Wheres Boris...

[Elizabeth]

You are never too far away, although since Tony gave his warning I can tell you are being more careful and keeping your posts to as few a words as you possibly can

[evensteadiereddie]

Even more bizarre.
What the hell are you talking about ?

[Elizabeth]

I think it is clear to anyone who knows your posting history what I'm talking about

[Elizabeth]

And let me inform you I'm not going to be drawn into a childish exchange of words with you

[evensteadiereddie]

Well, if you'd like to take a look at my recent history, you'll see that over half of my posts show no evidence whatsoever of keeping my "posts to an absolute minimum."
And yes, I've not particularly got involved with your accounts -or others' for that matter because, like most folks - if you look at recent traffic on here, I can't really be arsed arguing stupid points re Trump or Johnson.
A few of us were having a discussion re the future of the Tories and Labour's response to it and you mixed in with a snarky comment.
No idea why you thought that was a good idea, hence the justified "bizarre" comment.
Lo and behold, you then try and stir it up by bringing the past up.

Sorry, mate, but I'm not playing but you crack on.

Tell you what, though, I've never been banned for making homophobic comments or owt else, for that matter.............
So, off you pop, stick to the topic being discussed or, as CT reminded us/you - shut up.

Stay safe....

[evensteadiereddie]

And let me inform you I'm not going to be drawn into a childish exchange of words with you

Love it, absolutely love it.

Off you pop, kid.

[thatdberight]

...homelessness was ended in one weekend...

Briefly. Taking the relatively small number of people we have in this country off the street and putting them in hotels at a time when hotels happen to be all but uninhabited isn't solving anything. Many of those people have been through countless interventions with lots of people there to help them and they don't just fall through the cracks - they wriggle through them.

Not all of them, of course, and I don't doubt there will be some who take advantage of this chance and turn it round. Well done them and the people who help them.

And whatever the Tories do, it will never be as much as what Labour offer.

On this I agree. Labour will always offer more. Deliver? Not so much. But always good at offering.

[evensteadiereddie]

It will be interesting to see how many of the homeless are able to take advantage of this respite and thrive. The labour market will be grim, I can't see anybody not used to work gaining any kind of foothold.

[Elizabeth]

You post of one word 'Bizarre' would count as a short post.
In the past you would have been more confrontational and insulting.

[evensteadiereddie]

Enough, already !

[tiger76]

Coming back to the question at hand,there was an update on the PM,during the UK government briefing.

Boris Johnson 'resting and recuperating' - minister
On the health of PM Boris Johnson, who is recovering from Covid-19, the communities secretary says: "You know he's resting and recuperating at Chequers" (the official country retreat of the British prime minister, in Buckinghamshire).

He has had some contact with ministers, but mostly with his private office at Downing Street, Jenrick says.

We all hope he takes the time to recover, he says, adding that foreign secretary Dominic Raab continues to deputise in his place.

[ksrclaret]

Well done lads for not letting Elisabeth ruin this perfectly amicable thread before interrupting with unnecessary personal comments.

Reports suggesting Johnson is up and about walking around Chequers. He’s doing well by all accounts, but surely won’t be in a position to resume his duties any time soon. The next decision of whether to extend or relax the lockdown is a really tough one...

[Elizabeth]

It's a toss up whether you or the other one is the biggest Ringo obsessor

[ksrclaret]

And let me inform you I'm not going to be drawn into a childish exchange of words with you

This hasn't aged well

[tim_noone]

Anyway..........it would be nice if Boris could put in an appearance from his Lair and let his public know hes on the mend officially.

[ksrclaret]

Anyway..........it would be nice if Boris could put in an appearance from his Lair and let his public know hes on the mend officially.

He's done a video, hasn't he?

[tim_noone]

He's done a video, hasn't he?

Oh I didn't know.....and for the record has anyone got a clip of his Very first live Corona news bulletin?? The fear on his face on what he was maybe aware of was Very Very Evident.

[Elizabeth]

So what is it that makes you highlight my comment to the other one.
Am I not allowed a response to your comment?

[ksrclaret]

Oh I didn't know.....and for the record has anyone got a clip of his Very first live Corona news bulletin?? The fear on his face on what he was maybe aware of was Very Very Evident.

Out of hospital video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkZhyNbGWdY

[Elizabeth]

I thought so ksr, log off unable to respond.
I think it's on record the way you also unsuccessfully tried to undermine Kate R this week.

