Wheres Boris...

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Paul Waine
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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:29 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:57 pm
Glad you've not run out of razor blades, but it remains that Sunak "magicked" £200 Billion from that fabled tree. Personally I think that's better than borrowing it. What's your opinion on him doing that?
Hi Andrew, description of quantitative easing - from Bank of England's website: www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy ... ive-easing

Quantitative easing is a tool that central banks, like us, can use to inject money directly into the economy.

Money is either physical, like banknotes, or digital, like the money in your bank account. Quantitative easing involves us creating digital money. We then use it to buy things like government debt in the form of bonds. You may also hear it called ‘QE’ or ‘asset purchase’ – these are the same thing.

The aim of QE is simple: by creating this ‘new’ money, we aim to boost spending and investment in the economy.

Why do we need quantitative easing?

We are tasked with keeping inflation – rises in the prices of goods and services – low and stable.

The normal way we meet our inflation target is by changing Bank Rate, a key interest rate in the economy.

When the global recession took hold in late 2008, we quickly lowered Bank Rate from 5% to 0.5% to support the UK’s economic recovery. Lower interest rates mean it’s cheaper for households and businesses to borrow money – which encourages them to spend and invest, whether that’s a family buying a new car or a company wanting to build a new factory.

But there's a limit to how low interest rates can go. So when we needed to act to boost the economy, we turned to another method of doing so: we introduced quantitative easing.

How does quantitative easing work?

Large-scale purchases of government bonds lower the interest rates or ‘yields’ on those bonds (the investopedia website explains more about bond yields). This pushes down on the interest rates offered on loans (eg mortgages or business loans) because rates on government bonds tend to affect other interest rates in the economy.

So QE works by making it cheaper for households and businesses to borrow money – encouraging spending.

In addition, QE can stimulate the economy by boosting a wide range of financial asset prices.

Suppose we buy £1 million of government bonds from a pension fund. In place of the bonds, the pension fund now has £1 million in money. Rather than hold on to this money, it might invest it in financial assets, such as shares, that give it a higher return. And when demand for financial assets is high, with more people wanting to buy them, the value of these assets increases. This makes businesses and households holding shares wealthier – making them more likely to spend more, boosting economic activity.

*********************

I guess you've read that QE creates "new money." but, I always had you down as someone who didn't like "billionaires becoming wealthier." That's what QE does - and not just "financial asset prices" - QE also raises house prices, so a transfer to those who are "long" residential property and against those who are "short" residential property - though the "bank of Mum and Dad" can offset this effect across the generations within the same family.

So, even though I'm on the "long" side (see what I did there) re residential property, as you'd expect for someone who has just retired, I do have a feeling for the population as a whole that QE is not a bountiful gift to us all as a society.

Have a great day. Stay safe.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by thatdberight » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:47 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:29 pm
No idea what that means but whatever you say.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by thatdberight » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:51 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:23 pm
Does this include the poster, a right-wing bloke, running at least two accounts with one of them posing as female ?
If that's true (and I see no evidence it is) then he's much much cleverer (or genuinely suffering from a personality disorder) than his primary ID suggests. Just because it gets repeated doesn't make it true.

Equally, there's nothing to suggest that taffy-on-the-wing is the late, unlamented by me, South West Claret. Again, South West Claret would have had to have been a whole lot cleverer than he repeatedly came across to be the new poster.
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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by tiger76 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:09 pm

Boris Johnson has told colleagues his concerns that relaxing lockdown measures too soon could lead to a second outbreak of coronavirus.

The PM is understood to have met his deputy Dominic Raab at Chequers on Friday to discuss the crisis.

He is thought to have told Mr Raab and other officials via video that stopping a second peak was his priority.

It comes after criticism Mr Johnson did not chair or attend five early meetings about the virus.

Cabinet Office Minister Michael Gove confirmed on Sunday that the PM had not been involved in the government's emergency Cobra meetings - as reported in the Sunday Times.

Shadow health secretary Jonathan Ashworth accused Mr Johnson of being "missing in action" at the start of the crisis.

But a government spokesman said it was "entirely normal and proper" for Cobra to be chaired by the relevant secretary of state rather than the prime minister.

They added Boris Johnson "has been at the helm of the response to this, providing leadership during this hugely challenging period for the whole nation".

