PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

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Pstotto
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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Pstotto » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:18 pm

Perhaps you're a God 'n' Bleu voter and 'Let's build a society for good hard working Albanian families from Denmark, yah'.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:23 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:42 pm
There's a clue in the words "unprecedented global pandemic"


What you're suggesting is like trying to have all the ingredients before knowing what the recipe is.
There was a practice run on a respiratory virus pandemic in 2016. It illustrated certain vulnerabilities. The government had nine weeks to prepare, and failed to do so. The government massively cut funding to social care over the last ten years, not to mention underfunding the NHS. The government went in-the direction of herd immunity - away from mass testing - and had to change course a week later, because it was wrong. PPE. Not enough testing kits. It’s all a shambles. When will you admit that the government has screwed this up, and lots more people have died as a result?
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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by dsr » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:18 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:23 pm
There was a practice run on a respiratory virus pandemic in 2016. It illustrated certain vulnerabilities. The government had nine weeks to prepare, and failed to do so. The government massively cut funding to social care over the last ten years, not to mention underfunding the NHS. The government went in-the direction of herd immunity - away from mass testing - and had to change course a week later, because it was wrong. PPE. Not enough testing kits. It’s all a shambles. When will you admit that the government has screwed this up, and lots more people have died as a result?
What are the dates of the 9 weeks?

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by cblantfanclub » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:33 am

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:40 am

dsr wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:18 am
What are the dates of the 9 weeks?
See the post above.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by dsr » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:44 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:40 am
See the post above.
I have seen the post above.

What are the dates of the 9 weeks? To put it more simply, you personally have a 9 week period in mind when the government should have been preparing and wasn't doing. What are those dates? By all means refer to the post above if it helps.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Grumps » Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:36 am

TVC15 wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:48 pm
Who is it you know who thinks that ?
Is it “certain people” on this board or just people you know who think that ?
I don’t know of anyone on this board who has said this.
Read the posts after the one above, you'll find your answer. At least two posters say the government have got absolutely nothing right. :lol:

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Burnley Ace » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:02 am

What the Tories should have done is paid their friends millions to manufacture PPE and 10,000 extra ventilators and store them all in a big warehouse just in case there is a pandemic - who would have complained about that?

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by TVC15 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:31 am

Grumps wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:36 am
Read the posts after the one above, you'll find your answer. At least two posters say the government have got absolutely nothing right. :lol:

As you know that’s not what you said.
As a reminder you said that certain people think the government should have got every single decision right. I still can’t see anybody on here who has said that.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Grumps » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:47 am

TVC15 wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:31 am
As you know that’s not what you said.
As a reminder you said that certain people think the government should have got every single decision right. I still can’t see anybody on here who has said that.
Just a different way of saying the same thing, I was being sarcastic, you obviously weren't

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by TVC15 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:10 am

Grumps wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:47 am
Just a different way of saying the same thing, I was being sarcastic, you obviously weren't
Oh ok - the old I was being sarcastic line.
Yeh so was I...obviously

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Grumps » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:13 am

TVC15 wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:10 am
Oh ok - the old I was being sarcastic line.
Yeh so was I...obviously
Ok, you were right, give yourself a pat on the back... Then go for a long walk ( sarcastic comment)
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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by arise_sir_charge » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:18 am

If only all the people on this and other threads that had all the answers were in power.
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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by LeadBelly » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:24 am

HunterST_BFC wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:08 am
PPE

this is real

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52319576

clapping won't help.
Except the bit about the Director of a large NHS trust ringing the BBC wasnt real. The piece now has the correction

"An earlier version of this story reported that a director of a large NHS trust had contacted the BBC with concerns about the provision of gowns for staff. The person concerned is not a director of a trust - the BBC has since been told he is currently part of a network of organisations helping to source PPE for some NHS trusts during the pandemic."

