Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

[RingoMcCartney]

I agree that the EU is far from perfect, and this crisis could be another nail in the coffin. Countries will realise that when it really comes down to it its every man for himself. Anyway I'll leave it at that before the thread goes off on another Brexit tangent!

Yeah fair enough pal.

There's been more than enough of them to be fair.

Keep well and stay safe.

[Rodleydave]

jrgbfc… I haven't seen anywhere that we are wanting the EU to help us out… and desperately relying on them... they can't even help themselves...see Italy Spain and France, and are in complete disarray with even the arch-European the Emperor Macron incandescent at EU uselessness and in-fighting.

[thatdberight]

He's got them bang to rights I'm afraid. They said his tweet was on the 23rd when it was on the 24th.

That could simply be somebody's Twitter account setting (although, yes, obviously UK time it was sent on the 24th)

Screenshot_20200420-054359.jpg (117.2 KiB) Viewed 3767 times

[Rodleydave]

Oh and the French (stalwarts of the EU) early on, impounded two lorryloads of PPE destined for the UK to keep them for themselves... whether they succeeded or not I cannot say.

[claretspice]

Oh and the French (stalwarts of the EU) early on, impounded two lorryloads of PPE destined for the UK to keep them for themselves... whether they succeeded or not I cannot say.

What, you're saying that the French intercepted a load of kit that was contractually committed to be sold to the UK, and forced someone to break their contract?

Evidence? Because that sounds far-fetched.

[thatdberight]

What, you're saying that the French intercepted a load of kit that was contractually committed to be sold to the UK, and forced someone to break their contract?

Evidence? Because that sounds far-fetched.

Sorry to shatter your illusions. Reported here.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/a ... e-pandemic

Of course, I'll leave you to wriggle and say that this doesn't say physical stock was physically intercepted by the French so that's something different altogether.

[IanMcL]

Sounds like something one might read in the Sun.

[thatdberight]

Sounds like something one might read in the Sun.

Or The Guardian as it happens. Which you doubtless regard as the very epitome of journalistic integrity (apart from The Morning Star).
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/a ... e-pandemic

[quoonbeatz]

That could simply be somebody's Twitter account setting (although, yes, obviously UK time it was sent on the 24th)

Screenshot_20200420-054359.jpg

It could indeed be a straw to clutch. Seems an odd thing to have your account set 8 hours behind but I guess someone might have a reason to do so.

Anyway, matters not in the grand scheme of things, just continuing to poke some fun at the lack of objectivity so many of you have.

[thatdberight]

It could indeed be a straw to clutch. Seems an odd thing to have your account set 8 hours behind but I guess someone might have a reason to do so.

Anyway, matters not in the grand scheme of things, just continuing to poke some fun at the lack of objectivity so many of you have.

If your Twitter account is on a different timezone that's how it'll appear. That's how it appears on a UK Google search. I have agreed it was wrong - that was a reason, not an excuse. I wouldn't want to join you in a competition to see who can most lack objectivity.

[Paul Waine]

It could indeed be a straw to clutch. Seems an odd thing to have your account set 8 hours behind but I guess someone might have a reason to do so.

Anyway, matters not in the grand scheme of things, just continuing to poke some fun at the lack of objectivity so many of you have.

Hi qb, I don't use Twitter (at least I haven't done, yet), so I'm puzzled by the exchange re Horton's Twitter time zone. A little google I came up with this:

*************
How to change time zone on Twitter?

To change your Twitter account's time zone setting
Sign in to your account on twitter.com.
Click on your profile icon and select Settings from the drop-down menu.
Click Account, then choose your time zone from the Time zone drop-down menu.
Scroll to the bottom of the page and click Save changes.
You will be prompted to enter your password, click Save Changes to confirm the change.
Reference: help.twitter.com/en/managing-your-account/how-to-change-time-zon…

***************

So, is your point that Horton would set his Twitter account to West Coast America, 8 hours behind UK time? - or he'd never noticed the time zone his account was displaying?