Culture Secretary Oliver Dowden also defended his boss, saying the PM was "being briefed on an hourly and daily basis" and "took a very close personal interest" in the virus early on.

Constructive' meetings
The PM is currently staying at Chequers - the country retreat of the prime minister - while he recovers from coronavirus, and is not officially back at work yet.

But his official spokesman said Mr Johnson was receiving daily written updates on the government's response to the crisis.

He also confirmed the prime minister had met some of his team from No 10 at Chequers.

Mr Raab - who is deputising for the prime minister during his recuperation - held another virtual meeting with leaders of the opposition parties to update them on the government's handling of the outbreak.

A spokesman for Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer said the meeting had been "constructive" and he "reiterated his support for the government's decision to extend the lockdown".

But he said Sir Keir repeated calls for more detail on the exit strategy for ending the measures and "raised his concerns" about the availability of PPE.

Plaid Cymru Westminster Leader Liz Saville Roberts said all four UK governments must agree "how and when" the lockdown is lifted.

Speaking after the meeting, she said, "If the lockdown is lifted in one nation or region because it has passed the 'peak' not only will we see confusion, but the potential movement of people around the UK which in turn could lead to greater infection rates and more importantly unnecessary pressures on local healthcare services."

Government sources said the review of lockdown measures in three weeks would lead to modifications, rather than any widespread easing.

BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith said the fear in government about another outbreak is not solely of more deaths, but also the impact it would have on the economy if employees are sick and unable to work.

He also said the belief is the additional impact on businesses who were forced to remain shut in a second lockdown would be more profound.

The prime minister's spokesman said a second peak in the outbreak would "ultimately do the most damage to health and the biggest damage to the economy".

And he warned that if lockdown measures were changed too quickly, it could risk the virus "spreading exponentially again".

'Facts and evidence'
Mr Dowden said the government would take appropriate measures to ease the lockdown "based on the evidence".

But he referenced Mr Johnson's earlier statement that it could take 12 weeks to "turn the tide" on the virus.

Mr Dowden told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "What's happened is kind of consistent with that.

"But we will take the appropriate measures based on the facts and evidence, and that has not changed."

Ideally the lockdown will be lifted by all 4 nations simultaneously,otherwise the danger of people travelling around the different nations is a real problem,thus far it's been a 4-nation approach,and that seems to be working,if any divergence happens that could create tensions,it doesn't appear the lockdown is going to be easing in the near future anyway.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Elizabeth » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:25 pm

Thanks thatdbe ,it's the only weapon he's got to use against me
Last edited by Elizabeth on Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by IanMcL » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:26 pm

It is all too late. They failed miserably and cost lives, unnecessarily.

War criminals!

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by thatdberight » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:27 pm

IanMcL wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:26 pm
It is all too late. They failed miserably and cost lives, unnecessarily.

War criminals!
Unhinged.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by jrgbfc » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:38 pm

Sounds like the Tories are trying to prepare us for another extension of the lockdown.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by aggi » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:35 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:50 pm
Hi Andrew, how does that work? Minister in charge chairs the cobra meeting, What would her/his boss being there as well add to it, a better meeting? or confusion and lack of clarity?

I'd find out who the "ex official" is who's claiming that Blair and Brown (and I assume, when each was PM, in turn) also attended when they weren't chairing the meeting. Can you imagine either of them attending and not being the chair?
The most senior person in the room chairing the meeting is a pretty old-fashioned concept, it's been a fair time since I've been anywhere where that was how meetings were run.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Woodleyclaret » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:24 pm

Who's Boris
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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by tiger76 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:29 pm

IanMcL wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:26 pm
It is all too late. They failed miserably and cost lives, unnecessarily.

War criminals!
If your referring to Tony Blair and Jack Straw then yes i'd agree.
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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Hapag Lloyd » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:30 pm

IanMcL wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:26 pm
It is all too late. They failed miserably and cost lives, unnecessarily.

War criminals!

Have a day off.
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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by evensteadiereddie » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:03 pm

Elizabeth wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Thanks thatdbe ,it's the only weapon he's got to use against me

Fnar, fnar...

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:25 pm

aggi wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:35 pm
The most senior person in the room chairing the meeting is a pretty old-fashioned concept, it's been a fair time since I've been anywhere where that was how meetings were run.
Can you tell me more, aggi?