BBC not checking who the caller really was (and why he rang them rather than undertaking the easier task of finding the t/p numbers him/herself) makes it seem that they just wanted to rush into the story for some reason.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by chadders » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:00 am

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 131040.pdf

Don't know if this has been posted but worth a read. UK Influenza Pandemic Preparedness Strategy 2011. You can judge yourselves how well the Gov are doing re PPE. This is a gov report from 2011.

NHS trusts normally have 3 months supply of PPE. Obvioulsy some Trusts will be more stretched than others. In the case of a pandemic the sourcing of PPE is centralised I believe. This was from 2011 so it could have been revised?

Also to add a number of uk manufacturers have offered to manufacture PPE and Ventilators but have been ignored by the Gov. Repeatedly. I don't know why.

keep safe utc

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:52 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:23 pm
There was a practice run on a respiratory virus pandemic in 2016. It illustrated certain vulnerabilities. The government had nine weeks to prepare, and failed to do so. The government massively cut funding to social care over the last ten years, not to mention underfunding the NHS. The government went in-the direction of herd immunity - away from mass testing - and had to change course a week later, because it was wrong. PPE. Not enough testing kits. It’s all a shambles. When will you admit that the government has screwed this up, and lots more people have died as a result?
I'll do it for you Andrew.

"Daily Mail" "The Sun" "Rupert Murdoch" "Right wing media"

There done. Saves us both the myther!

Enjoy the rest of your weekend Andrew.

🌞👍😉

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:53 pm

dsr wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:44 am
I have seen the post above.

What are the dates of the 9 weeks? To put it more simply, you personally have a 9 week period in mind when the government should have been preparing and wasn't doing. What are those dates? By all means refer to the post above if it helps.
Sure. Over three years between the Cygnet test of our pandemic handling measures and the emergence of a virus with pandemic possibilities. A test we apparently flunked so badly that the report was too terrifying to publish. Three years during which little seems to have been done other than refuse to get the appropriate PPE because “it’s too expensive.”

Having run a recent test that identified our shortcomings the government had nine weeks from the beginning of January when we knew the virus was there to the middle of March, when the government decided to pursue the herd immunity stance that the government could have used to fill these already identified shortfalls - knowing that their herd immunity would result in a lot of people getting ill. By any measure the government has let us down.
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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by dsr » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:56 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:53 pm
Sure. Over three years between the Cygnet test of our pandemic handling measures and the emergence of a virus with pandemic possibilities. A test we apparently flunked so badly that the report was too terrifying to publish. Three years during which little seems to have been done other than refuse to get the appropriate PPE because “it’s too expensive.”

Having run a recent test that identified our shortcomings the government had nine weeks from the beginning of January when we knew the virus was there to the middle of March, when the government decided to pursue the herd immunity stance that the government could have used to fill these already identified shortfalls - knowing that their herd immunity would result in a lot of people getting ill. By any measure the government has let us down.
OK, beginning of January, now you have committed yourself. On 2nd January, the BBC reported that there were 44 cases of an unknown virus in Wuhan, 11 of them serious. That's when the Cobra committee and the Sage committee should have been activated, is it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-50984025

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:56 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:52 am
I'll do it for you Andrew.

"Daily Mail" "The Sun" "Rupert Murdoch" "Right wing media"

There done. Saves us both the myther!

Enjoy the rest of your weekend Andrew.

🌞👍😉
So the usual fingers in ears, and head in the sand response from you.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:11 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:56 pm
So the usual fingers in ears, and head in the sand response from you.
Absolutely!

That way, we dont spoil a pair Andrew!

👍🌞

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Siddo » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:23 pm

What is it about coronavirus that brings every conspiracy nut, Brexit fanatic and flat earthers to deny there is any problem and that the government is doing a sterling job.
This government has blood on its hands. They are solely responsible for many more deaths than there needed to be and sadly there will be thousands more.
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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by dsr » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:38 pm

Siddo wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:23 pm
This government has blood on its hands. They are solely responsible for many more deaths than there needed to be and sadly there will be thousands more.
Just as a rough guide, what proportion of the deaths would you say were as a result of government mistakes and what proportion would you take as an acceptable result of government mistakes? Assuming you don't think they should have made no mistakes, that is?

