Have you changed your mind?

keith1879 · Post by **keith1879** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:00 am

I wonder if this will provide any insights from anyone. We are all fairly familiar with certain posters on here and learn to expect something of a right wing or left wing slant on their expressed views.

In my case I tend to be somewhat left of centre but this was not always true. I was brought up in a strongly Conservative family and espoused Conservative ideas and views; (mostly reading right wing papers) through my teens and twenties. I was challenged at university but remained firm in my beliefs. Certain family circumstances; experience of different employers in different industrial sectors and reading press stories where I actually knew more of the facts of the subject than the reporter did all combined to shift my views to the point where in the 1992 election for the first time ever I did not vote Conservative but voted Labour (at the age of 38). Since then I have voted mostly (but not always) Labour.

I'm not going into detail about the events that caused my change of mind - you'll have to believe me when I say that it has seemed logical to me (and incidentally seemed to have much the same effect on my wife although no doubt we reinforced each other).

I'm interested to know who else (if anyone) has experienced a change of view of this type - in either direction by the way. I believe that people normally get more right wing as they grow older but I have moved to the left.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:03 am

I've voted both Labour and Tory.

Apparently being a centrist on here is frowned upon, but I like ideas from both sides, so I'll vote accordingly when I do choose to vote which isn't always.

Dinks · Post by **Dinks** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:08 am

Labour for40 odd years...last few..UKIP....Brexit party...then last Election Conservative for the first time in my life.,.....i will never vote Labour again for as long as i live!

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:12 am

Dinks wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:08 am
i will never vote Labour again for as long as i live!

Isn’t that a little counterproductive?

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:30 am

Ive always felt unrepresented by our political system and not engaged with any party. My view was that I believed capitalism was inevitable and good if it was managed in a way to have a good social economic policy to redistribute wealth and not let the wealth gap grow to big

I considered myself just left of centre and still do but feel the political make up has shifted to the right so relatively speaking my views come across as more leftish

I voted for the first time in 2017 because I felt the country had moves so much to the right and that power lay to much in the hands of the rich that a single term of Corbyn would really address the balance of this country

If Corbyn would have got in it would have forced the Torys to have to go after the centre ground more and I think politics works best when both the left and right are more towards the centre and able butt heads over the centrist ground rather than operating at the extremes

In the wake of Trump and Brexit I think we are beyond hope as truth doesnt matter and as long as you tell the lie that is popular and wins the argument a lot of people just support the lie. The we won you lost attitude you see on here sums it up in a nutshell

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:38 am

its all smoke and mirrors, we live in strange times, polarised views become the norm. the other week anyone who didn't fall into line with the boris love in on here was classed as a traitor, a few days down the line we all begin to become a wee bit more cynical. THAT is true herd immunity. its clear bullet points win support however crass.
this is definately a time for seriousness because of the risk to our families and friends. NHS has become crucial, but we all know what previous political parties wanted to do with it. My view hasnt changed, tories are ****, liars and proven cheats. their recent stance on nursing and staffing levels were disgusting. people get scared, and cling to any type of leadership in the midst of panic, but the conservatives are not going to keep fooling the masses for much longer.

Tricky Trevor · Post by **Tricky Trevor** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:40 am

I could never vote tory. A party based on greed. The rich get richer and screw the rest.
I did donate to the breakaway Social Democrats because the party had gone loony left in the early 80s and I have voted lib dem.
I’m a socialist. Help them that CAN’T help themselves not them who don’t want to.
The UK needs a radical overhaul. The stamping, laughing and cheering when they voted down the nurses pay rise needs to be remembered. Especially considering year on year they have voted themselves an above inflation pay rise.
After 10 years what has austerity done for the National debt?