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by IanMcL » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:33 pm

PM Johnson will only appear again, to make a giant step forward announcement. Then he will disappear again. That's the policy of Cummings.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by TheFamilyCat » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:42 pm

jrgbfc wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:38 pm
Sounds like the Tories are trying to prepare us for another extension of the lockdown.
My thought was that Boris had just gone ultra-cautious due to the flak that is currently flying around.

Further extensions to the lockdown would be hard to accept for a lot of people if the trend of the last two days' deaths continued.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by TVC15 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:51 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:25 pm
Can you tell me more, aggi?
I think what he is saying Paul is that the idea that the most senior person chairs the meeting is a bit 1970s / Reginald Perrin !!

I completely agree - I have chaired many committees and forums where I was not a director and the CEO or other directors were regular members of the forum. Infact it became increasingly rare for the most senior member of the group or committee to be the chair. But they did attend and obviously by the nature of their role they had a big influence.

Personally I cannot see why Boris did not attend 5 Cobra meetings during this period. It may have not been declared a pandemic at this stage but it’s hard to argue that it was not a very serious issue for the government and the potential for it to be a pandemic was very much on the cards. What could have been possibly more important for Boris on 5 different occasions ?

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by thatdberight » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:53 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:42 pm
My thought was that Boris had just gone ultra-cautious due to the flak that is currently flying around.

Further extensions to the lockdown would be hard to accept for a lot of people if the trend of the last two days' deaths continued.
I really think they'll struggle to do that. I don't think 50% of the population will want it.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:40 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:51 pm
I think what he is saying Paul is that the idea that the most senior person chairs the meeting is a bit 1970s / Reginald Perrin !!

I completely agree - I have chaired many committees and forums where I was not a director and the CEO or other directors were regular members of the forum. Infact it became increasingly rare for the most senior member of the group or committee to be the chair. But they did attend and obviously by the nature of their role they had a big influence.

Personally I cannot see why Boris did not attend 5 Cobra meetings during this period. It may have not been declared a pandemic at this stage but it’s hard to argue that it was not a very serious issue for the government and the potential for it to be a pandemic was very much on the cards. What could have been possibly more important for Boris on 5 different occasions ?
I'm intrigued, TVC15, what area were you involved in?

With the big, big, benefit of 20:20 hindsight, we can all see that covid-19 would become a "big issue." But, was anyone, anywhere in the world, saying that back on 24-Jan?

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by TVC15 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:43 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:40 pm
I'm intrigued, TVC15, what area were you involved in?

With the big, big, benefit of 20:20 hindsight, we can all see that covid-19 would become a "big issue." But, was anyone, anywhere in the world, saying that back on 24-Jan?
Banking - corporate and retail. Worked in the head office for most of my career to and especially in the last 10 or 15 years it was nothing but forums, committees etc. It’s the way the PRA changed banks after 2008/9 crisis that all banks had to evidence they worked in certain ways and you had oversight forums and groups for lots of areas - risk, planning, governance, investment spend, customer forums, pricing committee etc etc
For example I chaired the banks investment committee which basically governed and decided on all project spend / investment over half a million. That committee had the CEO on it and directors from all round the business.
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TVC15
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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by TVC15 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:02 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:40 pm

With the big, big, benefit of 20:20 hindsight, we can all see that covid-19 would become a "big issue." But, was anyone, anywhere in the world, saying that back on 24-Jan?
But he missed 5 meetings didn’t he ?
It seems strange that a new PM would miss what is clearly one of the key committees when they are discussing something like this - which you would think is a pretty rare discussion point.
I’m not really saying with hindsight as like you say 3 months ago nobody realised the extent of this. It’s more in the context of if you are having meetings to discuss the potential for something like this to impact the UK and looking at a whole range of scenarios from say very little impact to pandemic then it seems strange that the PM would not be in these meetings.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:28 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:50 pm
Just looking at that, and some of it is misleading. It says it’s entirely normal for the cabinet minister responsible for the subject the meeting is about normally chairs the meeting. It gives examples of Labour cabinet members who chaired meetings. This could lead the reader into believing Blair or Brown weren’t there, however an ex official has claimed that Blair and Brown didn’t miss a single one. The issue isn’t whether or not Johnson CHAIRED the meetings, but if he was actually there.
Blair missed Cobra meetings though.
He wasn't chairing Cobra when 9/11 was happening.
He didn't chair Cobra during the foot and mouth pandemic.

