

I only came on this thread because someone called the Nightingale hospitals a " PR stunt"

Hope that answers your question Tim. I'm bowing out for now. The work doesn't look like it's going to do itself anytime soon.

Keep well and I hope you and yours stay safe.

[DavidEyresLeftFoot]

The question being asked which is the important point is why the hospitals are being underused. If its cos they are not needed and other hospitals are coping comfortably then its great news

I wouldn’t say hospitals are coping comfortably. It’s been relentless for the last few weeks. Unfortunately, as I suspected at the beginning, the criteria for admission to the excel have been so narrow that none of our cases have been suitable for transfer there.

[IanMcL]

Not wanting to make this thread about brexit, but It makes you wonder, how 40 years of letting the EU move British manufacturing abroad, has affected our response to things like ppe

UK Govetnment have always had the means to control who owns what, on a competirion basis. Nothing to do with the EU, rotherham an EU base is an essential starting point for companies.

The problem is that UK companies and the 'City' always want their profit today not down the track. Short termism has led to non investment in future proofing companies. Better to make a profitable company today and sell it off. That just leads to close down by the buying company, who was a competitor.

Like top 6 buying the stars of the other teams, who then disappear into the 'squad'. Gives them one up in the next match etc and limits competition.

Manufacturing is not like service industries. However, in war, you need manufacturing more than share trades!

[Grumps]

There is no ppe. A Trust CEO rings the BBC and asks for Burberry's number and says he will take responsibility for the ppe from there not being signed off by the government. They are going to run out of gowns today.

Come back to this post in 2 weeks and then praise the government.
There is a big wave coming our way no matter how much we bicker about it, the deaths over the next 2 weeks will be frightening, and we can clap as much as we like, we are not protecting front line NHS staff.

Paul, Paul.. Is that you??

[Grumps]

So the UK were two weeks behind Italy ..was that also Baffling? It Happened. Basically the poster is regionalising the numbers and forecasting the northwest to have more casualties than London. He may be correct. I'm not sure myself what to think either way.

But Italy was very much centred on one area... Perhaps London is our Italy, look to the south of Italy, very low numbers, perhaps the North West will follow that area?

[CombatClaret]

He played the patriotism card first. I raised him with the truth about Captain Tom.
Toodle pip.

This sounds an awful lot like you're trying your very best to play down the achievements of the government, the NHS staff , the army and countless others who've pulled of a minor miracle.

I was the first to use the word, after you seemed to imply I lacked it...

[TVC15]

There really wasn’t much chance of the thread title being adhered to was there ?!!!

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Stay safe etc (as long as you put that last bit in everything that went before it is fine)

Tedious is not the word.

[houseboy]

So the UK were two weeks behind Italy ..was that also Baffling? It Happened. Basically the poster is regionalising the numbers and forecasting the northwest to have more casualties than London. He may be correct. I'm not sure myself what to think either way.

Hi Tim, hope you're well bud. We were presumably behind Italy because generally speaking the virus, originating in China, headed West, so it stands to reason they would have it before us. As far as forcasting more casualties than London for the Northwest, how can that even possibly be? The denser and higher the population the more chance of spread and prior to the lockdown more people heading into London than heading here, thus causing more spread. I know we are talking hypotheticals here but logically the area with the highest and densest population would be worst hit would it not. I fail to see, and I could of course be wrong, how we can be even remotely as badly hit as London.

[Grumps]

There really wasn’t much chance of the thread title being adhered to was there ?!!!

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I’m leaving now (but I’m not really)
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Stay safe etc (as long as you put that last bit in everything that went before it is fine)

Tedious is not the word.

Bit difficult when the opening post is clearly political

[CombatClaret]

Bit difficult when the opening post is clearly political

Is highlighting a fact like PPE shortage too political now?

[Burnley Ace]

Peston
Cant believe people are quoting him, given his form during this pandemic. In fact given his form since the the last recession.

Just thinking the same thing - ever since he left the BBC he’s been disappointing- I find his interviews very flat and his delivery seems very hesitant and “hammy”.

[TVC15]

Bit difficult when the opening post is clearly political

Was it ?
I thought it was just linking a factual BBC report.
I think your counter to the report was absolutely fine btw.