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:53 am

Wile E Coyote wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:38 am
its all smoke and mirrors, we live in strange times, polarised views become the norm. the other week anyone who didn't fall into line with the boris love in on here was classed as a traitor, a few days down the line we all begin to become a wee bit more cynical. THAT is true herd immunity. its clear bullet points win support however crass.
this is definately a time for seriousness because of the risk to our families and friends. NHS has become crucial, but we all know what previous political parties wanted to do with it. My view hasnt changed, tories are ****, liars and proven cheats. their recent stance on nursing and staffing levels were disgusting. people get scared, and cling to any type of leadership in the midst of panic, but the conservatives are not going to keep fooling the masses for much longer.

Surely there's no bigger Liar than Bliar ? My one and only vote. For the record I've always seemed to prosper under a Tory government no idea why tbh.under Labour not so much.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:36 am

tim_noone wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:53 am
Surely there's no bigger Liar than Bliar ? My one and only vote. For the record I've always seemed to prosper under a Tory government no idea why tbh.under Labour not so much.

hopefully, we can move on from personal prosperity , and seek something more worthwhile for the better good of society.
Sounds a bit trite, but if this crisis has taught us anything, then the ability to be inward looking only is a thing o the past.

HunterST_BFC · Post by **HunterST_BFC** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:37 am

Well this thread will split the messageboard.

What's the point?

It will simply escalate into the usual posters "wanging away" at each other. Pointless. Divisive.
Both sides with no chance of accepting the others views / blind beliefs.

Might as well be a thread on Crisp Flavors

Stanbill05 · Post by **Stanbill05** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:15 am

Prawn Cocktail all day long and if anyone thinks different from me they are evil or a loony. There are no merits in any other other flavour, so please don’t bother trying to convince me. Cheese and Onion particularly can’t be trusted, ever. Everything about cheese and onion is terrible.

Bullabill · Post by **Bullabill** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:03 am

Dinks wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:08 am
i will never vote Labour again for as long as i live!
..................................

Have you got a terminal illness Dinks? Never say never.

Grumps · Post by **Grumps** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:01 am

HunterST_BFC wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:37 am
Well this thread will split the messageboard.

What's the point?

It will simply escalate into the usual posters "wanging away" at each other. Pointless. Divisive.
Both sides with no chance of accepting the others views / blind beliefs.

Might as well be a thread on Crisp Flavors

To be honest I thought it was doing ok
Being very selfish I've always voted for the party who looked after me and my family in the jobs we were in. That was always Conservative. I must admit I've not voted in a few of the recent local elections, but have stayed tory in general elections
I can fully understand why people vote differently depending on their circumstances, but even when Labour were in power I'd admit they got somethings right, just like the tories get things wrong. Unfortunately some are so blinded they could never admit the other side were right. Just like football fans really.

Aclaret · Post by **Aclaret** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:10 am

No I havn't changed my mind, Prawn Cocktail for me too.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:25 am

I’ve always voted labour as my views are more aligned to collectivism, however what I really want is a strong Labour Party and a strong Tory party.

If the past few years labour have been a very weak party, poorly led and unable to play the media. That in turn has resulted in a pretty poor Tory party. They didn’t need to be very good to win the election

I can not understand how any Tory is happy with the weakness of the Labour Party. The country needs balance and the stronger the opposition the better the party in power.

I believe the vast majority of people are just off centre right or left. Weak opposition is likely to cause more far right/left governments, which isn’t what most people want

SammyBoy · Post by **SammyBoy** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:39 am

I grew up with Tory leaning parents. We used to get The Mail on Sunday and when I got old enough to read it I remember agreeing with their columnists who were raging about our society which had gone to the dogs (mainly due to New Labour, the EU/immigration and political correctness). I remember my 15 year old self feeling outraged that “we” were getting such a raw deal - by we I mean the white middle classes.

By the time I got to college I’d lost the outrage and was wholly apathetic, very much preoccupied with other things. This continued throughout Uni and I didn’t vote in 2010 when I first became eligible to do so but shortly after that I realised that I now identified much more with Labour and the left of centre and have voted that way ever since.