The PM isn't required to attend and/or chair every cobra meeting.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:37 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:02 pm
But he missed 5 meetings didn’t he ?
It seems strange that a new PM would miss what is clearly one of the key committees when they are discussing something like this - which you would think is a pretty rare discussion point.
I’m not really saying with hindsight as like you say 3 months ago nobody realised the extent of this. It’s more in the context of if you are having meetings to discuss the potential for something like this to impact the UK and looking at a whole range of scenarios from say very little impact to pandemic then it seems strange that the PM would not be in these meetings.
Do we know the dates of all the cobra meetings BJ didn't attend? The last week of Jan was "getting Brexit done." Memory (I've not googled) says that "Brexit law" was approved by Parliament plus royal accent all leading up to 31-Jan. I'm guessing there was some discussion re "next steps" in the future trade relationship(s) with the EU also on the agenda, maybe also some stuff about trade agreements with other non-EU states. Then, there were floods around this time. On top of this, BJ had campaigned and won the Dec-19 GE - and, in his private life I think he was sorting his divorce etc. etc. At the time, I can see it appeared that there were a number of "bigger" things going on for BJ and the whole country. As I say, with hindsight, it all looks so different.

I appreciate all your committees and forum stuff. Thanks for that detail. Yes, I've chaired/led work meetings, but I wouldn't expect the PM to attend a cobra meeting unless the PM was chairing it. Reason being is that cobra involves a lot more than members of the cabinet/members of the gov't. Once you bring in these "outsiders" with their specific roles, you'd also need clarity that "the chair" is the leader of the meeting. The last thing anyone would want would be to call a cobra meeting and then create confusion about the governance of the meeting.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by TVC15 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:09 pm

Truth is neither of us have a clue what happened !
All I am saying is that you don’t need to chair a meeting to be seen as a leader. He already is the leader and everyone round the table would know that.

To me it still seems strange he missed that many meetings. And I am not saying this with hindsight.
You have a different opinion. That’s absolutely fine.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:35 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:09 pm
Boris Johnson has told colleagues his concerns that relaxing lockdown measures too soon could lead to a second outbreak of coronavirus.

The PM is understood to have met his deputy Dominic Raab at Chequers on Friday to discuss the crisis.

He is thought to have told Mr Raab and other officials via video that stopping a second peak was his priority.

It comes after criticism Mr Johnson did not chair or attend five early meetings about the virus.

Cabinet Office Minister Michael Gove confirmed on Sunday that the PM had not been involved in the government's emergency Cobra meetings - as reported in the Sunday Times.

Shadow health secretary Jonathan Ashworth accused Mr Johnson of being "missing in action" at the start of the crisis.

But a government spokesman said it was "entirely normal and proper" for Cobra to be chaired by the relevant secretary of state rather than the prime minister.

They added Boris Johnson "has been at the helm of the response to this, providing leadership during this hugely challenging period for the whole nation".

Culture Secretary Oliver Dowden also defended his boss, saying the PM was "being briefed on an hourly and daily basis" and "took a very close personal interest" in the virus early on.

Constructive' meetings
The PM is currently staying at Chequers - the country retreat of the prime minister - while he recovers from coronavirus, and is not officially back at work yet.

But his official spokesman said Mr Johnson was receiving daily written updates on the government's response to the crisis.

He also confirmed the prime minister had met some of his team from No 10 at Chequers.

Mr Raab - who is deputising for the prime minister during his recuperation - held another virtual meeting with leaders of the opposition parties to update them on the government's handling of the outbreak.

A spokesman for Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer said the meeting had been "constructive" and he "reiterated his support for the government's decision to extend the lockdown".

But he said Sir Keir repeated calls for more detail on the exit strategy for ending the measures and "raised his concerns" about the availability of PPE.

Plaid Cymru Westminster Leader Liz Saville Roberts said all four UK governments must agree "how and when" the lockdown is lifted.

Speaking after the meeting, she said, "If the lockdown is lifted in one nation or region because it has passed the 'peak' not only will we see confusion, but the potential movement of people around the UK which in turn could lead to greater infection rates and more importantly unnecessary pressures on local healthcare services."