In reality I think there are genuine PPE issues in many areas and with some of the NHS Trusts whereas in other areas the situation has improved in the last couple of weeks. I would imagine that some of the trusts are better organised than others but I also think that in the current situation of a national crisis there should be a service provided by the central government to resolve these. It’s not right that staff and the the public should be more at risk simply because of their post code.

But as you well know threads on this board do not stay as a reasonable debate or to the OP subject matter for long.

[Grumps]

Is highlighting a fact like PPE shortage too political now?

Of course its political, but is the OP requesting none political posts? Or is it just badly worded?

[Grumps]

Was it ?
I thought it was just linking a factual BBC report.
I think your counter to the report was absolutely fine btw.

In reality I think there are genuine PPE issues in many areas and with some of the NHS Trusts whereas in other areas the situation has improved in the last couple of weeks. I would imagine that some of the trusts are better organised than others but I also think that in the current situation of a national crisis there should be a service provided by the central government to resolve these. It’s not right that staff and the the public should be more at risk simply because of their post code.

But as you well know threads on this board do not stay as a reasonable debate or to the OP subject matter for long.

As stated above I read the thread title as requesting no political posts, but when the article is critical of the government that would be difficult to achieve, or I've read it wrong.

[TVC15]

As stated above I read the thread title as requesting no political posts, but when the article is critical of the government that would be difficult to achieve, or I've read it wrong.

I didn't read it as that.
Of course its political report as in its a story about an NHS Trust talking about the government and its PPE situation. But its not political as in left and right, Labour, Tory etc. The BBC would have reported on this irrespective of who was in government.

I think the OP was saying lets stick to the subject of the report and don't turn this into a wider debate or political as in left and right. That's how i read it anyway.

I completely disagree with any viewpoint that says we need to wait till the end of this before criticising the government. For me this is a ridiculous argument and not least of which because many of the government ministers have said themselves that they encourage scrutiny, challenge and criticism if it makes the situation better and ultimately saves lives.
The daily updates and more transparency to the public were introduced on the back of criticism...and I am sure there have been many more things introduced because of challenges made by the opposition or by other bodies.

[Damo]

The problem with politicising things like this, is peoples response to it changes completely when it turns out the shortages are down to procurement managers on 60k per year and its not the fault of the tories.
It's perfectly rational to be worried about frontline nhs staff, but it's not ok if your outrage is faux, and just an excuse to have a pop at a political party you dislike

[TVC15]

The problem with politicising things like this, is peoples response to it changes completely when it turns out the shortages are down to procurement managers on 60k per year and its not the fault of the tories.
It's perfectly rational to be worried about frontline nhs staff, but it's not ok if your outrage is faux, and just an excuse to have a pop at a political party you dislike

If you can distinguish the ones that are political and just to have a pop at the government.
Personally I’m outraged because I have a wife and a daughter on the frontline the first who has only just received adequate PPE and the second who is still waiting and today has to go out to work again without it.

I also don’t think it’s anywhere near as simple as blaming a procurement manager or else you would not have so many people in these position who have been saying it’s been so difficult to get PPE for the last 6 weeks or so. They can’t all be incompetent.

[dsr]

There is no ppe. A Trust CEO rings the BBC and asks for Burberry's number and says he will take responsibility for the ppe from there not being signed off by the government. They are going to run out of gowns today.

Come back to this post in 2 weeks and then praise the government.
There is a big wave coming our way no matter how much we bicker about it, the deaths over the next 2 weeks will be frightening, and we can clap as much as we like, we are not protecting front line NHS staff.

On a technicality, regardless of what the report says, the Trust CEO rang the BBC to make a political point about having no PPE. If he had rung the BBC to get a phone munber of a public company, then he would have to be the stupidest CEO in existence - most CEOs would have the sense to ring directory enquiries.

[Damo]

If you can distinguish the ones that are political and just to have a pop at the government.
Personally I’m outraged because I have a wife and a daughter on the frontline the first who has only just received adequate PPE and the second who is still waiting and today has to go out to work again without it.

I also don’t think it’s anywhere near as simple as blaming a procurement manager or else you would not have so many people in these position who have been saying it’s been so difficult to get PPE for the last 6 weeks or so. They can’t all be incompetent.