[thatdberight]

Hi qb, I don't use Twitter (at least I haven't done, yet), so I'm puzzled by the exchange re Horton's Twitter time zone. A little google I came up with this:

*************
How to change time zone on Twitter?

To change your Twitter account's time zone setting
Sign in to your account on twitter.com.
Click on your profile icon and select Settings from the drop-down menu.
Click Account, then choose your time zone from the Time zone drop-down menu.
Scroll to the bottom of the page and click Save changes.
You will be prompted to enter your password, click Save Changes to confirm the change.
Reference: help.twitter.com/en/managing-your-account/how-to-change-time-zon…

***************

So, is your point that Horton would set his Twitter account to West Coast America, 8 hours behind UK time? - or he'd never noticed the time zone his account was displaying?

It's my point, Paul and it really was just out of curiosity as to how it had happened. The Tweet is timestamped 24 January 07:18 UK time so there's no reason to think it didn't happen then.

I just found that the UK Google search returns a US timezone and that each person's Twitter account can be set to a timezone.

It was in the nature of a throwaway comment about how it could have happened - not suggesting there was any doubt that it is an error in the government's rebuttal. Of course, to some, there is no chatting idly about such things because in some way it's perceived I'm trying to do down their "Gotcha!" moment.

[wembley94]

What baffles me.we build the nightingale hospital.in six or seven days and nobody thought.about building factories big enough to produce the ppe .for the doctors and nurses

[martin_p]

I’m not sure the date he tweeted it is entirely the point of his, or the government’s point!

[Paul Waine]

I’m not sure the date he tweeted it is entirely the point of his, or the government’s point!

Given ST wrote about 38 days, where day 1 was 24th Jan, I'd suggest that Horton's post on 24th Jan is a "material" point.

[thatdberight]

Given ST wrote about 38 days, where day 1 was 24th Jan, I'd suggest that Horton's post on 24th Jan is a "material" point.

I think we all agree it's important. Whether it was written just before midnight on 23rd or 7a.m. on the 24th isn't important. To argue about the timing is to miss the point he made and to muddy the point he's making now.

[quoonbeatz]

If your Twitter account is on a different timezone that's how it'll appear. That's how it appears on a UK Google search. I have agreed it was wrong - that was a reason, not an excuse. I wouldn't want to join you in a competition to see who can most lack objectivity.

Shame as you'd have the competition sewn up. Don't underestimate yourself.

[quoonbeatz]

I’m not sure the date he tweeted it is entirely the point of his, or the government’s point!

Fully agree Martin, just poking a little subtle fun

I'm not having a go at the government at all btw.

[thatdberight]

Shame as you'd have the competition sewn up. Don't underestimate yourself.

I wish I could be as jaundiced as you.

[quoonbeatz]

So, is your point that Horton would set his Twitter account to West Coast America, 8 hours behind UK time? - or he'd never noticed the time zone his account was displaying?

Hi Paul

Nope, I'm confident Horton tweeted at 7.18am on the 24th but for whatever reason, Google or someone else account is showing it as 11.18 from the night before.

It's largely immaterial, as I say, I wasn't pointing it out to have a go at the government. 8 hours is neither here nor there really.

[quoonbeatz]

I wish I could be as jaundiced as you.

Bless your colourblind eyes.

[arise_sir_charge]

I had a flick through his timeline.

Odd character for someone in his position.

There is a tweet from him mocking Boris' appearance, when it was known he was ill and just a few days before he was admitted to hospital.

Not that it matters just that seemed odd to me for someone who is the editor of a medical journal!

[Rodleydave]

Oh and for those bigging up the EU, both France and Germany imposed PPE export bans.
And remember how Italy was left without a shred of support.

[Barrowboy]

2 old sayings jump out to me regarding this article and our current or indeed any government

1. You're damned if you do or damned if you don't.
2. Hindsight is an exact science.

Sure we've made mistakes and too many lives have already been lost. Covid19 just wasn't on anyone's priority list until it became almost a H G Wells blockbuster. In this film however neither the USA, the cavalry or anyone else will easily come to the rescue but there's plenty of heroes (NHS et al) fighting the battle.
When the war is won then the best thing ( in my opinion, ) we can do, for the sake of those who died and their families, is to find some proper positives and get rid of the nonsense that doesn't matter and make sure that B****** Rovers are kept in their place! UTC

[Devils_Advocate]

Oh and for those bigging up the EU, both France and Germany imposed PPE export bans.
And remember how Italy was left without a shred of support.