Government sources said the review of lockdown measures in three weeks would lead to modifications, rather than any widespread easing.

BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith said the fear in government about another outbreak is not solely of more deaths, but also the impact it would have on the economy if employees are sick and unable to work.

He also said the belief is the additional impact on businesses who were forced to remain shut in a second lockdown would be more profound.

The prime minister's spokesman said a second peak in the outbreak would "ultimately do the most damage to health and the biggest damage to the economy".

And he warned that if lockdown measures were changed too quickly, it could risk the virus "spreading exponentially again".

'Facts and evidence'
Mr Dowden said the government would take appropriate measures to ease the lockdown "based on the evidence".

But he referenced Mr Johnson's earlier statement that it could take 12 weeks to "turn the tide" on the virus.

Mr Dowden told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "What's happened is kind of consistent with that.

"But we will take the appropriate measures based on the facts and evidence, and that has not changed."

Ideally the lockdown will be lifted by all 4 nations simultaneously,otherwise the danger of people travelling around the different nations is a real problem,thus far it's been a 4-nation approach,and that seems to be working,if any divergence happens that could create tensions,it doesn't appear the lockdown is going to be easing in the near future anyway.
The criticism is that Johnson did not attend those five meetings, and the rebuttal is that that it’s normal for serving PMs not to chair the meetings. How many COBRA meetings did other serving PMs miss?

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by dsr » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:26 am

TVC15 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:02 pm
But he missed 5 meetings didn’t he ?
It seems strange that a new PM would miss what is clearly one of the key committees when they are discussing something like this - which you would think is a pretty rare discussion point.
I’m not really saying with hindsight as like you say 3 months ago nobody realised the extent of this. It’s more in the context of if you are having meetings to discuss the potential for something like this to impact the UK and looking at a whole range of scenarios from say very little impact to pandemic then it seems strange that the PM would not be in these meetings.
The press did spend a lot of time criticising him for not running to the sites of floods. So when he got to the floods, why weren't they putting up headlines then criticising him for not attending Cobra meetings?

I would be interested to see the contemporary press reports of these Cobra meetings - presumably the criticism of the PM was no less at the time than it is now? Or is the press using hindsight as well?

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:03 am

dsr wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:26 am
The press did spend a lot of time criticising him for not running to the sites of floods. So when he got to the floods, why weren't they putting up headlines then criticising him for not attending Cobra meetings?

I would be interested to see the contemporary press reports of these Cobra meetings - presumably the criticism of the PM was no less at the time than it is now? Or is the press using hindsight as well?
Your question has to do with; "did the press do their duty in terms of reporting these COBRA meetings (and Johnson's attendance)?"

As I understand the facts, Johnson didn't attend five COBRA meetings, and whether or not the press reported this doesn't matter. How does this stack up against previous prime minister's attendances at COBRA meetings? That's the real question. If it's usual (or always) for a PM to attend a COBRA meeting, then Johnson hasn't been doing his job. Unfortunately, his shirking also coincides with an unprecedented crisis for the country. Sadly, it's the people on the front line, whose pay rise refusal he voted for, and whose protection he couldn't provide on time that are dying while doing their jobs saving the country.
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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Taffy on the wing » Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:03 am

taio wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:11 pm
I had assumed he is the person who used to post under the username South West Claret who was banned from this messageboard and most often didn't add anything meaningful to a debate - just flippant one line responses.
I've added lots of articles on these threads!.......What about you?

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Taffy on the wing » Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:07 am

thatdberight wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:47 pm
No idea what that means but whatever you say.
I think it means your money just got diluted!

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Leisure » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:23 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:35 pm
The criticism is that Johnson did not attend those five meetings, and the rebuttal is that that it’s normal for serving PMs not to chair the meetings. How many COBRA meetings did other serving PMs miss?
My reading of this (which may or may not be correct) is that whilst previous PM's didn't chair Cobra meetings (this was done by the appropriate minister depending on the topic under discussion), PM's were in attendance.
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aggi
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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by aggi » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:59 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:25 pm
Can you tell me more, aggi?
As others have said, the idea of the autocratic boss who must chair every meeting isn't that common in modern companies. General meetings may be chaired by the most senior person in the room but meetings on a specific topic or business area are usually chaired by the person with the expertise of that area. The boss may still be in the meeting as it is business relevant but they're not running it.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by aggi » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:00 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:28 pm
Blair missed Cobra meetings though.
He wasn't chairing Cobra when 9/11 was happening.
He didn't chair Cobra during the foot and mouth pandemic.

