The benefits of reacting decisively in a time of crisis ....

[MalaysiaMo]

Lot in the news at present re # of COVID-19 deaths in US exceeding number of US soldiers killed in Vietnam war.

What doesn't get so much cover is the number of COVID-19 deaths in Vietnam - zero, according to official figures. Despite sharing a border with China & having a population size 30% greater than that UK, the number of infections reported is also low (fewer than 300).

Even if we treat the official data from Vietnam with caution, there is no doubt that Vietnam has done exceptionally well, particularly given its "middle income" status.

Why? Vietnam responded quickly to the warnings ..... implementing a plan based on testing, contact tracing and isolation (i.e. containment) in late January. The Government there is now planning to gently re-open the country's economy. That's good news for the 90 million Vietnamese!

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/as ... s-12689970

Just goes to show that immense comparative wealth isn't everything when you have a bumbling idiot, hamstrung by vested interests, as a leader.

[jackmiggins]

Perchance they had intelligence information, along with many, of 'developments' in China?

[HunterST_BFC]

Perchance they had intelligence information, along with many, of 'developments' in China?

or..

Perchance they were on it asap.
Not bathing in election glory,
had an organised gov'
were not on a holiday
were not using a "lets see what will happen" policy rather than being proactive.
In the name of money.

[jackmiggins]

Think that's what I said?

[Stanbill05]

Whilst of course you’re right, Vietnam used their Army to make parts of their policy work. That is a massive call on British streets. History will probably determine we got it wrong, but success is relative if it involves a complete loss of hard won freedoms.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Lot in the news at present re # of COVID-19 deaths in US exceeding number of US soldiers killed in Vietnam war.

What doesn't get so much cover is the number of COVID-19 deaths in Vietnam - zero, according to official figures. Despite sharing a border with China & having a population size 30% greater than that UK, the number of infections reported is also low (fewer than 300).

Even if we treat the official data from Vietnam with caution, there is no doubt that Vietnam has done exceptionally well, particularly given its "middle income" status.

Why? Vietnam responded quickly to the warnings ..... implementing a plan based on testing, contact tracing and isolation (i.e. containment) in late January. The Government there is now planning to gently re-open the country's economy. That's good news for the 90 million Vietnamese!

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/as ... s-12689970

Just goes to show that immense comparative wealth isn't everything when you have a bumbling idiot, hamstrung by vested interests, as a leader.

Do Germany, Spain and France have a bumbling idiot in charge as well ?

[evensteadiereddie]

I can help you there.
No.

[MalaysiaMo]

Vietnamese Government issued urgent dispatches on outbreak prevention to relevant government agencies on January 16 and to hospitals and clinics nationwide on January 21, all before Vietnam recorded its first case of COVID-19 (23 January) and around about the same time the UK Government was getting its knickers in a twist about whether Big Ben might Bong on Brexit Day (January 31).

Makes you think, doesn't it?

PS I have not seen any reports on the Vietnamese army being involved in anything other than supporting the Government and health providers in organising tests etc.

[Targetman]

Do you mean that same bumbling idiot who got Brexit sorted when no one else could?

[mdd2]

How are deaths recorded in Vietnam compared with the UK?

[tim_noone]

Do you mean that same bumbling idiot who got Brexit sorted when no one else could?

Has it been sorted?

[fatboy47]

Do you mean that same bumbling idiot who got Brexit sorted when no one else could?

priceless

[kentonclaret]

Also, the Czech Republic initiated a lockdown around the 11th May before even a single death due to Covid19 had been recorded in the country. They have only suffered around 235 deaths and are coming out of lockdown.

When the Czech Republic were initiating a lockdown bumbling Boris was pictured attending a big Rugby match and the Cheltenham Festival with over 70k race goers attending was in full swing.

[mdd2]

Also, the Czech Republic initiated a lockdown around the 11th May before even a single death due to Covid19 had been recorded in the country. They have only suffered around 235 deaths and are coming out of lockdown.

When the Czech Republic were initiating a lockdown bumbling Boris was pictured attending a big Rugby match and the Cheltenham Festival with over 70k race goers attending was in full swing.