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by bfccrazy » Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:32 am

I don’t work in a medical capacity but we need PPE to do our job every day. We’re currently struggling to source new PPE as it is all (rightly) being earmarked for health services.

Our overalls are made in Bulgaria who have put the production factories into lockdown so we can’t get them there like usual, the gloves we need are unavailable and we’re having to transport in PPE from other branches of the business across Europe who have closed due to the current state of Corona in those countries.

Even with cost not being a problem for the owners to source our PPE, it is difficult to actually get hold of stuff and we’re having to ship it in from France and Ireland and Romania along with other goods we need to keep working. It’s madness at the minute.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by HunterST_BFC » Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:40 am

i POSTED THE OP way back

There are some keyboard experts looking a bit silly now.
If being a bit silly was a get out clause. The Gov has failed

The Times today.

Sadly this as with other threads has become politically aligned.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO YOU VOTE FOR - THIS HAS BEEN A COCKUP.
PEOPLE ARE DEAD BECAUSE OF INACTION

Read the article - it's facts are damming and the info was there to see at the times.

The NHS especially and care workers etc are being treated like the "The Charge of the Light Brigade".

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by pureclaret » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:26 pm

with out going political about who said what when etc, PPE has a shelf life if not used then is thrown away . so not sure what would have been the case if each ppe kit costs £145 and nhs stored an extra months supply on top of what is used under normal monthly use and then just binned some £145 million pounds worth every month since 2016 would all politicians, news reporters and key board warriors have been saying miss management of NHS by heads of NHS. Guess that applies to everything when you run a business like hospitals.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:25 pm

I was hoping this thread might have been unrolled as I know not everyone uses Twitter but for those who do this is a really good read

Matt Warman Con MP for Boston & Skegness in a fantastic act of transparency has shared PPE stock levels and daily usage rates for his local hospital trust in Lincolnshire

When you start to wrap these figures up to a national level it really highlights the colossal task the govt and the NHS face meeting demand in this crisis. On the flip side it throws up some questions around the numbers Hancock has been putting out there making them look like chicken feed in the true scheme of things

I think some real kudos for this MP and how much better could our questions, conversations and understanding of the PPE issue be if we got transparency like this from all our MPs

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 6039574531

Image
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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by taio » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:48 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:25 pm
I was hoping this thread might have been unrolled as I know not everyone uses Twitter but for those who do this is a really good read

Matt Warman Con MP for Boston & Skegness in a fantastic act of transparency has shared PPE stock levels and daily usage rates for his local hospital trust in Lincolnshire

When you start to wrap these figures up to a national level it really highlights the colossal task the govt and the NHS face meeting demand in this crisis. On the flip side it throws up some questions around the numbers Hancock has been putting out there making them look like chicken feed in the true scheme of things

I think some real kudos for this MP and how much better could our questions, conversations and understanding of the PPE issue be if we got transparency like this from all our MPs

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 6039574531

Image
Frontline staff continue to be worried and deserve adequate protection. The numbers are staggering though. About 1 billion items of PPE already supplied. I also read government had stockpiled 25,000 pallets of PPE in the event of pandemic. It's an enormous challenge here and across the world. It's hard to appreciate the scale of the problem. It's a hand to mouth type scenario in many ways, meaning health and care organisations and staff understandably get frightened when they just have a few days of remaining stock.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:04 pm

Yep and I know its not always possible or easy to do but if we can get transparency like this nationwide it really helps us have adult conversations and dispel the rubbish spouted on both sides

When you see these numbers laid bare we shouldn't need to have to paint an over positive picture and hush up workers concerns and at the same time it should really discredit the attack dogs who make it difficult for those in charge to say look we're struggling and finding things hard

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by tiger76 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:26 pm

'Not true' UK government ignored manufacturer on PPE
The government has had more than 8,000 offers from suppliers of personal protective equipment (PPE) and is prioritising those of “larger volumes”, Downing St says.