My parents are still Tories.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:25 am

Wile E Coyote wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:36 am
hopefully, we can move on from personal prosperity , and seek something more worthwhile for the better good of society.
Sounds a bit trite, but if this crisis has taught us anything, then the ability to be inward looking only is a thing o the past.

Prosperity for me meant being able to earn a regular income and putting the food on the table...anything else holidays inc.was a bonus.I personally think TB caused much division amongst working class people....

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:43 am

I was a card carrying member of the Labour Party for over 30 years, and always voted Labour. Tony Blair, despite his mistakes, opened my eyes to how a Labour Party that engaged with big business, instead of fighting it, could do far more for the poor of this country than the old far left.
I first got disillusioned when Ed Miliband stole the leadership. I went on the hustings in that election, listened to all the candidates, David Miliband was the stand out, although there were others that were ok. When it came to voting under the system whoever had the least dropped out, then the candidate with the fewest had their vote transferred. All sounds reasonable, yet David Miliband had the most votes in all 6 rounds until only he and Ed were left. Then the Unions used their block to elect Ed. It might have been 'democratic', but it stank. From then on Ed was a Union puppet. I've nothing against TUs, I've always been a member, and occasionally a representative for the Union, but I think they are there to protect the workers rights, not to run the bloody country. When momentum first reared it's head, the stories of pressure, and threats of deselection of old standing Labour stalwarts, such as Frank Field, then the election of Jeremy Corbyn, it was the final straw.
I believed in Brexit, so did most of the Labour leadership in truth, including JC, but when they came out against it hoping to pick the mood of the country rather than lead it, voting Tory was easy. I'm not a natural Tory, and so far I'm happy with what Boris has done. I'm prepared to give him a chance to show us that he does believe in One Nation Toryism, prepared to see if he does invest in the North.
Would I vote for Labour again, definitely, my social conscience hasn't changed, I still want to do what's best for the country and the less well off, but Labour is going to have to change a hell of a lot before I do.

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:52 am

Colburn a consistent pattern there, a trajectory rightwards as you get older, it is unlikely that you will veer leftwards I imagine.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:08 am

I am yearning for a centrist labour party enshrined in the core beliefs of what labour stand for, not minority this minority that, pressure group this pressure group that etc until that happens I will always look to vote for in the main independent candidates, I voted Tory at last election with a slightly heavy heart however I feel the Tories will move to the centre now the budget showed that and I reckon the chancellor is a really down to earth one nation sort of tory so I might stick with them depending on what Starmer does.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:32 am

The development of my attitude to politics has been broadly similar to those of keith1879.

I'm 66 so was brought up in the Cold War era and that had a big effect on how we saw things. If we thought left wing thoughts we were colluding with the Soviets etc.. We had the Daily Telegraph at home and when I read it I could see it was a bit biased. I could also see that The Guardian was biased the other way. Eventually when I had the choice I bought The Guardian as it challenged my thoughts.

Life also alters views but I've had a pretty comfortable life so haven't had much in the way of negative experiences. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of shortcomings of how things are both in the UK but particularly around the world. These days I subscribe to New Internationalist, a magazine with a Third World perspective. Again I don't agree with it all. Frankly in all communications of ideas you have to be aware that there could be an agenda going on.

My main attitude is one of evolution rather then revolution, stability rather then instability.

In the position we are now, trying to overlook the current virus problem, it is clear to me that the advances in quality of living conditions, food production and medicine has lead to a massive increase in the world population which in turn has lead to the climate crisis (covid-19 can also be blamed on over population). This can't directly be blamed on capitalism or globalisation because the key point is we have failed to control population. And that is surely the biggest failure of any system we have devised up to now.

The rest of this post is a bit radical and dangerous!

So, in my view, over population is the big issue. It's not a case of left or right anymore, or any other options, but rather, what system can manage population and all other factors to give everyone on earth the opportunity to live a fulfilling life but have enough control on individuals to prevent them producing to many children. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to design a satisfactory standard of living, with the flexibility required, calculate the energy and material costs of this standard, and work out how many people could be sustained at this level. There could still be the opportunity for progress but it should be managed.