Removing the EU angle and just looking at the three countrys you mentioned. Germany have a shortage of PPE so recognised they are not in a position to export PPE. They was ensuring that the needs of their citizens were prioritised ahead of commercial deals outside their country

Apart from PPE Germany have been flying equipment and people into countrys like France and Italy to support and have transformed an airbus into a flying hospital and have been flying back patients with the virus from those countrys into Germany to treat in their own hospitals

This isnt pro or ani either the EU or the UK but try and take the time to know a little about the comments and attacks you decide to make.

[RingoMcCartney]

Removing the EU angle and just looking at the three countrys you mentioned. Germany have a shortage of PPE so recognised they are not in a position to export PPE. They was ensuring that the needs of their citizens were prioritised ahead of commercial deals outside their country

Apart from PPE Germany have been flying equipment and people into countrys like France and Italy to support and have transformed an airbus into a flying hospital and have been flying back patients with the virus from those countrys into Germany to treat in their own hospitals

This isnt pro or ani either the EU or the UK but try and take the time to know a little about the comments and attacks you decide to make.

Let me get this right.

You've spent the last few weeks sniping at your own government for not having enough PPE. Yet, when someone criticises the EUs response, and each nation being left fend for itself, with Germany and france being particularly self centred. You're now happy to use the fact that even Germany itself had shortages of PPE. As a way of excusing it from acting as, we were assured, the glorious European Union of "equals" would do !

You couldn't make this stuff up!

[Devils_Advocate]

Let me get this right.

You've spent the last few weeks sniping at your own government for not having enough PPE. Yet, when someone criticises the EUs response, and each nation being left fend for itself, with Germany and france being particularly self centred. You're now happy to use the fact that even Germany itself had shortages of PPE. As a way of excusing it from acting as, we were assured, the glorious European Union of "equals" would do !

You couldn't make this stuff up!

Well you just did.

I haven't spent weeks sniping at the govt but ive tried to raise awareness of issues I find important and then discuss properly with other willing people

[cblantfanclub]

As a way of excusing it from acting as, we were assured, the glorious European Union of "equals" would do !

It's never been a Union of equals and has never pretended to be - now you'r e making guff up. I'm not making a judgement on the EU one way or another just keeping to the facts.

[RingoMcCartney]

Well you just did.

I haven't spent weeks sniping at the govt but ive tried to raise awareness of issues I find important and then discuss properly with other willing people

Hold the front page! It's not just our government. But , would you bloody believe it, other governments have been left found wanting by this unprecedented global pandemic! The ruddy Jerries are at it now!!

[Tall Paul]

Oh and for those bigging up the EU, both France and Germany imposed PPE export bans.
And remember how Italy was left without a shred of support.

It's almost as if those countries are acting autonomously and the EU don't have the power to tell them what to do.

Why did we vote to leave again?

[RingoMcCartney]

As a way of excusing it from acting as, we were assured, the glorious European Union of "equals" would do !

It's never been a Union of equals and has never pretended to be - now you'r e making guff up. I'm not making a judgement on the EU one way or another just keeping to the facts.

It must not have come across in the words, but I can assure you, I was being ironic.

It never was, and never will be a union of equals. Just ask those millions of Greeks now living in enforced poverty thanks to the EU, ECB, IMF imposed austerity if they feel as feel as privileged as their German "brothers".

[RingoMcCartney]

It's almost as if those countries are acting autonomously and the EU don't have the power to tell them what to do.

Why did we vote to leave again?

They're having to.

So far, during this crisis, the EU has been as much use a wicker canoe!

[IanMcL]

So far, during this crisis, the EU has been as much use a wicker canoe!

At least they have a canoe!
Our ship sank!

[IanMcL]

2 old sayings jump out to me regarding this article and our current or indeed any government

1. You're damned if you do or damned if you don't.
2. Hindsight is an exact science.

You have just quoted what Government ministers will say, when they wriggle their way away from blame. Mr Hancock will probably be their scapegoat, as he failed to grasp....anything and was holding Cobra meets.