Always been ahead of the game since 1938 the Czech's but there are only 10 million and they have half our population density-so likely to have a different Ro than here

[Zlatan]

Also, the Czech Republic initiated a lockdown around the 11th May before even a single death due to Covid19 had been recorded in the country. They have only suffered around 235 deaths and are coming out of lockdown.

When the Czech Republic were initiating a lockdown bumbling Boris was pictured attending a big Rugby match and the Cheltenham Festival with over 70k race goers attending was in full swing.

did you mean 11th May...? that cant be right...

[Tribesmen]

How are deaths recorded in Vietnam compared with the UK?

It seems that in Vietnam they have gone down the road of honesty where in the UK it only counts if you died in Ward one in jail .

[tiger76]

Do you mean that same bumbling idiot who got Brexit sorted when no one else could?

When did this happen,i must have missed it.To be clear it's far from sorted.

[RingoMcCartney]

When did this happen,i must have missed it.To be clear it's far from sorted.

Just googled it to save you the bother-

"Withdrawal from the European Union is the legal and political process whereby an EU member state ceases to be a member of the Union. ... The UK left the EU on 31 January 2020 at 23:00 GMT."

Keep well and stay safe.

[tiger76]

Just googled it to save you the bother-

"Withdrawal from the European Union is the legal and political process whereby an EU member state ceases to be a member of the Union. ... The UK left the EU on 31 January 2020 at 23:00 GMT."

Keep well and stay safe.

OK! if your happy it's sorted fair enough,we might as well not bother discussing the future relationship then.

Keep well and stay safe yourself.

[mdd2]

It seems that in Vietnam they have gone down the road of honesty where in the UK it only counts if you died in Ward one in jail .

So you don't know, thanks

[RingoMcCartney]

OK! if your happy it's sorted fair enough,we might as well not bother discussing the future relationship then.

Keep well and stay safe yourself.

You simply asked

When did this happen,i must have missed it.?

I gave you the date.

"Discussing the future relationship " is an entirely different question and one you didn't ask.

Keep well and stay safe, particularly, while moving those goalposts back to their original position.

[evensteadiereddie]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

So much for not hijacking posts...

[jackmiggins]

Bit puzzling how India's figures seem to buck the trend?

[Burnley Ace]

It’s an interesting article on Vietnam on dw.com

Instead of depending on medicine and technology to prevent a coronavirus outbreak, Vietnam's already robust state security apparatus has applied a widespread system of public surveillance, helped along by a well-supplied, and generally respected, military.

Security officials or Communist Party spies can be found on every street and crossing in every neighborhood and in every village. The military is also deploying soldiers and materiel in the fight against coronavirus.
This close surveillance largely keeps anyone from slipping through the net or evading regulations.”

If only we lived in a one party state where we could get the army on the street to enforce a total lockdown etc

[RingoMcCartney]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

So much for not hijacking posts...

I do apologise Your Eminence. I forget this is not a public messageboard. A forum where people can make a post, asking a question relating to the EU. Then subsequently someone else answers that specific question.

Again , I can only apologise profusely, Your Decider of What People Can and Cannot Sayness.

[Quickenthetempo]

It seems that in Vietnam they have gone down the road of honesty where in the UK it only counts if you died in Ward one in jail .

I actually think the opposite. The government are blaming every death on Covid 19 to maximise the shock to the public, once it's all over I wouldn't be surprised to see post mortems done and the other major factor listed as the cause of death. 90% have had other issues.

The actual numbers could be around 3000 or so to make out how well we have coped.

But I'm sure you will agree every country has manipulated numbers to suit their agenda.

[Devils_Advocate]

"When did it happen?" was in response to the claim Brexit is sorted. If all there was to sorting Brexit was officially leaving the EU then yes it is sorted but its not a very high bar to praise Johnson by

If your belief is that sorting Brexit means agreeing the future relationship with the EU and concluding the Transition period so we are no longer paying money to the EU and bound by some of their laws and rules then Brexit is far from sorted

I guess both statements could be correct and its just a case of what value you place on the transition period and trade agreements versus the literal notion of just simply leaving the EU

[keith1879]

I actually think the opposite. The government are blaming every death on Covid 19 to maximise the shock to the public, once it's all over I wouldn't be surprised to see post mortems done and the other major factor listed as the cause of death. 90% have had other issues.