That wasnt a dig at you, or anyone else individually
Your outrage is completely justified. It must be extremely frightening to be in your situation. Hats off to your wife, your daughter, and to you for carrying on in a situation like this.

[Siddo]

Thanks Tim Noone and Houseboy for your considered replies.

I really hope the information I am receiving is wrong. But every single thing I've been told by this source has happened.

There are other considerations other than transport to be taken into account.

As I said, I am praying I am wrong and I hope the other posters are correct.

On another note, I have wracked my brains P and I just can't guess why its Tim Noone.

[tim_noone]

Thanks Tim Noone and Houseboy for your considered replies.

I really hope the information I am receiving is wrong. But every single thing I've been told by this source has happened.

There are other considerations other than transport to be taken into account.

As I said, I am praying I am wrong and I hope the other posters are correct.

On another note, I have wracked my brains P and I just can't guess why its Tim Noone.

[tiger76]

My take on all this is the PPE response is spasmodic,some health trusts are coping much better than others,why is a question that will be answered no doubt in the fullness of time,but without completely heaping all the blame on the government,i have to say their lethargic efforts in the weeks beforehand have contributed to us now playing catch-up.

Indeed the reactive response is replicated throughout most of Western Europe,Germany accepted,and explains the valid criticisms now being directed at the various governments in question.

My eternal hope is that valuable lessons have been learned,and if as predicted we experience a 2nd wave,that we are much better prepared to combat it,if we aren't then i'm afraid there's no excuse,the care sector in particular has been left high and dry,and this needs to be rectified quickly.The warnings were there from Italy and Spain for all to see,and yet we just sat on our laurels.

Testing and tracing also needs to be ramped up massively,otherwise we'll face the prospect of further lockdowns,and the economy will be hit even more than it currently is,if we don't find an effective exit strategy,whatever it maybe,we'll be waiting for a vaccine,and at best that's a year down the line,it's not viable from either an economic or social POV to justify lockdown for such a lengthy period,and TBH i can't see the public adhering to such restrictions for more than another month at the most.

[dsr]

The Daily Telegraph consistently angles for a "Beaverbrook" figure to do what Beaverbrook did in WW2 - ie. take charge of production and supply of vital products (in this case, protective clothing and other supplies) and see that it is made and distributed. It seems that the civil service is unable to do this (unless the civil service has the capacity but the ministers have told them not to bother - which is unlikely!) so it needs someone competent to be promoted over their head.

[Taffy on the wing]

Who does?

I'm sure they are doing their best in unprecedented circumstances but making mistakes/misjudgements along the way.

Grumps does, you are doing.
There's this from todays NY Times..https://nyti.ms/2KdOMWo
Then there's the daily waffling from Matt Hancock, who couldn't look more out of his depth.
The bottom line is..they had ample time to prepare and they wasted it!

[RingoMcCartney]

I was the first to use the word, after you seemed to imply I lacked it...

Not just wrong. Paranoid too!

You can add multi tasking to your many talents!

Stay safe, because they are all out to go getcha!

[Taffy on the wing]

Or.... Don't post stories till you know the facts..... Do your reading first perhaps?

The question is...........What are YOU reading?...My guess is the Mail or Express.

[jrgbfc]

Grumps does, you are doing.
There's this from todays NY Times..https://nyti.ms/2KdOMWo
Then there's the daily waffling from Matt Hancock, who couldn't look more out of his depth.
The bottom line is..they had ample time to prepare and they wasted it!

He's great at coming up with big action plans, it's just putting them into practise that seems to be the problem. Still, a nice shiny little badge for our care workers should sort everything out.

[CombatClaret]

So we run out of gowns in a few hours...
After a 2016 dry run said PPE was an issue, after we let our stockpiles run down and after we watched China then Italy go to sh1t.

[Grumps]

The question is...........What are YOU reading?...My guess is the Mail or Express.

It was only said because the poster I was replying to said he was going to read up on a certain item

Why is it of any interest to you what I read? But your guess is wrong, try again.

[Grumps]

Grumps does, you are doing.
There's this from todays NY Times..https://nyti.ms/2KdOMWo
Then there's the daily waffling from Matt Hancock, who couldn't look more out of his depth.
The bottom line is..they had ample time to prepare and they wasted it!