Amid criticism that companies have not had offers taken up, the prime minister’s spokesman said the government needed to make sure they met safety and quality standards.

The spokesman said it was “not true” that the government had ignored one particular company, Veenak, saying “they registered the offer on April 5th and would have got an immediate response.”

“We are working as hard as we can with international partners to bring PPE in and at the same time trying to increase domestic supply,” he said.

Regarding a consignment of PPE from Turkey, the government was “continuing to work to ensure this shipment is delivered as soon as it is ready.”

There had been consternation after the government said the shipment would arrive on Sunday, but it turned out not to be ready.

So who's telling the truth?,you pays your money and takes your choice.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by dsr » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:50 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:26 pm
The spokesman said it was “not true” that the government had ignored one particular company, Veenak, saying “they registered the offer on April 5th and would have got an immediate response.”
If Veenak couldn't find a buyer for PPE in March, then they need to sack their sales staff.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by tiger76 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:20 pm

Again a BBC news item,something doesn't add up here.

A businessman has been left angry after his offer of 450 visors a day to the NHS has apparently been ignored.

Paul Dodd says he has spent £8,000 on materials and wages for the work but after four weeks has been forced to stop.

Mr Dodd, owner of Weaver Dane and Trade in Cheshire, said: "I knew there was a risk buying materials but I thought I was doing the right thing by helping."

The Cabinet Office has been asked by the BBC for a response.

The government says it is working "around the clock" to provide PPE, but NHS workers are concerned about supplies, and have been asked to consider reusing some equipment.

Mr Dodd, who said he had already donated 2,300 visors to local hospitals as part of a separate crowdfunding project, said he made the offer to manufacture visors on the government's website.

He employs nine people and said he had sourced the necessary materials for the work before they sold out and started work on a further 1,300 visors which are stockpiled and ready to go.

He spoke of his "frustration" and "disbelief", adding: "I've heard heartbreaking stories, with [NHS staff] in tears."

After setting up a Facebook page publicising his efforts, Mr Dodd said he was contacted individually by a surgeon, who asked for 75 visors.

The surgeon said he was not prepared to go to work without them, and later emailed to thank him, saying he had carried out a "cardiac procedure" and saved a woman's life, Mr Dodd explained.

Mr Dodd said he had adhered to government standards in the production of the visors but there was "too much red tape" and people were "passing the buck".

His last sentence hits a note with me,which is why somebody needs to grab the bull by the horns,and get stuff moving ASAP,i'm fed up hearing excuse after excuse being wheeled out by various cabinet ministers,“Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions”is the phrase that springs to mind,this isn't about apportioning blame it's about fixing the failings whatever they might be.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by tiger76 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:10 pm

Stray email meant UK did not join EU scheme - care minister
Care minister Helen Whately says it is "very frustrating" that "an email went astray" meaning the UK did not participate in an EU scheme to source medical equipment.

On Tuesday, a senior civil servant retracted claims the UK had taken a "political decision" not to join the scheme.

Whately told BBC Radio 4's Today programme it was a "communication error".

The MP also said it is "really troubling" not as many people in the UK are being tested for coronavirus as could be.

She said the UK has the capacity to carry out 40,000 tests per day but on Tuesday only 18,000 were tested.

Whately said the government will try to improve the access to tests by increasing mobile testing units and sending out home testing kits to NHS and care workers.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by tiger76 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:10 pm

More now on the UK government's attempts to acquire more personal protective equipment (PPE) for health and social care workers.

Labour's shadow health secretary Jon Ashworth has called on the government to "mobilise British firms" to make PPE.

The government remains under pressure for failing to supply enough PPE and a number of British companies have told the BBC their offers to help have been ignored.

Care minister Helen Whately told Radio 4's Today programme the government had responded to 3,000 of 8,000 offers from companies, but was concentrating on those with established supply chains.