The actual numbers could be around 3000 or so to make out how well we have coped.

But I'm sure you will agree every country has manipulated numbers to suit their agenda.

This won't work...we already have the experts saying that when we come to make judgements the only sensible measure will be all-cause mortality....and we are already seeing notably higher levels than normal in the uk ....here is a world-wide indication of what I am trying to say. And as for the last statement.....I think we need to have some proof before making such a damning judgment. Has Belgium manipulated data to show that they have such a poor deaths per capita ratio for example?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... 19-so-far/

[thomaspaine]

Lot in the news at present re # of COVID-19 deaths in US exceeding number of US soldiers killed in Vietnam war.

What doesn't get so much cover is the number of COVID-19 deaths in Vietnam - zero, according to official figures. Despite sharing a border with China & having a population size 30% greater than that UK, the number of infections reported is also low (fewer than 300).

Even if we treat the official data from Vietnam with caution, there is no doubt that Vietnam has done exceptionally well, particularly given its "middle income" status.

Why? Vietnam responded quickly to the warnings ..... implementing a plan based on testing, contact tracing and isolation (i.e. containment) in late January. The Government there is now planning to gently re-open the country's economy. That's good news for the 90 million Vietnamese!

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/as ... s-12689970

Just goes to show that immense comparative wealth isn't everything when you have a bumbling idiot, hamstrung by vested interests, as a leader.

Spot on mate.

[Burnley Ace]

Spot on mate.

You are comparing a one party communist state who effectively imposed martial law on its citizens to a western society that refuses to follow guidance!!

[Burnley Ace]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.dw.c ... a-52929967

[TVC15]

I actually think the opposite. The government are blaming every death on Covid 19 to maximise the shock to the public, once it's all over I wouldn't be surprised to see post mortems done and the other major factor listed as the cause of death. 90% have had other issues.

The actual numbers could be around 3000 or so to make out how well we have coped.

But I'm sure you will agree every country has manipulated numbers to suit their agenda.

Let me get this right ? You think the government have overstated the deaths in the UK to shock the public ?

Given the deaths in care homes during the recent period are running at double what they were last year and only part of the increase has been attributed to Covid what do you think the rest of the increase is down to ?

When you say 90% have had other issues. Firstly I don’t know where that figure is from but it may be correct - but are you saying you think they have died due to their underlying issues and would have died anyway ?
That’s quite different to the normal medical view that people with underlying issues are more likely to die from Covid because their bodies cannot cope as well with the virus as those without underlying issues.

My view is that the number of deaths in the UK from Covid is significantly understated. That’s a pretty logical view until someone can explain the significant increase in deaths.

[evensteadiereddie]

I do apologise Your Eminence. I forget this is not a public messageboard. A forum where people can make a post, asking a question relating to the EU. Then subsequently someone else answers that specific question.

Again , I can only apologise profusely, Your Decider of What People Can and Cannot Sayness.

You're welcome. I'm delighted you've finally realised what the board is for.

It's Friday, go on lad, get stuck in !

[Tribesmen]

I actually think the opposite. The government are blaming every death on Covid 19 to maximise the shock to the public, once it's all over I wouldn't be surprised to see post mortems done and the other major factor listed as the cause of death. 90% have had other issues.

The actual numbers could be around 3000 or so to make out how well we have coped.

But I'm sure you will agree every country has manipulated numbers to suit their agenda.

Yep spot on with that one most governments will shift the blame, anyway thay can as politics football just keep kicking it down the road .
Took the UK around 2 months to figure in people who died in care homes for goodness sake .
Seems that Norway are one of the few who are honest with thier public .

[Targetman]

When did this happen,i must have missed it.To be clear it's far from sorted.

We left the EU at the end of January so yes you must have missed that!

Just to refresh your memory......many MP's from all parties wanted the country to ignore the majority voters from the referendum ballot and keep the UK within the EU. They tried everything in their powers to do just that and forced the resignation of the Prime Minister.

So the country once again had to go to the ballot box in order to push through the majority democratic decision that we leave the EU as soon as possible.