[tim_noone]

Out of hospital video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkZhyNbGWdY

Yes I got it thanks ..he looks pretty upbeat.sorry I'd watched the chequers one

[ksrclaret]

Yes I got it thanks ..he looks pretty upbeat.sorry I'd watched the chequers one

He does. Despite that though he surely can't be up to performing the duties of a PM in the near future after spending a few nights in ICU.

Whilst in the mean time the next few weeks will bring some tough calls on whether to extend or relax the lockdown. Wonder how much involvement he'll have in that. If it's relax, which I'm hoping it can be, that will require a massive strategic effort.

[dermotdermot]

Out of hospital video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkZhyNbGWdY

That’s the first time that I’ve seen this video. He looks remarkably well under the circumstances.

[KateR]

I’m sure there’ll be plenty for Labour to do. This crisis illustrates what a wasted decade we’ve had with austerity. Even with their media cheerleaders, the Tories aren’t going to be able to escape the blame for that. Their philosophy of the last forty years has suffered two major collisions with reality. The financial crisis, and and now the Covid response. It is now in tatters, and things won’t go back to how they were. When people can point out that homelessness was ended in one weekend, they won’t be able to say “it’s too complicated” in the future. The NHS? That’ll be off the table in trade discussions now. And whatever the Tories do, it will never be as much as what Labour offer.

I noticed Sunak has created £200Billion through quantitative easing. Paul Waine must be chewing his beard in rage at such economic heresy.

I believe you are seriously misguided and somewhat guided by the same principals you have blindly followed for several years that you have shown to everyone.

The fact that this Gov was talking about coming out of Austerity and showing the path forward including investment and bringing N & S closer points to a clear change between the present Gov and the one for the last 10 years. There have been numerous mistakes made around C-19 but my belief is that people will understand many of them and will look to the reaction over the rest of 202 and how coming out of this along with how the economy will be the deciding thing, not loyal blind political allegiances. It's just a difference of opinions and there is still plenty of time to do judging along with changing the mind, however I don't see plenty for labour to do, other than what normal opposition parties do, yet I am hopeful that we will see something from Labour that is helpful and meaningful. Do you have any thoughts, rationale on what these things labour might be able to do, such that I can look and try to understand your thought process and perhaps change my view of where we are today and for the near future, out to Q4 - 2021?

[gawthorpe_view]

The Sunday Times have an article about Boris tomorrow, saying he missed 5 COBRA meetings disappeared at weekends, failed to act on requests to stockpile PPE...
I can't provide a link as it's behind a paywall.

[KateR]

The Sunday Times have an article about Boris tomorrow, saying he missed 5 COBRA meetings disappeared at weekends, failed to act on requests to stockpile PPE...
I can't provide a link as it's behind a paywall.

I hope it's true, he is supposed to be resting on doctors orders, it's not like there will be nothing for him to do if he has another week of rest is it?

[Taffy on the wing]

Elizabeth wasn't working.........here comes the late shift!

[dougcollins]

Ironic when you think about it, in a different universe Boris and the Brexit Bounders would have been selling off the NHS to Trump, but instead they're saving his life.

[TVC15]

I hope it's true, he is supposed to be resting on doctors orders, it's not like there will be nothing for him to do if he has another week of rest is it?

I suspect the article refers to the period before he got ill !!

[Devils_Advocate]

Refers to Feb and I've posted on the Covid thread. The full article is firewalled and my guess would be subscribers on her will be more right of centre so wont share the fuller article

Hopefully someone will and it can be discussed in an intelligent manner

[thatdberight]

Refers to Feb and I've posted on the Covid thread. The full article is firewalled and my guess would be subscribers on her will be more right of centre so wont share the fuller article

Hopefully someone will and it can be discussed in an intelligent manner

Good degree of paranoia that right-wingers won't share what a paper says. That level of prejudgement of anyone so desperately right-wing that they subscribe to The Times suggests that if an intelligent discussion is to follow, you'd best take a seat instead of contributing.

[Devils_Advocate]

Good degree of paranoia that right-wingers won't share what a paper says. That level of prejudgement of anyone so desperately right-wing that they subscribe to The Times suggests that if an intelligent discussion is to follow, you'd best take a seat instead of contributing.

Im not paranoid but the reality is people are not likely to actively promote a view against their own view

I think (yes just think) that a lot of more left minded people look at more modern news streams through SM which are open to everyone rather than behind a paywall.