The PM isn't required to attend and/or chair every cobra meeting.
Did he not attend or not chair it? They are two different things so what you're currently writing isn't that relevant.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by thatdberight » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:09 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:07 am
I think it means your money just got diluted!
You don't make any sense. Apart from, hopefully, to yourself.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:29 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:28 pm
Blair missed Cobra meetings though.
He wasn't chairing Cobra when 9/11 was happening.
He didn't chair Cobra during the foot and mouth pandemic.

The PM isn't required to attend and/or chair every cobra meeting.
According to this article Blair didn't miss a single meeting, and nor did Brown: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ ... de-2543031

If we are going to have an honest discussion we should admit that "not chairing" a meeting is not the same as "not attending."

It's a strange coincidence that so many posters are taking the same muddying line about not chairing / not attending. It's almost as though you read the same newspapers.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:31 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:29 pm
According to this article Blair didn't miss a single meeting, and nor did Brown: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ ... de-2543031

If we are going to have an honest discussion we should admit that "not chairing" a meeting is not the same as "not attending."

It's a strange coincidence that so many posters are taking the same muddying line about not chairing / not attending. It's almost as though you read the same newspapers.
Screenshot_20200419-000541_Samsung Internet.jpg
Screenshot_20200419-000541_Samsung Internet.jpg (302.01 KiB) Viewed 3040 times

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:36 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:29 pm
Hi Andrew, description of quantitative easing - from Bank of England's website: www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy ... ive-easing

Quantitative easing is a tool that central banks, like us, can use to inject money directly into the economy.

Money is either physical, like banknotes, or digital, like the money in your bank account. Quantitative easing involves us creating digital money. We then use it to buy things like government debt in the form of bonds. You may also hear it called ‘QE’ or ‘asset purchase’ – these are the same thing.

The aim of QE is simple: by creating this ‘new’ money, we aim to boost spending and investment in the economy.

Why do we need quantitative easing?

We are tasked with keeping inflation – rises in the prices of goods and services – low and stable.

The normal way we meet our inflation target is by changing Bank Rate, a key interest rate in the economy.

When the global recession took hold in late 2008, we quickly lowered Bank Rate from 5% to 0.5% to support the UK’s economic recovery. Lower interest rates mean it’s cheaper for households and businesses to borrow money – which encourages them to spend and invest, whether that’s a family buying a new car or a company wanting to build a new factory.

But there's a limit to how low interest rates can go. So when we needed to act to boost the economy, we turned to another method of doing so: we introduced quantitative easing.

How does quantitative easing work?

Large-scale purchases of government bonds lower the interest rates or ‘yields’ on those bonds (the investopedia website explains more about bond yields). This pushes down on the interest rates offered on loans (eg mortgages or business loans) because rates on government bonds tend to affect other interest rates in the economy.

So QE works by making it cheaper for households and businesses to borrow money – encouraging spending.

In addition, QE can stimulate the economy by boosting a wide range of financial asset prices.

Suppose we buy £1 million of government bonds from a pension fund. In place of the bonds, the pension fund now has £1 million in money. Rather than hold on to this money, it might invest it in financial assets, such as shares, that give it a higher return. And when demand for financial assets is high, with more people wanting to buy them, the value of these assets increases. This makes businesses and households holding shares wealthier – making them more likely to spend more, boosting economic activity.

*********************

I guess you've read that QE creates "new money." but, I always had you down as someone who didn't like "billionaires becoming wealthier." That's what QE does - and not just "financial asset prices" - QE also raises house prices, so a transfer to those who are "long" residential property and against those who are "short" residential property - though the "bank of Mum and Dad" can offset this effect across the generations within the same family.

So, even though I'm on the "long" side (see what I did there) re residential property, as you'd expect for someone who has just retired, I do have a feeling for the population as a whole that QE is not a bountiful gift to us all as a society.