PM Johnson (who should have led Cobra from the outset...that's the job) and Dominic (this strapline will play well....just repeat that throughout) Cummings will have been invisible throughout the process, until there is a major step forward, which will be announced by a smiling PM.

[RingoMcCartney]

At least they have a canoe!
Our ship sank!

We are currently slap bang in the middle of this unprecedented global pandemic. When and only when we have the benefit of the exact science, otherwise known as hindsight. Will we, then, be able to judge, fairly and objectively how our government, NHS, supply lines, procurement agencies, civil service, Her majestys Loyal Opposition, Health England and all stakeholders have performed. And then perhaps following a 2nd , 3rd or 4th wave of this hideous virus can we compare their respective performances to other nations.

Till then its noise and conjecture.

It is all too late. They failed miserably and cost lives, unnecessarily.

War criminals!

Go and have soak in a nice bath Ian. Do you a world of good.

[evensteadiereddie]

I'm sorry but if you saw someone about to put out a fire with petrol, you'd advise them to think again not say, "Well, let's see what happens, now is not the time to question anybody's decision-making.".................

[Grumps]

You have just quoted what Government ministers will say, when they wriggle their way away from blame. Mr Hancock will probably be their scapegoat, as he failed to grasp....anything and was holding Cobra meets.

PM Johnson (who should have led Cobra from the outset...that's the job) and Dominic (this strapline will play well....just repeat that throughout) Cummings will have been invisible throughout the process, until there is a major step forward, which will be announced by a smiling PM.

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, you insist it's the PMs job to have led cobr

[TheFamilyCat]

But we're allowed to judge how WHO, Public Health England and the EU have performed right now.

[thatdberight]

I'm sorry but if you saw someone about to put out a fire with petrol, you'd advise them to think again not say, "Well, let's see what happens, now is not the time to question anybody's decision-making.".................

And if you were in the middle of a fire and somebody suggested we take two people off the fire extinguishers to set up a working party reviewing the fire policy committee meeting notes from the last 30 months, you'd say, "Time and a place."

Both can be right.

[evensteadiereddie]

Absolutely, everybody's accountable except for the govt it appears.

[Barrowboy]

2 old sayings jump out to me regarding this article and our current or indeed any government

1. You're damned if you do or damned if you don't.
2. Hindsight is an exact science.

Sure we've made mistakes and too many lives have already been lost. Covid19 just wasn't on anyone's priority list until it became almost a H G Wells blockbuster. In this film however neither the USA, the cavalry or anyone else will easily come to the rescue but there's plenty of heroes (NHS et al) fighting the battle.
When the war is won then the best thing ( in my opinion, ) we can do, for the sake of those who died and their families, is to find some proper positives and get rid of the nonsense that doesn't matter and make sure that B****** Rovers are kept in their place! UTC

[Taffy on the wing]

Taffy, are you saying you are in USA? Whereabouts? Why were you saying "nothing on BBC?" You do know, that what you see from the BBC in US is not the same as the BBC puts out in UK: BBC online presents different stories, tries to put some US ones in the forefront etc. Similarly, TV programmes (would you prefer "programs") are not identical. Can you access BBC radio while in US? I've never tried when I've been visiting US - which I used to do for several weeks every year.

Good luck with Fox News. Where do you go to for your news sources in US?

Yes, i'm in the US on the West Coast. For news i subscribe to the New York Times and Washington Post, I usually check the BBC UK section for news on that side of the pond...... they do seem rather biased toward the Tories. I don't watch any of the screaming/talking heads on TV anymore as it's just a waste of time.
Stay healthy!

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You have just quoted what Government ministers will say, when they wriggle their way away from blame. Mr Hancock will probably be their scapegoat, as he failed to grasp....anything and was holding Cobra meets.

PM Johnson (who should have led Cobra from the outset...that's the job) and Dominic (this strapline will play well....just repeat that throughout) Cummings will have been invisible throughout the process, until there is a major step forward, which will be announced by a smiling PM.