I dont think its controversial or paranoid to suggest that the older generation are more right leaning and are also the generation that subscribe more to specific newspaper outlets

Just to clarify Im not suggesting one way or another is better or worse but just that the news storys is not accessible to all

behind subscription paywalls will be more accessible to more right leaning people like yourself than left leaning people like me

Edit: Just to add I probably was baiting a little bit to hopefully get someone to share it but honestly my motives are true

[KateR]

I suspect the article refers to the period before he got ill !!

OK, wasn't aware, I thought the latest's posts here were in reference to when he left hospital.

[KateR]

Elizabeth wasn't working.........here comes the late shift!

thank you for your invaluable input as always, really does get one's creative juices going, I see your usual fan club are liking, just need Rex and you'll have a full house and your job will be done for the evening, you'll be able to sleep well knowing your fan club are behind you cheering you on.

[AndrewJB]

I believe you are seriously misguided and somewhat guided by the same principals you have blindly followed for several years that you have shown to everyone.

The fact that this Gov was talking about coming out of Austerity and showing the path forward including investment and bringing N & S closer points to a clear change between the present Gov and the one for the last 10 years. There have been numerous mistakes made around C-19 but my belief is that people will understand many of them and will look to the reaction over the rest of 202 and how coming out of this along with how the economy will be the deciding thing, not loyal blind political allegiances. It's just a difference of opinions and there is still plenty of time to do judging along with changing the mind, however I don't see plenty for labour to do, other than what normal opposition parties do, yet I am hopeful that we will see something from Labour that is helpful and meaningful. Do you have any thoughts, rationale on what these things labour might be able to do, such that I can look and try to understand your thought process and perhaps change my view of where we are today and for the near future, out to Q4 - 2021?

It's not a clear change between this government and the one for the previous ten years. Most of the sitting Tory MPs voted for that austerity, including Johnson himself. The clip of them cheering after voting down a payrise for nurses is all over the internet.

They haven't handled this crisis very well, in my opinion, for reasons I've outlined already. I think once the facts become known, they'll feature in Labour (and other parties) literature more than they will in Tory pamphlets.

On the economy they've just spent huge sums of money trying to keep everything running. It's not going to work, because they've left everybody's financial obligations in place. Somebody I spoke to at work on Friday described how a friend began a travel agency in January. He's got a lease on a property, and no means of paying for it. He's going to lose his shirt now. That, and all the other business failures we'll see over the year are all because the government has not legislated to pause the economy. Even though there's an unprecedented crisis facing the country, they're still acting in the interests of big money, rather than the majority of people.

There's no way the economy can bounce back after this, if a lot of people have to suddenly fork out for several months of rent, loan repayments, car payments, and so on. Lots of companies will disappear. The knock on effect will will bring down other businesses, and ruin other people. And all because the government won't act radically enough. The government is handing out billions to ordinary people, but that money will all end up in the hands of the people at the top of the pile. They are the ones the government is actually protecting.

So my prognosis for Q4 2021 isn't sunny. We might still be in the grip of the virus itself - considering an ex WHO chief recently warned we might see up to eight waves. We just don't know. But unless the government takes more decisive action to protect the majority of people, rather than just those at the top, it won't be pretty.

[thatdberight]

...I probably was baiting a little bit...

Whatever. I don't "foe" people - but I'll be trying to ignore you from now on since you've shown your true colours again.

[gawthorpe_view]

I suspect the article refers to the period before he got ill !!

Correct.

[Devils_Advocate]

Whatever. I don't "foe" people - but I'll be trying to ignore you from now on since you've shown your true colours again.

Whatever but I think you have either deliberately or unintentionally read the wrong meaning into my words

By baiting I mean if my presumption is correct that the people who have access to this article are the people who would disagree with it then I want to try and stir the kind of initial reaction I got from you (but from somebody who has access to the article)

That way the logical next step is that I can say well go and share it

By baited I didnt mean to troll or wind someone up but was just looking for a way to get the article shared for genuine discussion

I might be wrong but you are an intelligent and normally balanced poster so I can only assume your last response is opportunism. I hope im wrong and I hope you understand my genuine position but if not its no big deal

[AndrewJB]

Briefly. Taking the relatively small number of people we have in this country off the street and putting them in hotels at a time when hotels happen to be all but uninhabited isn't solving anything. Many of those people have been through countless interventions with lots of people there to help them and they don't just fall through the cracks - they wriggle through them.