Have a great day. Stay safe.
I think you'd said before that money "cannot be created out of thin air" - and yet quantitative easing is exactly that. Where I'd differ with the BoE is in how the money is distributed. If the money created is used to pay a UBI, then it will keep people fed and warmed, and those working in food shops paid.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by aggi » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:49 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:31 pm
Screenshot_20200419-000541_Samsung Internet.jpg
That reads as if it was literally until they were able to get there. A meeting being called out of the blue is somewhat different to five scheduled meetings.

Personally I don't believe that Johnson would have needed to be at all of those meetings but I'm surprised that he missed 5 in a row (admittedly not that surprised given that it tallies with people's accounts of him as London mayor).

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by keith1879 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:08 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:40 pm
I'm intrigued, TVC15, what area were you involved in?

With the big, big, benefit of 20:20 hindsight, we can all see that covid-19 would become a "big issue." But, was anyone, anywhere in the world, saying that back on 24-Jan?
Based on this news report I would say that the simple answer is (was) "Yes". I hope that doesn't seem like point scoring ....it is just factual.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEr3sHAKdVg

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:13 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:49 pm
That reads as if it was literally until they were able to get there. A meeting being called out of the blue is somewhat different to five scheduled meetings.

Personally I don't believe that Johnson would have needed to be at all of those meetings but I'm surprised that he missed 5 in a row (admittedly not that surprised given that it tallies with people's accounts of him as London mayor).
Just highlighting that Cobra doesn't need a PM to be present to operate, a cabinet minister is usually present though.

There was the former gov scientific advisor on the radio a while ago and he was saying during the first foot and mouth pandemic Cobra met every single day and the PM, Blair, wasn't always present.
The reason being the PM didn't always need to be present.

Boris missing 5 is probably being distorted by the media and their agenda to oust him.
I'd wager he's missed a lot more and it's been explained in detail a lot by others.

During the flood problem he didnt attend them all, same when the outbreak started initially and started spreading.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Lord Beamish » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:18 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:13 pm

During the flood problem he didnt attend them all, same when the outbreak started initially and started spreading.
I guess he was out visiting the areas hit by the floods.
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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by TVC15 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:23 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:13 pm
Just highlighting that Cobra doesn't need a PM to be present to operate, a cabinet minister is usually present though.

There was the former gov scientific advisor on the radio a while ago and he was saying during the first foot and mouth pandemic Cobra met every single day and the PM, Blair, wasn't always present.
The reason being the PM didn't always need to be present.

Boris missing 5 is probably being distorted by the media and their agenda to oust him.
I'd wager he's missed a lot more and it's been explained in detail a lot by others.

During the flood problem he didnt attend them all, same when the outbreak started initially and started spreading.
I’m sure I saw the ex chief medical officer on the TV this morning saying that during his period / during foot and mouth that Blair and Brown attended all the Cobra meetings. Didn’t he also mention about them not needing to chair the meeting ?
He also said that it was his role to face the media and he was given full responsibility and the PMs at the time did not need to attend these. Makes you think whether it’s really necessary for Johnson, Raab, Hancock etc needed to be there ? Though I do think the chancellor has been on the whole pretty good and it feels like it’s better for him to be relaying the economic impact and measures etc.

I accept though that you are damned if you do and damned that you don’t with this kind of thing.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by aggi » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:30 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:13 pm
Just highlighting that Cobra doesn't need a PM to be present to operate, a cabinet minister is usually present though.

There was the former gov scientific advisor on the radio a while ago and he was saying during the first foot and mouth pandemic Cobra met every single day and the PM, Blair, wasn't always present.
The reason being the PM didn't always need to be present.

Boris missing 5 is probably being distorted by the media and their agenda to oust him.
I'd wager he's missed a lot more and it's been explained in detail a lot by others.

During the flood problem he didnt attend them all, same when the outbreak started initially and started spreading.
I don't think anyone is suggesting it does need a PM to be present to operate. It's just a surprise that something that a lot of people had foreseen to be a big issue took so long to have the PM to attend meetings.

I would agree it's been blown up to an extent by the media but Johnson usually gets a lot of latitude so it may be more a matter of things returning to normal. It's not as if Johnson being a bit lazy is a new thing but previously it was excused.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by keith1879 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:48 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:18 pm
I guess he was out visiting the areas hit by the floods.
There were Cobra meetings on January 29, February 5 and February 12 and he was in Parliament at some point each of those days taking PMQs.
There was a Cobra meeting on February 18 when he was at Chequers (and being publically criticised for not visiting the flooded areas).