From this it is clear that the freedoms to do as we please are going to be reduced. This means some sort of uncorruptable authority on a world scale.

And that means disposing of the ideas nations, royals, religion, politics and ethnicity.

Unfortunately logic also suggests that as the population numbers will be limited it may also mean killing the disabled and criminals, in other words those unable or unwilling to fit in with these new concepts.

It won't be a nice world but is todays?

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:40 am

I tend to hold views on the big issues rather than support the big parties, so I like elements of some but not others.

For example, Tory-style views would be self determination, personal responsibility, strong family, belief in the UK as a nation, welfare at risk of being a disincentive to work etc. Labour style views would be belief in strong public spending and an aversion to austerity.

So I wouldn’t change my views on any of that regularly. But I would change my view on who to vote for depending on the big issue of the time. The big issues of the next decade will be how to deal with China, how to trade with the EU and how to deal with all this debt that has been accumulated during lockdown. I wouldn’t even begin to guess who I would vote for in 2024 as it depends on what their stance is on all that, all other things would flow from it.

One other partially related point:

Anybody who has read Superforecasters, the book mentioned casually by Dominic Cummings the other month, knows that it is proven that making brilliant predictions necessitates regularly changing your mind as things come to light. Much of the press have ridiculed government and scientists for changing their mind during this pandemic, but actually that can be a sign of strength. It is no doubt the same in the stuff that this thread refers to. Changing our mind is a good thing.

ICL · Post by **ICL** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:09 am

I’m left of centre and like to think a lot of the country probably is as well. I identify most closely with the Liberal party, but given our voting system I feel my vote doesn’t really count.
I was very impressed with the early Blair government years, but it all went wrong towards the end, as we became to closely aligned with the USA position in the Middle East

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:27 am

CleggHall wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:52 am
Colburn a consistent pattern there, a trajectory rightwards as you get older, it is unlikely that you will veer leftwards I imagine.

Possibly, but I hope not. I got my values from my Dad, as most people do, but he was carved working in the 50's and 60's, times have changed, the values haven't but times have. Many of the far left are still fighting that enemy of the 50's, 60's and 70's. There are still bad employers out there, but there are also some very good ones. The rights workers enjoy today, minimum wage, working hours directives, they might never be perfect, but they're a hell of a lot better than what my Dad was fighting against. There are people on this thread complaining that Tony Blair divided the working classes. What a load of ********. If it's wrong to try and further yourself, own your own home, provide a decent lifestyle for your children, then I'd rather be wrong voting Tory, than right voting Labour.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:36 am

Hipper wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:32 am
The development of my attitude to politics has been broadly similar to those of keith1879.

I'm 66 so was brought up in the Cold War era and that had a big effect on how we saw things. If we thought left wing thoughts we were colluding with the Soviets etc.. We had the Daily Telegraph at home and when I read it I could see it was a bit biased. I could also see that The Guardian was biased the other way. Eventually when I had the choice I bought The Guardian as it challenged my thoughts.

Life also alters views but I've had a pretty comfortable life so haven't had much in the way of negative experiences. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of shortcomings of how things are both in the UK but particularly around the world. These days I subscribe to New Internationalist, a magazine with a Third World perspective. Again I don't agree with it all. Frankly in all communications of ideas you have to be aware that there could be an agenda going on.

My main attitude is one of evolution rather then revolution, stability rather then instability.

In the position we are now, trying to overlook the current virus problem, it is clear to me that the advances in quality of living conditions, food production and medicine has lead to a massive increase in the world population which in turn has lead to the climate crisis (covid-19 can also be blamed on over population). This can't directly be blamed on capitalism or globalisation because the key point is we have failed to control population. And that is surely the biggest failure of any system we have devised up to now.

The rest of this post is a bit radical and dangerous!