Not all of them, of course, and I don't doubt there will be some who take advantage of this chance and turn it round. Well done them and the people who help them.



On this I agree. Labour will always offer more. Deliver? Not so much. But always good at offering.

My overarching point is that the government has intervened massively in the economy - when we've always been told that the free market is so sacrosanct that injustices such as homelessness and poverty were sacrifices worth making. Now, we know that's not true.

[dsr]

Ironic when you think about it, in a different universe Boris and the Brexit Bounders would have been selling off the NHS to Trump, but instead they're saving his live.

This has been explained before. You cannot sell the NHS because it has no commercial value. The NHS is an organisation that has no commercial income, all it has is the duty to treat British people and most British residents for all their ailments, free of charge. No-one would buy that.

Now, if you are saying that Americans would be involved in providing that healthcare, that's a different issue. They very likely will. You may say that only British people should be involved in providing NHS healthcare; but as Boris specifically thanked a New Zealander and a Portuguese for his treatment, we would have to assume that he doesn't share those views.

[TVC15]

https://apple.news/AmW-6p3aHRcOrDMiGZR3kig

[TVC15]

I pretended I was a Tory and infiltrated the pay / firewall.

I feel dirty but I did it for the greater good.

[KateR]

It's not a clear change between this government and the one for the previous ten years. Most of the sitting Tory MPs voted for that austerity, including Johnson himself. The clip of them cheering after voting down a payrise for nurses is all over the internet.

They haven't handled this crisis very well, in my opinion, for reasons I've outlined already. I think once the facts become known, they'll feature in Labour (and other parties) literature more than they will in Tory pamphlets.

On the economy they've just spent huge sums of money trying to keep everything running. It's not going to work, because they've left everybody's financial obligations in place. Somebody I spoke to at work on Friday described how a friend began a travel agency in January. He's got a lease on a property, and no means of paying for it. He's going to lose his shirt now. That, and all the other business failures we'll see over the year are all because the government has not legislated to pause the economy. Even though there's an unprecedented crisis facing the country, they're still acting in the interests of big money, rather than the majority of people.

There's no way the economy can bounce back after this, if a lot of people have to suddenly fork out for several months of rent, loan repayments, car payments, and so on. Lots of companies will disappear. The knock on effect will will bring down other businesses, and ruin other people. And all because the government won't act radically enough. The government is handing out billions to ordinary people, but that money will all end up in the hands of the people at the top of the pile. They are the ones the government is actually protecting.

So my prognosis for Q4 2021 isn't sunny. We might still be in the grip of the virus itself - considering an ex WHO chief recently warned we might see up to eight waves. We just don't know. But unless the government takes more decisive action to protect the majority of people, rather than just those at the top, it won't be pretty.

Andrew ,
thank you for the response, fairly much what I expected from you to be honest because I believe and have said the same on many threads you can not see any good anywhere in a Tory Party regardless of what they do and say, so I believe you are not looking at anything objectively but merely from one single almost fanatical belief but we will see in the future as we move forward.

Regarding C-19, I think pretty much everyone believes there is no easy fix and we will be out of it in May/June and starting to recover, more waves are to be expected until vaccine or heard saturation hits with everyone hoping and praying for the former.

We totally agree no way the economy anywhere will simply bounce back in the vast majority of countries. We agree many people will suffer economically, how about the people 2019 bought a second home 2019 with the intent of investing life savings in total safety of bricks and mortar say in London, large second mortgage to be paid back by rent, but you're advocating rents are to be suspended, so what happens then?

I think much of the billions going to ordinary people will end back up in the economy, don't believe many are going to be upgrading cars or homes, groceries etc. will/should be first port of call, millions still in work won't hardly see a blip except be glad to get into work again. Many more millions on furlough will help for them to keep going without going in to debt, hopefully majority get back in full time.

So we have millions out of work, much more than before totally agree, therefore we need to provide the stimulus for new jobs, I personally don't care what someone did in 2019/18/17 etc., I care what they do in 2020 and will judge them off that, and if they don't provide that stimulus and try to go to austerity I promise I'll stand beside you shouting shame/shame, change.