You don't appear to understand how Cobra functions.

[Paul Waine]

You don't appear to understand how Cobra functions.

I thought it would be interesting to look at what was said about COBR meetings a few weeks ago. (The "A" is only a media "add-on: Cabinet Office Briefing Rooms - sometimes the meetings are held in meeting room A).

Press release
PM to chair COBR meeting on the coronavirus outbreak
Prime Minister Boris Johnson will chair meeting of the government emergency COBR committee.
Published 2 March 2020.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson will today (Monday 2 March) chair a meeting of the government emergency COBR committee on the coronavirus outbreak.

The Committee will discuss, finalise and sign off a battle plan containing a detailed set of countermeasures.

The Prime Minister will tell the meeting, which will be attended by senior ministers as well as Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Advisor:

• The number of coronavirus cases around the world is rising every day - and the UK is no exception.

• There now seems little doubt that it will present a significant challenge for our country.

• But we are well prepared, and the government and the NHS will stop at nothing to fight this virus.

• This battle plan lays out in detail the measures we could use - if and when they are needed.

COBR has been meeting regularly on this issue since January and will be held as often as needed.

As the number of cases in the UK is expected to rise, the action plan will help ensure Government is doing everything it can and can adapt quickly to changing circumstances.

Over the past few days, the Prime Minister has been in regular contact with the Chief Medical Officer and Cabinet Ministers at the heart of monitoring and responding to the virus here in the UK, including the Health Secretary and Foreign Secretary.

The Prime Minister has also been visiting NHS staff who may be on the frontline, such as those in Kettering General Hospital last week, where he saw their new coronavirus pod, a special sterile cabin outside the hospital, where people can come to be checked.

Yesterday, he saw Public Health England’s lab in Colindale, one of a number of labs across the UK where tests are carried out to confirm or rule out coronavirus. He then headed to Royal Free Hospital to meet with staff who are treating patients with the virus.

The PM and Health Secretary thank the NHS staff and healthcare professionals for their tremendous work and dedication in responding to this.

A war room will also be up and running in the Cabinet Office, bringing together communications experts from across government and the NHS to roll out the public information campaign and respond quickly to cross-cutting issues.

[IanMcL]

I'm sorry but if you saw someone about to put out a fire with petrol, you'd advise them to think again not say, "Well, let's see what happens, now is not the time to question anybody's decision-making.".................

Exactly!

No one is perfect. However, you get onto something that is wrong and change it, not compound it as though it is just 'politics as usual'.

That is why the Times article and others that question things, are all essential and the people, whilst maintaining discipline, should signal their disapproval, loudly, when Government proves deficient....who ever is 'in charge'.

[thatdberight]

...whilst maintaining discipline...

A fairly broad definition for you which includes shouting "War Criminals!" it seems...

FWIW I certainly don't disagree with your last point even if I think it's hard to see exactly what's going on.

[IanMcL]

It was PM Johnson who declared war. For subsequent actions, the whole cabinet should be scrutinised, on an ongoing basis.

The immensity of the non action and poorest of decisions, at the outset, which has led to far too many deaths, leads me to conclude as above. Contracts for pals is 'just corruption', by comparison.

[arise_sir_charge]

Your jumping to an awful lot of conclusions Ian without all of the facts......which are a long way from being established.

You’ve form for that though.

As for the fire and petrol analogy, I’m fairly certain it’s scientifically proven that petrol doesn’t out fires out, so it would only be right and proper to intervene if faced with that scenario.

[tiger76]

Philip Pullman doesn't pull any punches in this critique of the government https://inews.co.uk/culture/books/boris ... rsely-api

Personally i don't think such emotive language helps at this time,yes the government have questions to answer,but coming out with outlandish comments totally devalues his argument.

[Quickenthetempo]

It was PM Johnson who declared war. For subsequent actions, the whole cabinet should be scrutinised, on an ongoing basis.

The immensity of the non action and poorest of decisions, at the outset, which has led to far too many deaths, leads me to conclude as above. Contracts for pals is 'just corruption', by comparison.

How many deaths were you expecting?

With the actions the government have taken and all the hype I was expecting 100k or so.