Grumps does if he feels its merited, one way or the other
Some just want to criticise without giving any thought
I love how certain people think this government should have got every single decision right, on something nobody knew existed at Christmas
Yes there have been mistakes, and there will continue to be mistakes, but there's also an awful lot of good work done. Would it harm you so much to admit it every now and again.

[TVC15]

I love how certain people think this government should have got every single decision right, on something nobody knew existed at Christmas

Who is it you know who thinks that ?
Is it “certain people” on this board or just people you know who think that ?
I don’t know of anyone on this board who has said this.

[Siddo]

Grumps does if he feels its merited, one way or the other
Some just want to criticise without giving any thought
I love how certain people think this government should have got every single decision right, on something nobody knew existed at Christmas
Yes there have been mistakes, and there will continue to be mistakes, but there's also an awful lot of good work done. Would it harm you so much to admit it every now and again.

Please can you tell me what you think the government has got right and what good work you think they have done?

[Grumps]

Please can you tell me what you think the government has got right and what good work you think they have done?

Just off the top of my head... The financial help put in place, the provision of new hospitals
I guess you'll come back with... It all should have been done earlier... Do you think the public would have accepted a full lockdown when deaths were in double figures? In the hundreds?
Like I've already said mistakes have been made
Do you think the government have got anything right?

[Siddo]

Just off the top of my head... The financial help put in place, the provision of new hospitals
I guess you'll come back with... It all should have been done earlier... Do you think the public would have accepted a full lockdown when deaths were in double figures? In the hundreds?
Like I've already said mistakes have been made
Do you think the government have got anything right?

They haven't got one single thing right. Everything has been reactive. Not one single proactive initiative.

[RingoMcCartney]

They haven't got one single thing right. Everything has been reactive. Not one single proactive initiative.

As I said, come back to my post in 2 weeks. I hope the new morgues sourced at Blackburn ice rink and in Preston won't be needed.

There's a clue in the words "unprecedented global pandemic"


What you're suggesting is like trying to have all the ingredients before knowing what the recipe is.

[Taffy on the wing]

It was only said because the poster I was replying to said he was going to read up on a certain item

Why is it of any interest to you what I read? But your guess is wrong, try again.

The Sun?

[Taffy on the wing]

They haven't got one single thing right. Everything has been reactive. Not one single proactive initiative.

As I said, come back to my post in 2 weeks. I hope the new morgues sourced at Blackburn ice rink and in Preston won't be needed.

Exactly!..... Countries and Cities/States who took it seriously and put safeguards in place, like testing and tracing, have done amazingly well compared to those who waited.

[Pstotto]

One of the things about growing older is that when the Prime Minister is 10 years younger than you are, you worry for them, for being just humans as far as I know.

One has to take that into account in these matters.

One can''t just expect the right solution to a non-human attack on the human race, it's new territory and fortunately 'mistakes' are inevitable when the wise after the event get going with their tirade, like me saying it's China's fault, they have to pay.

I still think that, but I can't critique them with knowledge of China per se.

[Devils_Advocate]

One of the things about growing older is that when the Prime Minister is 10 years younger than you are, you worry for them, for being just humans as far as I know.

One has to take that into account in these matters.

One can''t just expect the right solution to a non-human attack on the human race, it's new territory and fortunately 'mistakes' are inevitable when the wise after the event get going with their tirade, like me saying it's China's fault, they have to pay.

I still think that, but I can't critique them with knowledge of China per se.

Got to give you credit, you've been warning us about places like China amd Japan for ages. To think that I just thought you were a very sad little and bitter racist, what a fool Ive been

[Pstotto]

Absolutely.

Shows that your read into what I say for your own prejudicial views of me, for some reason.

It's the same as saying Enoch Powell was racist because he was aware of tribal and cultural difference and was concerned naturally enough for clashes that might ensue, ESPECIALLY given the 1 million or more deaths during the partition of India and that's just Hindus and Muslims.

Same people... over here.

[Pstotto]

What would you choose for Burnley if you had to chose an immigrant population of your choice, D.A.?

Go on, answer.

20,000 hardened clubbing war veterans from Rwanda, or 20,000 blonde Swedes for example...

Go on.