So, in my view, over population is the big issue. It's not a case of left or right anymore, or any other options, but rather, what system can manage population and all other factors to give everyone on earth the opportunity to live a fulfilling life but have enough control on individuals to prevent them producing to many children. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to design a satisfactory standard of living, with the flexibility required, calculate the energy and material costs of this standard, and work out how many people could be sustained at this level. There could still be the opportunity for progress but it should be managed.

From this it is clear that the freedoms to do as we please are going to be reduced. This means some sort of uncorruptable authority on a world scale.

And that means disposing of the ideas nations, royals, religion, politics and ethnicity.

Unfortunately logic also suggests that as the population numbers will be limited it may also mean killing the disabled and criminals, in other words those unable or unwilling to fit in with these new concepts.

It won't be a nice world but is todays?

Definitely radical and dangerous, but agree 100% that population control is essential if the planet is to survive. Unless we manage it peacefully, the laws of nature dictate it will take care of itself, that means war and bloodshed. Probably not in our lifetime, but one day.

LordBob · Post by **LordBob** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:43 am

HunterST_BFC wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:37 am
Well this thread will split the messageboard.

What's the point?

It will simply escalate into the usual posters "wanging away" at each other. Pointless. Divisive.
Both sides with no chance of accepting the others views / blind beliefs.

Might as well be a thread on Crisp Flavors

If Carlsberg did sensible posts ... etc, top marks !!

Dinks · Post by **Dinks** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:58 am

Bullabill wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:03 am
Dinks wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:08 am
i will never vote Labour again for as long as i live!
..................................

Have you got a terminal illness Dinks? Never say never.

Im an old man,this current crop of Labour politicians will never return to power for the rest of my life,sad to see but my remaining time will be spent under a Tory government,there simply isnt a credible alternative.

Claretitus · Post by **Claretitus** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:16 pm

When I lived at home with my parents and started work, I voted Labour. ( They were Tories btw ). When I bought my own house, and got married, paying my own way, I started voting Tory, and still do today, aged 60. Will never vote Labour again as long as I breathe. They will always ( to my mind ), be more interested in giving more away than is coming in, and can never balance the books. Hence the note in The Treasury " good luck, there's nothing left", when Brown lost the election. I couldn't run my own life like that, why trust them to ever run the country again?

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:44 pm

Prawn cocktail supporters make me sick. Pickled onion is the only true way. Salt & vinegar is nice, too, and I could live with cheese & onion. Ready salted offers nothing to me. In fact I'd probably rather not vot-... have crisps at all than have ready salted. But those prawn cocktail animals can all die as far as I'm concerned. First they're eating prawn cocktail, next thing they're eating their pets and sacrificing babies.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:47 pm

I would happily bring back capital punishment for the person who decided to try and make crisps taste like prawn cocktail.

nyclaret · Post by **nyclaret** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:48 pm

17% of Tory voters are under the age of 35. 4% under the age of 25. Future generations won’t vote for a Tory government.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:50 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:43 am
I was a card carrying member of the Labour Party for over 30 years, and always voted Labour. Tony Blair, despite his mistakes, opened my eyes to how a Labour Party that engaged with big business, instead of fighting it, could do far more for the poor of this country than the old far left.
I first got disillusioned when Ed Miliband stole the leadership. I went on the hustings in that election, listened to all the candidates, David Miliband was the stand out, although there were others that were ok. When it came to voting under the system whoever had the least dropped out, then the candidate with the fewest had their vote transferred. All sounds reasonable, yet David Miliband had the most votes in all 6 rounds until only he and Ed were left. Then the Unions used their block to elect Ed. It might have been 'democratic', but it stank. From then on Ed was a Union puppet. I've nothing against TUs, I've always been a member, and occasionally a representative for the Union, but I think they are there to protect the workers rights, not to run the bloody country. When momentum first reared it's head, the stories of pressure, and threats of deselection of old standing Labour stalwarts, such as Frank Field, then the election of Jeremy Corbyn, it was the final straw.
I believed in Brexit, so did most of the Labour leadership in truth, including JC, but when they came out against it hoping to pick the mood of the country rather than lead it, voting Tory was easy. I'm not a natural Tory, and so far I'm happy with what Boris has done. I'm prepared to give him a chance to show us that he does believe in One Nation Toryism, prepared to see if he does invest in the North.
Would I vote for Labour again, definitely, my social conscience hasn't changed, I still want to do what's best for the country and the less well off, but Labour is going to have to change a hell of a lot before I do.