Ashworth said the delay in responding to offers was "understandable" but called for more focus to be given to making PPE in the UK, pointing to the delays in equipment arriving from Turkey as an example of issues with sourcing it internationally.

"It may be companies can only make small quantities of it but that doesn't matter," Ashworth told BBC Breakfast.

"We need everybody doing what they can as part of this national effort.

"It is absolutely vital we are supporting small businesses because they are backbone of economy."

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by tiger76 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:12 pm

What is the EU procurement process and what happened with the UK?

The EU’s Joint Procurement Agreement has four schemes - two for personal protective equipment (PPE), one for ventilators, one for laboratory equipment, mainly testing kits.

The EU Commission has confirmed that the UK is not involved in any of them, and has not officially requested to be involved in any of them, despite being “repeatedly invited” by the EU to do so.

Other non-EU countries have joined up.

The first meeting to establish this joint procurement plan took place at the end of January, two days before the UK left the EU and entered the transition phase.

Several other EU meetings on procurement took place, to which a UK representative was “not always there” according to EU officials.

On the 17 March the procurement procedure was launched, and member states started a public tendering process for suppliers.

The EU Commission says they are now waiting for member states to put in their orders for the PPE and medical equipment they need and first allocations will be in the “coming days and weeks”.

The EU hasn’t put a figure on the total bulk of purchases they’ve made, as “some countries are still finding more suppliers”, but it’s understood to be worth hundreds of millions of euros.

The EU says the UK can be part of a “procurement programme in future”, as there are ongoing discussions about what else might be needed.

The deadline has been missed on the current programme.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by FactualFrank » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:13 pm

Firthy wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:42 am
The OP asked for non political angles. He should have also asked for non personal angles. Yet another thread that is degenerating into people having a go at each other.
He should have asked for a lotto win while he was at it.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by dsr » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:15 pm

How can you have a discussion about PPE without political angles? What else is there to talk about? "PPE - is it a good thing, or not" won't get much of a discussion.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by tiger76 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:28 pm

I don't see anybody having a go at each other,arguing valid points robustly yes,but there's far worse threads on UTC than this.
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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by AlargeClaret » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:39 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:20 pm
Again a BBC news item,something doesn't add up here.

A businessman has been left angry after his offer of 450 visors a day to the NHS has apparently been ignored.

Paul Dodd says he has spent £8,000 on materials and wages for the work but after four weeks has been forced to stop.

Mr Dodd, owner of Weaver Dane and Trade in Cheshire, said: "I knew there was a risk buying materials but I thought I was doing the right thing by helping."

The Cabinet Office has been asked by the BBC for a response.

The government says it is working "around the clock" to provide PPE, but NHS workers are concerned about supplies, and have been asked to consider reusing some equipment.

Mr Dodd, who said he had already donated 2,300 visors to local hospitals as part of a separate crowdfunding project, said he made the offer to manufacture visors on the government's website.

He employs nine people and said he had sourced the necessary materials for the work before they sold out and started work on a further 1,300 visors which are stockpiled and ready to go.

He spoke of his "frustration" and "disbelief", adding: "I've heard heartbreaking stories, with [NHS staff] in tears."

After setting up a Facebook page publicising his efforts, Mr Dodd said he was contacted individually by a surgeon, who asked for 75 visors.

The surgeon said he was not prepared to go to work without them, and later emailed to thank him, saying he had carried out a "cardiac procedure" and saved a woman's life, Mr Dodd explained.

Mr Dodd said he had adhered to government standards in the production of the visors but there was "too much red tape" and people were "passing the buck".