And guess what....the bumbling idiot won by a country mile, an absolute landslide.

How could millions and millions of people vote for a bumbling idiot? Seems strange doesn't it that all of those people allowed themselves to be hoodwinked by that bumbling idiot?

Even more strange was that the bumbling idiot then managed to take the country out of the EU, something that no one else had been able to do in the previous 3 years.

Beyond belief really that a "bumbling idiot" could do something like this!

As Kevin Keegan would say....."I just luv it, I just really luv it!!

[bfcmik]

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 7april2020
Official all deaths data for the 'peak week' 17.04.2020. Taken from death certificates, hence the 2 week delay.

[Quickenthetempo]

Let me get this right ? You think the government have overstated the deaths in the UK to shock the public ?

Yes, the country, especially London was very slow to go into lockdown. We don't have a forceful Police force and the army isn't an option here.

Given the deaths in care homes during the recent period are running at double what they were last year and only part of the increase has been attributed to Covid what do you think the rest of the increase is down to ?

We will have to wait for the enquiry but there have been reports of less visits with medical staff and a DNR policy in place.

When you say 90% have had other issues. Firstly I don’t know where that figure is from but it may be correct - but are you saying you think they have died due to their underlying issues and would have died anyway ?
That’s quite different to the normal medical view that people with underlying issues are more likely to die from Covid because their bodies cannot cope as well with the virus as those without underlying issues.

It was from the BBC over a week ago.

My view is that the number of deaths in the UK from Covid is significantly understated. That’s a pretty logical view until someone can explain the significant increase in deaths.

Of course you could be right. We won't know for definite until it's all over.

[Tall Paul]

We left the EU at the end of January so yes you must have missed that!

Just to refresh your memory......many MP's from all parties wanted the country to ignore the majority voters from the referendum ballot and keep the UK within the EU. They tried everything in their powers to do just that and forced the resignation of the Prime Minister.

So the country once again had to go to the ballot box in order to push through the majority democratic decision that we leave the EU as soon as possible.

And guess what....the bumbling idiot won by a country mile, an absolute landslide.

How could millions and millions of people vote for a bumbling idiot? Seems strange doesn't it that all of those people allowed themselves to be hoodwinked by that bumbling idiot?

Even more strange was that the bumbling idiot then managed to take the country out of the EU, something that no one else had been able to do in the previous 3 years.

Beyond belief really that a "bumbling idiot" could do something like this!

As Kevin Keegan would say....."I just luv it, I just really luv it!!

If it's sorted, you'll be happy for us to carry on indefinitely as we are now?

[RingoMcCartney]

You're welcome. I'm delighted you've finally realised what the board is for.

It's Friday, go on lad, get stuck in !

I already had realised, despite, and long before, your intervention that proved you hadn't. An intervention , by the way that "hijacked" my conversation with Tiger76. For which you said-

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

So much for not hijacking posts...

So the very thing you attempted to accuse me of, you did yourself!




Check mate.

[RingoMcCartney]

"When did it happen?" was in response to the claim Brexit is sorted. If all there was to sorting Brexit was officially leaving the EU then yes it is sorted but its not a very high bar to praise Johnson by

If your belief is that sorting Brexit means agreeing the future relationship with the EU and concluding the Transition period so we are no longer paying money to the EU and bound by some of their laws and rules then Brexit is far from sorted

I guess both statements could be correct and its just a case of what value you place on the transition period and trade agreements versus the literal notion of just simply leaving the EU

Question on the 2016 EU referendum ballot paper-

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

Remain □

Leave □

( No , unless certain criteria has been met regarding "future relationships." No small print. No T's and C's. )

"Leave" won.

The UK left the EU on 31 January 2020 at 23:00 GMT.

[Devils_Advocate]

Question on the 2016 EU referendum ballot paper-

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

Remain □

Leave □

( No , unless certain criteria has been met regarding "future relationships." No small print. No T's and C's. )

"Leave" won.

The UK left the EU on 31 January 2020 at 23:00 GMT.

There was no need to quote me to talk to yourself, it doesn't make you look any less insane

[RingoMcCartney]

There was no need to quote me to talk to yourself, it doesn't make you look any less insane

You post was clearly aimed at me given the content of both our respective posts to be fair. And your above , most recent post, doesn't make me any less correct.