Can't see when the 5th meeting was.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:15 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:59 am
As others have said, the idea of the autocratic boss who must chair every meeting isn't that common in modern companies. General meetings may be chaired by the most senior person in the room but meetings on a specific topic or business area are usually chaired by the person with the expertise of that area. The boss may still be in the meeting as it is business relevant but they're not running it.
So, "meetings on a specific topic..are usually chaired by the person with the expertise of that area." So, no problem with the PM not attending those meetings..., or put it differently, not helpful for the PM to be spending his time in those meetings when there are also other things that need doing.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:18 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:36 pm
I think you'd said before that money "cannot be created out of thin air" - and yet quantitative easing is exactly that. Where I'd differ with the BoE is in how the money is distributed. If the money created is used to pay a UBI, then it will keep people fed and warmed, and those working in food shops paid.
?????? but, then it's not "quantitative easing" it's just devaluing the currency and fuelling inflation - and that doesn't lead to a good outcome for anyone.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:25 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:15 pm
So, "meetings on a specific topic..are usually chaired by the person with the expertise of that area." So, no problem with the PM not attending those meetings..., or put it differently, not helpful for the PM to be spending his time in those meetings when there are also other things that need doing.
No thats not it at all. I work in projects and we have to go through steering groups and governance boards at all the key stages. The Sponsor who will be the most senior person is almost always present but never chairs the meeting.

The meetings are usually chaired by the most senior person who has enough subject knowledge which allows the most Sponsor to take on board all the info and discussions so they can interject to challenge and ask question where appropriate

Ultimately the decision lies with them so it is key for them to be there and play a vital role even though they dont lead.

No idea how this works at govt level but as others have said you will find it very rare at large successful modern businesses for key meetings to be chaired and led by the most senior person
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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:27 pm

keith1879 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:08 pm
Based on this news report I would say that the simple answer is (was) "Yes". I hope that doesn't seem like point scoring ....it is just factual.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEr3sHAKdVg
I thought we all had the opinion that the "red tops" weren't worth reading. ;)

Yes, 6 or 7 cases of suspected covid-19 in the UK (was it already named covid-19 in Jan?). So, were we all saying "get the lockdown going now?"

Hillingdon hospital was mentioned as suspected 7th (?) covid-19 case. I've heard of someone who works at Hillingdon Hospital (not frontline). I understand he's been tested twice and both times test showed negative for covid-19. That's just a little side story.

Thanks, Keith, good to see something that is maybe arguing that "red tops" got this one right.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by TVC15 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:28 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:15 pm
So, "meetings on a specific topic..are usually chaired by the person with the expertise of that area." So, no problem with the PM not attending those meetings..., or put it differently, not helpful for the PM to be spending his time in those meetings when there are also other things that need doing.
That’s not what he is saying - or how it necessarily works either. The expert / chair of the meeting could be there more in a capacity to give his detailed technical view and answer questions from the other members. His expertise would allow him to set the right agenda and cover the key areas. That does not mean he has the authority to make decisions - especially any key ones that are going to have far reaching impact.

On something like this how could that meeting make any big decisions on Covid without the PM ?....which might well go some way to explaining why they didn’t.

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Re: Wheres Boris...

Post by TVC15 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:32 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:25 pm
No thats not it at all. I work in projects and we have to go through steering groups and governance boards at all the key stages. The Sponsor who will be the most senior person is almost always present but never chairs the meeting.

The meetings are usually chaired by the most senior person who has enough subject knowledge which allows the most Sponsor to take on board all the info and discussions so they can interject to challenge and ask question where appropriate

Ultimately the decision lies with them so it is key for them to be there and play a vital role even though they dont lead.

No idea how this works at govt level but as others have said you will find it very rare at large successful modern businesses for key meetings to be chaired and led by the most senior person
Exactly this.
I’ve led many programmes of work and also sponsored many projects. The sponsor never chaired the meetings but they were always there - for a sponsor to not attend a steering meeting for example would be extremely rare - to the point you would reschedule it to when he could as you could not make any key decisions without him or her.

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Re: Where's Boris...

Post by IanMcL » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:34 pm

Not time to be brought back, to announce the 'major step forward' ad yet.

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