His last sentence hits a note with me,which is why somebody needs to grab the bull by the horns,and get stuff moving ASAP,i'm fed up hearing excuse after excuse being wheeled out by various cabinet ministers,“Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions”is the phrase that springs to mind,this isn't about apportioning blame it's about fixing the failings whatever they might be.
This is a case of some guy gambling on materials from China and hoping to make a quick buck by supplying the govt ( no lack of entrepreneurial spirit at all ) THEN throwing his toys out when it didn’t come off fully . He really thought by emailing the govt he’d secure even a “ casual “ supply deal ? Nhs procurements have been done virtually in house trust by trust since the off . This hasn’t stopped the more enterprising ( a tough word to apply to any trust ) trusts putting feelers out and getting what they can . As the NHS is a cow more sacred than any, no one dare blame the preposterous inadequacy and red tape of the nhs supplier deals,and the mind blowing over the odds prices they pay

Devils_Advocate
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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:40 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:28 pm
I don't see anybody having a go at each other,arguing valid points robustly yes,but there's far worse threads on UTC than this.
Dont always agree with your take on things but you have done a great job with one or two others of just laying out info in a factual and coherent way that has a foot either side of the political divide

There's a place (within reason) for more partisan and challenging discussions but having a stream of information that is not routed heavily in political opinion and bias is very refreshing and useful
This user liked this post: tiger76

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:19 pm

According to Dr Nick, or whatever his name is on GMB, there is plenty of PPE, or at least ventilators, gloves face masks. The only thing they are short on is scrubs. This seems very odd to me. When I worked in the NHS we changed scrubs daily, take into account you can take your scrubs home and wash them yourself (in theory), why is there a shortage!
The local women have been buying up cloth, cutting out scrubs, then have a team of dedicated ladies coming in to take the packs home and sewing them together. So far they have made about 400 sets of scrubs. No mean achievement for a small community, yet I still don't understand where the shortage has come from, unless they have a wear once, incinerate when finished policy, there should be plenty.

IanMcL
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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by IanMcL » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:21 pm

dsr wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:38 pm
Just as a rough guide, what proportion of the deaths would you say were as a result of government mistakes and what proportion would you take as an acceptable result of government mistakes? Assuming you don't think they should have made no mistakes, that is?
These are not 'mistakes'.
This is a failure of preparedness and s failure to take correct decisions in a timely manner. In addition, the element of corruption should be investigated, as proper manufacturers were ignored in favour of mates. Who is making money here, directly or indirectly?

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by dsr » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:57 pm

IanMcL wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:21 pm
These are not 'mistakes'.
This is a failure of preparedness and s failure to take correct decisions in a timely manner. In addition, the element of corruption should be investigated, as proper manufacturers were ignored in favour of mates. Who is making money here, directly or indirectly?
Now you're being silly. Of course not being prepared is a mistake. There must have been times in your life when you were doing something and found you hadn't prepared properly - was that a mistake? Or was it a deliberate malicious act whereby you hoped to do someone harm?

Of course they should investigate corruption. There's every sign of it. When they have simultaneously spent too much money and not enough money and they have simultaneously ignored private suppliers and used private suppliers too much, what other explanation can there be but corruption? You've got them all ways.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by IanMcL » Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:15 pm

Dsr...you are very forgiving.

A mistake is when you do something incorrectly, as a result of a decision.

Not being prepared, after failing miserably in a pandemic planning scenario, despite knowing one is likely, is hardly a 'mistake'.

The current failure is entirely due to conscious political decisions, NOT TO TAKE THE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS, since 2016.

Not using the known suppliers and issuing contracts to plant hire and vacuum cleaner makers is very smelly indeed.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by tiger76 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:27 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:40 pm
Dont always agree with your take on things but you have done a great job with one or two others of just laying out info in a factual and coherent way that has a foot either side of the political divide

There's a place (within reason) for more partisan and challenging discussions but having a stream of information that is not routed heavily in political opinion and bias is very refreshing and useful
Thanks for your courteous praise,but i just call "BS" out from both sides when i see it,i'm probably one of the few on this forum who's not wedded to a specific political ideology,so that helps me take a neutral stance,and judge the actions of politicians of all shades by their words and more importantly their deeds,if i feel they're not doing as they promised then they'll get criticism from me,whichever party they represent.