Not dissimilar to my upbringing CC,traditional Labour voting family,i voted for Blair in the 97 and 01 elections,abstained in 2005(spoilt ballot) due to the Iraq War mainly,then in 2010 i voted for a minor party as i didn't rate even of them,Brown's heart was in the right place,but the job was just too big for him,Cameron and Clegg were,as history has shown us,both more interested in the limelight,than making any fundamental change to the country(same sex marriage accepted),i was so appalled by the Westminster parties,that in 2015 i voted SNP purely to send a message to the UK parties,this despite being a staunch unionist,and adamant no voter in 2014,then of course the brexit

raised it's head,as an avid leave voter I've found myself with no option but to vote Conservative at the last 2 elections,now that the failed Corbyn experiment has been abandoned,i'm hoping Labour return to their traditional roots,if they do and i'm convinced they're a viable alternative,i may well vote for them in 2024,i certainly don't consider myself welded to the Conservatives,or indeed any other party,i also try and take the individual candidates into account,after all they are who we vote for.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:50 pm

nyclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:48 pm
17% of Tory voters are under the age of 35. 4% under the age of 25. Future generations won’t vote for a Tory government.

I suppose there’s an argument that current labour voters will be more inclined to vote for the tories as they get older.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:56 pm

nyclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:48 pm
17% of Tory voters are under the age of 35. 4% under the age of 25. Future generations won’t vote for a Tory government.

Maybe not,but that's been said for years,the problem for all parties,is young people don't tend to vote for any of them,now with issues such as climate change becoming more prominent,this might change,but any party relying on the youth vote is taking a helluva risk,also we've got an ageing population,and the vast majority of over 60's will stick with the Tories by and large.It's fine for Labour to gain seats with large student populations,but that alone won't get them the keys to Downing Street.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:26 pm

Most younger people traditional are more left wing, as you get older and you learn more about money savings tax investments and pensions interest rates etc you tend to switch to parties who appear to be more fiscally prudent.

Somethingfishy · Post by **Somethingfishy** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:29 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:43 am
I was a card carrying member of the Labour Party for over 30 years, and always voted Labour. Tony Blair, despite his mistakes, opened my eyes to how a Labour Party that engaged with big business, instead of fighting it, could do far more for the poor of this country than the old far left.
I first got disillusioned when Ed Miliband stole the leadership. I went on the hustings in that election, listened to all the candidates, David Miliband was the stand out, although there were others that were ok. When it came to voting under the system whoever had the least dropped out, then the candidate with the fewest had their vote transferred. All sounds reasonable, yet David Miliband had the most votes in all 6 rounds until only he and Ed were left. Then the Unions used their block to elect Ed. It might have been 'democratic', but it stank. From then on Ed was a Union puppet. I've nothing against TUs, I've always been a member, and occasionally a representative for the Union, but I think they are there to protect the workers rights, not to run the bloody country. When momentum first reared it's head, the stories of pressure, and threats of deselection of old standing Labour stalwarts, such as Frank Field, then the election of Jeremy Corbyn, it was the final straw.
I believed in Brexit, so did most of the Labour leadership in truth, including JC, but when they came out against it hoping to pick the mood of the country rather than lead it, voting Tory was easy. I'm not a natural Tory, and so far I'm happy with what Boris has done. I'm prepared to give him a chance to show us that he does believe in One Nation Toryism, prepared to see if he does invest in the North.
Would I vote for Labour again, definitely, my social conscience hasn't changed, I still want to do what's best for the country and the less well off, but Labour is going to have to change a hell of a lot before I do.