The economy and recovery I am looking at with some companies is showing 35% down on Q1 2020, for Q2&3, Q4 30% down, Q2 2021 is 20% down with Q4 2021 back to Q1 2020. This is across similar industries and there is optimist growth across the same period through energy transition, admittedly that is global and not just UK. What I do know is a lot of people will be trying there hardest to make the recover happen but in total agreement Governments everywhere are the catalyst to this.

H2S I hope is part of what I hope to see going forward.

[thatdberight]

My overarching point is that the government has intervened massively in the economy - when we've always been told that the free market is so sacrosanct that injustices such as homelessness and poverty were sacrifices worth making. Now, we know that's not true.

You've got to be really very left-wing to think that in a country where 40% of its economy is the public sector that it's some kind of free-for-all dog-eat-dog "the free market is sacrosanct". That's the problem with you, AndrewJB. Your basic premise and the things that you portray as givens when they're really not - because they're judgements not facts - is so far left that it's impossible to find common ground with you. You're generally reasonable about your pronouncements - but that doesn't make the place they come from any less to the margins of UK politics.

Homelessness and poverty aren't "sacrifices worth making" and I don't think (I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong) that any mainstream politician in this country has said so. They're just facts of life and ones which we put significant (not enough for you obviously but significant) effort into mitigating.

[thatdberight]

I pretended I was a Tory and infiltrated the pay / firewall.

I feel dirty but I did it for the greater good.

You'll have been disappointed. I cancelled my subscription about a year ago as it was too left-wing for my tastes.

[thatdberight]

This has been explained before. You cannot sell the NHS because it has no commercial value. The NHS is an organisation that has no commercial income, all it has is the duty to treat British people and most British residents for all their ailments, free of charge. No-one would buy that.

Now, if you are saying that Americans would be involved in providing that healthcare, that's a different issue. They very likely will. You may say that only British people should be involved in providing NHS healthcare; but as Boris specifically thanked a New Zealander and a Portuguese for his treatment, we would have to assume that he doesn't share those views.

I do think that just one (in my view) unfortunate after-effect of what we have now is that the only politically acceptable healthcare solution in the UK for a generation will be the NHS. Not that I think it's necessarily the best healthcare outcome but a government can only do what a population will allow it to do.

[dsr]

It's not a clear change between this government and the one for the previous ten years. Most of the sitting Tory MPs voted for that austerity, including Johnson himself. The clip of them cheering after voting down a payrise for nurses is all over the internet.

They haven't handled this crisis very well, in my opinion, for reasons I've outlined already. I think once the facts become known, they'll feature in Labour (and other parties) literature more than they will in Tory pamphlets.

On the economy they've just spent huge sums of money trying to keep everything running. It's not going to work, because they've left everybody's financial obligations in place. Somebody I spoke to at work on Friday described how a friend began a travel agency in January. He's got a lease on a property, and no means of paying for it. He's going to lose his shirt now. That, and all the other business failures we'll see over the year are all because the government has not legislated to pause the economy. Even though there's an unprecedented crisis facing the country, they're still acting in the interests of big money, rather than the majority of people.

...

How do you reconcile your complaints about nurses not getting paid enough, with your idea (oft repeated but only outlined in this post) that everyone should get paid an emergency amount for essentials and no more? Which would surely mean that nurses working 12 hour shifts get paid no more than the people who are not working at all?

[Devils_Advocate]

I think part of the problem with trying to transition the NHS into something more like the German or Dutch model is what we have to lose if we get it wrong

The danger is if the current Tory govt managed to be in charge of a country that wasn't as precious and aggressively defensive of the health system we have now then their is every chance they will be given the freedom and political will to move it more towards a US model than an alternative European successful model

The fact the the successful European models have govt / socialist style control and the current political view towards Europe then this makes it even more likely it will move towards a more US style system that benefits the rich over the needy

Im all for improving our health system but this populist right wing eurosceptic political climate is not the setting I want to take the risk to give up the good we already own

[AndrewJB]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... a-21889286

This is on the Mirror site.

[AndrewJB]

How do you reconcile your complaints about nurses not getting paid enough, with your idea (oft repeated but only outlined in this post) that everyone should get paid an emergency amount for essentials and no more? Which would surely mean that nurses working 12 hour shifts get paid no more than the people who are not working at all?

UBI for people out of work. Or for everyone, and then taxed back from higher earners. If the economy is frozen then those nurses who rent will save on that while still earning. Nurses, and firefighters, and police and government ministers still working would still get paid, no?