The UK left the EU on 31 January 2020 at 23:00 GMT.

[RingoMcCartney]

Stay safe and keep well one and all

[Devils_Advocate]

You post was clearly aimed at me given the content of both our respective posts to be fair. And your above , most recent post, doesn't make me any less correct.



The UK left the EU on 31 January 2020 at 23:00 GMT.

It was but your post from what I can make out did not attempt to discuss or counter any of the points Id made in my post so I can only assume that you were just using it to parrot your own point to yourself.

Now if you'd like to engage with any of the specific points I raised in my post then I'd be happy to discuss with you but if you want to just trumpet meaningless waffle then continue to talk to yourself

[IanMcL]

The deaths outside hospital are all very iffy.

It turns out that Drs are issuing death carts with the reason for death and then adding, 'possible covid_19'.

This, evidently, saves the certificate having to be counter signed, or an autopsy. Some stuff like that. Ok at that moment but alters the statistics dramatically.

[IanMcL]

As for Vietnam, perhaps the Napalm is still active and zapped the virus on entry.

I think we should test this theory in Washington, to protect the US president!

[mdd2]

Has always been the case Ian. Dangerous to rely on Death certification apart from it being highly likely the person has indeed died. The process is inaccurate and even the Coroner will strive to have a doctor complete certification where possible. Even after an autopsy and Inquisition by the Coroner the death certificate may be wrong.
I think the 14 day rule still applies but I think all deaths in a care home need discussions, but not sure on that. As the chief medical officer has stated, a better handle on this will come from excess deaths and of course even that is inaccurate as death rates fluctuate even over the same period of months over the years. If there are excess deaths (as there are presently) one should follow up as later there should be (if there is as we seem to be seeing a large excess of deaths) a reduction in deaths over a period as only James Bond lived twice.
With 600,000 deaths/annum and more in winter than summer an average over the year is over 1600/day.As care homes have been hit hard with this and the average life expectancy in a Nursing home used to be around 2 years one may see NH deaths fall for a time
I think there may have been fewer winter deaths this year in absence of Covid as I think there has been less flu around-but again the flu data are flawed as the numbers are based upon those cases where there have been flu like symptoms reported. Few if any in GP land used to get swobbed for flu-only in hospitals to avoid admissions for flu and spreading it around and of course many with flu never seek medical attention.

[AndrewJB]

We left the EU at the end of January so yes you must have missed that!

Just to refresh your memory......many MP's from all parties wanted the country to ignore the majority voters from the referendum ballot and keep the UK within the EU. They tried everything in their powers to do just that and forced the resignation of the Prime Minister.

So the country once again had to go to the ballot box in order to push through the majority democratic decision that we leave the EU as soon as possible.

And guess what....the bumbling idiot won by a country mile, an absolute landslide.

How could millions and millions of people vote for a bumbling idiot? Seems strange doesn't it that all of those people allowed themselves to be hoodwinked by that bumbling idiot?

Even more strange was that the bumbling idiot then managed to take the country out of the EU, something that no one else had been able to do in the previous 3 years.

Beyond belief really that a "bumbling idiot" could do something like this!

As Kevin Keegan would say....."I just luv it, I just really luv it!!

This narrative has all the simplicity of a fairy tale. The real world is a lot more complex, and our future relationship with the EU will hold the key to our future prosperity. In a collision between the real and that of make believe, which do you think will shatter?

[Colburn_Claret]

It would be interesting to know the death rates for all the underlying health issues compared to previous years.
I suspect, but don't know, that these figures will have fallen sharply whilst Covid 19 is soaring. There is no doubt that many of the people who have died of Covid 19, would have died naturally without Covid. I'm not trying to belittle the crisis, just find a realistic assessment of where we stand.
Comparisons with Vietnam, or any other country, is pointless.
Unless you have the same people, using the same yardstick, then they are always going to vary massively, therefore abandoning our own measures in favour of someone else's would also be pointless.

[mdd2]

Spot on. let's get on with our problems and reflect later on where nations got it wrong. No two Nations are the same both genetically, environmentally or economically