I think this sums up my position really well. Always voted Labour but too much has fundamentally gone wrong within the Labour party. They had a chance in 2017 with a Tory party weakened by division and they couldn't organise themselves. Many hardline Labour people commenting it was a good result. It was awful. They had a golden chance to gain power and because of the ineptness of JC and the weakness of his shadow cabinet he blew it.Then their stance on Brexit was a joke from the off. In the end they abandoned their heartland vote in favour of the metropolitan vote and this blew up spectacularly in the last election. They touch the social conscience...they always have done but they just seem to be completely unable to be in touch with the general feeling in the country.
I voted Tory for the first time in the last election. They left me with no option.I thought i would feel dirty...but i don't. Would i go back to Labour? Possibly. They need to change a hell of a lot though to get me back. Sir Keir Starmer is a massive step up from Corbyn in my eyes. It isn't just him though. They need to come back away from the left again..away from the Trade Union and Momentum grip. They have never been electable when in that position. Baffles me why they thought it was a good idea to go that way in the first place.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:49 pm

bfcjg wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:26 pm
Most younger people traditional are more left wing, as you get older and you learn more about money savings tax investments and pensions interest rates etc you tend to switch to parties who appear to be more fiscally prudent.

I dont think the move to the right is just to do with learning and better understanding. I think its more to do with when you are young you have less responsibilities and less to lose so you are more likely to be drawn to leftish ideas as supporting the poor and disadvantaged and voting in the interest of the wider society

As you get older you acquire wealth and have something to lose (and protect in terms of children / grandchildren) so older people tend to vote more for self interest and a party who will protect their wealth

The other interesting point to consider is that it is society that shifts to a more liberal left position and people just by standing still move to the right. A couple of generations a go fighting for things like gay rights and against racism were quite out there positions but now the most conservative of people will support these stances

KateR · Post by **KateR** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:20 pm

I think where and how you grow up influences you're thoughts and the majority in mid teens don't pay all that much attention to politics but you're a bit like a sponge and you hear it all at home even when it's going in one ear and out of the other, so it tends to define a lot of thinking before you actually start to really think about things and make you're own mind up on what you think is right and wrong. My father emigrated when I was 6, my sister a few years older, unfortunately he neglected to take the family with him but did take another family. Consequently at one point growing up in almost abject poverty we had to move in with grandparents, staunch Labour and my memories from that time was a lot of us in a 2 up 2 down and outside toilet plus the working mans club, things like trips to Blackpool being the highlight paid by the club. Approaching Mid teens, mum remarried and a Labour through and through, Older teens I had zero interest in politics and music and moved through college without any knowledge of politics, moved in to the work place and it was union, was not that interested but looked at what was going on with them against a major oil company and it would affect me so took an interest, early 20's Labour leaning but always wanted to understand both sides.

Fast forward, marriage, mortgage, soon followed by first child and struggling Labour supporter, but still not staunch or even that much interested except near election time. Opportunity for a new good job overseas, moved, 2nd child, lot's of different new views from the work force, started me thinking, reading more, trying to understand better pros and cons both sides. 3rd child and voted Tory first time but based on what I perceived to be better for the country not me or my family, had move life wise that money was ok. No great struggle and decided what was the best for the country was best overall for everyone, just my simplistic view, 4th child and move to USA, watch politics here and horrified at the dirty fighting.

Now am still middle of the road, I have zero allegiance to any party or any leader, I will view, listen, watch and learn and still willing to be influenced until the last minute but I remember my grandfather very well, Labour right through him and all his life never willing to listen to the other side, I have met conservatives similar since including my sister that wont listen to anything good coming from the opposition.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:49 pm

nyclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:48 pm
17% of Tory voters are under the age of 35. 4% under the age of 25. Future generations won’t vote for a Tory government.