Information can always be subjective and interpreted differently depending on your existing viewpoint,but that'll always be the case,we all have a certain level of conscious bias,whether we realise it or not,that''s just human nature,it's just like if we're on the turf,or watching the match on telly,in the heat of the moment we'll often feel the officials are against us,but when we watch the highlights later,we'll sometimes realise that they were correct and we were wrong.

I try and take a step back before posting,and assess the comments or facts the previous poster may have put,i must admit during the brexit debates that was hard,and i didn't always succeed,but my general cynical view of politicians means i'm not :o when they fail to deliver,hence why i don't expect much from whoever's in power,that way i'm not disappointed.

The famous saying “No Matter Who You Vote For The Government Always Get In”: has a ring of truth to it.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by dsr » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:24 pm

IanMcL wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:15 pm
Dsr...you are very forgiving.

A mistake is when you do something incorrectly, as a result of a decision.

Not being prepared, after failing miserably in a pandemic planning scenario, despite knowing one is likely, is hardly a 'mistake'.

The current failure is entirely due to conscious political decisions, NOT TO TAKE THE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS, since 2016.

Not using the known suppliers and issuing contracts to plant hire and vacuum cleaner makers is very smelly indeed.
And you're very confusing.

A mistake is when you do something incorrectly as a result of a decision (line 1). This government did something incorrectly as a result of decisions (line 3). So how do you conclude from that that this wasn't a mistake?

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Taffy on the wing » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:45 am

You're doing it again!....They didn't make a mistake....they didn't take it seriously! Despite plenty of forewarning (weeks).
They made a balls of it!...They were arrogant, and thought they knew more than the experts. Now they are exposed for the phonies that they are.........they are nothing but Shills for big Business & in it for what they can get for themselves. They don't give a damn about the average person!

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:16 am

IanMcL wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:15 pm
Dsr...you are very forgiving.

A mistake is when you do something incorrectly, as a result of a decision.

Not being prepared, after failing miserably in a pandemic planning scenario, despite knowing one is likely, is hardly a 'mistake'.

The current failure is entirely due to conscious political decisions, NOT TO TAKE THE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS, since 2016.

Not using the known suppliers and issuing contracts to plant hire and vacuum cleaner makers is very smelly indeed.
Given they are using 12-14million pieces of PPE per day, how many items would you have stockpiled in a warehouse just in case there was a global pandemic?

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:20 am

Taffy on the wing wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:45 am
You're doing it again!....They didn't make a mistake....they didn't take it seriously! Despite plenty of forewarning (weeks).
They made a balls of it!...They were arrogant, and thought they knew more than the experts. Now they are exposed for the phonies that they are.........they are nothing but Shills for big Business & in it for what they can get for themselves. They don't give a damn about the average person!
If they were shills for big business wouldn’t they have just said to their “friends in manufacturing” - I’ve got a great plan, we will pay you to make 100,000,000 surgical gowns and then pay you to store them for years just in case there’s a global pandemic!! It’s a win win, whose going to complain? And once you finished the gowns I will order the same number of face masks!!

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by dsr » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:06 am

Taffy on the wing wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:45 am
You're doing it again!....They didn't make a mistake....they didn't take it seriously! Despite plenty of forewarning (weeks).
They made a balls of it!...They were arrogant, and thought they knew more than the experts. Now they are exposed for the phonies that they are.........they are nothing but Shills for big Business & in it for what they can get for themselves. They don't give a damn about the average person!
And what the blankety-blank do you think "They made a balls of it" means? It means they made a mistake, in stronger language.

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Re: PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

Post by IanMcL » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:48 am

Burnley Ace wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:20 am
If they were shills for big business wouldn’t they have just said to their “friends in manufacturing” - I’ve got a great plan, we will pay you to make 100,000,000 surgical gowns and then pay you to store them for years just in case there’s a global pandemic!! It’s a win win, whose going to complain? And once you finished the gowns I will order the same number of face masks!!
No. That would have leaked. There has to be a reason.

The reason could have been pandemic prep but then supply could be done, over time, by normal supply.

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