I don't know how old you are, but as you get older your views change with experience. By the time all those who are under 35 reach under 45, many of them will have started voting for the Tories. The usual reasons are that voting for Labour for 35 years has got you nothing, and at 45 you can start reaping the benefits of your hard work, your own home, car, holidays, kids, and the left start treating you like you've betrayed them.
You also start to look at the poor in a new light. When you are young all that matters is they are poor, and you want to help. As you get older you start to question why are they poor? and normally the answer is in their life choices, not the governments of whatever colour, but their own choices. It isn't a reason to stop helping the poor, but it does have an affect on how you intend to vote.
I can buy into peoples arguments that austerity , and the Tories, don't help the poor, but I'm completely flummoxed by the fact that anyone argues that voting Labour will help the poor.
Scratch that, the previous incumbents of Labour would help the poor. We'll see what Starmer can come up with.

keith1879 · Post by **keith1879** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:14 pm

Some really interesting posts here ....thanks for reading and replying.

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:23 pm

Not changed my mind to the fact that, voting leave will be the best thing this country has done in centuries

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:50 pm

Always voted Labour.
A little reluctantly I must admit for Jeremy and did contemplate not voting.
My politics started from my dad really who was a miner and I remember the miners strike as my first real experience and how much my dad despised Thatcher. I know that how difficult a period this was for us really influenced me. I then studied Economics at A Level and Uni and also Monetary Policy / Banking for years when I started working and I always wanted to believe that Keynes was right and Friedman was wrong again no doubt influenced by the Miners Strike.

As I grew older I began to realise more and more that whoever was in power in reality had little impact on my life. If anything in the industry I was in I did better under right wing governments but that was never going to influence who I voted for or change my mind because I always thought I was in the fortunate position of knowing I was well off compared to others irrespective of who was in power.
So my vote was always based on the principle that voting for Labour would generally mean that there would be a fairer redistribution of wealth in society. I was always happy to pay more in taxes to achieve that as to obviously varying degrees every Labour Party manifesto has an aspiration of achieving this.

I don’t know what it would take for me to ever vote Tory. I’ll never say never because that would be daft and there could be well a single issue election like last time which was so important to me that I’d vote Tory (ouch that hurt typing that !!)

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:11 pm

I've voted for Labour in all the elections I've been eligible to vote in. As a teacher, I think the role of both parties in Education can often be overstated. Labour for example introduced the BSF programme which, okay led to some really good new buildings going up, but has changed the education provision for the worse in Burnley. In my opinion, of course. I actually think education is currently in a much better place, apart from the absolutely disastrous tenure of Michael Gove. So toxic was he, that David Cameron had to move him from the education brief before the 2015 election.

However, it's the injustices of society that cause me to lean towards Labour. I see how much money some of these huge capitalist companies extract from the much poorer people and it makes me extremely uncomfortable. Insurance companies, train companies, energy companies, even universities (although this has been driven by the horrendous tuition fees and sky high interest on them). Prices continue to go up and up, I really dread to think how many people exist in a state of continuous debt. Jeremy Corbyn was the only person who seemed to want to change these injustices, and so I was really enthusiastic about voting for him. It was terribly sad that the rest of the country didn't share that.

So for me, I can't see how I'd vote Tory, because keeping these capitalist companies on side appears to be one of their core principles. I can understand why if they're creating wealth, but they seem totally disinterested in even trying to level the playing field.

nyclaret · Post by **nyclaret** » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:24 am

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:50 pm
I suppose there’s an argument that current labour voters will be more inclined to vote for the tories as they get older.

Maybe you’re right but there’s evidence to suggest that won’t happen this time. People forget the Tories won a good amount of votes from those aged 18-24 in 1979 and 1983. That’s simply not happening now. The gap is getting bigger among women voters too. In 2017, Tories were behind Labour by 55 points among women voters under 30. Are people also forgetting the housing crisis the millennial/gen z generations are facing? They can’t afford to buy a house these days. Where are the signs that’s going to change?